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On September 29 2019 16:14 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2019 13:41 MockHamill wrote:
I think a supply increase would be a good idea. It would give a downside to massing the unit.
Then after Blizzcon they could look at nerfing neural. As a zerg I think this is probably the best way to keep infestor strong enough in midgame but less potent in lategame. Zerg needs strong infestors to fight air based armies and 3 instead of 2 supply would be a good solution VS mass infestors. As for nydus: not sure if it is too strong. Both serral and rogue are talking about lategame zerg op not in midgame. If nydus is too strong I guess increase build time slightly so you can react better could be good. But please don't trash it or Z won't be able to harass bases again.
It seems a wise decision for Blizzcon.. Hope your changes will be applied.
To me, there s a reccuring problem with creep, ... Is the mid game really played in XvZ ?
ahahah,.. I mean, at pro level, except endgame there s nothing else..
I feel creep tumors not funs at all Blizzard, when i watch pro games in XvZ, i m not satisfied cause i could skip the 10 first minutes, cause all terran players resigned to make "all-in / timing push", and protoss go endgame... you can t struggle against 300 tumors which aren t visible !!
Blizz, You could increase their armor and health, make them visible... hell... Of course, you can modify their spread disparition, but give a try with some maps dedicated to this, I promiss i will make them if i have enought time..
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Respect to Rogue for telling it like it is even if it would have been better for him to say nothing at all.
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Zerg being imba gives us foreigner champions so it's not getting changed anytime soon. Hopefully the Rogue vs Serral finals at blizzcon will be watchable.
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Canada8989 Posts
On September 29 2019 20:41 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2019 19:36 Mun_Su wrote:
Big props to him for admiting that; will Blizzard move accordingly or will we have a poor blizzcon? The main reason it's that way is because blizzard moved in response to illegitimate / out of proportion whine from T/Z players some months ago. There's objectively more balance whine and more popular balance whine coming out of those races than from P and it's been wrongly taken as an actual statistical problem.
Well tvp is much better than it has been in a long time IMO no mass proxy bullshit and no getting roll over in the late game. I feel it's pretty 50/50, or at least it's close enough that it can go back even with a bit more practice or other map.
I don't hate tvz either, it feel like we haven't yet found the end of the possibility of BC oppening and there is still a lot of Starcraft to play before getting lock down by infestor.
pvz is a broken pile of shit.
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On September 29 2019 11:02 Pangpootata wrote:If Rogue were a TL poster he would have been banned for balance whine 
As he should be. After having gone through TL forced reeducation, I have realized that the game has never been imbalanced and never will be. When Zerg players come out of the wood works to win tournament after tournament after tournament, it is because they decided to work harder than all the lazy Terran and Protoss players. Anyone who doesn't realize that must be purged with extreme prejudice.
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Maybe that festor nydus play seems a bit imba, but honestly, Trap got outplayed with superior strategies by a better player.
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On September 29 2019 21:38 Fango wrote:
Zerg being imba gives us foreigner champions so it's not getting changed anytime soon. Hopefully the Rogue vs Serral finals at blizzcon will be watchable.
We had a foreigner champion before Zerg were imba.
There will be 16 Zerg at BlizzCon as everyone knows and
considering Reynor's prowess in ZvZ we may have him against Serral at BlizzCon in the finals, who told you Rogue is better at the matchup?
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On September 29 2019 11:02 Pangpootata wrote:If Rogue were a TL poster he would have been banned for balance whine
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Terran players, watch and learn
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On September 29 2019 20:42 True_Spike wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2019 20:19 LUK_21 wrote:
Maru wins 5 gslwith terran, all is gud. Rogue wins1time with zerg, clearly its super op and imbalanced Kappa Last year was way more diverse in terms of races that did well and the large skew in balance was mostly (though not entirely) Serral's doing. Maru was literally the only terran player to win any premier tournament in 2018. There were 12 WCS Circuit/Korea/Global tournaments last year. 7 were won by zerg (6x Serral, 1x Rogue), 3 by terran (all Maru), 2 by protoss (Stats and Classic). Out of the 24 finalists 9 were zerg, 11 were protoss and 4 (!) were terran. There were 12 WCS Circuit/Korea/Global tournaments this year (so far, 2 more coming) and 8 of them were won by a zerg (3x Serral, 2x Raynor, 1x Soo, 1x Dark, 1x Rogue), 3 by protoss (1x Stats, 1x Neeb, 1x Classic) and 1 by terran (1x Maru). Out of the 24 finalists 14 were zerg, 7 were protoss and 3 (!) were terran.
