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On August 02 2018 19:45 Hok wrote:
This article is doing quite the opposite than what is needed for this community. While we can all bitch and moan at certain things in this game and certainly industry, there is so much more support that is needed. While I think analysis and criticism is needed for some improvement, high level and valued analysis and criticism is followed by suggestion and supporting evidence and solutions. This article is just a rantfest where none is needed. I don't think what our game needs improvement is in this article AT ALL. not only is it not valuable, it destroys any goodwill we need for our game to succeed in the long run.
How about using insights to help in:
- long term business models for BW/SC2 for increased viewership / money making
- player support systems and career management
- content partnerships and tiered content
... to name a few.
disappointed in this article and even having this on this great site.
Blind fanboyism and dickriding is certainly not the path to growth or greatness.
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On August 02 2018 21:27 207aicila wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2018 19:45 Hok wrote:
This article is doing quite the opposite than what is needed for this community. While we can all bitch and moan at certain things in this game and certainly industry, there is so much more support that is needed. While I think analysis and criticism is needed for some improvement, high level and valued analysis and criticism is followed by suggestion and supporting evidence and solutions. This article is just a rantfest where none is needed. I don't think what our game needs improvement is in this article AT ALL. not only is it not valuable, it destroys any goodwill we need for our game to succeed in the long run.
How about using insights to help in:
- long term business models for BW/SC2 for increased viewership / money making
- player support systems and career management
- content partnerships and tiered content
... to name a few.
disappointed in this article and even having this on this great site. Blind fanboyism and dickriding is certainly not the path to growth or greatness.
I would agree with you... who is fanboying and dickriding? ... Do you see any pressing issues in that article... please do expand on your insight.
The casting in our game is not Top tier Worldclass. so what... do you know how much these people get paid? I work in a well paying job and would love to get involved in this scene, but I can't give up the money. This is why I am so grateful for not only the casters but also players, organizers, companies and sponsors. Though its not NFL, NASCAR level production, casting, blah blah... think about what this stupid article and your post says to people trying their best with the limited resources (not just money, but time, training, mentors, consultants, etc) are doing to help this scene. people come and go... but most of our casters have been there hanging in there ... yea punk if you call that dick riding, I do it all day... to have the scene we have today...
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On August 02 2018 22:01 Hok wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2018 21:27 207aicila wrote:On August 02 2018 19:45 Hok wrote:
This article is doing quite the opposite than what is needed for this community. While we can all bitch and moan at certain things in this game and certainly industry, there is so much more support that is needed. While I think analysis and criticism is needed for some improvement, high level and valued analysis and criticism is followed by suggestion and supporting evidence and solutions. This article is just a rantfest where none is needed. I don't think what our game needs improvement is in this article AT ALL. not only is it not valuable, it destroys any goodwill we need for our game to succeed in the long run.
How about using insights to help in:
- long term business models for BW/SC2 for increased viewership / money making
- player support systems and career management
- content partnerships and tiered content
... to name a few.
disappointed in this article and even having this on this great site. Blind fanboyism and dickriding is certainly not the path to growth or greatness. I would agree with you... who is fanboying and dickriding? ... Do you see any pressing issues in that article... please do expand on your insight. The casting in our game is not Top tier Worldclass. so what... do you know how much these people get paid? I work in a well paying job and would love to get involved in this scene, but I can't give up the money. This is why I am so grateful for not only the casters but also players, organizers, companies and sponsors. Though its not NFL, NASCAR level production, casting, blah blah... think about what this stupid article and your post says to people trying their best with the limited resources (not just money, but time, training, mentors, consultants, etc) are doing to help this scene. people come and go... but most of our casters have been there hanging in there ... yea punk if you call that dick riding, I do it all day... to have the scene we have today...
