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Power Rank: April 2018

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Power Rank: April 2018

Text byTL.net ESPORTS
April 4th, 2018 10:10 GMT

Power Rank: April 2018

Rankings by TeamLiquid.net writers, but mostly written by @Mizenhauer [image loading]

March was a busy month, with champions crowned at IEM Katowice, WESG 2017, and GSL Code S. With so many games played and so many careers changed, it's the perfect time to release a new power rank. Let's go over the basics again.
  • The Power Rank is an aggregate, average ranking of separate lists submitted by individual members of the TeamLiquid.net writing staff.
  • Criteria considered include, but are not limited to: Tournament placements, overall record, quality of opponents faced, quality of play.
  • Recent results are weighted more heavily, but players may receive benefit of the doubt for consistent performances in the past.

For no particular reason, other than that we were feeling extra controversial generous, we're ranking sixteen players compared to the previous ten. That's right! We're giving you an extra six players for no additional cost. Are we afraid that the single-elimination GSL Super Tournament is just a day away, and is almost guaranteed to make us look dumb? Just a little.

Previous Power Rank: IEM Katowice Edition

*Tournament results until to April 3rd were considered in the following write-ups

#16: Impact



(Wiki)Impact makes his first appearance in our 2018 Power Rankings, albeit only because the ranking was extended. Impact had a successful run at IEM Katowice, making it to the Round of 12 before losing in a tight 2-3 series against Dear (surely, his confidence was boosted by a certain TeamLiquid.net article). Impact went 15-10 in matches since returning to Korea from IEM, with his most noteworthy win coming over Rogue in BTSL. He’s been up and down besides that result, and actually dropped below .500 in ZvZ during that period thanks to losses to Leenock and soO. All-in-all, this is the same Impact we’re used to. He's good, but not quite good enough to disrupt the established order in major tournaments.

#15: aLive



You know a player is getting credit for past performances when they're in the Power Rank despite not having played a live tournament match in over a month. Ever since (Wiki)aLive was eliminated in the Code S RO16 back on February 14th, all he's done is compete in online tournaments and closed-door qualifiers. And still, without having seen him play in a big match in March, we're all pretty certain we can pencil him in for another RO16-RO8 finish in the next Code S. While everyone lauds Stats and Dark for their consistency, it might be aLive who's the true iron man of Legacy of the Void.

#14: GuMiho



Friendly neighborhood mech Terran,(Wiki) GuMiho, makes his 2018 power ranking debut in the 14 spot. He's kept up his reputation as an online tournament hustler, achieving an impressive 70%+ win rate over the course of 70+ games during the month of March. While some of those wins have come against tough opponents such as Solar, Trap, and Dear, Gumiho has definitely padded his stats against the likes of Demi, colortoss, and TOP.

For those who don't fervently consume online tournament content, the last good look you had of Gumiho was at the IEM World Championships where he dropped out in the RO24 group stages with a 2-3 record. He won both his matches against foreigners SpeCial and ShowTimE, but losses to Dear, Maru and TY denied him a playoff spot. Gumiho managed to qualify for both the GSL Super Tournament and Code S Season 2, and he will look to remind everyone that he's a force to be reckoned with in offline competition as well.

#13: Dear



(Wiki)Dear’s 2017 was emblematic of his entire career, with more highs and lows than the StarCraft II community's opinion on Day9. In 2018, it looks like we should prepare ourselves for more of the same.

Dear failed to make it into the top ten of the previous power rank due to his meek RO16 exit in the GSL. He showed much better form at IEM Katowice, going 4-1 in the group stage before barely losing 2-3 to Classic in the quarterfinals. Interestingly enough, one of Dear's group stage wins came against his old nemesis Maru, making him one of the few players to hand the Terran prince a loss before he activated god mode. Overall, IEM was a tournament that reminded us Dear has the capacity to be great but still lacks the consistency. IEM was a positive sign, but it's hard to get our expectations up about Dear until we see more good performances.

#12: Solar



For most fans, their most vivid memory of Splyce Zerg (Wiki)Solar is how he got shredded by Maru in the RO8 of IEM Katowice. But let's not forget that Solar went 5-0 in his group before that, defeating both Dark and INnoVation along the way. Furthermore, it turns out that there's no great shame in losing to Maru's Ravens, since that just puts you on even footing with everyone else in StarCraft II.

Solar is another player who was incredibly active in March. It only took four days for Solar to get back in the saddle after IEM. He participated in a pair of online tournaments on March 7th before playing in 15 more tournaments and qualifiers throughout the rest of the month. He posted a 45-7 record in matches along the way, with his excellent 17-5 record in ZvZ (43-16 in games) actually surpassed by a sensational 28-2 record against the other two races. As is the case with many of the Power Rank players, Solar is qualified for both the GSL Super Tournament and Code S Season 2, meaning he has plenty of chances to make up for his RO32 exit in Code S Season 1. He has his work cut out for him if he wants to reach BlizzCon, but things are trending in the right direction.

#11: Zest



The first player to return after making an appearance in the previous Power Rank, Zest dropped from 10th to 11th place in the wake of his 1-4 group stage performance at IEM Katowice. He looked to be in good form after dropping just a single game in the RO76 open bracket of IEM, but the group stage turned out to be an unmitigated disaster (losses to Serral, Neeb, Rogue, and Impact).

Zest has rebounded since then to the tune of a 21-4 record in matches. Of course, it’s difficult to read too much into that record when the only truly impressive wins came over Stats*, Rogue, and GuMiho (x2). For some time now, Zest has continued to show fine form when few eyes are watching (we're losing track of the number of times his hardcore fans have told us he looked amazing while streaming), only to disappoint us with breathtakingly poor performance when things heat up. He’ll have an opportunity to repair that image in the Super Tournament and Code S, but as of right now, we've been burned too many times to extend him any further credit.

*This was online-Stats, not GSL-Stats.

