EPTAn additional something people should take from this is that companies/orgs taking advantage of workers regardless of what industry is a very real issue. They use internal pressure, financial pressure, legal pressure and other tactics to prevent the public from hearing about their wrongdoings. This is an esports team doing this. Now think about how much more pressure would be applied if it were a company like amazon, Facebook and the like. This isn’t the dark side of just esports, it’s the dark side of company power, and their ability to financially/legally pressure the public speech of those harmed by them.
Mkers: Payment Withhold Dispute - Page 6
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Official response from Mkers: https://tl.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=27509623 The resolution: https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/553531-mkers-payment-withhold-dispute?page=11#205 Mkers’ response to the resolution: https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/553531-mkers-payment-withhold-dispute?page=11#216 | ||
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TentativePanda
United States800 Posts
An additional something people should take from this is that companies/orgs taking advantage of workers regardless of what industry is a very real issue. They use internal pressure, financial pressure, legal pressure and other tactics to prevent the public from hearing about their wrongdoings. This is an esports team doing this. Now think about how much more pressure would be applied if it were a company like amazon, Facebook and the like. This isn’t the dark side of just esports, it’s the dark side of company power, and their ability to financially/legally pressure the public speech of those harmed by them. | ||
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DomeGetta
480 Posts
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bela.mervado
Hungary395 Posts
fuck off mkers | ||
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Boggyb
2855 Posts
On December 10 2019 04:10 TentativePanda wrote: Goddamn I love seeing the whole sc2 community go in on them An additional something people should take from this is that companies/orgs taking advantage of workers regardless of what industry is a very real issue. They use internal pressure, financial pressure, legal pressure and other tactics to prevent the public from hearing about their wrongdoings. This is an esports team doing this. Now think about how much more pressure would be applied if it were a company like amazon, Facebook and the like. This isn’t the dark side of just esports, it’s the dark side of company power, and their ability to financially/legally pressure the public speech of those harmed by them. Calm down there, Karl. While MKERS response was incredibly tone deaf and unprofessional, the team owners aren't sitting on yachts eating veal and caviar while simultaneously not paying taxes yet forcing their employees to receive government assistance to survive, and if they are, that's not because of Esports money. Esports teams are with few exceptions not profitable at all. Most of them burn their seed cash while paying player salaries divorced of reality. These companies are not charities. The owners took a gamble and lost. The biggest beneficiaries are the players and the game publishers. MKERS acting like assholes publicly is a product of the fact that being a brand is one of the only ways to monetize the team and a player speaking out threatens that. | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10191 Posts
On December 07 2019 22:34 Drusas_ wrote: This was hard to read, sorry Nerchio. It seems like the Wild West era of e-sports still lingers on. The legal field is doing their best to try to correct these things right now. ESG law is the first primary dedicated law firm for esports that was founded a few years ago, and legal positions in the esports scene is growing. hopefully, within a few years the groundwork for everything will be set and things like this won't be able to happen anymore. | ||
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Boggyb
2855 Posts
On December 10 2019 05:06 FlaShFTW wrote: The legal field is doing their best to try to correct these things right now. ESG law is the first primary dedicated law firm for esports that was founded a few years ago, and legal positions in the esports scene is growing. hopefully, within a few years the groundwork for everything will be set and things like this won't be able to happen anymore. I feel like things like this happen generally because a team is facing financial difficulties, not malfeasance. In that situation, lawyers would just push teams into insolvency faster. | ||
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stilt
France2750 Posts
Btw my english is pretty bad but between the lines, they admit they didn't pay him right ? | ||
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TentativePanda
United States800 Posts
