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Forum Index > SC2 General
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Ryu3600
Profile Joined January 2016
Canada469 Posts
May 11 2018 16:16 GMT
#161
I think marauder change won't be a huge deal in TvZ for the midgame where it stays on HLB/MLB for fights since most Terrans opt to go heavy marine but later as hive comes out or if its vs roach ravager I can see the marauder being more impactful. Regardless Zerg dealt with old marauder in HotS and they will surely deal with it now. The same goes for protoss players.
Maru is the best Terran ever.
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-11 17:07:28
May 11 2018 17:04 GMT
#162
On May 12 2018 01:16 Ryu3600 wrote:
I think marauder change won't be a huge deal in TvZ for the midgame where it stays on HLB/MLB for fights since most Terrans opt to go heavy marine but later as hive comes out or if its vs roach ravager I can see the marauder being more impactful. Regardless Zerg dealt with old marauder in HotS and they will surely deal with it now. The same goes for protoss players.

*cough* MSC *cough*
*cough* old immortal *cough*

Marauders are designed to demolition GW army without proper upgrades(mostly charge) in the early game.

Edit> Although I love the hypocricy.

Look, zerg won't be affected and if they will they will cope. Same for Protoss. How are coping Terrans, how about you would try to cope with something and not whine about buffs?
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
May 11 2018 17:32 GMT
#163
On May 12 2018 01:16 Ryu3600 wrote:
I think marauder change won't be a huge deal in TvZ for the midgame where it stays on HLB/MLB for fights since most Terrans opt to go heavy marine but later as hive comes out or if its vs roach ravager I can see the marauder being more impactful. Regardless Zerg dealt with old marauder in HotS and they will surely deal with it now. The same goes for protoss players.


Roach/Hydra is pretty common as are various Roach/Ravager pressure openings especially with how popular hellion and hellbat stuff is nowadays, so the marauder buff will assuredly change a lot in TvZ. There's a real risk that the marauder change doesn't do enough in TvP, but does too much in TvZ. We'll see.
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55553 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-11 17:58:43
May 11 2018 17:54 GMT
#164
On May 12 2018 02:32 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2018 01:16 Ryu3600 wrote:
I think marauder change won't be a huge deal in TvZ for the midgame where it stays on HLB/MLB for fights since most Terrans opt to go heavy marine but later as hive comes out or if its vs roach ravager I can see the marauder being more impactful. Regardless Zerg dealt with old marauder in HotS and they will surely deal with it now. The same goes for protoss players.


Roach/Hydra is pretty common as are various Roach/Ravager pressure openings especially with how popular hellion and hellbat stuff is nowadays, so the marauder buff will assuredly change a lot in TvZ.

Roach/hydra sees essentially no play against bio as is. And pressure openings are likely less affected by the marauder change than the big dedicated 1/1 roach/ravager timings because you'd rather spend the money on a tank or a banshee than awkward marauders that early in the game (and marines in a bunker work well enough anyway).
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
SCHWARZENEGGER
Profile Joined July 2016
206 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-11 18:01:49
May 11 2018 17:58 GMT
#165
On May 12 2018 02:04 deacon.frost wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2018 01:16 Ryu3600 wrote:
I think marauder change won't be a huge deal in TvZ for the midgame where it stays on HLB/MLB for fights since most Terrans opt to go heavy marine but later as hive comes out or if its vs roach ravager I can see the marauder being more impactful. Regardless Zerg dealt with old marauder in HotS and they will surely deal with it now. The same goes for protoss players.

*cough* MSC *cough*
*cough* old immortal *cough*

Marauders are designed to demolition GW army without proper upgrades(mostly charge) in the early game.

Edit> Although I love the hypocricy.

Look, zerg won't be affected and if they will they will cope. Same for Protoss. How are coping Terrans, how about you would try to cope with something and not whine about buffs?


protoss can defend 2base terran all-in while sitting on 3 bases with 1-1, blink and charge all done by 6;30(just play like hero boy) so it's yet unknown that marauder buff is enough.
nonoes
Profile Joined April 2017
24 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-11 19:51:02
May 11 2018 19:50 GMT
#166

protoss can defend 2base terran all-in while sitting on 3 bases with 1-1, blink and charge all done by 6;30(just play like hero boy) so it's yet unknown that marauder buff is enough.


