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On September 01 2018 22:03 Nakajin wrote:
Other then that I think we can all agree that BC is the worst unit in the game, cost a shit load, need a huge infrastructure swap and can't do anything by itself unless you have like 10 of them, also they take a lot of supply.
I agree, the BC has one of the worst utility/cost ratio’s. Its abilities are strong but are also limited by long cooldowns and you definitely pay a lot for what they offer. The carrier is similarly expensive I’d take a group of 10-12 carriers over BCs any day.
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On September 02 2018 09:09 AaBbCc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2018 22:03 Nakajin wrote:
Other then that I think we can all agree that BC is the worst unit in the game, cost a shit load, need a huge infrastructure swap and can't do anything by itself unless you have like 10 of them, also they take a lot of supply. I agree, the BC has one of the worst utility/cost ratio’s. Its abilities are strong but are also limited by long cooldowns and you definitely pay a lot for what they offer. The carrier is similarly expensive I’d take a group of 10-12 carriers over BCs any day.
Unless you had carriers vs BCs in which case the BCs straight up murder carriers.
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Kinda hard to pinpoint exactly what you mean tbh. Every unit that is made has value otherwise you wouldn't bother getting it. I assume you mean units that you only get a few of that can add a lot for their respective part of the game without investing any upgrades into them? Seems like a really specific requirement lol.
Queens, Ravagers, Vipers, Oracles, Warp Prisms, DTs, Sentries, Observers, Reapers, Cyclones, Medivacs, Liberator.
Some of the above can be massed, more the point that having 1-4 of these units at critical points in the game is really useful in many different situations.
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On September 02 2018 09:03 avilo wrote:
Vipers give the most for their cost because a single viper can be worth 3 times it's own supply.
One viper is 3 supply. One blinding cloud can shut down 3 siege tanks, sometimes 5, which is equivalent to minimum 9 supply, maximum 15 supply.
A single viper at full energy can use two blinding clouds. One cloud can shut down 9-15 supply as said above. This means one single viper can shut down potentially 18-30 supply of an opponent's army. Two vipers at full energy can use 4 blinding clouds and theoretically shut down around 60 supply of tanks/lurkers/bio/etc. 6 supply can shut down 40+ supply of the opponent.
A viper can use one parasitic bomb, potentially killing 5-15 vikings if placed well, aka 10-30 supply theoretically.
The amount of combinations of abilities, double blinding cloud, double abduct, parasitic bomb, abduct + blinding cloud, with the ability to then re-use all of the vipers and regain energy through consuming buildings...makes the viper basically the best unit in the game.
2 vipers can theoretically shut down 10-30 supply themselves with just blinding clouds, or parasitic bombs on mass air.
On top of this, the viper is usable in every single match-up, with the worst match-up being ZvP due to feedbacks, but even then vipers are still usable.
The viper is the most cost efficient unit in the game for supply cost, resource cost, and for what it can theoretically do. There is no contest. No other unit comes close. Maybe the pre-nerf raven did, and potentially scrambler missile SOLELY in TvT could come close to the viper's efficiency, but then again, the viper still is uncontested because of it's usability in every match-up.
Can't get to a decent viper count without using overpowered queens as a crutch in the early and mid game.
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Obviously not counting workers and just to make it interesting I won't include the queen since Zerg's macro mechanic is also a unit.
Zerg: Zergling. Dirt cheap for scouting and excellent harassment. Useful during fights as a buffer for more valuable units or just to assist in flanking maneuvers. See ByuL, Life, and Serral for Zerglings used to their full potential.
Terran: Marine. 50 minerals, tier 1, great micro potential and it hits both ground and air. It's also a ranged unit, meaning it scales better in higher numbers. Strong contender even after all these years as the unit with the most utility overall.
Protoss: Oracles. 150/150 for great harassment, great early defense, amazing scouting, and even detection. They come out at a reasonable tier and in the hands of skilled players these fuckers are hard to kill.
Overall: Oracles
All-time: WoL Infestors bar none
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Larva are free 
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On September 02 2018 09:14 Pursuit_ wrote:
Kinda hard to pinpoint exactly what you mean tbh. Every unit that is made has value otherwise you wouldn't bother getting it.
You're right, when writing this I was conscious that my question is pretty nebulous in concept - comparing 'utility' for different units was always going to be an exercize laden with ambiguity/different interpretations. I just didn't want to waffle on to much defining what I meant. But yeah to rephrase as simply 'for what you pay, what unit gives you the most value? Utility is meant in the broadest possible way and includes any and all useful things the unit brings to your cause.
Of course comparing a heterogeneous set of units, that are at their most useful at different times in the game, across different match-ups and with varying costs/tech requirements is a pointless cerebral exercise, but I found it interesting to think about.
