EPTThe Best Article in the World - Page 6
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DSK
England1110 Posts
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zealotstim
United States455 Posts
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Creager
Germany1923 Posts
On July 27 2018 11:21 BisuDagger wrote: The best part about the hype is that my wife actually tires of hearing it and all the hyperbole when I've got the games on the TV. She definitely has her preference in SC2 casters for the very reasons in this article lol. Although some of her caster bias may come from her attraction to Germans (quarter German myself  ) So maybe it is good for new comers, but it can have negative impact on those who hang out with us as we watch.She must’ve been sad af when Khaldor left for Heroes of the Storm. | ||
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Creager
Germany1923 Posts
On July 27 2018 23:44 zealotstim wrote: I just wanna hear Tastosis laugh at each other's jokes and imagine how cool it would be to be friends with them. To be perfectly honest, I love them for their humor and the casual banter more than for ingame knowledge and analysis, and I totally agree with you :D | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19345 Posts
On July 27 2018 22:18 Bijan wrote: I was actually curious what some of the Brood War veterans thought about their casting style. As someone who was introduced to esports with SC2 they have made me fall in love with competitive BW. I can't play at all, I don't understand the intricacies beyond what they share with me, but the game is so beautiful and the skills of the players are so amazing that the ASL and KSL now have become my favorite esports broadcasts to watch. I don't know if in depth analysis would be something I would appreciate more or if it would have pushed me away. Something that I think is left out of the discussion is that perhaps more hype is needed in SC2 because the observing interface gives us so much detail. It's been mentioned before, but the suspense in BW and the narratives within individual games are at a completely different level than in SC2 because of how little information you have while watching. This might only be a minor factor but I believe it actually makes the caster's job harder in SC2 because the interface does a lot of the work for them. The second half of the article concerning oversimplification might be the answer to this issue though. It might be even more important to paint a broader narrative of the player's skills and their previous results if you have less tools to build a narrative in each series. The finer details of what makes them fun to listen to is that unless the game is super standard, they are actually very scientific about their casting. Despite Brood War being around so long, the slightest variations get your mind going, "wait a second, I don't see a spire. What is the players motive now?" And then the two of the pull each other deeper into trying to discover why this nuance is so impactful. To me, I personally love that they sound like youth on a search to discover something new. That's why I love casting Brood War too. By the fifth game in a best of five, I've learned so much about each player and how they define their matchup by the end of the series and I'm left thinking about it for days afterward. (You can see my understanding grow so much over these five games ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/prech/files/Misc_Icons/YT.gif){kind=icon} ) . I think tastosis get drawn in this way too. | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On July 27 2018 22:22 The_Red_Viper wrote: I like how people are defending it as "hype", well yes ofc it is used to hype things up but there would be a lot of possible techniques between "this game is shit" and "this is the best game ever" to generate excitement. Is it really too much to ask to get it a little more nuanced? i think you're missing the finer point here, which is that HYPE is designed to attract non-hardcore viewers. people who love starcraft are very likely to watch games for the players and the tournaments whether the caster is an incredible analyst or not. i would be really shocked, though, if every single major SC2 caster who has worked major tournaments hadn't been heavily coached to introduce elements of "hype" and making games seem close when they're over as a specific measure to draw interest from people who aren't normally into starcraft. it's kind of like how blizzard has to make the game playable for lower league people while simultaneously balancing it at the top levels. a hardcore base can keep a game alive for a long time, but you never stop trying to expand that base, because with no growth anything will die. i'm not making a personal commentary on what style of casting i like or think is "correct," but like i said in my earlier post, everything is driven by money and sponsors, and sponsors don't want to sponsor a game with a hardcore userbase that doesn't get bigger or draw young fans (this is another major point, guys - most of us, i think, are at minimum in our 20s, and younger demographics are highly prized. younger people are more likely to respond to loud and outrageous personalities. just look at youtube!) also, casters are human. it's probably just more fun to hype games up, i'm sure tastosis for example get bored just reciting memorized facts about strategies. to have done the job for so long they must enjoy on some level being entertainers, getting a little loud, using catchphrases, etc. i don't get what people expect casters to do? are they supposed to be stopping and stuttering during games to catch themselves before saying something "hypey," and instead try to come up with another comment on the fly, leaving dead air? again, this is why i don't think people who haven't been on camera as LIVE PRESENTERS should criticize. you don't know what it's actually like until you stand up there with the pressure of keeping the show going | ||
Soularion
Canada2764 Posts