On December 10 2019 04:56 Boggyb wrote: Calm down there, Karl. While MKERS response was incredibly tone deaf and unprofessional, the team owners aren't sitting on yachts eating veal and caviar while simultaneously not paying taxes yet forcing their employees to receive government assistance to survive, and if they are, that's not because of Esports money. Esports teams are with few exceptions not profitable at all. Most of them burn their seed cash while paying player salaries divorced of reality. These companies are not charities. The owners took a gamble and lost. The biggest beneficiaries are the players and the game publishers. MKERS acting like assholes publicly is a product of the fact that being a brand is one of the only ways to monetize the team and a player speaking out threatens that. If you reread what I posted you’d realize your response to it makes no sense. I was literally emphasizing that this is the behavior of an esports org to point out companies/orgs/whatever with waaay more financial and legal power get away with much worse. Generally, I have a ton of respect for esports orgs for the reasons you pointed out - they are not intended to make a ton of money, instead being pivotal in the development of the esports scene. Your second paragraph confuses me more, somehow. Are you saying players shouldnt speak out against the negation of contract agreements because it would threaten the team/org? | ||
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ASoo
2864 Posts
On December 10 2019 05:24 stilt wrote: Btw my english is pretty bad but between the lines, they admit they didn't pay him right ? Yeah. I mean, they don't come right out and say it, but if they had payed him they probably would have said "we payed him" instead of "we acknowledge his statements and also fuck him for telling on us." I'd say it's pretty fair to read "we totally didn't pay him" in between those lines. | ||
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KalWarkov
Germany4126 Posts
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On December 10 2019 05:53 ASoo wrote: Yeah. I mean, they don't come right out and say it, but if they had payed him they probably would have said "we payed him" instead of "we acknowledge his statements and also fuck him for telling on us." I'd say it's pretty fair to read "we totally didn't pay him" in between those lines. I read it essentialy as "he didn't send us his invoice so maybe he wasn't payed when he needed too we need to check" I mean, in fairness to them, that could be true (well probably not since Nerchio complained) but at least it could just be an accounting or communication problems. But then there's the second part of the statement that essentially can be read as: "Fuck you" | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25610 Posts
On December 10 2019 05:22 Boggyb wrote: I feel like things like this happen generally because a team is facing financial difficulties, not malfeasance. In that situation, lawyers would just push teams into insolvency faster. eSports is full of both enthusiastic hobbyists whose business acumen doesn’t match their passion, and said types of people inhabit both the playerbase, tournament organisation and casting spheres of eSports. For those with a sufficient lack of scruples it’s a space ripe for exploiting people too. In cases of both malfeasance or incompetence having some potential barriers be they unions, regulatory orgs or dedicated legal services can’t be a bad thing IMO | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
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BabelFish1
186 Posts
Why couldn't you have just said "While we disagree with how Nerchio has brought up this issue, we take all issues regarding the payment to employees very, very seriously and are looking into this issue." | ||
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BabelFish1
186 Posts
On December 10 2019 06:07 Nakajin wrote: I read it essentialy as "he didn't send us his invoice so maybe he wasn't payed when he needed too we need to check" I mean, in fairness to them, that could be true (well probably not since Nerchio complained) but at least it could just be an accounting or communication problems. But then there's the second part of the statement that essentially can be read as: "Fuck you" My issue with that is if the issue was literally just needing a receipt, then why did this get so convoluted? I imagine that conversation would go something like this Nerchio "Hey, I didn't get paid or reimbursed for X, Y and Z events" MKers "Oh, sorry about that! We need receipts to reimburse you for travel and logging expenses, just keep in mind if you chose to stay at a 5* resort and order a bottle of 18yr Glennfiddich, those kind of costs are things Mkers can't reimburse you for. I'll immediately look into your missing pay. You should hear back from me within 2 business days regarding the last bit." | ||
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Kriasrub
16 Posts
