EPTCommunity Update: July 16th 2019 - Page 7
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RandomAccount#399514
Spain53 Posts
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Dedraterllaerau
113 Posts
On July 18 2019 03:28 deacon.frost wrote: Maybe, maybe not. But Protoss are dominating the field, they just cannot win a tournament except the ST. But we had some heavy P dominated tournaments... We had 1 single P dominated tournament ONE. | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2663 Posts
On July 18 2019 07:12 Dedraterllaerau wrote: We had 1 single P dominated tournament ONE.  2019 AfreecaTV GSL Super Tournament 12019 Global StarCraft II League Season 2/Code SAnd not quite toss dominated but one were T got royaly fucked up. IEM Season XIII - Katowice | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On July 18 2019 07:12 Dedraterllaerau wrote: We had 1 single P dominated tournament ONE. If you cant be bothered to do the research then ask, don't state clearly false information as fact. First one was start of march, we had IEM katawice, we had 6 protoss in round 12 and 4 in round of 8. Sure looking at the groups and the results its not that surprising, we are still talking 50% of the bracket for ro12 and ro8 being protoss. Its also the start of the trend. Super tournament saw only 2 terrans in RO16, mainly due to to PvT if you check the qualifiers. In the ro8 there were 7 protoss. GSL season 2 had 5 protoss in RO8 and 3 in RO4. Protoss have been dominating the brackets and qualifiers for the last three mainly korean tournaments, the latest season 3 GSL is bucking the trend. In WESG and HSC were lots of foreigners attend we also haven't seen protoss domination, in general protoss seems to only over achive in korea. Its a fact korean tournaments have been dominated by protoss for the last 3 tournaments, (not won by though). HOWEVER while that is a fact it is also a fact that we never saw these results in the foreigner circuits and the trend even in korea has been broken in GSL season 3. Therefore I do agree protoss in general does not need a nerf because the problem has been figured out and the meta has shifted. Bullshit like wp should still be fixed and changes like stim and ghost will go a long way to make the game better in the long run I think. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On July 18 2019 07:59 Lexender wrote: 2019 AfreecaTV GSL Super Tournament 12019 Global StarCraft II League Season 2/Code SAnd not quite toss dominated but one were T got royaly fucked up. https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/IEM_Season_XIII_-_Katowice Katowice has nothing to do with Protoss domination, Terran did terribly but that didn't happen again. Super Tournament was indeed a Protossfest(weirdly enough, with a PvT final) while Code S S2 2019 had above average Protoss representation leading to the first Zerg victory in four years: so op! | ||
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Z3nith
485 Posts
On July 18 2019 08:05 Xain0n wrote: Katowice has nothing to do with Protoss domination, Terran did terribly but that didn't happen again. Super Tournament was indeed a Protossfest(weirdly enough, with a PvT final) while Code S S2 2019 had above average Protoss representation leading to the first Zerg victory in four years: so op! Also worth pointing out that almost all of the terrans knocked out in Katowice were knocked out by Zerg rather than Protoss. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27363 Posts
On July 18 2019 08:12 Z3nith wrote: Also worth pointing out that almost all of the terrans knocked out in Katowice were knocked out by Zerg rather than Protoss. Yeah, even last Code S, Maru was knocked out by a T, an unfortunate consequence of the two Terrans losing to a Protoss and a Zerg respectively in their opening matches. Most of the morning I saw was almost solely focused on bashing Patience and moaning about Protoss. Code S has more good Protoss in it, assuming they’re in shape, it’s a small pool of talent so a little skew will have a big effect season after season. Hopefully this trend is bucked by some of the returning military guys getting back into tip top shape. Fantasy is gradually improving all the time, Dream is back and was a real talent and showed flashes of that. Maybe Taeja and Bomber step up, DRG returns to former glory, or guys like Ragnarok make that step up to making deep runs that Trap and Hurricane have managed. Hopefully anyway, think players getting back in shape and bridging the obvious gap in tiers in Code S would be great for the tournament. I’m not sure if I’m the man to do this, lacking both patience and competence I think it would be worthwhile to use Aligulac predictions and ratings and comb through Code S results for example, tot up which matches went as expected, which were upsets, and what direction those tended to go in matchup terms. | ||
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DomeGetta
480 Posts
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Boggyb
2855 Posts
Because it includes WESG, HSC, GSL Qualifiers but acts like the competition level of WCS Circuit events is too low. Creator vs. Wardi and Mana vs. Replicant (who?) are useful indicators of balance but Neeb vs. SpeCial at a WCS Circuit event isn't. On July 18 2019 10:06 DomeGetta wrote: The toss players who come on here crying about how everyone has always hated toss arent wrong. But, there is a reason for it. It has specifically to do with the degree of difficulty required to execute builds that can bring a Protoss player above 6K on ladder. The fact that things like Has' canon robo s.b. builds and the Margery and a multitude of other absurdly easy to execute builds can be competitive at the pro level (notice I said competitive and not BROKEN) is the literal reason people hate Protoss. The builds that NoRegreT used against Terran and Protoss to qualify for multiple GSLs are even less difficult to execute than those. (ZvZ micro wars can be absolutely brutal) | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27363 Posts