#10: INnoVation



March was not a great month for INnoVation. He slotted in at #4 in our last Power Rank, where we gave him significant benefit of the doubt after an abominable February that had Stuchiu spamming #notmybonjwa. And it's benefit of the doubt that sees INnoVation stay in the top ten, despite his disastrous showing in Poland. INnoVation’s fans hoped he would turn things around in time for IEM, but it wasn’t meant to be. INnoVation wound up going 1-4 in the group stage, with his sole win coming against TRUE (a match so atrocious, all footage of it appears to have been purged from the internet).

Nevertheless, INnoVation has recovered with a 11-2 match record after IEM, which is impressive even considering the usual stat-padding against weaker opponents. For INnoVation, it's not a question of if he can take down elite opponents in meaningful matches, it's a matter of when. We've already seen INnoVation essentially take a year off in 2016—we really hope 2018 doesn't become a repeat.

#9: Trap



Of all the Koreans who made the trek to IEM Katowice, (Wiki)Trap had the most mixed experience. On one hand, he was utterly unconvincingly in advancing from the group stage, needing a series of other matches to break his way in order to squeeze through to the playoffs. Then, in a total reversal of form, he upset championship contender Dark in the RO12 to book a quarterfinal match against Serral. In a final twist, he took a 2-0 lead against Serral , only to fall apart completely in a reverse sweep.

Recently, Trap passed the routine test of making it through the Code S qualifiers, but failed to make the more-rigorous cut of qualifying for the GSL Super Tournament (he lost to a sneaky-resurgent Leenock). Congratulations, Trap! You're this month's 'guy-who-can-beat-anyone-but-can-also-lose-to-anyone'. It's a position that has produced both champions and first-round flops, and it will be interesting to see which direction Trap heads in.

#8a:TY



(Wiki)TY got off to a fantastic start in March when he went 5-0 in his IEM Katowice group, but things went quickly awry. After jumping out to a 1-0 lead against Rogue in the IEM RO8, TY gave up three straight losses in what seemed like winnable games. Game 3 on Backwater was particularly telling, as the Splyce Terran made a complete mess of breaking out of Rogue’s proxy hatch contain in a true 'John Sun' moment (TY's nickname in the Korean community when he displays… foreigner-esque play).

After IEM, TY stayed true to his flighty reputation, completely vanishing from sight until emerging for the Super Tournament and GSL Season 2 qualifiers. He had to go to the losers' bracket to make Code S, and was denied Super Tournament qualification by sOs. Outside that, his March record includes a pair of games in Olimoleague which tell us nothing revelatory. That puts us in the familiar spot of believing TY is good because, well, he has to be. After all, he was (mostly) very good in the most important tournament he played. Here’s to a busy April where we will hopefully learn more about our favorite reverse-sweep-prone Terran.

#8b: Serral



[Editor's note: Some writers did not want to include Serral, as he is not participating in the only two major individual tournaments this month. That's nonsense! Everyone knows half the fun of PR is in comparing Koreans to foreigners. So here's Serral, shoe-horned in at around eighth place.]

(Wiki)Serral hasn't set foot in the GSL, but he's beat enough GSL players to have a top ten power rank spot on lockdown. Here's the list of Code S (Season 1 & 2) players he beat on his way to top four finishes at IEM and WESG: Rogue, Impact, Zest, Trap, Classic, Elazer, and TRUE. While we have a great deal of deference for the GSL as the world's toughest tournament, Serral legitimately challenges the notion that one must play in Code S to be considered one of the best players in the world.

Here's something funny: it might be Serral's record against fellow foreigners that best illustrates the level he's reached. At WESG, Serral racked up a perfect 22-0 game record against foreigners (7-0 in matches), including series wins against WCS Circuit Champions Neeb, Elazer, and ShoWTimE. No member of the Korean delegation—not Classic, not Dark, and not even Maru—can say they were so ruthless against international competition as to not even drop a single map.

#7: sOs



We ranked sOs third in the last power ranking, but this time he’ll have to settle for seventh place. It’s not that sOs had a bad month from a win/loss point of view, going 10-4 in matches with victories over ranked players INnoVation, Trap and TY. However, he had the misfortune of running into Maru in both IEM and GSL. Both matches were full-set, tightly contested series, with Maru narrowly getting the better of his cunning teammate. In retrospect, perhaps sOs deserves a bit more leeway for just barely losing to a player on the level of Maru.

Of the nine Protosses in Code S, sOs still resides in the deadliest tier along with Classic and Stats. However, he's definitively lost some of his fearsome reputation as a clutch, big-match player. It might take a few inspired weeks in the laboratory before sOs is truly ready to challenge for the first GSL Code S title of his career.

#6: soO



Last time we checked in with soO he was performing spectacularly against Zerg and Protoss while struggling against Terran. Well, after a debacle in the open bracket at IEM Katowice and an uncharacteristic loss to Stats in the GSL semifinals, soO is back in mostly the same place. He was 1-3 in matches against Terran in March with the losses coming against Cure, Bunny, and SpeCial. Meanwhile he went 8-1 in series against Protoss and Zerg. When you remove the aforementioned loss to Stats, he is 17-2 in games against the other two races including the 3-0 sweep that knocked Scarlett out of Code S.

Like a bunch of other players on this list, soO is qualified for both upcoming Korean tournaments, though he has to play Maru in the opening round of the Super Tournament in some kind of perverse, alternate-reality Code S championship fight. The only guarantee we can give for that match is that regardless of the result, the memes will be overflowing.

#5: Classic



Classic occupied the number one spot in our pre-IEM Katowice ranking, but he’s had a rocky time ever since. Second place IEM, top four WESG, and top eight Code S are some undeniably fantastic results for the whole of March, but it still leaves a bitter taste in our mouths since we fancied Classic the best player in the world for most of 2018.

Overall, Classic posted an 18-4 record in matches during March, but those four losses came at the most important moments. His results are a perfect demonstration of how narrow the line is between champion and contender. He has defeated some of the best Koreans and foreigners, but if he wants to lift a title he will need to do better when facing off against the likes of Rogue, Dark, Serral, and Stats. Classic went a perfect 5-0 en route to qualifying for both GSL tournaments, but he’ll have to raise his game another level and get over his difficulties against top Zergs if he wants to win it all.