This article has little to nothing to do with production value, business models etc. I don't think that you are getting the point here. Esports casting across the board falls into some of the traps that the article spells out, and the article is just pointing out some of these flaws in hopes of influencing improvements. It's less a cry for a solution and ways of fixing it and more just identifying an issue that some viewers see in hopes of bringing it to light. You're taking it too seriously.
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Austria24422 Posts
On August 02 2018 21:02 Kavax wrote:Artosis revealed on the Pylon that Olli had personal beef with him in the past. I'm not sure if Olli is aware of what motivates his mind.
I've never had personal beef with Artosis, and he doesn't say that either.
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game>players>fans>casters>writers .. this article tries it's best (dare I say it's very best) in trying to swap casters and writers.. but comes off as jealousy imo
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On August 03 2018 03:10 Ignorant prodigy wrote:
game>players>fans>casters>writers .. this article tries it's best (dare I say it's very best) in trying to swap casters and writers.. but comes off as jealousy imo
Jealousy lol, that's quite the reach
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On August 03 2018 01:07 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2018 21:02 Kavax wrote:Artosis revealed on the Pylon that Olli had personal beef with him in the past. I'm not sure if Olli is aware of what motivates his mind. I've never had personal beef with Artosis, and he doesn't say that either.
He did say that he doesn't read your articles because of some previous drama. To some that might count as minor, low quality beef
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Austria24422 Posts
On August 03 2018 04:15 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2018 01:07 Olli wrote:On August 02 2018 21:02 Kavax wrote:Artosis revealed on the Pylon that Olli had personal beef with him in the past. I'm not sure if Olli is aware of what motivates his mind. I've never had personal beef with Artosis, and he doesn't say that either. He did say that he doesn't read your articles because of some previous drama. To some that might count as minor, low quality beef
Bit of a difference to say he doesn't read my articles because of that Reddit thread thing, and me having personal beef with him.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
A needless criticism, hyperbolized for clicks. Quite a disappointment to see this on TL.
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Really dislike this article. Feels counter-productive in it's intent, and the criticisms directed at Tastosis are blown way out of proportion. Brownbear's article was amazing.
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best caster ever was chill
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The problem with the article is the author only uses an extremely small target sample, and within that target sample, only cast which perfectly align with the point he's trying to promote. So at first glance it appears the content provided is spot on. The problem? We are only being allowed to see a tiny, tiny,tiny portion of the painting, not the entire canvas.
It's almost like someone in a debate using false dichotomies and straw mans. It seems rather disingenuous to set up a Test which can Only provide a predetermined result. Imo, if you take every cast from Tastosis/Artosis in their totality and in the sum of all the parts you'll come to a drastically different conclusion.
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+1 for the response article by Brownbear. In depth (and the instances he counted could even be more detailed), could almost count as a scientific debate.
Didn't get to listen to the comments on the pylon yet though.
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OMG Thanks for the spoiler for Mvp vs Squirtle! asdasdasd all that.
Joke aside, that was a good read.
Typically, I actually disliked the whole Dark VS Byun final partly because of all the hyped that was built on meaningless moments. Many times they emphasised actions Dark lost to that are the same than the I would lose to in D1 ladder at the time. So if the viewer is not much into the bigger picture as of why it came down to this action for those players in those conditions, then such commentaries would mean that Byun is probably better than D1, and Dark quite close to my level. Not the best description of the two blizzcon final players.
I had another point in mind, but I forgot it and work is calling, so act as if there were a second points (and you can randomly chose whether you agree or not).
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Czech Republic12132 Posts
While I agree and this irritates me I must partially agree with Artosis on the Pylon show(BTW is it just me or was he really salty? Was listening to it today at work and got that impression) that he's not doing it that much and that he's trying to do it in the context. While I don't agree with him on some occassiions it's his opinion so I don't care that much(I dare to say that we had better RO32 with KeSPA teams)
Anyway, I wanted to give it my support as I don't have the login information at work 
Edit> Actually got kinda funny on TPS and their defensive posture and not admitting what they're doing, but I wasn't expecting any different reaction from casters 
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They did make some good points on the Pylon Show. Most casual fans don't care for a deep analysis and tournaments as a show benefit from a lot of the bold statements casters make.
