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ByuN and Rogue are proabably the biggest examples I can think of. Just because someone wins blizzcon and prefers a certain style doesn't make them the best in history at it. You never see this in other esports (from what I've seen at least). CSGO casters might say "we've seen incredible shots from X in the past", but not "X is the best awper ever in counterstrike"
There are games when casters will constantly say that ByuN has the best micro ever, how he "breaks the rules" etc, yet he goes on to take nothing but bad or terrible fights until the end of the game. It's so obviously clear that he isn't the best with large army engagements that it becomes off-putting to watch.
Even when he's massively behind Tasteless still seemed to think he can win just because of ByuN micro, although I'm not sure whether he genuinely believes this or is just saying it for the hype.
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Canada2764 Posts
On July 27 2018 01:12 Fango wrote:ByuN and Rogue are proabably the biggest examples I can think of. Just because someone wins blizzcon and prefers a certain style doesn't make them the best in history at it. You never see this in other esports (from what I've seen at least). CSGO casters might say "we've seen incredible shots from X in the past", but not "X is the best awper ever in counterstrike" There are games when casters will constantly say that ByuN has the best micro ever, how he "breaks the rules" etc, yet he goes on to take nothing but bad or sometimes terrible fights until the end of the game. It's so obviously clear that he isn't the best with large army engagements that it becomes off-putting to watch. Even when he's massively behind Tasteless still seemed to think he can win just because of ByuN micro, although I'm not sure whether he genuinely believes this or is just saying it for the hype.
I think the biggest difference is, when casters from other games mention this sort of thing, it's legitimate. Kennys, at one point in history, was pretty unanimously the best awper in csgo. Niko has a very, very good case to be the best person deagling. Shox is known for his one-taps. So if you do hear this sort of thing, it has meaning.
Absolutely nobody I know believes ByuN to be anywhere near the best micro of all time. Not even top 3, in most cases. Nobody believes Rogue is 'the best late game zerg ever'. I've never heard that take, and if I have, it's people parroting Tastosis. That's incredibly annoying to deal with.
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On July 27 2018 00:18 Olli wrote:Most criticism of this I've seen so far says that this isn't something that applies to all casters. While I think that is fair as far as the hyperbole part of this piece is concerned, I think it absolutely applies to the second issue it tackles—lazy narratives. I think most casters are 'guilty' of it, even despite not pushing these on purpose. It's just that narratives originate somewhere, and then sort of become standard repertoire for all casters. I think the problem with that standard issue of caster phrases or player stereotypes is that it often overwrites talking points that are actually more pressing. But I've talked about this in the piece, and I don't know how better to put it than I did there. Show nested quote +Not every victory is a function of a player's most notable trait. If INnoVation uses clever mindgames to take a series, then ditch the ‘mechanical robot’ stereotype and focus on his intelligence instead. If ByuN routinely mows through a pack of slow-banelings off creep, don't try to sell us on his incredible micro. Instead, tell us what he did to force the Zerg to resort to such a desperate move. StarCraft II is an incredibly difficult game, and you’re not giving players the credit they deserve when you don't explore the many other skills they've mastered. My issue with it is that players become these 'one-trick ponies' (ByuN's control, Rogue wants to take every game to lategame, TY does smart tactical moves, INnoVation's mechanics are awesome, etc.). And this is something I still see in almost every tournament.
The lazy narrative point is a good one for sure. While it is definitely true that you can characterize players for certain things in their gameplay, it's probably not too much to ask from a professional caster to put in a little more effort and actually tell us what is going on in the specific instance we are spectating (or even tell us something about the growth of the player in the last few weeks, these guys still try to come up with new things after all)
With that being said i understand why it happens though, some casters cast so many different games and players to the point where it would be a lot to ask to prepare for every single one with new insight, etc. Falling back to some of these narratives seems fine, the density of it might just be a little much these days.