On July 18 2019 10:06 DomeGetta wrote: So I want to clear something up for whiners on both sides of the discussion regarding Protoss. When most people hop on these threads the expectation is that the content is going to be balanced focused. Balance at the highest level of play (which Im sorry to continue to have to point out is in KOREA). Innovation got sent out in the ro32 after handing Serral a loss for 100K a few months earlier. The first round boys. Protoss winrates for 2019 in Korea are up enough for it to be significant for blizzard to react. That's literally all it is. But back to the issue at hand. What you really see 90% of the toss whine about has nothing to do with balance at all. The toss players who come on here crying about how everyone has always hated toss arent wrong. But, there is a reason for it. It has specifically to do with the degree of difficulty required to execute builds that can bring a Protoss player above 6K on ladder. The fact that things like Has' canon robo s.b. builds and the Margery and a multitude of other absurdly easy to execute builds can be competitive at the pro level (notice I said competitive and not BROKEN) is the literal reason people hate Protoss. The same goes in PvT late game. When the ultimate tech is reached its actually silly to watch. In my mind the "balancing" of mechanics required to execute builds that can win per MMR level is something that should be looked at seperately for each race and adjusted to prevent the end resulting bias / hate/ whatever you want to call it. The quality of life improvement of having design fixes in place for this would in my opinion have a very positive impact on the community. E.g. removing dumb shit from the game should be a regular part of community feedback updates. The first example we saw of this was the raven fix. The games were balanced but it was stupid to play and watch. They fixed it and TvZ didnt break.. in fact I think most people would agree its the matchup in by far the best place of all of them.. I didnt always agree with this thinking but its becoming more clear to me. Fundamentally that’s a problem with how Terran is designed and not Protoss, or Zerg for that matter Give a race 2 stock ranged units that are insanely microable, pump out a ton of damage, synergise with healing dropships, etc. The other 2 races have nothing remotely comparable to bio in terms of stock units you can micro to increase their effectiveness anywhere close to that, especially as numbers scale, so they need potent AoE to compensate. Potent AoE, or abilities like charge that top pros can mitigate by splitting or kiting, and regular plebs just can’t, and the game is generally balanced towards high levels of play and not across the MMR spectrum. Yes Protoss bullshit agreed and I don’t like the warp gate mechanic, but people consistently rail about Terran being the well designed race when if anything a whole bunch of related issues IMO stem from how they designed bio to begin with | ||
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Nezgar
Germany535 Posts
Because most of the data is wrong or manipulated in order to spread false information. This post was linked a few times already and posting it again doesn't make it any more true. | ||
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BlysK
Singapore48 Posts
VS Terrans, the fact that the stim buff exists is HUGE already, from scv pulls to new 1-1-1 timings, it's pretty insane the amount of openers they now have. But on top of all this theres a chargelot nerf? I feel this is so redundant. The warp prism nerf is very apt in all match ups actually, this has been abused quite a bit. And nerfing the costing for WP is also alright I guess (eventho immortals cost more)... And its already impeding a little on harassment on the protoss side. I'd want to think these 2 changes is enough on the protoss to balance things in light of buffs for terran and zerg too. | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On July 18 2019 07:12 Dedraterllaerau wrote: We had 1 single P dominated tournament ONE. Average Protoss representation in Korean tournaments Ro8 this year is more than Terran and Zerg combined, Blizzcon standings are at 5/8 Protoss players, which is also more than the other races combined, that doesn't happen with one tournament. I don't know what game Protoss players are watching when they come to this thread and say they aren't dominating everything, maybe its Dota or League of Legends. If Protoss players are doing poorly, or just average, why are there 5 Protoss, 2 Zergs and a single Terran at Blizzcon? | ||
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ThunderJunk
United States741 Posts
