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Finland931 Posts
On April 05 2018 17:30 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2018 17:10 Corvuuss wrote:On April 05 2018 00:09 Poopi wrote:On April 04 2018 23:03 Soularion wrote:On April 04 2018 20:29 Poopi wrote:On April 04 2018 19:53 Soularion wrote:On April 04 2018 19:28 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
The two notable players not mentioned here are ByuN and herO. I rather think that ByuN probably deserves to sneak into the top 16. As for herO his spot in KeSPA jail is well merited after losing to eMotion, but there's some weird stuff going on with his form so who the hell knows. ByuN has done nothing all year aside from beat Impact a couple times at Super Tournament quals. 0-4 to Trap, 0-2 to Classic, 0-2 to Solar. Completely unnoteworthy player. herO similarly hasn't done much to earn faith, and his complete collapse in GSL quals (not just losing to eMotion, but LosirA and Dear too - the fuck, herO?) kinda booted him off the list. He qualified for both GSL and GSL ST, and trashed herO / Stats / Creator. That's better than Impact. So you're basically counting an online series against Stats and arguably herO, and then 2-1 wins vs Hurricane and Impact as him being top 16. Meanwhile Impact got out of IEM Katowice groups, beat Stats online *twice*, beat Dear and Rogue online, and recently beat Solar as well. His online repertoire is better, and while ByuN got the better of him at GSL ST quals, Impact showed up to IEM Katowice and proved he could play at a fairly high level when the stakes are high. It's very simple, let's do the math. In 2018 : Impact went from 2440 aligulac rating to 2442, he gained 2 points. ByuN went from 2564 aligulac rating to 2588, he gained 24 points. Not only did ByuN gain more points in 2018 than Impact, he was at an higher rating, so had he performed the same (same win/loss against the same players) as Impact, he would have gained less points than him (probably lost points). Oh aligulac points a system which means pretty much nothing (like the power ranking but that has a nice read to it and it is made by people who can consider more than numbers). I like the power ranks by the way it adds a little bit of story to the scene. Aligulac is a much better ranking of the players than any Power Ranking since Power Rankings are completly subjective while Aligulac is based on well defined math that has been used to rank players in many sports for a very long time.
Aligulac works perfectly, as evidenced by Serral being ranked #1 for a long time and still consistently losing to Koreans who are ranked below him.
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France12886 Posts
On April 05 2018 17:10 Corvuuss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2018 00:09 Poopi wrote:On April 04 2018 23:03 Soularion wrote:On April 04 2018 20:29 Poopi wrote:On April 04 2018 19:53 Soularion wrote:On April 04 2018 19:28 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
The two notable players not mentioned here are ByuN and herO. I rather think that ByuN probably deserves to sneak into the top 16. As for herO his spot in KeSPA jail is well merited after losing to eMotion, but there's some weird stuff going on with his form so who the hell knows. ByuN has done nothing all year aside from beat Impact a couple times at Super Tournament quals. 0-4 to Trap, 0-2 to Classic, 0-2 to Solar. Completely unnoteworthy player. herO similarly hasn't done much to earn faith, and his complete collapse in GSL quals (not just losing to eMotion, but LosirA and Dear too - the fuck, herO?) kinda booted him off the list. He qualified for both GSL and GSL ST, and trashed herO / Stats / Creator. That's better than Impact. So you're basically counting an online series against Stats and arguably herO, and then 2-1 wins vs Hurricane and Impact as him being top 16. Meanwhile Impact got out of IEM Katowice groups, beat Stats online *twice*, beat Dear and Rogue online, and recently beat Solar as well. His online repertoire is better, and while ByuN got the better of him at GSL ST quals, Impact showed up to IEM Katowice and proved he could play at a fairly high level when the stakes are high. It's very simple, let's do the math. In 2018 : Impact went from 2440 aligulac rating to 2442, he gained 2 points. ByuN went from 2564 aligulac rating to 2588, he gained 24 points. Not only did ByuN gain more points in 2018 than Impact, he was at an higher rating, so had he performed the same (same win/loss against the same players) as Impact, he would have gained less points than him (probably lost points). Oh aligulac points a system which means pretty much nothing (like the power ranking but that has a nice read to it and it is made by people who can consider more than numbers). I like the power ranks by the way it adds a little bit of story to the scene.
Actually it proves (given that one player didn't farm too much low level players compared to the other) that Impact did perform worse objectively.