I assume you're talking about the Hangzhou game 2. inno vs hero
Then that game miss the point completly. It was 1-1-1 drop mine followed by a stim timing vs blink + 3rd base + gate explosion. Mine failed to do damage at all and the medivac was lost in the process.
The stim timing was late with barely any marauder.

after the patch you'll see 3 rax stim timing followed by medivacs and even more bio in protoss face.That kind of build hit 2 min earlier.
Also Rax + techlab first will be a thing again, Polt style.
Lexender
Profile Joined September 2013
Mexico2648 Posts
May 11 2018 19:52 GMT
#167
On May 12 2018 02:04 deacon.frost wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2018 01:16 Ryu3600 wrote:
I think marauder change won't be a huge deal in TvZ for the midgame where it stays on HLB/MLB for fights since most Terrans opt to go heavy marine but later as hive comes out or if its vs roach ravager I can see the marauder being more impactful. Regardless Zerg dealt with old marauder in HotS and they will surely deal with it now. The same goes for protoss players.

*cough* MSC *cough*
*cough* old immortal *cough*

Marauders are designed to demolition GW army without proper upgrades(mostly charge) in the early game.

Edit> Although I love the hypocricy.

Look, zerg won't be affected and if they will they will cope. Same for Protoss. How are coping Terrans, how about you would try to cope with something and not whine about buffs?


*cough* shield batteries*cough*
*cough*stronger zealots and stalkers*cough*
*cough*cheaper charge*cough*

GW armies are much, much stronger than they were in HotS, are they strong enough? Maybe, maybe not.
Also hipocrosy is saying GW armies without proper upgrades, because the whole crux of the problem is that protoss players are ALWAYS ahead on upgrades.
LuuP
Profile Joined March 2017
4 Posts
May 11 2018 20:16 GMT
#168
hi all

in sc2 is balanse - sometchin per other rase have somtching.

extra suply depot should be removed - if another rase forget about
pylon/ovelord - must build them and wait.

skan should be another upgrate (on tech lab/ebay/....) and then you can
use it on cc - they have skan for (almost) free because on 99% build
them on 19 suplay.
if prot/zerg forget lair oversir/spor or robotics observer/cannon and
see DT just gg and left, teran never, bacause have cc
same oracle revelation - another upgrate.
thx!!
SCHWARZENEGGER
Profile Joined July 2016
206 Posts
May 11 2018 20:27 GMT
#169
On May 12 2018 04:50 nonoes wrote:
Show nested quote +

protoss can defend 2base terran all-in while sitting on 3 bases with 1-1, blink and charge all done by 6;30(just play like hero boy) so it's yet unknown that marauder buff is enough.


I assume you're talking about the Hangzhou game 2. inno vs hero
Then that game miss the point completly. It was 1-1-1 drop mine followed by a stim timing vs blink + 3rd base + gate explosion. Mine failed to do damage at all and the medivac was lost in the process.
The stim timing was late with barely any marauder.

after the patch you'll see 3 rax stim timing followed by medivacs and even more bio in protoss face.That kind of build hit 2 min earlier.
Also Rax + techlab first will be a thing again, Polt style.


polt wasn't played vs buffed gateway units and shieldbatts tho, all protoss should do against that is warp zealots and stalkers, maybe only 1 forge, no way such play will be as strong now.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
May 11 2018 21:25 GMT
#170
I think blizzard could have done a better redesign of the raven missile that would leave it with a role. Now, I can't see the armor reduction with low damage actually mattering for a use, even if only confined to midgame.

Good change on the marauder.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Fango
Profile Joined July 2016
United Kingdom8987 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-11 21:41:02
May 11 2018 21:40 GMT
#171
On May 12 2018 06:25 Danglars wrote:
I think blizzard could have done a better redesign of the raven missile that would leave it with a role. Now, I can't see the armor reduction with low damage actually mattering for a use, even if only confined to midgame.

Good change on the marauder.

The actual damage of the AAM was not really impactful in the midgame (30 with fall-off isn't that much). The armour reduction was always what made it useful.

If you were using the missiles for damage you needed at least 10 ravens or so.
Zest, sOs, PartinG, Dark, and Maru are the real champs. ROOT_herO is overrated. Snute, Serral, and Scarlett are the foreigner GOATs
Lexender
Profile Joined September 2013
Mexico2648 Posts
May 11 2018 22:52 GMT
#172
On May 12 2018 04:50 nonoes wrote:
Show nested quote +

protoss can defend 2base terran all-in while sitting on 3 bases with 1-1, blink and charge all done by 6;30(just play like hero boy) so it's yet unknown that marauder buff is enough.