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France12758 Posts
On July 27 2018 01:12 Fango wrote:ByuN and Rogue are proabably the biggest examples I can think of. Just because someone wins blizzcon and prefers a certain style doesn't make them the best in history at it. You never see this in other esports (from what I've seen at least). CSGO casters might say "we've seen incredible shots from X in the past", but not "X is the best awper ever in counterstrike" There are games when casters will constantly say that ByuN has the best micro ever, how he "breaks the rules" etc, yet he goes on to take nothing but bad or terrible fights until the end of the game. It's so obviously clear that he isn't the best with large army engagements that it becomes off-putting to watch. Even when he's massively behind Tasteless still seemed to think he can win just because of ByuN micro, although I'm not sure whether he genuinely believes this or is just saying it for the hype.
In this particular fight it was not really a problem of micro but army composition, and the supply was probably misleading since there wasn't that much in this army at this place.
He might not be the best at engagements, but he is one of the best if not the best at micro on certain micro situations. However that won't always translate well depending on the current meta / patch, etc.
Yet, if you can abuse some units with micro to win games, ByuN does it very well and that's how he won Blizzcon (reaper micro, medivac tank micro, MM micro...), so saying that he has the best micro is not that far fetched since there were not many blizzcon won with such specific abuses afaik?
Plus I don't think large army engagements are suited to assess micro skills, it's often decided by army positionning / army composition / baits / upgrades or whatever, more than "microing well", as in mechanically micro well, where he is very good at.
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most of the points are fair and while i like the extensive clip usage, it could be a bit more diverse :D as others have already pointed out, all but one clip in that first paragraph are from tastosis. there are a lot of casters like rotti, geoff, tod etc. who, i firmly believe intentionally, avoid hyperboles and try to hype things up in proper context by saying things like "this is a really great series" or "serral is playing insanely well" instead of resorting to calling everything the best ever. when they actually do believe that something might be better than everything we've seen before, they make it a discussion about comparably good plays / series'/ tournaments from the past and try to evaluate everything fairly. i think our casters in general handle this "issue" pretty well, but i agree that it can be very annoying when it happens (like with that TY distraction play, lol)
the 2nd part is a bit of a trickier topic. i wish there were more example clips because i dont really feel like i've noticed that a lot. sure, the standard narratives about the players' most evident characteristic will be repeated over and over because thats how you build those, but the only player where i've noticed the casters neglecting his other skills and qualities while overhyping his standout attritbute (micro) is byun. listing all the things a player is good at is just not a comprehensive narrative / overview for a casual viewer and as i said before, i dont think casters fail significantly often to point it out when a player won due to something else than his key strength.
i'll try to pay more attention to these issues in the upcoming events. right now i feel like its annoying when it happens, but it doenst happen often other than maybe during gsl downtime when tastosis try not to only talk about starcraft unrelated stuff. its an intersting topic and a worthy discussion though
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On July 27 2018 01:17 Soularion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2018 01:12 Fango wrote:ByuN and Rogue are proabably the biggest examples I can think of. Just because someone wins blizzcon and prefers a certain style doesn't make them the best in history at it. You never see this in other esports (from what I've seen at least). CSGO casters might say "we've seen incredible shots from X in the past", but not "X is the best awper ever in counterstrike" There are games when casters will constantly say that ByuN has the best micro ever, how he "breaks the rules" etc, yet he goes on to take nothing but bad or sometimes terrible fights until the end of the game. It's so obviously clear that he isn't the best with large army engagements that it becomes off-putting to watch. Even when he's massively behind Tasteless still seemed to think he can win just because of ByuN micro, although I'm not sure whether he genuinely believes this or is just saying it for the hype. I think the biggest difference is, when casters from other games mention this sort of thing, it's legitimate. Kennys, at one point in history, was pretty unanimously the best awper in csgo. Niko has a very, very good case to be the best person deagling. Shox is known for his one-taps. So if you do hear this sort of thing, it has meaning. Absolutely nobody I know believes ByuN to be anywhere near the best micro of all time. Not even top 3, in most cases. Nobody believes Rogue is 'the best late game zerg ever'. I've never heard that take, and if I have, it's people parroting Tastosis. That's incredibly annoying to deal with.
