|
On April 05 2019 13:18 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2019 11:14 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2019 09:58 JJH777 wrote:On April 05 2019 00:42 Xain0n wrote:On April 04 2019 23:57 fishjie wrote:
ok Maru dont fuck this up. beat trap, then beat classic, and become a 4PEAT champion, cementing your place as GOAT, and silencing all the alt accounts that Dave4 will create He would be GSL GOAT, not Starcraft 2 GOAT. He's won an SSL, OSL, and WESG too. Plus numerous second places and top 4s in all sorts of events and being the best proleague player in SC2. I think 1 more GSL gives him a very real claim to GOAT. If he wins anything else this year it becomes hard to argue. Please check at least what Life, Innovation and Mvp won(in no clear order), in a shorter or much shorter career, then reconsider your statements. Maru is very far from being GOAT, a fourth Code S won't definitely close the gap. He'd easily be the GOAT. Bogus is the only one with a shot at overtaking him. Mvp is not even top 3 anymore. His period of longevity was way too brief. Life accomplished a lot, but surprisingly had a spotty record when it came to starleagues. Maru has been a top-tier player since 2013, if he wins this he'll have won 6 Korean starleagues and has already won every type. Not many foreign tournament wins, but then again, Maru didn't venture out of Korea back when there were a lot more opportunities. He was busy with SPL
no but MVP had a broken back for his entire career and thus will forever be the GOAT /s
|
On April 05 2019 13:50 starkiller123 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2019 13:18 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On April 05 2019 11:14 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2019 09:58 JJH777 wrote:On April 05 2019 00:42 Xain0n wrote:On April 04 2019 23:57 fishjie wrote:
ok Maru dont fuck this up. beat trap, then beat classic, and become a 4PEAT champion, cementing your place as GOAT, and silencing all the alt accounts that Dave4 will create He would be GSL GOAT, not Starcraft 2 GOAT. He's won an SSL, OSL, and WESG too. Plus numerous second places and top 4s in all sorts of events and being the best proleague player in SC2. I think 1 more GSL gives him a very real claim to GOAT. If he wins anything else this year it becomes hard to argue. Please check at least what Life, Innovation and Mvp won(in no clear order), in a shorter or much shorter career, then reconsider your statements. Maru is very far from being GOAT, a fourth Code S won't definitely close the gap. He'd easily be the GOAT. Bogus is the only one with a shot at overtaking him. Mvp is not even top 3 anymore. His period of longevity was way too brief. Life accomplished a lot, but surprisingly had a spotty record when it came to starleagues. Maru has been a top-tier player since 2013, if he wins this he'll have won 6 Korean starleagues and has already won every type. Not many foreign tournament wins, but then again, Maru didn't venture out of Korea back when there were a lot more opportunities. He was busy with SPL no but MVP had a broken back for his entire career and thus will forever be the GOAT /s
MVP won way more Premier tournaments(and the most competitive ones at his time) in three years than Maru did
in eight. If only korean tournaments existed Maru could very well be the GOAT, he's like the opposite of TaeJa; Maru was one ot the best Proleague players, that's true, and now he has become insanely good at that unique, preparation heavy, tournament Code S is.
However, he lacks international successes and that's not because he did not care to try.
|
On April 05 2019 15:11 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2019 13:50 starkiller123 wrote:On April 05 2019 13:18 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On April 05 2019 11:14 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2019 09:58 JJH777 wrote:On April 05 2019 00:42 Xain0n wrote:On April 04 2019 23:57 fishjie wrote:
ok Maru dont fuck this up. beat trap, then beat classic, and become a 4PEAT champion, cementing your place as GOAT, and silencing all the alt accounts that Dave4 will create He would be GSL GOAT, not Starcraft 2 GOAT. He's won an SSL, OSL, and WESG too. Plus numerous second places and top 4s in all sorts of events and being the best proleague player in SC2. I think 1 more GSL gives him a very real claim to GOAT. If he wins anything else this year it becomes hard to argue. Please check at least what Life, Innovation and Mvp won(in no clear order), in a shorter or much shorter career, then reconsider your statements. Maru is very far from being GOAT, a fourth Code S won't definitely close the gap. He'd easily be the GOAT. Bogus is the only one with a shot at overtaking him. Mvp is not even top 3 anymore. His period of longevity was way too brief. Life accomplished a lot, but surprisingly had a spotty record when it came to starleagues. Maru has been a top-tier player since 2013, if he wins this he'll have won 6 Korean starleagues and has already won every type. Not many foreign tournament wins, but then again, Maru didn't venture out of Korea back when there were a lot more opportunities. He was busy with SPL no but MVP had a broken back for his entire career and thus will forever be the GOAT /s MVP won way more Premier tournaments(and the most competitive ones at his time) in three years than Maru did in eight. If only korean tournaments existed Maru could very well be the GOAT, he's like the opposite of TaeJa; Maru was one ot the best Proleague players, that's true, and now he has become insanely good at that unique, preparation heavy, tournament Code S is. However, he lacks international successes and that's not because he did not care to try.