#4: Stats



The TeamLiquid.net writing staff are proud to continue our tradition of undervaluing Stats by placing him in the fourth position in this month’s power ranking (to be fair, he was eighth in the previous edition, so we’re slowly catching on). This might seem absurd given how he made it all the way to the GSL finals, but he "only" managed a 9-5 record in matches in March. Losses to ByuN, Ragnarok and Impact over the past thirty odd days raise questions, and his IEM elimination at the hands of souL isn't anywhere close to being out of our memory.

All in all, Stats went 3-2 against the other power-ranked players in the previous month. It has to be noted that Stats’ overall record is a bit distorted since he would have surely picked up some more easy, stat-padding wins had he been forced to endure the qualifiers for GSL Season 2 and Super Tournament qualifiers like all the other shmucks. Or maybe, he wouldn't have qualified at all—we're still trying to figure out the bizarre dual nature of GSL-Stats and non-GSL-Stats. As a GSL finalist, Stats has to be in the conversation for best player in the world, though he seems to be a few steps back from the next few players.

#3: Dark



The last time we did this thing, Dark and Classic were warring for the title of best in the world. Many were eagerly awaiting a showdown between the two at IEM Katowice, but Dark’s surprise loss to Trap (an 'is-it-really-so-surprising?' repeat of a previous encounter) in the round of 12 meant we never got the much awaited showdown. Since that loss to Trap, Dark went 11-2 in subsequent tournaments. 11-2 is a pretty gaudy mark, especially when ten of those matches are in Code S and WESG. Furthermore, those two losses came in best-of-seven series against Maru—once in the semifinals and once in the grand final. Dark willed his way to victory in some of the best ZvT games of the year, as no other Zerg player came close to solving Maru's late game.

As fate would have it, Dark is looking at another possible semifinal clash with Maru in the Super Tournament. He'll probably lose. In the end, Dark’s exploits over the last thirty odd days were largely familiar. He beat the players he was supposed to beat, looked as strong and impressive as anyone can possibly look while still losing, and ultimately failed to win a championship.

#2: Rogue



Rogue wasn't even a part of our pre-Katowice ranking—that's how indignant we felt when the reigning WCS Global Champion bowed out of the Code S RO32. But all he needed was one weekend to flip the script. Rogue rattled off eight straight wins under the most demanding of circumstances at IEM Katowice (amusingly enough, he dropped a single match to Serral to begin his tournament), and earned the title of world champion for the second time in the last six months.

Rogue fell back to earth after that, though, going a rather shabby 13-8 in matches from March 5th onwards. He posted a 5-1 mark in ZvT, with wins over MMA and Ryung playing a crucial role in earning him a spot in the Super Tournament. It took him two tries to break into Code S, but wins over puCK and TRUE got him over the hump. A pair of successful qualifications is good news for Rogue fans, but the fact that he stumbled to a 8-7 record against Protoss and Zerg since Katowice should temper their optimism. His ZvP in particular has been nothing to write home about, with losses to Stats, Trap, Zest and herO offset only by wins over Dandy, Dear, JYP and puCK. It's a bit of a head-scratcher, given Rogue's own admission that he's vexed by ZvT while he's confident in ZvP. Then again, nothing about Rogue has been consistent in the last six months—except his ability to win loads and loads of money.

We want to say Rogue needs to do better than he has in recent weeks, but he didn't have a problem summoning "much, much, ridiculously better" when he needed to at IEM. He can’t seem to lose a weekender, so things will probably work out just fine.

#1: Maru



March really was the month of Maru. He posted a ludicrous 17-3 mark during that period (20-3 if you allow us to squeeze in the February portion of IEM), with all three of those losses coming at IEM Katowice, a tournament in where he finished in the top four.

After IEM, Maru went on a scorching twelve-match winning streak that saw him crowned WESG and GSL champion, collecting victories against Stats, Dark (x2), Serral and sOs along the way. At WESG, Maru showed a slew of national number-ones that the number-one player in Korea resides on a whole other level. His Code S title was the first of his career, filling a long-empty spot on his trophy case. One has to wonder if an unprecedented IEM-WESG-GSL triple could have been Maru's for the taking if Rogue had not gone in such an inspired run at IEM.

Given how dominant Maru has been, everyone should be excited to see if he can keep his one month unbeaten streak alive in the super tournament. It's hard to think of a player who could stop him. Dark tested Maru at WESG, but their rematch didn’t look nearly as close. Stats was clearly outclassed in the finals, and it’s not as if the other semifinalist, soO, would have done any better. It may take Rogue—a player Maru has declared to be superior to Dark—to make it a fair match. Whatever happens, we're in for some incredible StarCraft II games in April.



Credits and acknowledgements

Ranking contributors: TeamLiquid.net writing staff
Writers: Mizenhauer, Wax
Editor: Wax
Photo: via Adela Sznajder
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TL+ Member
Haku
Profile Joined August 2013
Germany550 Posts
April 04 2018 10:11 GMT
#2
Thanks for the nice ranking! Good that we have a new one now. Up-To-Date with the current upsets :-P
Jaedong | Life | MKP | PartinG | LosirA | ByuN | TaeJa | TY | TLO | Bomber | HerO | Rotti | Dark | Stephano | Maru | Ragnarok | MC | IdrA | Serral | Creator | Bunny | INnoVation | Liquid | Prime | JinAir
Waxangel
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States33277 Posts
April 04 2018 10:19 GMT
#3
I'm ashamed that Solar is ranked so low. Wait, am I ashamed of myself?
AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-04-04 10:29:23
April 04 2018 10:28 GMT
#4
The two notable players not mentioned here are ByuN and herO. I rather think that ByuN probably deserves to sneak into the top 16. As for herO his spot in KeSPA jail is well merited after losing to eMotion, but there's some weird stuff going on with his form so who the hell knows.
Azhrak
Profile Joined January 2011
Finland1194 Posts
April 04 2018 10:36 GMT
#5
First Serral conquered battle.net, then he made history in aligulac, and now he is climbing the power rank - it's only a matter of time until he claims this peak as well.
starcraft2.fi
YamiRi
Profile Joined September 2015
152 Posts
April 04 2018 10:50 GMT
#6
On April 04 2018 19:36 Azhrak wrote:
First Serral conquered battle.net, then he made history in aligulac, and now he is climbing the power rank - it's only a matter of time until he claims this peak as well.