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On April 05 2018 18:32 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2018 17:10 Corvuuss wrote:On April 05 2018 00:09 Poopi wrote:On April 04 2018 23:03 Soularion wrote:On April 04 2018 20:29 Poopi wrote:On April 04 2018 19:53 Soularion wrote:On April 04 2018 19:28 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
The two notable players not mentioned here are ByuN and herO. I rather think that ByuN probably deserves to sneak into the top 16. As for herO his spot in KeSPA jail is well merited after losing to eMotion, but there's some weird stuff going on with his form so who the hell knows. ByuN has done nothing all year aside from beat Impact a couple times at Super Tournament quals. 0-4 to Trap, 0-2 to Classic, 0-2 to Solar. Completely unnoteworthy player. herO similarly hasn't done much to earn faith, and his complete collapse in GSL quals (not just losing to eMotion, but LosirA and Dear too - the fuck, herO?) kinda booted him off the list. He qualified for both GSL and GSL ST, and trashed herO / Stats / Creator. That's better than Impact. So you're basically counting an online series against Stats and arguably herO, and then 2-1 wins vs Hurricane and Impact as him being top 16. Meanwhile Impact got out of IEM Katowice groups, beat Stats online *twice*, beat Dear and Rogue online, and recently beat Solar as well. His online repertoire is better, and while ByuN got the better of him at GSL ST quals, Impact showed up to IEM Katowice and proved he could play at a fairly high level when the stakes are high. It's very simple, let's do the math. In 2018 : Impact went from 2440 aligulac rating to 2442, he gained 2 points. ByuN went from 2564 aligulac rating to 2588, he gained 24 points. Not only did ByuN gain more points in 2018 than Impact, he was at an higher rating, so had he performed the same (same win/loss against the same players) as Impact, he would have gained less points than him (probably lost points). Oh aligulac points a system which means pretty much nothing (like the power ranking but that has a nice read to it and it is made by people who can consider more than numbers). I like the power ranks by the way it adds a little bit of story to the scene. Actually it proves (given that one player didn't farm too much low level players compared to the other) that Impact did perform worse objectively.
It proves the other player won more games but does not factor in circumstances.
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On April 05 2018 02:14 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2018 00:31 MockHamill wrote:
I agree with Maru as number one but I would put Serral in the top 4.
He is the best foreign Zerg ever in pure skill. Serral is good but there's no way he's a top 5 player right now. For that he got beaten too badly by Maru and Classic (in the series that mattered).
I mean sure the WESG series wasn't as big, but it was still a 20k series.
(not saying that I'd put him in the top-5 atm tho)
On April 05 2018 08:16 Jj_82 wrote:
Just for the sake of having some more names here: Serral, Neeb, Special. Best foreigners atm. I do especially miss Juan in the ranking. He seems to play really fantastic lately.
If he would've made GSL and not gone full tilt in his ro16 WESG group I guess one could've argued for Juan.
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Maru is my favorite pro gamer. I remember Nerchio said he is overrated after these words Maru put sucha beating on him.
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France12886 Posts
To be fair when Nerchio went to KR he admitted Maru had the best micro
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On April 05 2018 10:39 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2018 04:34 MockHamill wrote:On April 05 2018 03:34 Durnuu wrote:On April 05 2018 03:33 MockHamill wrote:
Serral all-killed Korea. His aligulac ranking is the highest in the world.
Except for Maru I do not see any Korean that is clearly better. He is on the same level as Dark and Classic. Serral didn't all-kill Korea. Unless Poland = Korea in your mind. I provided some alternative facts. Still, Koreans are overrated. The gap used to be huge but it is not any more. Top Koreans are just slightly better than top foreigners now and I think Serral will pass every Korean (with the possible exception of Maru) within a year. There is literally zero evidence to suggest that the gap is narrower than it has been in the past. During Stephano's era, Stephano was frequently either winning or going to finals in global events against code S quality Koreans. Serral as good as he is, the best he has managed is top 4 in global events. He's good, but the Koreans are better. The gap hasn't gone anywhere. The skill level of foreign players has definitely improved over the years but the Koreans have gotten better too. There is zero evidence to suggest that the gap is narrowed. Literally none. You can't just argue that point and have no results to back it up.
There is significant evidence... Proleague is gone, many big Korean teams went under, and we have a region lock. Without that support system in Korea and a region lock allowing foreigners to develop, foreigners can and will catch up.
Stephano is the greatest foreigner of all time by a long shot. His achievements dwarf any other foreigner. He was the one foreigner who played in SC2 Proleague and had a winning record.
The narrowing of the gap makes his achievements even more impressive.
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I think there must be a mistake here, I do not see Avilo in the power rank. Can you explain why ? I think he deserves a spot there. Kappa.
User was warned for this post
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So......is Rogue a patchzerg again now? 
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On April 06 2018 20:27 pvsnp wrote:So......is Rogue a patchzerg again now?