Pretty sick stats
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not only balance, maybe even not balance is the main issue, zerg is easier mechanically, also rapid fire abuse favors zerg more than other 2.
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problem with balance in starcraft is it's too mechanically feasible to reach a point where becoming better mechanically will yield so little reward relative to the significance of balance
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On September 29 2019 21:55 NotSoHappy wrote:
Maybe that festor nydus play seems a bit imba, but honestly, Trap got outplayed with superior strategies by a better player.
^^this
I really don't think we should base race-balancing on shit play, but rather on high-level play, which Trap's was definitely not.
At the same time, ZvP is Rogue's best matchup.
Looking at Aligulac's Balance Report graphs it's easy to see all 3 races being basically tied together currently.
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Bisutopia19329 Posts
At what patch made zerg this powerful in the late game or has it always been this strong in LoTV? Wasn't Zerg essentially the same in 2018? I'm just curious if it took since LoTV release for Zerg to find its true potential and it had been there the whole time.
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On September 29 2019 23:59 BisuDagger wrote:
At what patch made zerg this powerful in the late game or has it always been this strong in LoTV? Wasn't Zerg essentially the same in 2018? I'm just curious if it took since LoTV release for Zerg to find its true potential and it had been there the whole time.
Pretty sure the infestor got buffed at the end of last year.
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On September 29 2019 20:42 True_Spike wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2019 20:19 LUK_21 wrote:
Maru wins 5 gslwith terran, all is gud. Rogue wins1time with zerg, clearly its super op and imbalanced Kappa Last year was way more diverse in terms of races that did well and the large skew in balance was mostly (though not entirely) Serral's doing. Maru was literally the only terran player to win any premier tournament in 2018. There were 12 WCS Circuit/Korea/Global tournaments last year. 7 were won by zerg (6x Serral, 1x Rogue), 3 by terran (all Maru), 2 by protoss (Stats and Classic). Out of the 24 finalists 9 were zerg, 11 were protoss and 4 (!) were terran. There were 12 WCS Circuit/Korea/Global tournaments this year (so far, 2 more coming) and 8 of them were won by a zerg (3x Serral, 2x Raynor, 1x Soo, 1x Dark, 1x Rogue), 3 by protoss (1x Stats, 1x Neeb, 1x Classic) and 1 by terran (1x Maru). Out of the 24 finalists 14 were zerg, 7 were protoss and 3 (!) were terran.
 Premier Tournaments
Can look at it however you please but if you organise by prize pool, you can see Protoss haven't won a big tournament. Since start of 2018 Protoss have only won tournaments with a prize pool of less than 30k and WCS America (not as competitive). As well as 2nd place finishes.
Out of the 22 biggest tournaments (based on prize pool) since the start of 2018 Protoss have not won any .(intentionally leaving out WCS America where Neeb beat Scarlet once).