I assume you're talking about the Hangzhou game 2. inno vs hero
Then that game miss the point completly. It was 1-1-1 drop mine followed by a stim timing vs blink + 3rd base + gate explosion. Mine failed to do damage at all and the medivac was lost in the process.
The stim timing was late with barely any marauder.

after the patch you'll see 3 rax stim timing followed by medivacs and even more bio in protoss face.That kind of build hit 2 min earlier.
Also Rax + techlab first will be a thing again, Polt style.


Going for techlab first is asking to get death by oracle.
Loccstana
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
United States833 Posts
May 11 2018 22:53 GMT
#173
Bring back the medivac heal upgrade to make bio viable lategame again.
[url]http://i.imgur.com/lw2yN.jpg[/url]
engesser1
Profile Blog Joined December 2016
264 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-12 00:00:54
May 12 2018 00:00 GMT
#174
On May 12 2018 06:25 Danglars wrote:
I think blizzard could have done a better redesign of the raven missile that would leave it with a role. Now, I can't see the armor reduction with low damage actually mattering for a use, even if only confined to midgame.

Good change on the marauder.

Like a missile that gives your units armor and shields instead of damage to enemy units?

On May 12 2018 07:53 Loccstana wrote:
Bring back the medivac heal upgrade to make bio viable lategame again.

We need more upgrades. More units. More LoL.
Maru, he is the reason why i'm still playing and watching sc2
SirPinky
Profile Joined February 2011
United States525 Posts
May 12 2018 00:35 GMT
#175
I see a ton of people, even Blizzard, saying "If we can improve the Terran mid-game, it will help them in the late game." That logic is sound if there is a Terran late game unit. Let's say Terran uses this "buff" to have the same stride/economy that Protoss has. Now both of you are sitting with the same 10k/10k economy but Terran has no late game units. They will just "headbutt" endlessly against the Protoss superior army (i.e. Tempest, Carrier, Storm) until they eventually lose. Having an improved ability to scale with other races economy doesn't help if there are no late game units to fight with.

EDIT: No please, someone tell me what beats mass Carrier/Tempest/Storm (or even disruptor underneath) in TvP. You don't see it b/c pro Terran players know they are dead if it gets to that point. There is no Terran DPS to kill it; AAM only takes the armor down but there is no DPS to follow-up - Vikings shoot slow and can't kill fast enough. And BC's use Yamato so AAM is pretty pointless. Where is the DPS now that the Raven is worthless? I won't even bother with Zerg, there is no AA there either versus Corruptor, Viper, BL. Again, any Terran winning increases (if at all) will only be attributed to 2-base all-ins. If the Raven is gone, the BC needs to be looked at to improve.
How much better to get wisdom than gold; to get insight rather than silver!
SHODAN
Profile Joined November 2011
United Kingdom1126 Posts
May 12 2018 01:11 GMT
#176
On May 12 2018 09:35 SirPinky wrote:
No please, someone tell me what beats mass Carrier/Tempest/Storm (or even disruptor underneath) in TvP. You don't see it b/c pro Terran players know they are dead if it gets to that point. There is no Terran DPS to kill it; AAM only takes the armor down but there is no DPS to follow-up - Vikings shoot slow and can't kill fast enough. And BC's use Yamato so AAM is pretty pointless. Where is the DPS now that the Raven is worthless? I won't even bother with Zerg, there is no AA there either versus Corruptor, Viper, BL. Again, any Terran winning increases (if at all) will only be attributed to 2-base all-ins. If the Raven is gone, the BC needs to be looked at to improve.


there is one unit that could do the job.... pre-patch 3.8.0 lock-on cyclones. time to get rid of zero skill tornado blaster cyclones and bring back the glass cannons.

give it a late-game-oriented techlab / armory requirement upgrade for +2 or +3 activation range (activation range, not leash range), so it can stand toe-to-toe with tempest / carrier and brood lords. if its AA is too powerful in the early game, give it a techlab upgrade for AA damage.
Skyro
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1823 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-12 02:35:47
May 12 2018 02:35 GMT
#177
On May 12 2018 09:35 SirPinky wrote:
I see a ton of people, even Blizzard, saying "If we can improve the Terran mid-game, it will help them in the late game." That logic is sound if there is a Terran late game unit. Let's say Terran uses this "buff" to have the same stride/economy that Protoss has. Now both of you are sitting with the same 10k/10k economy but Terran has no late game units. They will just "headbutt" endlessly against the Protoss superior army (i.e. Tempest, Carrier, Storm) until they eventually lose. Having an improved ability to scale with other races economy doesn't help if there are no late game units to fight with.