You treatment of the GSL as almost a domestic competition to add weight to your argument is borderline ridiculous. It makes sense from your perspective though which is to establish Serral as the best player and eventually try to undermine the achievements of any other player who could be considered better.
All these years the GSL has been the most sought after championship for a reason up until Serral came around and shook things up, all credit to him. Foreigners like Neeb, Special and Scarlett have lived in Korea and competed for the GSL certainly because it has the biggest prizepool. But that does show that it carries priority in anybody's journey to be the best and not just koreans.
|
On April 05 2019 15:26 ValM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2019 15:11 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2019 13:50 starkiller123 wrote:On April 05 2019 13:18 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On April 05 2019 11:14 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2019 09:58 JJH777 wrote:On April 05 2019 00:42 Xain0n wrote:On April 04 2019 23:57 fishjie wrote:
ok Maru dont fuck this up. beat trap, then beat classic, and become a 4PEAT champion, cementing your place as GOAT, and silencing all the alt accounts that Dave4 will create He would be GSL GOAT, not Starcraft 2 GOAT. He's won an SSL, OSL, and WESG too. Plus numerous second places and top 4s in all sorts of events and being the best proleague player in SC2. I think 1 more GSL gives him a very real claim to GOAT. If he wins anything else this year it becomes hard to argue. Please check at least what Life, Innovation and Mvp won(in no clear order), in a shorter or much shorter career, then reconsider your statements. Maru is very far from being GOAT, a fourth Code S won't definitely close the gap. He'd easily be the GOAT. Bogus is the only one with a shot at overtaking him. Mvp is not even top 3 anymore. His period of longevity was way too brief. Life accomplished a lot, but surprisingly had a spotty record when it came to starleagues. Maru has been a top-tier player since 2013, if he wins this he'll have won 6 Korean starleagues and has already won every type. Not many foreign tournament wins, but then again, Maru didn't venture out of Korea back when there were a lot more opportunities. He was busy with SPL no but MVP had a broken back for his entire career and thus will forever be the GOAT /s MVP won way more Premier tournaments(and the most competitive ones at his time) in three years than Maru did in eight. If only korean tournaments existed Maru could very well be the GOAT, he's like the opposite of TaeJa; Maru was one ot the best Proleague players, that's true, and now he has become insanely good at that unique, preparation heavy, tournament Code S is. However, he lacks international successes and that's not because he did not care to try. You treatment of the GSL as almost a domestic competition to add weight to your argument is borderline ridiculous. It makes sense from your perspective though which is to establish Serral as the best player and eventually try to undermine the achievements of any other player who could be considered better. All these years the GSL has been the most sought after championship for a reason up until Serral came around and shook things up, all credit to him. Foreigners like Neeb, Special and Scarlett have lived in Korea and competed for the GSL certainly because it has the biggest prizepool. But that does show that it carries priority in anybody's journey to be the best and not just koreans.
I beg your pardon? Where did I mention Serral, exactly?
All the players I suggested as potential GOAT are koreans, Serral needs to win at least other five Premier tournaments, two or three being Code S and/or a top tier international tournament(Katowice, BlizzCon) before I would include him in the list. He already achieved being foreigner GOAT and the best player in the world in 2018, at the moment I would personally rate him as a top 10 player all time, no more.