Even so, when KennyS is doing badly or even average, the casters tend to treat him as such. I haven't seen any games like that where they will outright say he's the best awper of all time, that he breaks the rules of cs or anything like that. If he actually pulls of a ridiculous clutch, then they might make references to classic Kenny and hype him up as one of (or the) best in the world.
As far as Rogue having the best lategame ever, I believe it started with Artosis after the one lategame he beat Stats in GSL S3 last year. Rogue went on to lose most his lategames against Dear, herO, Neeb etc right after, and then Artosis would say stuff like "Rogue NEVER loses the lategame" which I find bizarre.
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Canada2764 Posts
On July 27 2018 01:22 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2018 01:12 Fango wrote:ByuN and Rogue are proabably the biggest examples I can think of. Just because someone wins blizzcon and prefers a certain style doesn't make them the best in history at it. You never see this in other esports (from what I've seen at least). CSGO casters might say "we've seen incredible shots from X in the past", but not "X is the best awper ever in counterstrike" There are games when casters will constantly say that ByuN has the best micro ever, how he "breaks the rules" etc, yet he goes on to take nothing but bad or terrible fights until the end of the game. It's so obviously clear that he isn't the best with large army engagements that it becomes off-putting to watch. Even when he's massively behind Tasteless still seemed to think he can win just because of ByuN micro, although I'm not sure whether he genuinely believes this or is just saying it for the hype. In this particular fight it was not really a problem of micro but army composition, and the supply was probably misleading since there wasn't that much in this army at this place. He might not be the best at engagements, but he is one of the best if not the best at micro on certain micro situations. However that won't always translate well depending on the current meta / patch, etc. Yet, if you can abuse some units with micro to win games, ByuN does it very well and that's how he won Blizzcon (reaper micro, medivac tank micro, MM micro...), so saying that he has the best micro is not that far fetched since there were not many blizzcon won with such specific abuses afaik? Plus I don't think large army engagements are suited to assess micro skills, it's often decided by army positionning / army composition / baits / upgrades or whatever, more than "microing well", as in mechanically micro well, where he is very good at.
PartinG and Maru are miles above of what anything ByuN has done with micro. No era has ever featured the sort of abuse-able tricks that this era has; PartinG/Maru won, and won hard, with much more difficult tricks than reaper micro with LotV reaper. Nobody won blizzcon with those sort of micro abuses because the game didn't feature things that are as busted as early LotV reapers, or lifting tanks.
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On July 27 2018 01:22 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2018 01:12 Fango wrote:ByuN and Rogue are proabably the biggest examples I can think of. Just because someone wins blizzcon and prefers a certain style doesn't make them the best in history at it. You never see this in other esports (from what I've seen at least). CSGO casters might say "we've seen incredible shots from X in the past", but not "X is the best awper ever in counterstrike" There are games when casters will constantly say that ByuN has the best micro ever, how he "breaks the rules" etc, yet he goes on to take nothing but bad or terrible fights until the end of the game. It's so obviously clear that he isn't the best with large army engagements that it becomes off-putting to watch. Even when he's massively behind Tasteless still seemed to think he can win just because of ByuN micro, although I'm not sure whether he genuinely believes this or is just saying it for the hype. In this particular fight it was not really a problem of micro but army composition, and the supply was probably misleading since there wasn't that much in this army at this place.
Not just that fight, for the entire rest of that game ByuN takes bad engagements. Sometimes horrific ones that lost him the map. Yet Tastosis kept talking about him being the best with micro. Even when ByuN was behind, Tasteless thinks he's gonna win of control alone, and unless he was watching a different game that's a more than a bold statement to make.
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On July 27 2018 01:28 Fango wrote:
As far as Rogue having the best lategame ever, I believe it started with Artosis after the one lategame he beat Stats in GSL S3 last year. Rogue went on to lose most his lategames against Dear, herO, Neeb etc right after, and then Artosis would say stuff like "Rogue NEVER loses the lategame" which I find bizarre.