The only peak he need to overcome is to beat Korean Terran though.. it's proven to be super hard for foreigner (except for Showtime and Scarlett probably)
Ej_
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
47656 Posts
April 04 2018 10:51 GMT
#7
Zest won 3 bo5s vs GuMiho in March, not 2

Poor Gumi
"Technically the dictionary has zero authority on the meaning or words" - Rodya
Durnuu
Profile Joined September 2013
13319 Posts
April 04 2018 10:52 GMT
#8
My boy Trap got robbed
BUNNYYYYYYYYY https://i.imgur.com/BiCF577.png
Mun_Su
Profile Joined December 2012
France2063 Posts
April 04 2018 10:52 GMT
#9
On April 04 2018 19:50 YamiRi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 04 2018 19:36 Azhrak wrote:
First Serral conquered battle.net, then he made history in aligulac, and now he is climbing the power rank - it's only a matter of time until he claims this peak as well.


The only peak he need to overcome is to beat Korean Terran though.. it's proven to be super hard for foreigner (except for Showtime and Scarlett probably)



Showtime has a very bad record against Foreigner Terrans

Inno need to get his shit together !
INno <3 - TY - Maru - Taeja - Rain <3 - Classic <3 - Stephano <3 - soO <3 - Soulkey - Dark - SERRAL =O / END REGION LOCK
Soularion
Profile Blog Joined January 2014
Canada2764 Posts
April 04 2018 10:53 GMT
#10
On April 04 2018 19:28 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
The two notable players not mentioned here are ByuN and herO. I rather think that ByuN probably deserves to sneak into the top 16. As for herO his spot in KeSPA jail is well merited after losing to eMotion, but there's some weird stuff going on with his form so who the hell knows.

ByuN has done nothing all year aside from beat Impact a couple times at Super Tournament quals. 0-4 to Trap, 0-2 to Classic, 0-2 to Solar. Completely unnoteworthy player. herO similarly hasn't done much to earn faith, and his complete collapse in GSL quals (not just losing to eMotion, but LosirA and Dear too - the fuck, herO?) kinda booted him off the list.
Writermaru pls
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12770 Posts
April 04 2018 11:29 GMT
#11
On April 04 2018 19:53 Soularion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 04 2018 19:28 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
The two notable players not mentioned here are ByuN and herO. I rather think that ByuN probably deserves to sneak into the top 16. As for herO his spot in KeSPA jail is well merited after losing to eMotion, but there's some weird stuff going on with his form so who the hell knows.

ByuN has done nothing all year aside from beat Impact a couple times at Super Tournament quals. 0-4 to Trap, 0-2 to Classic, 0-2 to Solar. Completely unnoteworthy player. herO similarly hasn't done much to earn faith, and his complete collapse in GSL quals (not just losing to eMotion, but LosirA and Dear too - the fuck, herO?) kinda booted him off the list.

He qualified for both GSL and GSL ST, and trashed herO / Stats / Creator. That's better than Impact.
WriterMaru
sparklyresidue
Profile Joined August 2011
United States5523 Posts
April 04 2018 11:43 GMT
#12
Fun read! Zest got lucky in my opinion but such is life. Hooray for Jin Air!
Like Tinkerbelle, I leave behind a sparkly residue.
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19219 Posts
April 04 2018 12:18 GMT
#13
I didn't see Alive up there. What gives?
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States16056 Posts
April 04 2018 12:49 GMT
#14
On April 04 2018 19:36 Azhrak wrote:
First Serral conquered battle.net, then he made history in aligulac, and now he is climbing the power rank - it's only a matter of time until he claims this peak as well.


I agree that Serral has been showing some pretty damn scary play, but no power ranker in their right mind is going to rank him higher than 5 without a Gold in a Global Event (and no, regionlocked WCS events do not count.)

Serral has been showing that he can hang with the best, but there's a large gap between hanging with the best and actually BEING the best.

Just ask Scarlett, prior to March and her exit from Code S she was looking just as dominant as Serral was except she actually had some GSL mojo to go with it. Didn't take long for her to get knocked down to a point where she isn't even on these rankings.

That's how fast things can change. That's how hard it is to stay on top.
aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States16056 Posts
April 04 2018 12:50 GMT
#15
On April 04 2018 21:18 BisuDagger wrote:
I didn't see Alive up there. What gives?


He's been looking damn good lately, I'm happy to see him on here he deserves it.
aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
Musicus
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany23576 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-04-04 12:59:32
April 04 2018 12:58 GMT
#16
Looks pretty good. Not sure about Trap yet, but why not.

Completely agree that Serral is the only foreigner who truly seems to be on the top Korean level.

Glad to see Stats is finally getting the respect he deserves! Top4 is fine. It's so close anyway.

I'm sure herO and ByuN will be back in the future.
Maru and Serral are probably top 5.
Nakajin
Profile Blog Joined September 2014
Canada8988 Posts
April 04 2018 13:02 GMT
#17
Good power rank
Writerhttp://i.imgur.com/9p6ufcB.jpg
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15899 Posts
April 04 2018 13:02 GMT
#18
A Power-ranking that I agree with!? What is this?
I'd probably switch Stats and Classic though
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Kurte_Idumin
Profile Joined March 2014
Australia22 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-04-04 13:16:33
April 04 2018 13:15 GMT
#19
Actually the title on homepage is really misreading
xelnaga_empire
Profile Joined March 2012
627 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-04-04 13:52:53
April 04 2018 13:52 GMT
#20
Aside from Maru, all the other Terran have a poor power rank. Sucks to be Terran now.
argonautdice
Profile Joined January 2013
Canada2711 Posts
April 04 2018 13:56 GMT
#21
great ranking! I pretty much agree with everything said
very illegal and very uncool
Soularion
Profile Blog Joined January 2014
Canada2764 Posts
April 04 2018 14:03 GMT
#22
On April 04 2018 20:29 Poopi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 04 2018 19:53 Soularion wrote:
On April 04 2018 19:28 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
The two notable players not mentioned here are ByuN and herO. I rather think that ByuN probably deserves to sneak into the top 16. As for herO his spot in KeSPA jail is well merited after losing to eMotion, but there's some weird stuff going on with his form so who the hell knows.

