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On August 04 2018 05:35 fronkschnonk wrote:So, instead of bashing either side, we could do what brownbear tried and actually analyze casts of high profile matches. Obviously it can be bad to make hyperboles - but the question is, if this really is a common thing that happens very often - we'd rather need some data to decide that than just ride on a uncertain feeling. At the same time casters could easily try to marginalize such phrases so that they'd become even more seldom.
Well it happens often enough that a part of the community is annoyed by it.
You can do statistics all you want, what % of how often they say it is okay but when it actually turns people off from watching then I say there's no need for doing exact statistics how often something is said because it's clearly a problem.
And Olli is by far not the only one who is annoyed by this, I've heard many complaints about those hyperboles for a long time now.
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On August 04 2018 05:35 fronkschnonk wrote:So, instead of bashing either side, we could do what brownbear tried and actually analyze casts of high profile matches. Obviously it can be bad to make hyperboles - but the question is, if this really is a common thing that happens very often - we'd rather need some data to decide that than just ride on a uncertain feeling. At the same time casters could easily try to marginalize such phrases so that they'd become even more seldom.
I could guarantee that the vast majority of the time Tastosis have casted ByuN or Rogue since their big runs they've mentioned them being the greatest ever at something. Hell they'll say it when casting other players even if the games have nothing to do with those players.
Not just ByuN and Rogue either, guys like INno, sOs, Stats etc have been refered to as the greatest at various aspects of the game, but if I'm being honest those are typically more justifiable and deserving statements.
It would take a while to actually do what Brownbear didn't do, and go through the games themselves. Which make up 80-90% of the time casters actually talk. But if people want statistics then it could be done.
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I'm going to comment only on the "hyperbole" aspect, not the less interesting to me "lazy narrative" aspect.
Since about a year or two, my good friend, who watches, and with whom I've watched multiple GSLs and other premier tournaments since 2010 has been, half in jest, calling Artosis and Tasteless by the nickname "The Best Game I've Ever Seen" and has often gotten jokingly angry when I tell him how much I like their commentary. (I sometimes watch 6+ year old Artosis and Tasteless highlight vids from GSL and often listen during downtime in GSL just to the banter/jokes)
Now, I also have to say, that since a couple of months this "best I've ever seen" business has gotten so out of hand in the Artosis and Tasteless commentary that its started to amuse me personally too. When I saw the article I immediately sent it to my friend, and we had a major laugh as its something he's been pointing out forever. Thanks to Olli for reading our minds tbh.
I'm half way through The Pylon, where I feel like this is just concluded to be 'not the case' by Artosis. Well, my friend and I would disagree! Its nothing bad per se, but we've noticed it too, for years now, and it amuses us whenever it happens.
Also, I wouldn't really call it hyperbole, I think, but just a weird shtick/gimmick that stuck on in times of less interest and game knowledge by Tasteless and a change of Artosis' approach from a less of a calm/analytic style, to a more lively one. The reasons or facts are unknown to me, these are just my feelings.
Edit: maybe someone knows this, something that has been in my mind for a while - there's this text under the GSL logo during the broadcasts - "the most competitive 1vs1 game" - whenever I see it, I feel like its very possible that Artosis told the production guys to add it? :D (again, nothing bad, just amusing! just proves the passion tbh)
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very well written, but I think it's a relatively minor issue
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This whole article is an absolute shrine of hypocrisy, love it.
"criminally overlooked IEM Cologne" - hyperbole.
Arguing other players can distract >Stats< Mothership Core and time as well as TY, as well as all the other points that were included in "that" stuff he was refering to, but incompetent journalism leads to misleading the reader who doesn't follow the link to understand this. TY kills 6 probes, first counter-link is 5 probes kills and the 2nd literally has the mothership in the position for the drop, just fails to use overcharge.
As for less is more.
Reducing players to a handful of traits....
I believe you mean emphasizing and highlighting players greatest strengths, so that anyone not obsessively following the scene can at least have a basic grasp of what defines a player.