Code S still is, without any doubt, the most prestigious korean tournament, in WoL it was the one with the biggest prize pool in the world and in HoTS foreigners were so negligible its essentionally regional nature could be ignored the way it happens with Brood War tournaments.
It's hard to overrate such a legendary competition, but to me it seems you guys kind of do.
Winning this Code S(and he still has to) would surely cement Maru as the most accomplished player in GSL.
However, would you crown as GOAT a player who most of the times crumbles when he leaves his home soil, or when he doesn't have weeks to specifically prepare for his next opponents?
Not only Maru doesn't have the numbers to me, he cannot sport a period of unchallenged domination("only" the most impressive streak in Code S ever); he's top 5 for sure in my ideal list.
|
On April 05 2019 15:59 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2019 15:26 ValM wrote:On April 05 2019 15:11 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2019 13:50 starkiller123 wrote:On April 05 2019 13:18 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On April 05 2019 11:14 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2019 09:58 JJH777 wrote:On April 05 2019 00:42 Xain0n wrote:On April 04 2019 23:57 fishjie wrote:
ok Maru dont fuck this up. beat trap, then beat classic, and become a 4PEAT champion, cementing your place as GOAT, and silencing all the alt accounts that Dave4 will create He would be GSL GOAT, not Starcraft 2 GOAT. He's won an SSL, OSL, and WESG too. Plus numerous second places and top 4s in all sorts of events and being the best proleague player in SC2. I think 1 more GSL gives him a very real claim to GOAT. If he wins anything else this year it becomes hard to argue. Please check at least what Life, Innovation and Mvp won(in no clear order), in a shorter or much shorter career, then reconsider your statements. Maru is very far from being GOAT, a fourth Code S won't definitely close the gap. He'd easily be the GOAT. Bogus is the only one with a shot at overtaking him. Mvp is not even top 3 anymore. His period of longevity was way too brief. Life accomplished a lot, but surprisingly had a spotty record when it came to starleagues. Maru has been a top-tier player since 2013, if he wins this he'll have won 6 Korean starleagues and has already won every type. Not many foreign tournament wins, but then again, Maru didn't venture out of Korea back when there were a lot more opportunities. He was busy with SPL no but MVP had a broken back for his entire career and thus will forever be the GOAT /s MVP won way more Premier tournaments(and the most competitive ones at his time) in three years than Maru did in eight. If only korean tournaments existed Maru could very well be the GOAT, he's like the opposite of TaeJa; Maru was one ot the best Proleague players, that's true, and now he has become insanely good at that unique, preparation heavy, tournament Code S is. However, he lacks international successes and that's not because he did not care to try. You treatment of the GSL as almost a domestic competition to add weight to your argument is borderline ridiculous. It makes sense from your perspective though which is to establish Serral as the best player and eventually try to undermine the achievements of any other player who could be considered better. All these years the GSL has been the most sought after championship for a reason up until Serral came around and shook things up, all credit to him. Foreigners like Neeb, Special and Scarlett have lived in Korea and competed for the GSL certainly because it has the biggest prizepool. But that does show that it carries priority in anybody's journey to be the best and not just koreans. I beg your pardon? Where did I mention Serral, exactly? All the players I suggested as potential GOAT are koreans, Serral needs to win at least other five Premier tournaments, two or three being Code S and/or a top tier international tournament(Katowice, BlizzCon) before I would include him in the list. He already achieved being foreigner GOAT and the best player in the world in 2018, at the moment I would personally rate him as a top 10 player all time, no more. Code S still is, without any doubt, the most prestigious korean tournament, in WoL it was the one with the biggest prize pool in the world and in HoTS foreigners were so negligible its essentionally regional nature could be ignored the way it happens with Brood War tournaments. It's hard to overrate such a legendary competition, but to me it seems you guys kind of do. Winning this Code S(and he still has to) would surely cement Maru as the most accomplished player in GSL. However, would you crown as GOAT a player who most of the times crumbles when he leaves his home soil, or when he doesn't have weeks to specifically prepare for his next opponents? Not only Maru doesn't have the numbers to me, he cannot sport a period of unchallenged domination("only" the most impressive streak in Code S ever); he's top 5 for sure in my ideal list.