ByuN has done nothing all year aside from beat Impact a couple times at Super Tournament quals. 0-4 to Trap, 0-2 to Classic, 0-2 to Solar. Completely unnoteworthy player. herO similarly hasn't done much to earn faith, and his complete collapse in GSL quals (not just losing to eMotion, but LosirA and Dear too - the fuck, herO?) kinda booted him off the list.

He qualified for both GSL and GSL ST, and trashed herO / Stats / Creator. That's better than Impact.

So you're basically counting an online series against Stats and arguably herO, and then 2-1 wins vs Hurricane and Impact as him being top 16. Meanwhile Impact got out of IEM Katowice groups, beat Stats online *twice*, beat Dear and Rogue online, and recently beat Solar as well. His online repertoire is better, and while ByuN got the better of him at GSL ST quals, Impact showed up to IEM Katowice and proved he could play at a fairly high level when the stakes are high.
Writermaru pls
barcodeno1
Profile Joined October 2017
20 Posts
April 04 2018 14:29 GMT
#23
this rank should be a divide
serral is best foreign gamer in WCS but he didn't play in GSL and WCS Korea
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12770 Posts
April 04 2018 15:09 GMT
#24
On April 04 2018 23:03 Soularion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 04 2018 20:29 Poopi wrote:
On April 04 2018 19:53 Soularion wrote:
On April 04 2018 19:28 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
The two notable players not mentioned here are ByuN and herO. I rather think that ByuN probably deserves to sneak into the top 16. As for herO his spot in KeSPA jail is well merited after losing to eMotion, but there's some weird stuff going on with his form so who the hell knows.

ByuN has done nothing all year aside from beat Impact a couple times at Super Tournament quals. 0-4 to Trap, 0-2 to Classic, 0-2 to Solar. Completely unnoteworthy player. herO similarly hasn't done much to earn faith, and his complete collapse in GSL quals (not just losing to eMotion, but LosirA and Dear too - the fuck, herO?) kinda booted him off the list.

He qualified for both GSL and GSL ST, and trashed herO / Stats / Creator. That's better than Impact.

So you're basically counting an online series against Stats and arguably herO, and then 2-1 wins vs Hurricane and Impact as him being top 16. Meanwhile Impact got out of IEM Katowice groups, beat Stats online *twice*, beat Dear and Rogue online, and recently beat Solar as well. His online repertoire is better, and while ByuN got the better of him at GSL ST quals, Impact showed up to IEM Katowice and proved he could play at a fairly high level when the stakes are high.

It's very simple, let's do the math.
In 2018 :
Impact went from 2440 aligulac rating to 2442, he gained 2 points.
ByuN went from 2564 aligulac rating to 2588, he gained 24 points.

Not only did ByuN gain more points in 2018 than Impact, he was at an higher rating, so had he performed the same (same win/loss against the same players) as Impact, he would have gained less points than him (probably lost points).

WriterMaru
MockHamill
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden1798 Posts
April 04 2018 15:31 GMT
#25
I agree with Maru as number one but I would put Serral in the top 4.

He is the best foreign Zerg ever in pure skill.
BronzeKnee
Profile Joined March 2011
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-04-04 16:26:59
April 04 2018 16:24 GMT
#26
Finally, Maru deservedly tops the power rank! The anti-Maru bias has lived on for a long time, it must have been a bitter pill to swallow.

You'd think he would have recieved it after he became the youngest Royal Roader to win an OSL. But no he was placed second... Innovation was placed first.

That was in spite of the fact Maru had just rolled through Innovation 4-0.

On April 05 2018 00:31 MockHamill wrote:
I agree with Maru as number one but I would put Serral in the top 4.

He is the best foreign Zerg ever in pure skill.

Except for Stephano...
MockHamill
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden1798 Posts
April 04 2018 17:11 GMT
#27
On April 05 2018 01:24 BronzeKnee wrote:
Finally, Maru deservedly tops the power rank! The anti-Maru bias has lived on for a long time, it must have been a bitter pill to swallow.

You'd think he would have recieved it after he became the youngest Royal Roader to win an OSL. But no he was placed second... Innovation was placed first.

That was in spite of the fact Maru had just rolled through Innovation 4-0.

Show nested quote +
On April 05 2018 00:31 MockHamill wrote:
I agree with Maru as number one but I would put Serral in the top 4.

He is the best foreign Zerg ever in pure skill.

Except for Stephano...


The skill level is so much higher now compared to when Stephano was at his best.
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15899 Posts
April 04 2018 17:11 GMT
#28
On April 04 2018 22:52 xelnaga_empire wrote:
Aside from Maru, all the other Terran have a poor power rank. Sucks to be Terran now.

If they would just abuse OP Ravens like Maru does top 10 Power Rank would be only terrans.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15899 Posts
April 04 2018 17:14 GMT
#29
On April 05 2018 00:31 MockHamill wrote:
I agree with Maru as number one but I would put Serral in the top 4.

He is the best foreign Zerg ever in pure skill.

Serral is good but there's no way he's a top 5 player right now.
For that he got beaten too badly by Maru and Classic (in the series that mattered).

Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Fango
Profile Joined July 2016
United Kingdom8987 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-04-04 18:20:56
April 04 2018 18:14 GMT
#30
On April 04 2018 19:10 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote:
Serral hasn't set foot in the GSL, but he's beat enough GSL players to have a top ten power rank spot on lockdown. Here's the list of Code S (Season 1 & 2) players he beat on his way to top four finishes at IEM and WESG: Rogue, Impact, Zest, Trap, Classic, Elazer, and TRUE.