I'm sure there's more to further dissect from this drivel, but hey better to spend time on something worthwhile.
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On August 10 2018 23:41 Meatbrawl wrote:
This whole article is an absolute shrine of hypocrisy, love it.
"criminally overlooked IEM Cologne" - hyperbole.
Arguing other players can distract >Stats< Mothership Core and time as well as TY, as well as all the other points that were included in "that" stuff he was refering to, but incompetent journalism leads to misleading the reader who doesn't follow the link to understand this. TY kills 6 probes, first counter-link is 5 probes kills and the 2nd literally has the mothership in the position for the drop, just fails to use overcharge.
As for less is more.
Reducing players to a handful of traits....
I believe you mean emphasizing and highlighting players greatest strengths, so that anyone not obsessively following the scene can at least have a basic grasp of what defines a player.
I'm sure there's more to further dissect from this drivel, but hey better to spend time on something worthwhile.
1) Study the term "Retard magnet" and how it was born, who is the parent and how old is it. Maybe then you would understand why this got picked and why it was stupid thing to say.
2) Reducing players to a handful of traits isn't bad per se. The problem is that this leads to lazy casting. I can see why casters try to still uphold the drama in the game, but when they say ByuN is god amongst living in micro after he did a stupid micro mistake, it's stupid. Then it's the time to stop saying it. And that's the problem. The ByuN problem is IMO the biggest to strike as he fell really down but he was still praised for something he wasn't good at (at that time at least). So while I can forgive Tastosis to say "ByuN has worse army but he has micro to win the fights", because any other alternative is similar "ByuN lost, he's trying for impossible"(BTW I don't see anythign wrong on this either, but I believe this is not their style), but they say it after he did several micro mistakes, which is the problem of laziness.
That's how I see it.
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^ I will never forget that TvZ game on frost where byun was multi prong dropping and the zerg was on top of it and ready for it but artosis was clearly blinded by fanboyism and screamed 'OH MY GOD BYUN IS EVERYWHERE' while the observer is showing byuns drops getting killed by queens and spores.
Or how artosis to this day will still insist that byun was the sole reason for reapers being nerfed and that no one else could pull it off despite basic facts like uthermal having won an iem by going proxy 3 rax every single game.
I love artosis but he needs to keep his inner fanboy in check and be more objective sometimes.
Also: while watching serral in gsl vs world recently I was reminded of this thread. I feel like his performance had much less of an impact because of the trend of casting hyperbole recently. Like I didn't feel that serral winning was all that impressive until I thought about it and watched it again. The casters just can't hype something like that when they've desensitized me to their hyperbole in every other cast.
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On August 12 2018 02:52 TheZergishOne wrote:
I love artosis but he needs to keep his inner fanboy in check and be more objective sometimes.
Yea I think that's the most off putting thing about Artosis. It's not necessarily the fanboyish nature of some of his casts (I like that he has strong opinions on players), but the way he arrogantly sticks to his guns about it even when the games don't fit the narrative he's trying to spin.
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It is a small thing, but writing "Imagine being Maru—who spent years winning impossible matches through his superb unit control and ability to take immaculate fights—hearing that ByuN was better at it than you ever were." and criticizing someone else for hyperbole does not fit.
No-one won an impossible match. It might have been an improbable match to win. But not an impossible one. It might have been seemingly or almost impossible, but not quite impossible.
I overall like the Tastosis cast, as it is entertaining, keeps the tension high and tells me about the storylines. It also provides analysis. The three things I don't like when Tastosis cast:
- Calling current strategies metagame or meta. It is now so common hardly anyone thinks about what meta or metagame actually means.
- Calling the smallest area unit a hex. Both SC1 and SC2 use squares. Not hexagons.
- Shouting "HE DID THE IMPOSSIBLE" or something similar when something rather improbable happened.
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One of the reasons why I am so annoyed while watching SC2 streams. And I agree, the best SC2 games were played long ago.