I assume you mean units that you only get a few of that can add a lot for their respective part of the game without investing any upgrades into them? Seems like a really specific requirement lol.
I mean the sum total of everything from how much they add at their respective part of the game, to how essential are they across match-ups. I didn't mean without investing any upgrades, I meant with due consideration to the cost of those upgrades and what they add as part of the overall equation.
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For cost? Marine, hands down no contest
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Oracle... vision, harassment and defensiv capability, detection, high DPS.
Queen is obviously a legit answer as well, but i feel like its more a necessity, cause its the only allround unit in zergs early game. and it has all the different functions... most of them more defensiv orientated. hard to compare, but my answer is oracle, always usefull in so many diffenet aspects.
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It would be queen since such is its importance to the Zerg econ, it is practically on the same level as a worker unit and so it should really be excluded for just the same reason workers would be excluded. After that it would be oracle, as no other unit come close to matching it's scanner sweep like abilities for if orbital command counted as a unit, it would be the unit that grants the most for its cost.
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Why are people including macro mechanics as units that give utiltiy rofl. Mules/Queens are macro mechanics, why even bother discussing or posting about "which unit gives the most utility" if you're going to all be sardonic and post "hehe SCVS give the most utility cuz they let u mine which lets u build the other units hehe im so smart"
Vipers beat every single unit in the game in terms of cost efficiency, no other unit is as cost efficient, and can negate almost 5-10x it's supply cost.
I doubt anyone can provide any argument or any other unit that can single handedly have the efficiency a single viper does vs any other unit in the game.
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On September 03 2018 08:55 avilo wrote:
Why are people including macro mechanics as units that give utiltiy rofl. Mules/Queens are macro mechanics, why even bother discussing or posting about "which unit gives the most utility" if you're going to all be sardonic and post "hehe SCVS give the most utility cuz they let u mine which lets u build the other units hehe im so smart"
Vipers beat every single unit in the game in terms of cost efficiency, no other unit is as cost efficient, and can negate almost 5-10x it's supply cost.
I doubt anyone can provide any argument or any other unit that can single handedly have the efficiency a single viper does vs any other unit in the game.
Probably because the queen is just that damn good. It's not just a macro mechanic. It does everything for zerg. It is literally the best zerg unit(and arguably the best unit in the game) and it is severely underpriced for what it offers.
Attacker? Check
Defender? Check
allows zerg to instantly remax late game? check
prevent your units from dying with heals? check
prevent your buildings from dying with heals? check
creep vision(closest thing to legal maphack lol)? check
And it ONLY COSTS 150 MINERALS! That's it! The unit that offers the most benefits in the game ONLY COSTS 150 MINERALS! This goes against the very basics of fundamental RTS design.
Queens should cost 150 minerals + 25-50 gas each and require 3 or 4 supply instead of just 2. It's a damn spellcaster that can also attack ground/air units for ONLY 150 minerals and 2 supply. IT DOES NOT EVEN COST LARVAE LOL. That's ridiculous.
Spellcasters have always required a prerequisite building AND a gas cost. The queen shouldn't be any different, macro mechanic or not. Why? Because it's still an attacker/defender and can cast spells(@ tier 1 FFS).
I am 100% willing to bet that if queens also had a gas cost and an increased requirement in supply, the best foreigner at any given time won't always be a zerg(yes, the best foreigner at any given time has pretty much always been a zerg with very few exceptions being Jinro/HuK/Neeb/Thorzain). GEE, I WONDER.....
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queen, base defense, macro mechanic creep spread, healing, map vision, great anti air range only costs minerals and is fairly tanky.
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Canada8989 Posts
On September 03 2018 08:55 avilo wrote:
Why are people including macro mechanics as units that give utiltiy rofl. Mules/Queens are macro mechanics, why even bother discussing or posting about "which unit gives the most utility" if you're going to all be sardonic and post "hehe SCVS give the most utility cuz they let u mine which lets u build the other units hehe im so smart"
Vipers beat every single unit in the game in terms of cost efficiency, no other unit is as cost efficient, and can negate almost 5-10x it's supply cost.
I doubt anyone can provide any argument or any other unit that can single handedly have the efficiency a single viper does vs any other unit in the game.
I would say the big "problem" with the viper is the unit availability, of course by itself isn't that expensive compare to his usefulness, but the tech associate with it is pretty expensive and it take a lot of time to go there. While it may be the best late game unit, it's only a late game unit.
Other units are more versatile then the viper, for example oracle, another unit frequently mention here, can be build at almost any point of any game and it will be a very good unit, early game it's a deadly offensive weapon as well as being a good defensive unit and in mid and late game it's one of the best scout in the game with his revelation and it's speed.
Vipers are very good but there are a lot of game situation, or build in which trying to get vipers are detrimental, if you want to it hit timing or play against a very aggressive opponent for example, but you can build a stargate and an oracle in almost every game and fit in any style of play.