The only part I still disagree with (they didn't really touch on this on the show) is giving forced or incorrect tags and storylines to players. Artosis says they put in effort to make the players interesting and good for viewers to follow, but it's unnecessary to make claims that untrue.
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Are there any casual fans left in SC2? Seriously though what with the beef Aretosis has with Olli, Arrtosis just comes across as a drama queen. Casters have long ago occupied the top position of importance in the game anyways.
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Czech Republic12132 Posts
On August 04 2018 02:12 Fango wrote:
They did make some good points on the Pylon Show. Most casual fans don't care for a deep analysis and tournaments as a show benefit from a lot of the bold statements casters make.
The only part I still disagree with (they didn't really touch on this on the show) is giving forced or incorrect tags and storylines to players. Artosis says they put in effort to make the players interesting and good for viewers to follow, but it's unnecessary to make claims that untrue.
But they actually didn't touch it properly. The same way they moved around the topic of foreigners taking Korean money but ignored it via "they are not taking that much money, so it's good" while we are not geting new Korean blood into SC2 and the ro32 is year to year worse. But Artosis will say(and I don't buy he's serious) that that's the best ro32 ever. While in the history we had 20 players who were ro16 caliber, now we say GSL starts with ro16...
I'm not sure if Blizzard don't want these talks(and I guess it's partially that, because negative topics are not good for the SC2 scene), but unless we address some issues we may find out that there's no Korean scene at all. And the army call is nigh for MANY players.
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So, instead of bashing either side, we could do what brownbear tried and actually analyze casts of high profile matches.
Obviously it can be bad to make hyperboles - but the question is, if this really is a common thing that happens very often - we'd rather need some data to decide that than just ride on a uncertain feeling. At the same time casters could easily try to marginalize such phrases so that they'd become even more seldom.
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On August 04 2018 05:03 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2018 02:12 Fango wrote:
They did make some good points on the Pylon Show. Most casual fans don't care for a deep analysis and tournaments as a show benefit from a lot of the bold statements casters make.
The only part I still disagree with (they didn't really touch on this on the show) is giving forced or incorrect tags and storylines to players. Artosis says they put in effort to make the players interesting and good for viewers to follow, but it's unnecessary to make claims that untrue. But they actually didn't touch it properly. The same way they moved around the topic of foreigners taking Korean money but ignored it via "they are not taking that much money, so it's good" while we are not geting new Korean blood into SC2 and the ro32 is year to year worse. But Artosis will say(and I don't buy he's serious) that that's the best ro32 ever. While in the history we had 20 players who were ro16 caliber, now we say GSL starts with ro16... I'm not sure if Blizzard don't want these talks(and I guess it's partially that, because negative topics are not good for the SC2 scene), but unless we address some issues we may find out that there's no Korean scene at all. And the army call is nigh for MANY players.
While it's understandable that Blizzard (and indeed almost any company, especially the large corporate ones) will always bury its head in the sand when it comes to such issues, what's always been the most concerning to me is that there are still absolute goons around here downplaying said issues or even defending them, and advocating that everyone should just shut up and "not be so negative" because otherwise it's just hurting the game. Because things surely can and will improve without criticism, lol.
That's what boggles my mind. TeamLiquid isn't perfect, but the more time passes the more it feels like one of the few remaining good internet forums, at least of such a large size. We're not GameFAQs, we're not NeoGaffe, we're not Leddit. And yet there are still people of dubious intentions or dubious intellect always claiming that things are good, and things are on the up and up, and Blizzard knows best, and if you want what's good for the game stop complaining etc. Quite a shame honestly, they try to silence criticism and more and more people flock to playing or watching other games instead.
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EPT