Pretty sure he never stopped being one
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Lorning
Belgica34432 Posts
Wow, writers actually having brains. Jee, a miracle happened.
Maru #1
User was warned for this post
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Now that Rogue is seeded into Blizzcon, GSL super tournament really does not offer him much. It's understandable that he isn't motivated to get in form right now.
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On April 06 2018 12:22 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2018 10:39 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2018 04:34 MockHamill wrote:On April 05 2018 03:34 Durnuu wrote:On April 05 2018 03:33 MockHamill wrote:
Serral all-killed Korea. His aligulac ranking is the highest in the world.
Except for Maru I do not see any Korean that is clearly better. He is on the same level as Dark and Classic. Serral didn't all-kill Korea. Unless Poland = Korea in your mind. I provided some alternative facts. Still, Koreans are overrated. The gap used to be huge but it is not any more. Top Koreans are just slightly better than top foreigners now and I think Serral will pass every Korean (with the possible exception of Maru) within a year. There is literally zero evidence to suggest that the gap is narrower than it has been in the past. During Stephano's era, Stephano was frequently either winning or going to finals in global events against code S quality Koreans. Serral as good as he is, the best he has managed is top 4 in global events. He's good, but the Koreans are better. The gap hasn't gone anywhere. The skill level of foreign players has definitely improved over the years but the Koreans have gotten better too. There is zero evidence to suggest that the gap is narrowed. Literally none. You can't just argue that point and have no results to back it up. There is significant evidence... Proleague is gone, many big Korean teams went under, and we have a region lock. Without that support system in Korea and a region lock allowing foreigners to develop, foreigners can and will catch up. Stephano is the greatest foreigner of all time by a long shot. His achievements dwarf any other foreigner. He was the one foreigner who played in SC2 Proleague and had a winning record. The narrowing of the gap makes his achievements even more impressive.
Looking at results alone, Neeb seems to be the greatest foreigner of all time.
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On April 07 2018 16:16 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2018 12:22 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 05 2018 10:39 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2018 04:34 MockHamill wrote:On April 05 2018 03:34 Durnuu wrote:On April 05 2018 03:33 MockHamill wrote:
Serral all-killed Korea. His aligulac ranking is the highest in the world.
Except for Maru I do not see any Korean that is clearly better. He is on the same level as Dark and Classic. Serral didn't all-kill Korea. Unless Poland = Korea in your mind. I provided some alternative facts. Still, Koreans are overrated. The gap used to be huge but it is not any more. Top Koreans are just slightly better than top foreigners now and I think Serral will pass every Korean (with the possible exception of Maru) within a year. There is literally zero evidence to suggest that the gap is narrower than it has been in the past. During Stephano's era, Stephano was frequently either winning or going to finals in global events against code S quality Koreans. Serral as good as he is, the best he has managed is top 4 in global events. He's good, but the Koreans are better. The gap hasn't gone anywhere. The skill level of foreign players has definitely improved over the years but the Koreans have gotten better too. There is zero evidence to suggest that the gap is narrowed. Literally none. You can't just argue that point and have no results to back it up. There is significant evidence... Proleague is gone, many big Korean teams went under, and we have a region lock. Without that support system in Korea and a region lock allowing foreigners to develop, foreigners can and will catch up. Stephano is the greatest foreigner of all time by a long shot. His achievements dwarf any other foreigner. He was the one foreigner who played in SC2 Proleague and had a winning record. The narrowing of the gap makes his achievements even more impressive. Looking at results alone, Neeb seems to be the greatest foreigner of all time.
That must be some weird results you're looking at
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United States33397 Posts
On April 06 2018 12:22 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2018 10:39 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2018 04:34 MockHamill wrote:On April 05 2018 03:34 Durnuu wrote:On April 05 2018 03:33 MockHamill wrote:
Serral all-killed Korea. His aligulac ranking is the highest in the world.
Except for Maru I do not see any Korean that is clearly better. He is on the same level as Dark and Classic. Serral didn't all-kill Korea. Unless Poland = Korea in your mind. I provided some alternative facts. Still, Koreans are overrated. The gap used to be huge but it is not any more. Top Koreans are just slightly better than top foreigners now and I think Serral will pass every Korean (with the possible exception of Maru) within a year. There is literally zero evidence to suggest that the gap is narrower than it has been in the past. During Stephano's era, Stephano was frequently either winning or going to finals in global events against code S quality Koreans. Serral as good as he is, the best he has managed is top 4 in global events. He's good, but the Koreans are better. The gap hasn't gone anywhere. The skill level of foreign players has definitely improved over the years but the Koreans have gotten better too. Ah fuck I just realized all I'm doing is mincing words and arguing semantics—nm. There is zero evidence to suggest that the gap is narrowed. Literally none. You can't just argue that point and have no results to back it up. There is significant evidence... Proleague is gone, many big Korean teams went under, and we have a region lock. Without that support system in Korea and a region lock allowing foreigners to develop, foreigners can and will catch up. Stephano is the greatest foreigner of all time by a long shot. His achievements dwarf any other foreigner. He was the one foreigner who played in SC2 Proleague and had a winning record. The narrowing of the gap makes his achievements even more impressive.