Neither did I mention Maru in my post or maybe you assumed I was talking about him from my signature?
Winning this Code S(and he still has to) would surely cement Maru as the most accomplished player in GSL.
Thats what I am saying. There is no such thing as the most accomplished in the GSL. The GSL and the "international scene" are not separate.
And as for the bit I wrote about Serral, I got that bit from reading so much you have said about him in the past.
You mentioned Life, Innovation and Mvp as the GOATs and true that. They wouldnt have been thought of the same way if they hadnt been GSL champions irrespective of the number of premier weekend tournaments they had won(Taeja?). Its not us guys overrating the GSL, its the other way round with you undermining it because you feel Maru can prepare. Well everybody else can as well.
|
On April 05 2019 16:23 ValM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2019 15:59 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2019 15:26 ValM wrote:On April 05 2019 15:11 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2019 13:50 starkiller123 wrote:On April 05 2019 13:18 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On April 05 2019 11:14 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2019 09:58 JJH777 wrote:On April 05 2019 00:42 Xain0n wrote:On April 04 2019 23:57 fishjie wrote:
ok Maru dont fuck this up. beat trap, then beat classic, and become a 4PEAT champion, cementing your place as GOAT, and silencing all the alt accounts that Dave4 will create He would be GSL GOAT, not Starcraft 2 GOAT. He's won an SSL, OSL, and WESG too. Plus numerous second places and top 4s in all sorts of events and being the best proleague player in SC2. I think 1 more GSL gives him a very real claim to GOAT. If he wins anything else this year it becomes hard to argue. Please check at least what Life, Innovation and Mvp won(in no clear order), in a shorter or much shorter career, then reconsider your statements. Maru is very far from being GOAT, a fourth Code S won't definitely close the gap. He'd easily be the GOAT. Bogus is the only one with a shot at overtaking him. Mvp is not even top 3 anymore. His period of longevity was way too brief. Life accomplished a lot, but surprisingly had a spotty record when it came to starleagues. Maru has been a top-tier player since 2013, if he wins this he'll have won 6 Korean starleagues and has already won every type. Not many foreign tournament wins, but then again, Maru didn't venture out of Korea back when there were a lot more opportunities. He was busy with SPL no but MVP had a broken back for his entire career and thus will forever be the GOAT /s MVP won way more Premier tournaments(and the most competitive ones at his time) in three years than Maru did in eight. If only korean tournaments existed Maru could very well be the GOAT, he's like the opposite of TaeJa; Maru was one ot the best Proleague players, that's true, and now he has become insanely good at that unique, preparation heavy, tournament Code S is. However, he lacks international successes and that's not because he did not care to try. You treatment of the GSL as almost a domestic competition to add weight to your argument is borderline ridiculous. It makes sense from your perspective though which is to establish Serral as the best player and eventually try to undermine the achievements of any other player who could be considered better. All these years the GSL has been the most sought after championship for a reason up until Serral came around and shook things up, all credit to him. Foreigners like Neeb, Special and Scarlett have lived in Korea and competed for the GSL certainly because it has the biggest prizepool. But that does show that it carries priority in anybody's journey to be the best and not just koreans. I beg your pardon? Where did I mention Serral, exactly? All the players I suggested as potential GOAT are koreans, Serral needs to win at least other five Premier tournaments, two or three being Code S and/or a top tier international tournament(Katowice, BlizzCon) before I would include him in the list. He already achieved being foreigner GOAT and the best player in the world in 2018, at the moment I would personally rate him as a top 10 player all time, no more. Code S still is, without any doubt, the most prestigious korean tournament, in WoL it was the one with the biggest prize pool in the world and in HoTS foreigners were so negligible its essentionally regional nature could be ignored the way it happens with Brood War tournaments. It's hard to overrate such a legendary competition, but to me it seems you guys kind of do. Winning this Code S(and he still has to) would surely cement Maru as the most accomplished player in GSL. However, would you crown as GOAT a player who most of the times crumbles when he leaves his home soil, or when he doesn't have weeks to specifically prepare for his next opponents? Not only Maru doesn't have the numbers to me, he cannot sport a period of unchallenged domination("only" the most impressive streak in Code S ever); he's top 5 for sure in my ideal list. Neither did I mention Maru in my post or maybe you assumed I was talking about him from my signature? Show nested quote +Winning this Code S(and he still has to) would surely cement Maru as the most accomplished player in GSL. Thats what I am saying. There is no such thing as the most accomplished in the GSL. The GSL and the "international scene" are not separate. And as for the bit I wrote about Serral, I got that bit from reading so much you have said about him in the past. You mentioned Life, Innovation and Mvp as the GOATs and true that. They wouldnt have been thought of the same way if they hadnt been GSL champions irrespective of the number of premier weekend tournaments they had won(Taeja?). Its not us guys overrating the GSL, its the other way round with you undermining it because you feel Maru can prepare. Well everybody else can as well.