On July 28 2018 00:20 brickrd wrote: i think you're missing the finer point here, which is that HYPE is designed to attract non-hardcore viewers. people who love starcraft are very likely to watch games for the players and the tournaments whether the caster is an incredible analyst or not. i would be really shocked, though, if every single major SC2 caster who has worked major tournaments hadn't been heavily coached to introduce elements of "hype" and making games seem close when they're over as a specific measure to draw interest from people who aren't normally into starcraft. it's kind of like how blizzard has to make the game playable for lower league people while simultaneously balancing it at the top levels. a hardcore base can keep a game alive for a long time, but you never stop trying to expand that base, because with no growth anything will die. i'm not making a personal commentary on what style of casting i like or think is "correct," but like i said in my earlier post, everything is driven by money and sponsors, and sponsors don't want to sponsor a game with a hardcore userbase that doesn't get bigger or draw young fans (this is another major point, guys - most of us, i think, are at minimum in our 20s, and younger demographics are highly prized. younger people are more likely to respond to loud and outrageous personalities. just look at youtube!) also, casters are human. it's probably just more fun to hype games up, i'm sure tastosis for example get bored just reciting memorized facts about strategies. to have done the job for so long they must enjoy on some level being entertainers, getting a little loud, using catchphrases, etc. i don't get what people expect casters to do? are they supposed to be stopping and stuttering during games to catch themselves before saying something "hypey," and instead try to come up with another comment on the fly, leaving dead air? again, this is why i don't think people who haven't been on camera as LIVE PRESENTERS should criticize. you don't know what it's actually like until you stand up there with the pressure of keeping the show going The argument is not as black and white as 'hype is bad'. CSGO casters are crazy hype. Melee casters are incredibly hype. Hell, even League casters can get excited pretty well at times. The issue is that, in sc2 in particular, the hype feels undeserved, and it makes me roll my eyes incredibly often to hear some of the stuff I end up hearing. It's just not fun to watch sc2 when every few minutes something flat-out incorrect gets said. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On July 28 2018 00:34 Soularion wrote: The argument is not as black and white as 'hype is bad'. CSGO casters are crazy hype. Melee casters are incredibly hype. Hell, even League casters can get excited pretty well at times. The issue is that, in sc2 in particular, the hype feels undeserved, and it makes me roll my eyes incredibly often to hear some of the stuff I end up hearing. It's just not fun to watch sc2 when every few minutes something flat-out incorrect gets said. Yeah exactly that was the point i was trying to make. This isn't about hype being bad in every case, it is about lazy hype and using the same "the game was never better than now" , "this is the best lategame control we have ever seen", "this might be the best tournament ever", etc for basically every game ever played. For someone who has no idea and only watches this particular game it might work, but if you watch it just a little bit more it gets old extremely fast. There are so many other ways to create excitement and i think it is perfectly fine to call professional casters out for this lazy, uninspired casting. | ||
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RealityTheGreat
China564 Posts
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Bijan
United States286 Posts
On July 28 2018 00:34 Soularion wrote: The argument is not as black and white as 'hype is bad'. CSGO casters are crazy hype. Melee casters are incredibly hype. Hell, even League casters can get excited pretty well at times. The issue is that, in sc2 in particular, the hype feels undeserved, and it makes me roll my eyes incredibly often to hear some of the stuff I end up hearing. It's just not fun to watch sc2 when every few minutes something flat-out incorrect gets said. I don't know you well at all so I might be way off base, but is it possible that you are a very high level SC2 player and not quite as high level at CSGO or Melee? I'm a very average skill level for SC2 and I don't notice too many incorrect assumptions made, which of course could just be that I don't identify them. | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On July 28 2018 00:34 Soularion wrote: The argument is not as black and white as 'hype is bad'. CSGO casters are crazy hype. Melee casters are incredibly hype. Hell, even League casters can get excited pretty well at times. The issue is that, in sc2 in particular, the hype feels undeserved, and it makes me roll my eyes incredibly often to hear some of the stuff I end up hearing. It's just not fun to watch sc2 when every few minutes something flat-out incorrect gets said. nothing you said addresses anything i said though? my point is that the push for more "hype casting" comes from people who are not directly involved in the scene but want to grow it so they can make more money off of it. meaning that leveling critiques at individual casters who are simply expressing their personalities and doing as they're advised has no merit and will have no effect. do you honestly believe in a world where SC2 casters read this article and think "hmm, yeah, perhaps i'm casting wrong. maybe i should listen to this brand new argument about fake hype which has never been brought up before. i'll cast with less fake hype now"? even if it turned out to be false that fake hype is coming from higher-ups at events, i still don't even think that changes anything, and i still don't think a caster who intentionally "fakes hype" would ever stop doing it because an article was written criticizing the practice. like, i'm being sarcastic, but i'm also being serious. i don't see the