... but according to the statement (next to all the bullshit in there) they kinda say that Nerchio has never been able to bring forward the proofs of what had been missing. If that's the case (and again: i don't think it is, but the possibility can't be ruled out completely), that's a reasonable point and a huge problem on Nerchio's side, | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On December 10 2019 06:59 Kriasrub wrote: To make something very clear: I'm not taking the team's site here. The statement is beyond horrible and insulting and should have never been written that way. Also, I'm totally on board to - in doubt . rather believe the player over the team.... ... but according to the statement (next to all the bullshit in there) they kinda say that Nerchio has never been able to bring forward the proofs of what had been missing. If that's the case (and again: i don't think it is, but the possibility can't be ruled out completely), that's a reasonable point and a huge problem on Nerchio's side, They dont say that tho, do they? They insinuate there could have been problems of this kind in the past, either with Nerchio or in general with other players, and that s it. And since Nerchio specifically complained about how he couldnt reserve hotel rooms and flights in time (to save money) because of Mkers were unresponsive, i highly, highly doubt it's a problem of missing receipts. On December 07 2019 22:18 Nerchio wrote: Before signing with Mkers we agreed that all main Starcraft 2 events travel and accommodation will be paid by the team (if agreed beforehand) and everything went smooth in those regards only for the first event under the contract – IEM Katowice 2019. After that I tried to contact the organization to prepare the accommodation and travel for WCS Spring ahead of time so we would get cheaper flights as well as hotel. Very often time is of the essence in this matter because hotels close to the tournament venue are usually booked really fast or prices skyrocket and you unnecessarily have to overpay. But it might be just matter of convenience. For WCS Summer and WCS Spring tournament organizer required players to confirm their participation by sending your flight tickets and hotel booking around 1 week before the tournament started. The biggest problem is that Mkers organization never responded to me before WCS Spring and I was finally forced to book everything myself at the last moment before the tournament (less than 1 week) or I would be risking withdrawal from the tournament. Plus salaries are not invoiced, if you're employed by an organization/ company. You get paid based on ur contract. He was on a few teams before Mkers, he's been around forever, been a pro since the WoL days, it's just so unlikely he maneuvered all these things well up until now, and he suddenly forgot how reimbursements and contracts work, and caused tones of undue headaches for the org. Not impossible, but you know, simplest explanation is often the right one. Mkers is just a shitty team. I cheked their wiki page now, they have incredible fluctuation, several players are joining and leaving in a year, some left within a week of signing. | ||
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Snakestyle11
191 Posts
"Hell yes this sounds awesome, that will teach this nerchio guy !" Mornings after... "...shit?" Poor showtime must not be enjoying this. Mkers pretty much just commited PR suicide. Sponsors will withdraw for sure, bankrupcy inc, this team is done lol. Really hope the big boss of MKers is in charge of twitter, else they will be so pissed at the person in charge of twitter. They just ruined their company. Who will wanna do business with them after this? | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On December 10 2019 07:09 Snakestyle11 wrote: Lmao, would love to be in the head of the person writing this. "Hell yes this sounds awesome, that will teach this nerchio guy !" Mornings after... "...shit?" Poor showtime must not be enjoying this. Mkers pretty much just commited PR suicide. Sponsors will withdraw for sure, bankrupcy inc, this team is done lol. Really hope the big boss of MKers is in charge of twitter, else they will be so pissed at the person in charge of twitter. They just ruined their company. Who will wanna do business with them after this? Not sure about that. Depends on how important SC2 is for them, probably not very. Depends how strong they are, can some bad PR do that much dmg, if they otherwise stand on strong legs, then most likely no. I mean the worst PR suicide i've seen in the online/ gaming world was Roll20 (online tabletop kinda thing), and they're still around. They wrote history, 2nd most down-voted post in reddit history etc. And i agree this is bad, but that was way way way worse, and yet, they didnt go bankrupt | ||
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Snakestyle11
191 Posts
On December 10 2019 07:16 Geo.Rion wrote: Not sure about that. Depends on how important SC2 is for them, probably not very. Depends how strong they are, can some bad PR do that much dmg, if they otherwise stand on strong legs, then most likely no. I mean the worst PR suicide i've seen in the online/ gaming world was Roll20 (online tabletop kinda thing), and they're still around. They wrote history, 2nd most down-voted post in reddit history etc. And i agree this is bad, but that was way way way worse, and yet, they didnt go bankrupt Yea I exaggerated for sure.. I just feel like this was so stupid...childish... | ||
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