Hmm I assumed you were speaking of Maru as the discussion here had become if he would be the GOAT or not would he win the fourth consecutive Code S; I am an avid Serral fan and I mentioned him in the great majority of my posts here on TL, that's true, but I wouldn't have involved him in a GOAT discussion.
I assure you I am not disregarding GSL and I agree with you completely when you say victories in Code S were integral in shaping the legend of the players I mentioned as possible GOAT.
Maru is by far the best at preparing, possibly the best in history already; the point is that he is the best only at that since he performs way worse when he is not given the time to study his opponent.
In fact, If the scenes were totally separated Maru would be GOAT but once you bring in non-korean tournaments(which are not irrelevant and thus cannot be ignored) he has very little to add compared to MVP, Life or Innovation; in terms of successes(unlike his playstyle and skills, very well rounded) he seems me to be one incomplete, monodimentional player who can easily get to the Olympus of SC2 on the back of his unprecedent GSL triumphs but cannot be crowned GOAT because of the almost total lack of successes in international tournaments and weekenders.
|
On April 05 2019 16:49 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2019 16:23 ValM wrote:On April 05 2019 15:59 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2019 15:26 ValM wrote:On April 05 2019 15:11 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2019 13:50 starkiller123 wrote:On April 05 2019 13:18 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On April 05 2019 11:14 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2019 09:58 JJH777 wrote:On April 05 2019 00:42 Xain0n wrote:
[quote]
He would be GSL GOAT, not Starcraft 2 GOAT.
He's won an SSL, OSL, and WESG too. Plus numerous second places and top 4s in all sorts of events and being the best proleague player in SC2. I think 1 more GSL gives him a very real claim to GOAT. If he wins anything else this year it becomes hard to argue. Please check at least what Life, Innovation and Mvp won(in no clear order), in a shorter or much shorter career, then reconsider your statements. Maru is very far from being GOAT, a fourth Code S won't definitely close the gap. He'd easily be the GOAT. Bogus is the only one with a shot at overtaking him. Mvp is not even top 3 anymore. His period of longevity was way too brief. Life accomplished a lot, but surprisingly had a spotty record when it came to starleagues. Maru has been a top-tier player since 2013, if he wins this he'll have won 6 Korean starleagues and has already won every type. Not many foreign tournament wins, but then again, Maru didn't venture out of Korea back when there were a lot more opportunities. He was busy with SPL no but MVP had a broken back for his entire career and thus will forever be the GOAT /s MVP won way more Premier tournaments(and the most competitive ones at his time) in three years than Maru did in eight. If only korean tournaments existed Maru could very well be the GOAT, he's like the opposite of TaeJa; Maru was one ot the best Proleague players, that's true, and now he has become insanely good at that unique, preparation heavy, tournament Code S is. However, he lacks international successes and that's not because he did not care to try. You treatment of the GSL as almost a domestic competition to add weight to your argument is borderline ridiculous. It makes sense from your perspective though which is to establish Serral as the best player and eventually try to undermine the achievements of any other player who could be considered better. All these years the GSL has been the most sought after championship for a reason up until Serral came around and shook things up, all credit to him. Foreigners like Neeb, Special and Scarlett have lived in Korea and competed for the GSL certainly because it has the biggest prizepool. But that does show that it carries priority in anybody's journey to be the best and not just koreans. I beg your pardon? Where did I mention Serral, exactly? All the players I suggested as potential GOAT are koreans, Serral needs to win at least other five Premier tournaments, two or three being Code S and/or a top tier international tournament(Katowice, BlizzCon) before I