I'm not sure I agree with this. His top 4 finishes at IEM and WeSG are impressive result wise, but he had much easier runs than the other players. I prefer to rank people based on performance/runs, not just the result. The only top 10 players Serral beat were Rogue and Classic (in the wesg match at least). Which admittedly are very tough opponents, even if both of them have vZ as their weakest MU, so I'll give him that.

I'd still put Serral in the top 15 somewhere just for his ridiculous consistancy in wins, even if they aren't against the absolute best.
Zest, sOs, PartinG, Dark, and Maru are the real champs. ROOT_herO is overrated. Snute, Serral, and Scarlett are the foreigner GOATs
MockHamill
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden1798 Posts
April 04 2018 18:33 GMT
#31
Serral all-killed Korea. His aligulac ranking is the highest in the world.

Except for Maru I do not see any Korean that is clearly better. He is on the same level as Dark and Classic.
Durnuu
Profile Joined September 2013
13319 Posts
April 04 2018 18:34 GMT
#32
On April 05 2018 03:33 MockHamill wrote:
Serral all-killed Korea. His aligulac ranking is the highest in the world.

Except for Maru I do not see any Korean that is clearly better. He is on the same level as Dark and Classic.

Serral didn't all-kill Korea. Unless Poland = Korea in your mind.
BUNNYYYYYYYYY https://i.imgur.com/BiCF577.png
MockHamill
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden1798 Posts
April 04 2018 19:34 GMT
#33
On April 05 2018 03:34 Durnuu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2018 03:33 MockHamill wrote:
Serral all-killed Korea. His aligulac ranking is the highest in the world.

Except for Maru I do not see any Korean that is clearly better. He is on the same level as Dark and Classic.

Serral didn't all-kill Korea. Unless Poland = Korea in your mind.


I provided some alternative facts. Still, Koreans are overrated. The gap used to be huge but it is not any more.

Top Koreans are just slightly better than top foreigners now and I think Serral will pass every Korean (with the possible exception of Maru) within a year.
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
April 04 2018 20:02 GMT
#34
On April 05 2018 04:34 MockHamill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2018 03:34 Durnuu wrote:
On April 05 2018 03:33 MockHamill wrote:
Serral all-killed Korea. His aligulac ranking is the highest in the world.

Except for Maru I do not see any Korean that is clearly better. He is on the same level as Dark and Classic.

Serral didn't all-kill Korea. Unless Poland = Korea in your mind.


I provided some alternative facts. Still, Koreans are overrated. The gap used to be huge but it is not any more.

Top Koreans are just slightly better than top foreigners now and I think Serral will pass every Korean (with the possible exception of Maru) within a year.

Yeah foreigners are so close that serral was literally the only foreigner who made it out of groups at IEM WC.
Serral is by far the best foreigner now and basically korean lvl, still worse than the absolute top players though and especially in zvt he might lose vs any good korean terran.
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12770 Posts
April 04 2018 20:15 GMT
#35
Serral hasn't reached Stephano level yet, far from it.
Losing to Kelazhur is disappointing even tho it was mech which is easy enough for foreigners / Gumiho level mechanics

Top 8 for a foreigner is an Amazing ranking already, top 4 would be silly
WriterMaru
neutralrobot
Profile Joined July 2011
Australia1025 Posts
April 04 2018 20:15 GMT
#36
On April 05 2018 04:34 MockHamill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2018 03:34 Durnuu wrote:
On April 05 2018 03:33 MockHamill wrote:
Serral all-killed Korea. His aligulac ranking is the highest in the world.

Except for Maru I do not see any Korean that is clearly better. He is on the same level as Dark and Classic.

Serral didn't all-kill Korea. Unless Poland = Korea in your mind.


I provided some alternative facts. Still, Koreans are overrated. The gap used to be huge but it is not any more.

Top Koreans are just slightly better than top foreigners now and I think Serral will pass every Korean (with the possible exception of Maru) within a year.


Maybe if/when that happens, TL will put him further up in the power ranks. I feel like they justified their position pretty well.

I really liked this power rank, not least because Maru is at the top of it. The only thing I would potentially change is swapping Dark and Rogue. Rogue had a hot streak and his form is still a bit of a confusing question mark. I feel like if Maru becomes SC2's Flash (I know, I know... but a guy can dream, right?), Rogue could be SC2's Jaedong. But we're not there quite yet. Despite the painful familiarity of Dark's overall inability to take a championship while looking as good as possible, I think his consistency should probably put him a step above Rogue right now.

But I guess we'll see what happens at the ST. It could be Rogue's kinda tournament. Maru-Rogue finals?
Maru | Life | PartinG || I guess I like aggressive control freaks... || Reynor will one day reign supreme || *reyn supreme
Tyrhanius
Profile Joined April 2011
France947 Posts
April 04 2018 20:17 GMT
#37
Impact >Byun :p
scoo2r
Profile Joined December 2015
Canada90 Posts
April 04 2018 20:20 GMT
#38
Maru definitely the player to beat!
Another day, another depot.
Mun_Su
Profile Joined December 2012
France2063 Posts
April 04 2018 20:42 GMT
#39
On April 05 2018 04:34 MockHamill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2018 03:34 Durnuu wrote:
On April 05 2018 03:33 MockHamill wrote:
Serral all-killed Korea. His aligulac ranking is the highest in the world.

Except for Maru I do not see any Korean that is clearly better. He is on the same level as Dark and Classic.

Serral didn't all-kill Korea. Unless Poland = Korea in your mind.


I provided some alternative facts. Still, Koreans are overrated. The gap used to be huge but it is not any more.

Top Koreans are just slightly better than top foreigners now and I think Serral will pass every Korean (with the possible exception of Maru) within a year.



