EPTNew Versus Maps for Season 3, 2018 - Page 3
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hegemony
27 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On August 07 2018 13:43 hegemony wrote: Is it just me or does Blueshift seem like a pretty safe/generic LOTV map? Is there something I'm missing? I want to like the new maps but just played on that and it feels like every other basic map I've played lately. Yeah, it's (by the mapmaker's own admission) a rotated variation on Catalyst with some elements of Frozen Temple thrown in. | ||
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uummpaa
238 Posts
i always like a mappool with one or two "stupid" maps. while for a player of my level it is somewhat funny (some would say infuriating) to see what we noobs come up with, and at the pro lvl you get some pretty entertaining maps here and there (a lot of bad ones as well tbh). redshift for example gave as a few crazy basetrades, maru vs soo was the most recent example. And we should not forget, that we can get bad matches on the more standard maps as well. but i think blizzard had the blizzcon in mind with that pool One thing i always wonder: why aren't there more 3 player maps? the spawning issue is not as bad as for 4 player maps, but it still would result in different playstyles. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On August 07 2018 14:19 uummpaa wrote: tbh, i always like a mappool with one or two "stupid" maps. while for a player of my level it is somewhat funny (some would say infuriating) to see what we noobs come up with, and at the pro lvl you get some pretty entertaining maps here and there (a lot of bad ones as well tbh). redshift for example gave as a few crazy basetrades, maru vs soo was the most recent example. And we should not forget, that we can get bad matches on the more standard maps as well. but i think blizzard had the blizzcon in mind with that pool One thing i always wonder: why aren't there more 3 player maps? the spawning issue is not as bad as for 4 player maps, but it still would result in different playstyles. Three players maps are difficult to make due to symmetry issues. Ramps have to be at multiples of 45 degrees, mineral lines too to some extent, and while trying to maintain all that pseudo-symmetry you have to make sure the spacing and airpsace is approximately the same. The three player maps that we have had have only been mostly successful with that. And three player maps do still to some extent suffer from the spawn issues (though to a much lesser degree). | ||
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uummpaa
238 Posts
On August 07 2018 14:40 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Three players maps are difficult to make due to symmetry issues. Ramps have to be at multiples of 45 degrees, mineral lines too to some extent, and while trying to maintain all that pseudo-symmetry you have to make sure the spacing and airpsace is approximately the same. The three player maps that we have had have only been mostly successful with that. And three player maps do still to some extent suffer from the spawn issues (though to a much lesser degree). i'm no mapmaker, so sorry if i'm wrong with my basic math: why not just make a "pizza-slice" with an inside angle 120° and take it times three, and fill the area required to make the map square with air(-blockers if needed) then it should be perfectly symmetrical. as for the spawning issue: it still might be there, but i think the whole point of some maps should be to add a little extra challange, and why not with spawns (terrans for example have a little RNG in every map with their addons) and doesn't broodwar use them quite a bit? as far as ramps and so on go the requirements should me somewhat the same or is there something i miss? | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On August 07 2018 15:09 uummpaa wrote: and doesn't broodwar use them quite a bit? as far as ramps and so on go the requirements should me somewhat the same or is there something i miss? Brood War is a completely different game and the 2 shouldn't ever be compared when it comes to maps. Also, BW does use ramps that are a multiple of 30 degrees which, besides different absolutely different expanding patterns and strength of particular types of units, is a big help with symmetry. The asymmetry for example is a gamebreaker. You can't compare being unable to wallground wall with a rax, because of the add-on position to being close to an unwinnable spot when the game starts because you spawned on the wrong side of your enemy (and it happened on MGR and Catallena which were the 2 3p maps we had in HotS map pools). | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On August 07 2018 15:09 uummpaa wrote: i'm no mapmaker, so sorry if i'm wrong with my basic math: why not just make a "pizza-slice" with an inside angle 120° and take it times three, and fill the area required to make the map square with air(-blockers if needed) then it should be perfectly symmetrical. as for the spawning issue: it still might be there, but i think the whole point of some maps should be to add a little extra challange, and why not with spawns (terrans for example have a little RNG in every map with their addons) and doesn't broodwar use them quite a bit? as far as ramps and so on go the requirements should me somewhat the same or is there something i miss? Three player maps are essentially made of three 120 degree slices, and often do have air blockers (for example Merry Go Round does) to make sure the airspace is the same (Catallena didn't and had issues with airspace). Airblockers are somewhat buggy though. And this doesn't fix the bigger issue that ramps would still have to point at multiples of 45 degrees and can't simply be mirrored, and mineral lines likewise have to be composed of 1x2 patches and can't simply be rotated which means you have to be careful with the amount of space behind them, and the distances etc. Brood War has had some three player maps (though not that many in the grand scheme of things), but many of them aren't very symmetrical (for example Rush Hour). Because of bad pathing and how units move in BW, maps there are a lot more tolerant of asymmetry imo. None of these problems I mention are insurmountable, but they do mean that most mapmakers avoid three player maps. Timmay (mapmaker of Catallena and Dreamcatcher) does like three player maps (and is probably the only mapmaker who does) and did submit Marshmallow to the contest, but in general 3p maps are far and few between. | ||