Wins out of the 22 Tournements with a prize pool over 30k since start of 2018:
For Protoss: 0 Wins
For Terran: 6 Wins
Maru: (WESG in 2018), (2018 GSL S1),(2018 GSL S2),(2018 GSL S3 vs TY in final), (2019 GSL S1)
Innovation: (WESG in 2019)
For Zerg: 16 Wins
Serral: (2018 WCS Global Finals), (2018 WCS 1), (WCS 2), (WCS 3), (WCS 4 vs Reynor in final), (2018 GSL v world),
(2019 GSL v World vs Elazer in final), (2019 WCS Spring), (2019 WCS Fall vs Reynor in final)
Reynor: (2019 WCS Winter vs Serral in final), (2019 WCS Summer vs Serral in final)
Rogue: (IEM XII World Championship), (2019 GSL S3)
soO: (IEM XIII Katowice)
Dark: (2019 GSL S2)
Scarlet: (IEM XII PyeongChang)
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On September 29 2019 23:59 BisuDagger wrote:
At what patch made zerg this powerful in the late game or has it always been this strong in LoTV? Wasn't Zerg essentially the same in 2018? I'm just curious if it took since LoTV release for Zerg to find its true potential and it had been there the whole time.
the current mappool sucks for tvz and last patch ruined pvz midgame
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On September 29 2019 23:59 BisuDagger wrote:
At what patch made zerg this powerful in the late game or has it always been this strong in LoTV? Wasn't Zerg essentially the same in 2018? I'm just curious if it took since LoTV release for Zerg to find its true potential and it had been there the
whole time.
heavy zerg fafoured mappool
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France12911 Posts
On September 30 2019 00:03 paddyz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2019 20:42 True_Spike wrote:On September 29 2019 20:19 LUK_21 wrote:
Maru wins 5 gslwith terran, all is gud. Rogue wins1time with zerg, clearly its super op and imbalanced Kappa Last year was way more diverse in terms of races that did well and the large skew in balance was mostly (though not entirely) Serral's doing. Maru was literally the only terran player to win any premier tournament in 2018. There were 12 WCS Circuit/Korea/Global tournaments last year. 7 were won by zerg (6x Serral, 1x Rogue), 3 by terran (all Maru), 2 by protoss (Stats and Classic). Out of the 24 finalists 9 were zerg, 11 were protoss and 4 (!) were terran. There were 12 WCS Circuit/Korea/Global tournaments this year (so far, 2 more coming) and 8 of them were won by a zerg (3x Serral, 2x Raynor, 1x Soo, 1x Dark, 1x Rogue), 3 by protoss (1x Stats, 1x Neeb, 1x Classic) and 1 by terran (1x Maru). Out of the 24 finalists 14 were zerg, 7 were protoss and 3 (!) were terran. Premier TournamentsCan look at it however you please but if you organise by prize pool, you can see Protoss haven't won a big tournament. Since start of 2018 Protoss have only won tournaments with a prize pool of less than 30k and WCS America (not as competitive). As well as 2nd place finishes. Out of the 22 biggest tournaments (based on prize pool) since the start of 2018 Protoss have not won any .(intentionally leaving out WCS America where Neeb beat Scarlet once). Wins out of the 22 Tournements with a prize pool over 30k since start of 2018: For Protoss: 0 WinsFor Terran: 6 Wins Maru: (WESG in 2018), (2018 GSL S1),(2018 GSL S2),(2018 GSL S3 vs TY in final), (2019 GSL S1) Innovation: (WESG in 2019) For Zerg: 16 WinsSerral: (2018 WCS Global Finals), (2018 WCS 1), (WCS 2), (WCS 3), (WCS 4 vs Reynor in final), (2018 GSL v world), (2019 GSL v World vs Elazer in final), (2019 WCS Spring), (2019 WCS Fall vs Reynor in final) Reynor: (2019 WCS Winter vs Serral in final), (2019 WCS Summer vs Serral in final) Rogue: (IEM XII World Championship), (2019 GSL S3) soO: (IEM XIII Katowice) Dark: (2019 GSL S2) Scarlet: (IEM XII PyeongChang)
Protoss players made more money than Terran players in 2018, in spite of Maru carrying the whole race on his back in term of results.
Props to Rogue for telling things like they are, but I don’t think blizzard will patch anything before blizzcon.
Maybe we could have a new map pool time tho?
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Wow such honesty from Rogue, didn't expect this. RIP Balance Team.
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EPT