would include him in the list. He already achieved being foreigner GOAT and the best player in the world in 2018, at the moment I would personally rate him as a top 10 player all time, no more. Code S still is, without any doubt, the most prestigious korean tournament, in WoL it was the one with the biggest prize pool in the world and in HoTS foreigners were so negligible its essentionally regional nature could be ignored the way it happens with Brood War tournaments. It's hard to overrate such a legendary competition, but to me it seems you guys kind of do. Winning this Code S(and he still has to) would surely cement Maru as the most accomplished player in GSL. However, would you crown as GOAT a player who most of the times crumbles when he leaves his home soil, or when he doesn't have weeks to specifically prepare for his next opponents? Not only Maru doesn't have the numbers to me, he cannot sport a period of unchallenged domination("only" the most impressive streak in Code S ever); he's top 5 for sure in my ideal list. Neither did I mention Maru in my post or maybe you assumed I was talking about him from my signature? Winning this Code S(and he still has to) would surely cement Maru as the most accomplished player in GSL. Thats what I am saying. There is no such thing as the most accomplished in the GSL. The GSL and the "international scene" are not separate. And as for the bit I wrote about Serral, I got that bit from reading so much you have said about him in the past. You mentioned Life, Innovation and Mvp as the GOATs and true that. They wouldnt have been thought of the same way if they hadnt been GSL champions irrespective of the number of premier weekend tournaments they had won(Taeja?). Its not us guys overrating the GSL, its the other way round with you undermining it because you feel Maru can prepare. Well everybody else can as well. Hmm I assumed you were speaking of Maru as the discussion here had become if he would be the GOAT or not would he win the fourth consecutive Code S; I am an avid Serral fan and I mentioned him in the great majority of my posts here on TL, that's true, but I wouldn't have involved him in a GOAT discussion. I assure you I am not disregarding GSL and I agree with you completely when you say victories in Code S were integral in shaping the legend of the players I mentioned as possible GOAT. Maru is by far the best at preparing, possibly the best in history already; the point is that he is the best only at that since he performs way worse when he is not given the time to study his opponent. In fact, If the scenes were totally separated Maru would be GOAT but once you bring in non-korean tournaments(which are not irrelevant and thus cannot be ignored) he has very little to add compared to MVP, Life or Innovation; in terms of successes(unlike his playstyle and skills, very well rounded) he seems me to be one incomplete, monodimentional player who can easily get to the Olympus of SC2 on the back of his unprecedent GSL triumphs but cannot be crowned GOAT because of the almost total lack of successes in international tournaments and weekenders.
If we're talking about well rounded, there is no Terran more well rounded than him. No Terran plays the lategame and comes back from bad situations the way he does. At the same time no other Terran would flip the coin and do the most unexpected cheesey opening either. He has done that enough times to be inside his opponent's head but that has backfired on him as well, specially in international tournaments as you mention. His IEM result was surely a bad showing and bad mindset.
I would recommend games from IEM Katowice 2018 where he looked untouchable till he lost to rogue 2-3. Maru vs sOO where he showed crazy comebacks in the lategame from bad positions. Maru vs TY where he continued opening 2 rax but gained significant advantages over TY when games went past mid game.
Mechanically he is the one who pushes and utilizes Terran to its limits and can win in any phase of the game. Thats just what makes him who he is as a player and thats why its so crazy to take on somebody like that in a bo5+ because he can win mechanically/from a deficit/early game and thats why he had the success he has in GSL. Its a matter of time and a bit of luck until he shows decent showings in weekenders as well according to me.