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uummpaa
238 Posts
On August 07 2018 15:29 Ej_ wrote: ... Brood War is a completely different game and the 2 shouldn't ever be compared when it comes to maps. Also, BW does use ramps that are a multiple of 30 degrees which, besides different absolutely different expanding patterns and strength of particular types of units, is a big help with symmetry. The asymmetry for example is a gamebreaker. You can't compare being unable to wallground wall with a rax, because of the add-on position to being close to an unwinnable spot when the game starts because you spawned on the wrong side of your enemy (and it happened on MGR and Catallena which were the 2 3p maps we had in HotS map pools). first of all: no, they are not COMPLETELY different games, both are RTS and have similiar ideas behind it, i don't see a reason why ideas from one game can't be used in the other one, with some modification of course, since they are still different games, i don't argue there. as for the degrees of the ramps, are those given for the games, or can they be changed if one wants to do that? if not, thats a pretty good reason against 3 player maps i agree. as for catallena: i just looked at the winrates on liquipedia, and they didn't look to onesideded there, and i can recall having good games there for myself as well (which doesn't say too much). | ||
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uummpaa
238 Posts
On August 07 2018 15:41 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Three player maps are essentially made of three 120 degree slices, and often do have air blockers (for example Merry Go Round does) to make sure the airspace is the same (Catallena didn't and had issues with airspace). Airblockers are somewhat buggy though. And this doesn't fix the bigger issue that ramps would still have to point at multiples of 45 degrees and can't simply be mirrored, and mineral lines likewise have to be composed of 1x2 patches and can't simply be rotated which means you have to be careful with the amount of space behind them, and the distances etc. Brood War has had some three player maps (though not that many in the grand scheme of things), but many of them aren't very symmetrical (for example Rush Hour). Because of bad pathing and how units move in BW, maps there are a lot more tolerant of asymmetry imo. None of these problems I mention are insurmountable, but they do mean that most mapmakers avoid three player maps. Timmay (mapmaker of Catallena and Dreamcatcher) does like three player maps (and is probably the only mapmaker who does) and did submit Marshmallow to the contest, but in general 3p maps are far and few between. i see, thanks for the detailed answer. and if Timmay reads this: keep on with them, there are still players who like 3 player maps ^^ | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On August 07 2018 15:51 uummpaa wrote: first of all: no, they are not COMPLETELY different games, both are RTS and have similiar ideas behind it, i don't see a reason why ideas from one game can't be used in the other one, with some modification of course, since they are still different games, i don't argue there. as for the degrees of the ramps, are those given for the games, or can they be changed if one wants to do that? if not, thats a pretty good reason against 3 player maps i agree. as for catallena: i just looked at the winrates on liquipedia, and they didn't look to onesideded there, and i can recall having good games there for myself as well (which doesn't say too much). Ramp angles are given and can't be changed. And winrates aren't broken down by spawn, so they won't tell you that player X got screwed over in ZvZ because they got the bottom spawn where the natural can't be walled-off, or that player Y got dropped to high heaven since they got the spawn with too much airspace etc. | ||
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-NegativeZero-
United States2142 Posts
SC2's editor is much more capable by default, but since the engine is fully 3D and not tile/sprite based, it's impossible to pull off the same kind of hacks you can with BW. | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
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washikie
United States752 Posts
On August 07 2018 13:43 hegemony wrote: Is it just me or does Blueshift seem like a pretty safe/generic LOTV map? Is there something I'm missing? I want to like the new maps but just played on that and it feels like every other basic map I've played lately. Yeah the high ground low ground with rocks is kind of interesting since it uses that feature with a different lay out than other maps, the player who pushes low ground will have some interesting option to maneuver, also has somewhat large airspace, but other than that not a whole lot of new or interesting stuff. I would like the map a lot more if it did not have the lowground fairly secure 5th base for both players and instead player would have to take an edge or center base to get a 5th base up so we would see a bit more midgame action. As it stands I think this map will lead to a fair number of 5 base on 5 base into big air blob kind of games and also a fair number of 3 base timing games, it's probably just a little to straight forward since there's not many features that promote interesting strats on this map. | ||
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