EDIT: No please, someone tell me what beats mass Carrier/Tempest/Storm (or even disruptor underneath) in TvP. You don't see it b/c pro Terran players know they are dead if it gets to that point. There is no Terran DPS to kill it; AAM only takes the armor down but there is no DPS to follow-up - Vikings shoot slow and can't kill fast enough. And BC's use Yamato so AAM is pretty pointless. Where is the DPS now that the Raven is worthless? I won't even bother with Zerg, there is no AA there either versus Corruptor, Viper, BL. Again, any Terran winning increases (if at all) will only be attributed to 2-base all-ins. If the Raven is gone, the BC needs to be looked at to improve.


Maybe your problem is your approach to late game? Late game is not about "headbutting" your army into theirs, it's about picking them apart piece by piece with cost efficient trades since late game they are spread all over the map. Terran has other strong late game advantages that have nothing to do with 200/200 armies smashing into each other like PFs, nukes, mule spam, etc. Same as mid game, you don't "headbutt" your bio into Protoss either, you have to exploit Protoss' immobility. If you can get Protoss to attack in to your PF/turret spam and/or get some money EMPs on their HT Protoss armies are definitely not unbeatable. Late game clashes have always been about jockeying for position. IMO the Viking HP buff will help a lot more in than people think. Look at how Hydralisks went from never used to staple unit overnight when they got their HP buff.
SirPinky
Profile Joined February 2011
United States525 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-12 03:31:21
May 12 2018 03:23 GMT
#178
On May 12 2018 11:35 Skyro wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2018 09:35 SirPinky wrote:
I see a ton of people, even Blizzard, saying "If we can improve the Terran mid-game, it will help them in the late game." That logic is sound if there is a Terran late game unit. Let's say Terran uses this "buff" to have the same stride/economy that Protoss has. Now both of you are sitting with the same 10k/10k economy but Terran has no late game units. They will just "headbutt" endlessly against the Protoss superior army (i.e. Tempest, Carrier, Storm) until they eventually lose. Having an improved ability to scale with other races economy doesn't help if there are no late game units to fight with.

EDIT: No please, someone tell me what beats mass Carrier/Tempest/Storm (or even disruptor underneath) in TvP. You don't see it b/c pro Terran players know they are dead if it gets to that point. There is no Terran DPS to kill it; AAM only takes the armor down but there is no DPS to follow-up - Vikings shoot slow and can't kill fast enough. And BC's use Yamato so AAM is pretty pointless. Where is the DPS now that the Raven is worthless? I won't even bother with Zerg, there is no AA there either versus Corruptor, Viper, BL. Again, any Terran winning increases (if at all) will only be attributed to 2-base all-ins. If the Raven is gone, the BC needs to be looked at to improve.


Maybe your problem is your approach to late game? Late game is not about "headbutting" your army into theirs, it's about picking them apart piece by piece with cost efficient trades since late game they are spread all over the map. Terran has other strong late game advantages that have nothing to do with 200/200 armies smashing into each other like PFs, nukes, mule spam, etc. Same as mid game, you don't "headbutt" your bio into Protoss either, you have to exploit Protoss' immobility. If you can get Protoss to attack in to your PF/turret spam and/or get some money EMPs on their HT Protoss armies are definitely not unbeatable. Late game clashes have always been about jockeying for position. IMO the Viking HP buff will help a lot more in than people think. Look at how Hydralisks went from never used to staple unit overnight when they got their HP buff.


I think your points are valid if we are talking about a Protoss with 3 or less bases. I'm talking about a Protoss with 4, 5 or more bases. "Picking" them apart stops at a certain point; it is this threshold where a Protoss becomes invulnerable to an attack. Their "deathball" cannot be beat head-to-head.

If I'm a Protoss on 5 bases and have Carriers, Tempest, HT and maybe a few Disruptors thrown in...how do you beat that. Pick them apart? No, they have recall and mass warp-in at that point. And it's interesting you mention things like PF, Nukes, and mule spam: Those are all economy related components. Where is the offense? Economy is not synonymous with winning the game. Sure, it helps, but there are tons of times players lose because they have an inferior composition. My point is...Terran will never have a equal or superior composition to late game Protoss in LOTV. Blizzard should just come out and say "Sorry, Terran, don't let them get to that point." And, indirectly, this patch is saying just that.