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On July 18 2019 10:49 Wombat_NI wrote: Fundamentally that’s a problem with how Terran is designed and not Protoss, or Zerg for that matter Give a race 2 stock ranged units that are insanely microable, pump out a ton of damage, synergise with healing dropships, etc. The other 2 races have nothing remotely comparable to bio in terms of stock units you can micro to increase their effectiveness anywhere close to that, especially as numbers scale, so they need potent AoE to compensate. Potent AoE, or abilities like charge that top pros can mitigate by splitting or kiting, and regular plebs just can’t, and the game is generally balanced towards high levels of play and not across the MMR spectrum. Yes Protoss bullshit agreed and I don’t like the warp gate mechanic, but people consistently rail about Terran being the well designed race when if anything a whole bunch of related issues IMO stem from how they designed bio to begin with Well I disagree, the "problem" in the formentioned situation is protoss. I strongly agree with Domegetta and while I see your point of view just look at TvZ. We have the same situation here, terran has more microable units with insane value potential, zerg has counters but you know what there is counter play to zergs counter. When zerg get baneling/ultra/lurker/bL/infestor bio can still be used, maybe it needs certain support units, but a lot can be done with good positioning, micro and game sense. That is an example of a good dynamic, I'm not saying terran (or any race) is supposed to be able to go a certain set of units and be able to win against everything but it should be playable. In PvT it is not, it is a serious case of rock-paper-scissors, if toss gets 3 colossi with some ground army in front of it the army is mobile, recallable and will crush bio very one sidedly. Terran cant just get a couple of libs or vikings because even if they focus the colossi during a fight the colossi will have killed the bio before they themselves are dead. I know colossi is bad right now but the same situation remains for other units, HT you need ghosts and to dance the dance because any fight with bio vs an army with 2-3 storms will be death, there is only run away or bait out all storms while only taking minor damage to your army which is crazy hard. I guess you can get tanks against HT but they are slow, clunky to use and protoss has the ultimate counter to them, if protoss gets a decent number of immortals or disruptors tanks are uselss (air also ofc). That is why the PvT matchup feels so bad in my opinion, its the same for protoss they need to survive the insanely strong bio until they get their aoe counter and they have the counter they still need to defend multi pronged harass maybe doom drops while trying to get an advantage out of their rock-scissor situation in army vs army. In TvZ whatever you play against you feel like there is a counterplay, there is a chance, in TvP you see the opponents units and tech and they counter yours and its either a) doomdrop b) turtle + multi harass until you hav ethe counter to their counter. My point is that it is possible to have aoe splash units that can balance up against the strength of bio (like zerg does) without it becoming the rock-paper-scissor feel that TvP has at the moment. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany7403 Posts
On July 18 2019 03:30 Wombat_NI wrote: I mean it basically puts us back to Templar maybe being too good vs enemy casters in real lategame armies, which was itself a bit wonky I think. I liked the suggestion that feedback would also add a movement debuft, or maybe a brief stun or something. You wouldn’t instantly kill casters but they’d be made a bit vulnerable to being picked off. Although now I think about it more it would make Templar too good against all sorts of harassment options that have energy pools. Very situational perhaps but medivacs, banshees, oracles and phoenixes might be shut down from escaping if there is a Templar present I think it's okay since when those mentioned harras options hit, nobody has Templar available. And in the later stages having Templar at all your bases to prevent these it's also quite an investment for the defender. Hell, make an 100/ 100 upgrade for Feedback to limit movement speed by 50% for 2 sec or hold a unit in place for 1 sec. Any maybe, mabye add +1 range to that upgrade as well. Since Ghost range is now upgradeable and Infestor has a greater range anyway. I mean, c'mon. I haven't seen a Toss use Feedback in a televised game for weeks. WEEKS! But maybe I just didn't catch it XD EDIT: Also proxy 3 rax is a waaaay worse build than cannon rush and can be done by any wood leaguer for those complaining about canon rushes | ||
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Dedraterllaerau
113 Posts
On July 18 2019 07:59 Lexender wrote: 2019 AfreecaTV GSL Super Tournament 12019 Global StarCraft II League Season 2/Code SAnd not quite toss dominated but one were T got royaly fucked up. https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/IEM_Season_XIII_-_Katowice Well you know sometimes the better players win too it's not just all about race so until you see 4 big tournaments in a row with all protoss winning then yeah it might be time for something drastic but as of now protoss is underperforming if you look at the big picture. | ||
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kajtarp
Hungary492 Posts
On July 18 2019 19:40 Dedraterllaerau wrote: Well you know sometimes the better players win too it's not just all about race so until you see 4 big tournaments in a row with all protoss winning then yeah it might be time for something drastic but as of now protoss is underperforming if you look at the big picture. Why is Toss underperforming? With GSL group H its pretty likely 7 out of 16 will be toss in Ro16. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany7403 Posts
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gTank
Austria2666 Posts
Don't agree to nerf them so much but this balance whining here is getting out of hand fast. | ||
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