Are you a troll ?
INno <3 - TY - Maru - Taeja - Rain <3 - Classic <3 - Stephano <3 - soO <3 - Soulkey - Dark - SERRAL =O / END REGION LOCK
SnowAngel
Profile Joined January 2012
Finland38 Posts
April 04 2018 20:44 GMT
#40
On April 05 2018 05:15 Poopi wrote:
Serral hasn't reached Stephano level yet, far from it.


According to Stephano himself, he is a lot better nowadays than at the time of his greatest results. The game was simply easier then, people weren't that good.

Source:


And I would make a brave argument, without providing any evidence, that Serral is infinitely better than Stephano in the present. Stephano is still a good player, better than many give him credit for, but he is playing in a different league than Serral (figuratively speaking).
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12770 Posts
April 04 2018 21:09 GMT
#41
The whole "the game was easier back then" thing is is bullshit tho ^^'.
The game was different, not easier not harder. It was still difficult as hell to stay consistently at the top, and if you send current players into the past they wouldn't be able to dominate.

Stephano had a far better relative skill level back then.
He now thinks Serral is better because he is better currently.
WriterMaru
D-light
Profile Joined April 2012
Finland7364 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-04-04 21:54:02
April 04 2018 21:35 GMT
#42
On April 04 2018 21:49 Vindicare605 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 04 2018 19:36 Azhrak wrote:
First Serral conquered battle.net, then he made history in aligulac, and now he is climbing the power rank - it's only a matter of time until he claims this peak as well.

Just ask Scarlett, prior to March and her exit from Code S she was looking just as dominant as Serral was except she actually had some GSL mojo to go with it. Didn't take long for her to get knocked down to a point where she isn't even on these rankings.

That's how fast things can change. That's how hard it is to stay on top.

Scarlett had certain "GSL mojo", but outside of that and then PyeongChang she hasn't shown much in the recent past. Serral has actually been continuously improving during the last year after finishing high school and has the potential to further improve, with more practice in Korea for example.
why even
Waxangel
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States33277 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-04-04 21:51:02
April 04 2018 21:46 GMT
#43
Scarlett was incredible in the IEM PyeongChang run, but in a weird sense, it felt like cashing a late check for a tournament she "deserved" to win in 2014. That version of Scarlett still feels like the better player than present Scarlett, and maybe even by a considerable margin. Consistently strong macro play is always going to seem like the most impressive way to win, unless you're a god-tier cheese player like sOs or just have incredible game sense like Life (and both of them played good macro in their primes too).
AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?
Solar424
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
United States4001 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-04-04 22:31:35
April 04 2018 22:24 GMT
#44
On April 05 2018 06:46 Waxangel wrote:
Scarlett was incredible in the IEM PyeongChang run, but in a weird sense, it felt like cashing a late check for a tournament she "deserved" to win in 2014. That version of Scarlett still feels like the better player than present Scarlett, and maybe even by a considerable margin. Consistently strong macro play is always going to seem like the most impressive way to win, unless you're a god-tier cheese player like sOs or just have incredible game sense like Life (and both of them played good macro in their primes too).

If Scarlett beat Trap there's no doubt in my mind she would have won MLG Anaheim. She had beat Polt and Violet earlier that week at Red Bull, with 3 straight Bo3 wins against Polt. I'm still a little upset about game 3 of that series vs Trap.
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-04-04 23:09:16
April 04 2018 23:08 GMT
#45
On April 05 2018 07:24 Solar424 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2018 06:46 Waxangel wrote:
Scarlett was incredible in the IEM PyeongChang run, but in a weird sense, it felt like cashing a late check for a tournament she "deserved" to win in 2014. That version of Scarlett still feels like the better player than present Scarlett, and maybe even by a considerable margin. Consistently strong macro play is always going to seem like the most impressive way to win, unless you're a god-tier cheese player like sOs or just have incredible game sense like Life (and both of them played good macro in their primes too).

If Scarlett beat Trap there's no doubt in my mind she would have won MLG Anaheim. She had beat Polt and Violet earlier that week at Red Bull, with 3 straight Bo3 wins against Polt. I'm still a little upset about game 3 of that series vs Trap.


"What if" scenarios are innumerable, but "What if Mvp was healthy" and "What if Life didn't matchfix" are by far the biggest.
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
Jj_82
Profile Joined December 2012
Swaziland419 Posts
April 04 2018 23:09 GMT
#46
On April 04 2018 22:52 xelnaga_empire wrote:
Aside from Maru, all the other Terran have a poor power rank. Sucks to be Terran now.
Don't worry just play like Maru.
Once rode a waterslide with PartinG and TaeJa ✌
Jj_82
Profile Joined December 2012
Swaziland419 Posts
April 04 2018 23:11 GMT
#47
Great power rank. Funny too read, too.
Once rode a waterslide with PartinG and TaeJa ✌
Shellshock
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States97276 Posts
April 04 2018 23:16 GMT
#48
On April 05 2018 06:46 Waxangel wrote:
Scarlett was incredible in the IEM PyeongChang run, but in a weird sense, it felt like cashing a late check for a tournament she "deserved" to win in 2014. That version of Scarlett still feels like the better player than present Scarlett, and maybe even by a considerable margin. Consistently strong macro play is always going to seem like the most impressive way to win, unless you're a god-tier cheese player like sOs or just have incredible game sense like Life (and both of them played good macro in their primes too).

HIGHEST
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ERA
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TL+ Member
Jj_82
Profile Joined December 2012
Swaziland419 Posts
April 04 2018 23:16 GMT
#49
Just for the sake of having some more names here: Serral, Neeb, Special. Best foreigners atm. I do especially miss Juan in the ranking. He seems to play really fantastic lately.
Once rode a waterslide with PartinG and TaeJa ✌
fishjie
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1519 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-04-04 23:19:38
April 04 2018 23:19 GMT
#50
On April 05 2018 06:09 Poopi wrote:
The whole "the game was easier back then" thing is is bullshit tho ^^'.
The game was different, not easier not harder. It was still difficult as hell to stay consistently at the top, and if you send current players into the past they wouldn't be able to dominate.

Stephano had a far better relative skill level back then.
He now thinks Serral is better because he is better currently.