Rogue was winning a lot of late game situations in smaller tournaments. I'd have put his win rate at around 50% which is much less than the hype would suggest and something I doubt Tastosis knew since they don't watch non-GSL stuff but still a lot higher than other Zerg players. Possibly because they avoided those situations like the plague while Rogue didn't.
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casters are basically TV presenters, which means their job is to hype the game. they're paid by people who have sponsors who want viewers to be excited to watch. yes, we all love when commentary is realistic and not overhyped, but a commentator's job is literally to be a hype man for the game. not to discount what you've written, but our world is funded by advertisers. i don't agree with it, but it's an ubiquitous reality
also, critiquing casting as someone who doesn't cast is a bit masturbatory by nature, and i say this as someone who has done it before too. they do their best and they say things based on their personalities. it's absurd to expect any caster to ever change how they cast to please fans unless it's obvious things like "don't make jokes about cancer"
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On July 27 2018 01:17 Soularion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2018 01:12 Fango wrote:ByuN and Rogue are proabably the biggest examples I can think of. Just because someone wins blizzcon and prefers a certain style doesn't make them the best in history at it. You never see this in other esports (from what I've seen at least). CSGO casters might say "we've seen incredible shots from X in the past", but not "X is the best awper ever in counterstrike" There are games when casters will constantly say that ByuN has the best micro ever, how he "breaks the rules" etc, yet he goes on to take nothing but bad or sometimes terrible fights until the end of the game. It's so obviously clear that he isn't the best with large army engagements that it becomes off-putting to watch. Even when he's massively behind Tasteless still seemed to think he can win just because of ByuN micro, although I'm not sure whether he genuinely believes this or is just saying it for the hype. Nobody believes Rogue is 'the best late game zerg ever'. I've never heard that take, and if I have, it's people parroting Tastosis. That's incredibly annoying to deal with.
Might be some truth to Rogue's lategame actually being that good. 2012 Symbol, RorO, Soulkey and perhaps prime Dark are the only ones who might've been better than him.
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Canada2764 Posts
On July 27 2018 01:45 brickrd wrote:
casters are basically TV presenters, which means their job is to hype the game. they're paid by people who have sponsors who want viewers to be excited to watch. yes, we all love when commentary is realistic and not overhyped, but a commentator's job is literally to be a hype man for the game. not to discount what you've written, but our world is funded by advertisers. i don't agree with it, but it's an ubiquitous reality
also, critiquing casting as someone who doesn't cast is a bit masturbatory by nature, and i say this as someone who has done it before too. they do their best and they say things based on their personalities. it's absurd to expect any caster to ever change how they cast to please fans unless it's obvious things like "don't make jokes about cancer"
Yes, their job is to hype the game. Which means they should do so as well as possible. There's good hype and bad hype. Also, the 'you can't critique X unless you have already done it' mentality is kinda stupid. Should none of us critique players then, since they're all obviously better than us?
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On July 27 2018 02:02 Soularion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2018 01:45 brickrd wrote:
casters are basically TV presenters, which means their job is to hype the game. they're paid by people who have sponsors who want viewers to be excited to watch. yes, we all love when commentary is realistic and not overhyped, but a commentator's job is literally to be a hype man for the game. not to discount what you've written, but our world is funded by advertisers. i don't agree with it, but it's an ubiquitous reality
also, critiquing casting as someone who doesn't cast is a bit masturbatory by nature, and i say this as someone who has done it before too. they do their best and they say things based on their personalities. it's absurd to expect any caster to ever change how they cast to please fans unless it's obvious things like "don't make jokes about cancer" Yes, their job is to hype the game. Which means they should do so as well as possible. There's good hype and bad hype. Also, the 'you can't critique X unless you have already done it' mentality is kinda stupid. Should none of us critique players then, since they're all obviously better than us?
We shouldn't critique casters, players, the cooks at restaurants, the bagger at the grocery store who doesn't put the bread on top, politicians who spend all their time bickering or sucking up to special interests, the truck driver who cuts us off, the writer who delivers the dumb plot twist, or anyone in a field in which we aren't gainfully employed. After all, since they are paid to do it, they know better and never make mistakes that a layman could identify.