point of this fake hype hypothesis (hype-othesis?). i wrote a post where i listed and criticized casters once, but it was just my personal opinions, and i didn't have any expectation that those opinions would change the "casting meta" or make some kind of impact on how professional casters do their jobs. i decided to put that post in the blog section because it was ultimately just me talking out my ass about how i feel, and i didn't think a public debate about it would really serve much purpose other than giving people a platform to be haters and nitpickers. i felt the same way about the "caster feedback thread." casters get feedback nonstop every single time they do their jobs. writing it up in paragraphs serious-discourse-style probably just annoys the shit out of them. for that reason i ultimately felt silly about my own caster post and abandoned it viewers like to imagine that because they're the audience therefore it's somehow useful for them to throw hundreds of little opinions at the screen about how presenters talk, how they act, what they look like, etc. but by and large that presenter is going to act however they act when their natural personality is put on camera. needling them about word choices and the volume of their voice is the height of navel-gazing. and this isn't American Idol where if the presenter doesn't poll well he'll be fired and replaced with someone else. the people who cast SC2 are people who have been involved in the scene, are able to carry a show on camera, and are willing to do it | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On July 28 2018 02:14 Bijan wrote: I don't know you well at all so I might be way off base, but is it possible that you are a very high level SC2 player and not quite as high level at CSGO or Melee? I'm a very average skill level for SC2 and I don't notice too many incorrect assumptions made, which of course could just be that I don't identify them. CSGO casters just don't make ridiculous statements like "X is the best EVER" or "this is the best Y ever". They might refer to someone as "one of the greatest of all time", or sometimes as specific player as "the best in the world", but only when it's an entirely justifiable statement. Casters can get hype, it's their job at the end of the day. No one hates hype, or even overhype if the matches being played aren't that great. But I don't see the need for them to make outragous (and simply untrue) statements purely for the sake of it. | ||
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Soularion
Canada2764 Posts
On July 28 2018 02:14 Bijan wrote: I don't know you well at all so I might be way off base, but is it possible that you are a very high level SC2 player and not quite as high level at CSGO or Melee? I'm a very average skill level for SC2 and I don't notice too many incorrect assumptions made, which of course could just be that I don't identify them. I'm honestly a fucking horrible SC2 player, I just pay attention to the scene and can generally tell that, no, this isn't the best tournament ever, no, ByuN doesn't have the best micro ever, etc. CSGO/Melee and even most traditional sports I've watched a lot of don't make assumptions unless they're blatantly obvious and easy to agree with. | ||
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dicey
142 Posts
On July 28 2018 02:34 Fango wrote:ridiculous statements like "X is the best EVER" or "this is the best Y ever". They might refer to someone as "one of the greatest of all time", or sometimes as specific player as "the best in the world", but only when it's an entirely justifiable statement. To be fair, while this might have been the case with GSLs 1 year ago, I believe the tendency is clear towards the latter versions you mentioned as well. WCS Valencia e.g., had (from memory) many "one of the greatest..." SC2 moments. With the entire tournament being extremely hype, there were clear descriptives along the lines of "standout play" or something being his or her "strong suit", rather than total hyperbole. I agree in spirit with OP though, a lot even. To go back to TotalBiscuit's criticism of award shows for example: If there's just an award without a laudatio, that is, without some arguments towards the reason to honour something/someone with a prize, you might as well scratch the entire thing. Same applies here to some extent: If it's difficult to make a case for "best x evaaah" (or sample size is 1, by way of the casted game), better tune it down a notch or two. +1 and *clap* for the linked clips in the OP post by the way. | ||
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KR_4EVR
316 Posts
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Boggyb
2855 Posts
It doesn't help that casting is pretty much only a full time job for Tastosis. Everyone else is either a streamer or a tournament organizer which take time away from sitting down and really analyzing what is going on so that they can talk about a build they might never see again. | ||
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Darth Caedus
United States326 Posts
Such a solid Tenacious D reference........ | ||
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RaiKageRyu
Canada4773 Posts
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11BC2
4 Posts
To be perfectly honest, I love them for their humor and the casual banter more than for ingame knowledge and analysis, and I totally agree with you :D Agreed, however, I'd add that their analysis is quite good, especially when covering original Starcraft. Also, Tastosis is by far and away my favorite duo. Then again, I'm an older guy at almost 45 years of age and have played or followed since the beginning in 1998. Wow, I think this is my first post in 3,4, maybe 5 years? Edit: Says 2 post??? Must have been reset from joining from Twitch? Either way  Anyways, the above is my humble opinion for better or for worse. I'm also inclined to feel this article is more of the same, an opinion piece. | ||
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{ToT}ColmA
Japan3260 Posts
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