Depend how you understand the question I guess
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On September 03 2018 09:49 ReachTheSky wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2018 08:55 avilo wrote:
Why are people including macro mechanics as units that give utiltiy rofl. Mules/Queens are macro mechanics, why even bother discussing or posting about "which unit gives the most utility" if you're going to all be sardonic and post "hehe SCVS give the most utility cuz they let u mine which lets u build the other units hehe im so smart"
Vipers beat every single unit in the game in terms of cost efficiency, no other unit is as cost efficient, and can negate almost 5-10x it's supply cost.
I doubt anyone can provide any argument or any other unit that can single handedly have the efficiency a single viper does vs any other unit in the game. Probably because the queen is just that damn good. It's not just a macro mechanic. It does everything for zerg. It is literally the best zerg unit(and arguably the best unit in the game) and it is severely underpriced for what it offers. Attacker? Check Defender? Check allows zerg to instantly remax late game? check prevent your units from dying with heals? check prevent your buildings from dying with heals? check creep vision(closest thing to legal maphack lol)? check And it ONLY COSTS 150 MINERALS! That's it! The unit that offers the most benefits in the game ONLY COSTS 150 MINERALS! This goes against the very basics of fundamental RTS design. Queens should cost 150 minerals + 25-50 gas each and require 3 or 4 supply instead of just 2. It's a damn spellcaster that can also attack ground/air units for ONLY 150 minerals and 2 supply. IT DOES NOT EVEN COST LARVAE LOL. That's ridiculous. Spellcasters have always required a prerequisite building AND a gas cost. The queen shouldn't be any different, macro mechanic or not. Why? Because it's still an attacker/defender and can cast spells(@ tier 1 FFS). I am 100% willing to bet that if queens also had a gas cost and an increased requirement in supply, the best foreigner at any given time won't always be a zerg(yes, the best foreigner at any given time has pretty much always been a zerg with very few exceptions being Jinro/HuK/Neeb/Thorzain). GEE, I WONDER.....
Queen costing gas will not and should not happen.
This would kill zerg early defence/delay the third.
It is still a defensive macro based unit, except for very specific all in.
Anyway I think this is going off topic.
I am probably going for WOL infestors. Now I am getting all nostaglic about archon toilet, mass ghost.
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On September 03 2018 09:49 ReachTheSky wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2018 08:55 avilo wrote:
Why are people including macro mechanics as units that give utiltiy rofl. Mules/Queens are macro mechanics, why even bother discussing or posting about "which unit gives the most utility" if you're going to all be sardonic and post "hehe SCVS give the most utility cuz they let u mine which lets u build the other units hehe im so smart"
Vipers beat every single unit in the game in terms of cost efficiency, no other unit is as cost efficient, and can negate almost 5-10x it's supply cost.
I doubt anyone can provide any argument or any other unit that can single handedly have the efficiency a single viper does vs any other unit in the game. Probably because the queen is just that damn good. It's not just a macro mechanic. It does everything for zerg. It is literally the best zerg unit(and arguably the best unit in the game) and it is severely underpriced for what it offers. Attacker? Check Defender? Check allows zerg to instantly remax late game? check prevent your units from dying with heals? check prevent your buildings from dying with heals? check creep vision(closest thing to legal maphack lol)? check And it ONLY COSTS 150 MINERALS! That's it! The unit that offers the most benefits in the game ONLY COSTS 150 MINERALS! This goes against the very basics of fundamental RTS design. Queens should cost 150 minerals + 25-50 gas each and require 3 or 4 supply instead of just 2. It's a damn spellcaster that can also attack ground/air units for ONLY 150 minerals and 2 supply. IT DOES NOT EVEN COST LARVAE LOL. That's ridiculous. Spellcasters have always required a prerequisite building AND a gas cost. The queen shouldn't be any different, macro mechanic or not. Why? Because it's still an attacker/defender and can cast spells(@ tier 1 FFS). I am 100% willing to bet that if queens also had a gas cost and an increased requirement in supply, the best foreigner at any given time won't always be a zerg(yes, the best foreigner at any given time has pretty much always been a zerg with very few exceptions being Jinro/HuK/Neeb/Thorzain). GEE, I WONDER.....
You don't even mention the 8 air range it has. A queen is a shield battery (transfuse), observer (cloaked vision tumors), chrono (inject), zealot (tanky), and two marines (dps). There is no right answer to this thread other than queen.
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Of course if Blizzard never designed it so Zerg doesn't have an anti air unit before lair tech other than the queen, or that the zergling is so weak relative to bw, the queen wouldn't be nearly so important as a defensive early game unit.
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Besides the Queen, the most important spell-casters come to mind, like High Templars and Vipers, maybe?
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EPT