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On July 27 2018 01:53 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2018 01:17 Soularion wrote:On July 27 2018 01:12 Fango wrote:ByuN and Rogue are proabably the biggest examples I can think of. Just because someone wins blizzcon and prefers a certain style doesn't make them the best in history at it. You never see this in other esports (from what I've seen at least). CSGO casters might say "we've seen incredible shots from X in the past", but not "X is the best awper ever in counterstrike" There are games when casters will constantly say that ByuN has the best micro ever, how he "breaks the rules" etc, yet he goes on to take nothing but bad or sometimes terrible fights until the end of the game. It's so obviously clear that he isn't the best with large army engagements that it becomes off-putting to watch. Even when he's massively behind Tasteless still seemed to think he can win just because of ByuN micro, although I'm not sure whether he genuinely believes this or is just saying it for the hype. Nobody believes Rogue is 'the best late game zerg ever'. I've never heard that take, and if I have, it's people parroting Tastosis. That's incredibly annoying to deal with. Might be some truth to Rogue's lategame actually being that good. 2012 Symbol, RorO, Soulkey and perhaps prime Dark are the only ones who might've been better than him.
He's certainly among the best lategame Zergs but to say he's THE best ever you'd have to think with absolute certainty he's heads and shoulders above the players you mentioned and that's just absurd.
Also you forgot Byul who won lategames against one of the most imbalanced compositions in the game's history.
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Thanks for pointing this out, it's one of the reasons my sc2 watching has dropped off.
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On July 26 2018 22:47 Waxangel wrote:I don't particularly agree with all the sentiments here (a good story is WORTH telling over and over again, simple or not), but I was quite entertained by your many, many caster clips. Also, how DARE you not mention the TRUE best game of all time, INnoVation vs TaeJa???
? You mean Life vs Dream?
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On July 27 2018 02:02 Soularion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2018 01:45 brickrd wrote:
casters are basically TV presenters, which means their job is to hype the game. they're paid by people who have sponsors who want viewers to be excited to watch. yes, we all love when commentary is realistic and not overhyped, but a commentator's job is literally to be a hype man for the game. not to discount what you've written, but our world is funded by advertisers. i don't agree with it, but it's an ubiquitous reality
also, critiquing casting as someone who doesn't cast is a bit masturbatory by nature, and i say this as someone who has done it before too. they do their best and they say things based on their personalities. it's absurd to expect any caster to ever change how they cast to please fans unless it's obvious things like "don't make jokes about cancer" Yes, their job is to hype the game. Which means they should do so as well as possible. There's good hype and bad hype. Also, the 'you can't critique X unless you have already done it' mentality is kinda stupid. Should none of us critique players then, since they're all obviously better than us?
There's a way to do it correctly that is respectful.
Calling out that a player misread a situation or didn't react appropriately isn't disrespectful. Saying a player isn't as good as X level competition is something else entirely.
As far as the article is concerned.
I think your second part of the article has some merit. There is a LOT about the game that gets glossed over or not properly respected in most SC2 casts, however as you very accurately pointed out, casters have a duty to cater to newer players or people that don't play altogether. Part of that involves hyping the game up, although I'll agree that saying "the best ever" dilutes the meaning of the phrase if it's used too often.
However I don't think any of that criticism is worth a full article about it. I don't think it's that big of a problem.
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This article is so true, please casters we love you, really, but sometimes... there is too much over hype, for me just rotti does justice. But the best part is not the oeverhype, but the not dumbing down the plays and the mind games or players perception of whats going on i nthe game.
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Thanks for the links to those epic games :D
specifically about that example:
"Instead of asking us to live in a bizarro-world where target-firing slow banelings off creep ..."
I feel like Artosis does put it into the perspective of the game quite ok and the micro was amazing. but I completely get your point. Out of those two casters, I feel like it's typically more the Tasteless who is riding out the hyperbole a bit too much.
When recently I heard more of Noregret in GSL casting, I really came to appreciate his more calm and analytical style.
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EPT