Whats truly amazing to me is that I see almost all these qualities in Serral as well and have been most awed by him and thats why it would be truly epic were they to play a bo7 someday. They both are truly once in a generation sort of players.
|
On April 05 2019 17:10 ValM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2019 16:49 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2019 16:23 ValM wrote:On April 05 2019 15:59 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2019 15:26 ValM wrote:On April 05 2019 15:11 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2019 13:50 starkiller123 wrote:On April 05 2019 13:18 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On April 05 2019 11:14 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2019 09:58 JJH777 wrote:
[quote]
He's won an SSL, OSL, and WESG too. Plus numerous second places and top 4s in all sorts of events and being the best proleague player in SC2. I think 1 more GSL gives him a very real claim to GOAT. If he wins anything else this year it becomes hard to argue. Please check at least what Life, Innovation and Mvp won(in no clear order), in a shorter or much shorter career, then reconsider your statements. Maru is very far from being GOAT, a fourth Code S won't definitely close the gap. He'd easily be the GOAT. Bogus is the only one with a shot at overtaking him. Mvp is not even top 3 anymore. His period of longevity was way too brief. Life accomplished a lot, but surprisingly had a spotty record when it came to starleagues. Maru has been a top-tier player since 2013, if he wins this he'll have won 6 Korean starleagues and has already won every type. Not many foreign tournament wins, but then again, Maru didn't venture out of Korea back when there were a lot more opportunities. He was busy with SPL no but MVP had a broken back for his entire career and thus will forever be the GOAT /s MVP won way more Premier tournaments(and the most competitive ones at his time) in three years than Maru did in eight. If only korean tournaments existed Maru could very well be the GOAT, he's like the opposite of TaeJa; Maru was one ot the best Proleague players, that's true, and now he has become insanely good at that unique, preparation heavy, tournament Code S is. However, he lacks international successes and that's not because he did not care to try. You treatment of the GSL as almost a domestic competition to add weight to your argument is borderline ridiculous. It makes sense from your perspective though which is to establish Serral as the best player and eventually try to undermine the achievements of any other player who could be considered better. All these years the GSL has been the most sought after championship for a reason up until Serral came around and shook things up, all credit to him. Foreigners like Neeb, Special and Scarlett have lived in Korea and competed for the GSL certainly because it has the biggest prizepool. But that does show that it carries priority in anybody's journey to be the best and not just koreans. I beg your pardon? Where did I mention Serral, exactly? All the players I suggested as potential GOAT are koreans, Serral needs to win at least other five Premier tournaments, two or three being Code S and/or a top tier international tournament(Katowice, BlizzCon) before I would include him in the list. He already achieved being foreigner GOAT and the best player in the world in 2018, at the moment I would personally rate him as a top 10 player all time, no more. Code S still is, without any doubt, the most prestigious korean tournament, in WoL it was the one with the biggest prize pool in the world and in HoTS foreigners were so negligible its essentionally regional nature could be ignored the way it happens with Brood War tournaments. It's hard to overrate such a legendary competition, but to me it seems you guys kind of do. Winning this Code S(and he still has to) would surely cement Maru as the most accomplished player in GSL. However, would you crown as GOAT a player who most of the times crumbles when he leaves his home soil, or when he doesn't have weeks to specifically prepare for his next opponents? Not only Maru doesn't have the numbers to me, he cannot sport a period of unchallenged domination("only" the most impressive streak in Code S ever); he's top 5 for sure in my ideal list. Neither did I mention Maru in my post or maybe you assumed I was talking about him from my signature? Winning this Code S(and he still has to) would surely cement Maru as the most accomplished player in GSL. Thats what I am saying. There is no such thing as the most accomplished in the GSL. The GSL and the "international scene" are not separate. And as for the bit I wrote about Serral, I got that bit from reading so much you have said about him in the past. You mentioned Life, Innovation and Mvp as the GOATs and true that. They wouldnt have been thought of the same way if they hadnt been GSL champions irrespective of the number of premier weekend tournaments they had won(Taeja?). Its not us guys overrating the GSL, its the other way round with you undermining it because you feel Maru can prepare. Well everybody else can as well. Hmm I assumed you were speaking of Maru as the discussion here had become if he would be the GOAT or not would he win the fourth consecutive Code S; I am an avid Serral fan and I mentioned him in the great majority of my posts here on TL, that's true, but I wouldn't