EDIT: Eventually you are going to have to battle their army head-to-head and the "harass" stops. This is where Terran will die...regardless of what is in the bank. Remember in some of Neebs late games PvZ he went down to less than 10 probes? If both players are sitting on 5k/5k, economy, nukes, PF etc. don't matter. Terran will lose - there is no late game unit to contend with Protoss.

How much better to get wisdom than gold; to get insight rather than silver!
Skyro
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1823 Posts
May 12 2018 03:41 GMT
#179
On May 12 2018 12:23 SirPinky wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2018 11:35 Skyro wrote:
On May 12 2018 09:35 SirPinky wrote:
I see a ton of people, even Blizzard, saying "If we can improve the Terran mid-game, it will help them in the late game." That logic is sound if there is a Terran late game unit. Let's say Terran uses this "buff" to have the same stride/economy that Protoss has. Now both of you are sitting with the same 10k/10k economy but Terran has no late game units. They will just "headbutt" endlessly against the Protoss superior army (i.e. Tempest, Carrier, Storm) until they eventually lose. Having an improved ability to scale with other races economy doesn't help if there are no late game units to fight with.

EDIT: No please, someone tell me what beats mass Carrier/Tempest/Storm (or even disruptor underneath) in TvP. You don't see it b/c pro Terran players know they are dead if it gets to that point. There is no Terran DPS to kill it; AAM only takes the armor down but there is no DPS to follow-up - Vikings shoot slow and can't kill fast enough. And BC's use Yamato so AAM is pretty pointless. Where is the DPS now that the Raven is worthless? I won't even bother with Zerg, there is no AA there either versus Corruptor, Viper, BL. Again, any Terran winning increases (if at all) will only be attributed to 2-base all-ins. If the Raven is gone, the BC needs to be looked at to improve.


Maybe your problem is your approach to late game? Late game is not about "headbutting" your army into theirs, it's about picking them apart piece by piece with cost efficient trades since late game they are spread all over the map. Terran has other strong late game advantages that have nothing to do with 200/200 armies smashing into each other like PFs, nukes, mule spam, etc. Same as mid game, you don't "headbutt" your bio into Protoss either, you have to exploit Protoss' immobility. If you can get Protoss to attack in to your PF/turret spam and/or get some money EMPs on their HT Protoss armies are definitely not unbeatable. Late game clashes have always been about jockeying for position. IMO the Viking HP buff will help a lot more in than people think. Look at how Hydralisks went from never used to staple unit overnight when they got their HP buff.


I think your points are valid if we are talking about a Protoss with 3 or less bases. I'm talking about a Protoss with 4, 5 or more bases. "Picking" them apart stops at a certain point; it is this threshold where a Protoss becomes invulnerable to an attack. Their "deathball" cannot be beat head-to-head.

If I'm a Protoss on 5 bases and have Carriers, Tempest, HT and maybe a few Disruptors thrown in...how do you beat that. Pick them apart? No, they have recall and mass warp-in at that point. And it's interesting you mention things like PF, Nukes, and mule spam: Those are all economy related components. Where is the offense? Economy is not synonymous with winning the game. Sure, it helps, but there are tons of times players lose because they have an inferior composition. My point is...Terran will never have a equal or superior composition to late game Protoss in LOTV. Blizzard should just come out and say "Sorry, Terran, don't let them get to that point." And, indirectly, this patch is saying just that.

EDIT: Eventually you are going to have to battle their army head-to-head and the "harass" stops. This is where Terran will die...regardless of what is in the bank. Remember in some of Neebs late games PvZ he went down to less than 10 probes? If both players are sitting on 5k/5k, economy, nukes, PF etc. don't matter. Terran will lose - there is no late game unit to contend with Protoss.



Harder to harass when the Protoss has more bases, i.e. more places to attack? Protoss becomes "invulnerable" to harass in late game? PFs, nukes, mule spams are not useful in late game? I don't know what to say I basically don't agree with anything you said and I doubt many people share your opinion on any of these points. What do you think Zergs do to Protoss late game? "Headbutt" their army into the Protoss army? And do you think Protoss needs to be nerfed in PvZ too because they what is generally viewed as having a superior late game army to Zerg?
SpecKROELLchen
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany151 Posts
May 12 2018 05:49 GMT
#180
I think the game in general should not be designed in a way such as "don't let race a get to this point or you are dead". It sounds like an exaggeration but in tvp it always felt like this for a very long time. And i also think z feels the same way when its against mass air/storm/MS/archon armies even though you see some quite well lategames in zvp.

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