None of that is REAL hard evidence though. That's not to say I find your deductions unreasonable—I actually agree with you in some regards. I just take issue with calling that kind of stuff "evidence" as if it's actually factually conclusive.
fuck I just realized all I'm doing is mincing words and arguing semantics. nm 
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Lol, you didn't have Rogue on the power ranking for Katowice? Wowwww...that's the definition of an objective failure. Your power ranks are usually trash though. And as I've always felt, now vindicated, Innovation undeservedly lived in your P.R. top 3-5 without sufficient results - at least you finally booted him down. I feel like the power ranks are fun, but they are always a little behind and a lot biased.
User was warned for this post
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On April 07 2018 16:46 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2018 16:16 IshinShishi wrote:On April 06 2018 12:22 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 05 2018 10:39 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 05 2018 04:34 MockHamill wrote:On April 05 2018 03:34 Durnuu wrote:On April 05 2018 03:33 MockHamill wrote:
Serral all-killed Korea. His aligulac ranking is the highest in the world.
Except for Maru I do not see any Korean that is clearly better. He is on the same level as Dark and Classic. Serral didn't all-kill Korea. Unless Poland = Korea in your mind. I provided some alternative facts. Still, Koreans are overrated. The gap used to be huge but it is not any more. Top Koreans are just slightly better than top foreigners now and I think Serral will pass every Korean (with the possible exception of Maru) within a year. There is literally zero evidence to suggest that the gap is narrower than it has been in the past. During Stephano's era, Stephano was frequently either winning or going to finals in global events against code S quality Koreans. Serral as good as he is, the best he has managed is top 4 in global events. He's good, but the Koreans are better. The gap hasn't gone anywhere. The skill level of foreign players has definitely improved over the years but the Koreans have gotten better too. There is zero evidence to suggest that the gap is narrowed. Literally none. You can't just argue that point and have no results to back it up. There is significant evidence... Proleague is gone, many big Korean teams went under, and we have a region lock. Without that support system in Korea and a region lock allowing foreigners to develop, foreigners can and will catch up. Stephano is the greatest foreigner of all time by a long shot. His achievements dwarf any other foreigner. He was the one foreigner who played in SC2 Proleague and had a winning record. The narrowing of the gap makes his achievements even more impressive. Looking at results alone, Neeb seems to be the greatest foreigner of all time. That must be some weird results you're looking at
I don't know why it bothers me so much, but I hate when people think the GOAT is someone who is good currently and they spend time crapping over the greats of the past. It happens in all sports, but it's particularly bad in individual sports like Boxing, MMA and SC2.
A cursory internet search on Liquipedia would show that Stephano is so far ahead of any foreigner in terms of results, it is like comparing Michael Jordan to Kevin Durant and claiming Durant is the GOAT.
Let me take everyone down memory lane regarding Stephano real quick... IGN ProLeague Season 3... who is this Stephano guy I am watching? He wasn't invited to the event, had to go through via a qualifier and I don't think anyone thought he would win. This tournament was full of Koreans, and not just a couple of washed up Koreans, these are Code S Koreans.
He beats KiWiKaKi before facing the onslaught beginning with a 2-0 over Code S Zerg Violet. Then he faces inori, sounds like a no-name Korean, but inori had beaten Huk and MC to reach Stephano, he is a Code S Protoss. Stephano beats him 2-1. Then he faces Korean Terran TheStC and downs him 2-1. Finally he faces Lucky, a Code S Zerg in the finals, who had beaten MMA, Ryung and Boxer to get there.... and Stephano beats him 4-0.
And that was just the start. Stephano wasn't just taking series off random Koreans or going even with them, he was lining them up and destroying them. He beat MarineKingPrime two weeks later in the semi-finals of ESWC 2011 before winning the whole thing. He beat Bomber and Polt (among other Koreans) at Lone Star Clash 1 & 2 to win those events. He won his first two matches in Proleague...
No one has come anywhere close to Stephano. Yeah, I know Neeb did it once at the KeSPA Cup, but Stephano did it multiple times. He was the only foreigner who we could say was the favorite to win any tournament at that time that had multiple Code S Koreans in it. He was better than all but three to five Korean players at a time when a foreigner beating any GSL Korean was huge deal.
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EPT