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This article reminds me of that nobody Canadian rapper calling out Eminem on an album and getting his 15 minutes off it.
Hyperbole is used by all sorts of people. In any case, it seems like the GSL Code S Ro16 Group A cast didn't have much of it.
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This is something that has been going on for a long time. Not just recently.
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On August 02 2018 22:26 vult wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2018 22:01 Hok wrote:On August 02 2018 21:27 207aicila wrote:On August 02 2018 19:45 Hok wrote:
This article is doing quite the opposite than what is needed for this community. While we can all bitch and moan at certain things in this game and certainly industry, there is so much more support that is needed. While I think analysis and criticism is needed for some improvement, high level and valued analysis and criticism is followed by suggestion and supporting evidence and solutions. This article is just a rantfest where none is needed. I don't think what our game needs improvement is in this article AT ALL. not only is it not valuable, it destroys any goodwill we need for our game to succeed in the long run.
How about using insights to help in:
- long term business models for BW/SC2 for increased viewership / money making
- player support systems and career management
- content partnerships and tiered content
... to name a few.
disappointed in this article and even having this on this great site. Blind fanboyism and dickriding is certainly not the path to growth or greatness. I would agree with you... who is fanboying and dickriding? ... Do you see any pressing issues in that article... please do expand on your insight. The casting in our game is not Top tier Worldclass. so what... do you know how much these people get paid? I work in a well paying job and would love to get involved in this scene, but I can't give up the money. This is why I am so grateful for not only the casters but also players, organizers, companies and sponsors. Though its not NFL, NASCAR level production, casting, blah blah... think about what this stupid article and your post says to people trying their best with the limited resources (not just money, but time, training, mentors, consultants, etc) are doing to help this scene. people come and go... but most of our casters have been there hanging in there ... yea punk if you call that dick riding, I do it all day... to have the scene we have today... This article has little to nothing to do with production value, business models etc. I don't think that you are getting the point here. Esports casting across the board falls into some of the traps that the article spells out, and the article is just pointing out some of these flaws in hopes of influencing improvements. It's less a cry for a solution and ways of fixing it and more just identifying an issue that some viewers see in hopes of bringing it to light. You're taking it too seriously.
You missed my point entirely. This article is complaining about something that is irrelevant where we should be writing and reading about things more meaningful and pressing like biz models, prod value, etc. not click bait.... look at the title of the article....
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Hyperbole is especially egregious when it focuses on things average spectators understand. Like target firing banelings off creep or if the blink micro would be exaggerated in the Hyun vs herO game. I agree that the spectators can see themselves it was good micro but sometimes when there are things average specatators don't understand how incredible it is then explaining that is fine.
I don't remember which game it was or who he played but one match Maru played he microed an army of ghosts, liberators, marine, marauders and medivacs offensively. He sieged the liberators, stimmed the bio and microed ghosts on the offense basically flawlessly. My jaw was literally dropped, what he did I would barely believe possible with how incredibly well everything was microed bloody simultaneously. In those moments in fine to explain how awesome and incredible his play is, because unless you have tried to micro an army like that in those situations its hard to know just how hard that is.
I want the casts more focused on the overall gameplan of the players, possible mindgames or diversions that are hard to follow. Marine micro going on on screen we can understand ourselves mostly.
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On July 29 2018 22:21 Rodya wrote:
I don't understand why you had to go and imply that DotA 2 casting is better than SC2 casting. That is patently false! DotA 2 casters are the worst in esports, they are unprofessional, they mumble, they can't raise their voices (they sound like my friends in teamspeak when I was in high school!), and are monotone. And then after not hyping anything up for 40 minutes they meekly tell us "...i mean.... there's nothing dire can do to win this game...". Really nothing? Then why are people who are actually good at the game (unlike the casters) still playing, when they can gg out?
Other than that, great post.
SC2 is not even close to most of the casters in dota2. Unless we count humor, I really like the humor of some SC2 casters.
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EPT