have involved him in a GOAT discussion. I assure you I am not disregarding GSL and I agree with you completely when you say victories in Code S were integral in shaping the legend of the players I mentioned as possible GOAT. Maru is by far the best at preparing, possibly the best in history already; the point is that he is the best only at that since he performs way worse when he is not given the time to study his opponent. In fact, If the scenes were totally separated Maru would be GOAT but once you bring in non-korean tournaments(which are not irrelevant and thus cannot be ignored) he has very little to add compared to MVP, Life or Innovation; in terms of successes(unlike his playstyle and skills, very well rounded) he seems me to be one incomplete, monodimentional player who can easily get to the Olympus of SC2 on the back of his unprecedent GSL triumphs but cannot be crowned GOAT because of the almost total lack of successes in international tournaments and weekenders. If we're talking about well rounded, there is no Terran more well rounded than him. No Terran plays the lategame and comes back from bad situations the way he does. At the same time no other Terran would flip the coin and do the most unexpected cheesey opening either. He has done that enough times to be inside his opponent's head but that has backfired on him as well, specially in international tournaments as you mention. His IEM result was surely a bad showing and bad mindset. I would recommend games from IEM Katowice 2018 where he looked untouchable till he lost to rogue 2-3. Maru vs sOO where he showed crazy comebacks in the lategame from bad positions. Maru vs TY where he continued opening 2 rax but gained significant advantages over TY when games went past mid game. Mechanically he is the one who pushes and utilizes Terran to its limits and can win in any phase of the game. Thats just what makes him who he is as a player and thats why its so crazy to take on somebody like that in a bo5+ because he can win mechanically/from a deficit/early game and thats why he had the success he has in GSL. Its a matter of time and a bit of luck until he shows decent showings in weekenders as well according to me. Whats truly amazing to me is that I see almost all these qualities in Serral as well and have been most awed by him and thats why it would be truly epic were they to play a bo7 someday. They both are truly once in a generation sort of players.
I agree with you completely on that; mechanichally Maru is a god, sometimes he is just too stubborn.
Only time will tell if he can keep winning or further improve in terms of results.
|
Pls, Life and Mvp have nothing on Maru, Inno is the only one who competes with him.
I get your point about the GOAT having to be good at both formats and that's the reason why imo Inno is the GOAT but Maru is so far ahead of Life and Mvp in accomplishments you can't just say "he does bad at weekend tournaments so I'm just not counting his GSL wins as much"
|
On April 05 2019 19:04 Charoisaur wrote:
Pls, Life and Mvp have nothing on Maru, Inno is the only one who competes with him.
I get your point about the GOAT having to be good at both formats and that's the reason why imo Inno is the GOAT but Maru is so far ahead of Life and Mvp in accomplishments you can't just say "he does bad at weekend tournaments so I'm just not counting his GSL wins as much"
Yeaaah I'm sorry but if he won a 4th code S in a row - these people are out of their minds saying he is not the GOAT.
I don't even care about WESG or Royal-Roading anybody who has watched GSL from the start will agree if you some how manage to beat the absolute monsters that qualify for that tournament everrrry season for over a year you are a starcraft literal god. No one would have even thought it possible until last year - because of Maru.
Mvp had no such reign / Even life did not.
PS not sure how this ended up on a Classic Beats Dark thread rofl - thought I was reading the preview of Maru / Trap still
|
On April 05 2019 10:25 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2019 09:58 JJH777 wrote:On April 05 2019 00:42 Xain0n wrote:On April 04 2019 23:57 fishjie wrote:
ok Maru dont fuck this up. beat trap, then beat classic, and become a 4PEAT champion, cementing your place as GOAT, and silencing all the alt accounts that Dave4 will create He would be GSL GOAT, not Starcraft 2 GOAT. He's won an SSL, OSL, and WESG too. Plus numerous second places and top 4s in all sorts of events and being the best proleague player in SC2. I think 1 more GSL gives him a very real claim to GOAT. If he wins anything else this year it becomes hard to argue. I would definitely question "best proleague player." At the very least he has stiff competition, if not clear superiors.
Whether or not he's GOAT, Maru was the best proleague player.
Every year he competed he was either #1 or #2 in wins. No other player is close to that.
If you look at his average wins per season I believe he's the highest (including playoffs).
His overall win% is either the best or second best behind INno (I think anyway, was a while that I worked it out)
And his run in 2018 was disgusting, an 85% winrate over the whole season is the best since Flash in 2010 and easily the most dominant of any proleague player in sc2. Not love he faced scrubs either, he beat all the good starleague players of the time (except ByuN I guess)
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