WRONG

the level of play now is much higher

hence all the old champions had to retire cause they couldn't hang anymore. except maru. because he is a GOD

edit: so sad about soo though. damn man, please win a tournament! I BELIEVE
Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States16056 Posts
April 05 2018 01:39 GMT
#51
On April 05 2018 04:34 MockHamill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2018 03:34 Durnuu wrote:
On April 05 2018 03:33 MockHamill wrote:
Serral all-killed Korea. His aligulac ranking is the highest in the world.

Except for Maru I do not see any Korean that is clearly better. He is on the same level as Dark and Classic.

Serral didn't all-kill Korea. Unless Poland = Korea in your mind.


I provided some alternative facts. Still, Koreans are overrated. The gap used to be huge but it is not any more.

Top Koreans are just slightly better than top foreigners now and I think Serral will pass every Korean (with the possible exception of Maru) within a year.


There is literally zero evidence to suggest that the gap is narrower than it has been in the past.

During Stephano's era, Stephano was frequently either winning or going to finals in global events against code S quality Koreans.

Serral as good as he is, the best he has managed is top 4 in global events.

He's good, but the Koreans are better. The gap hasn't gone anywhere. The skill level of foreign players has definitely improved over the years but the Koreans have gotten better too.

There is zero evidence to suggest that the gap is narrowed. Literally none. You can't just argue that point and have no results to back it up.
aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States16056 Posts
April 05 2018 01:42 GMT
#52
On April 05 2018 06:35 D-light wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 04 2018 21:49 Vindicare605 wrote:
On April 04 2018 19:36 Azhrak wrote:
First Serral conquered battle.net, then he made history in aligulac, and now he is climbing the power rank - it's only a matter of time until he claims this peak as well.

Just ask Scarlett, prior to March and her exit from Code S she was looking just as dominant as Serral was except she actually had some GSL mojo to go with it. Didn't take long for her to get knocked down to a point where she isn't even on these rankings.

That's how fast things can change. That's how hard it is to stay on top.

Scarlett had certain "GSL mojo", but outside of that and then PyeongChang she hasn't shown much in the recent past. Serral has actually been continuously improving during the last year after finishing high school and has the potential to further improve, with more practice in Korea for example.


And yet, Scarlett won a global non-regionlocked event, something that Serral has NOT managed to do in his career.

Results speak louder than anything else. As good as Serral is right now, he hasn't proven anything other than he's the best foreign player right now, but many people have held that title over the years and yet the gap in skill between them and the top Koreans hasn't gone anywhere.

Until Serral wins a global in a non-regionlocked event. He can't climb any higher than "best foreigner." That's just all there is to it.
aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-04-05 02:03:10
April 05 2018 01:56 GMT
#53
On April 05 2018 10:42 Vindicare605 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2018 06:35 D-light wrote:
On April 04 2018 21:49 Vindicare605 wrote:
On April 04 2018 19:36 Azhrak wrote:
First Serral conquered battle.net, then he made history in aligulac, and now he is climbing the power rank - it's only a matter of time until he claims this peak as well.

Just ask Scarlett, prior to March and her exit from Code S she was looking just as dominant as Serral was except she actually had some GSL mojo to go with it. Didn't take long for her to get knocked down to a point where she isn't even on these rankings.

That's how fast things can change. That's how hard it is to stay on top.

Scarlett had certain "GSL mojo", but outside of that and then PyeongChang she hasn't shown much in the recent past. Serral has actually been continuously improving during the last year after finishing high school and has the potential to further improve, with more practice in Korea for example.


And yet, Scarlett won a global non-regionlocked event, something that Serral has NOT managed to do in his career.

Results speak louder than anything else. As good as Serral is right now, he hasn't proven anything other than he's the best foreign player right now, but many people have held that title over the years and yet the gap in skill between them and the top Koreans hasn't gone anywhere.

Until Serral wins a global in a non-regionlocked event. He can't climb any higher than "best foreigner." That's just all there is to it.


Calling IEM Pyeongchang a "global non-regionlocked event" comes with a huge asterisk, since only 2 Koreans could actually participate and Scarlett only played one of them. Add the fact that they were Zest and sOs, two Protoss players in a ZvP meta that Blizzard nerfed soon afterwards, then add the fact that Scarlett relied heavily on cheese to win, and you get a trophy built on ZvZ + ZvP cheese acknowledged by Blizzard as imbalanced.

A win is a win, of course. That being said, Serral has impressed me considerably more than Scarlett in 2018. If we're talking about gaps and closing them, defeating Koreans in macro games as Serral did is a thousand times more significant than cheesing them out as Scarlett did.
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
FrostedMiniWheats
Profile Joined August 2010
United States30730 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-04-05 03:18:19
April 05 2018 03:11 GMT
#54
On April 05 2018 08:19 fishjie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2018 06:09 Poopi wrote:
The whole "the game was easier back then" thing is is bullshit tho ^^'.
The game was different, not easier not harder. It was still difficult as hell to stay consistently at the top, and if you send current players into the past they wouldn't be able to dominate.

Stephano had a far better relative skill level back then.
He now thinks Serral is better because he is better currently.


WRONG

the level of play now is much higher

hence all the old champions had to retire cause they couldn't hang anymore. except maru. because he is a GOD

edit: so sad about soo though. damn man, please win a tournament! I BELIEVE


Retiring doesn't necessarily mean they couldn't hang anymore, they could've easily just lost motivation after achieving success. Look at Rain and Soulkey, they could still be top-tier players but instead they went back to BW. Looking at the sorry state of opportunities for the Koreans these days compared to the past it wouldn't surprise me.

With Nestea, Mvp, Jjakji, Sniper and Seed you kinda have a point. Although even then there are excuses for why they all quickly fell off: Nestea was old by progamer standards even back in 2010 while Mvp had wrist issues and won pretty much everything under the sun already. Meanwhile, Jjakji, Sniper, and Seed never had much staying power to begin with and their GSL wins were all unexpected.

In contrast to that, MMA, DRG, MC, and Polt all proved they could still be competitive numerous times over the years. Even guys who weren't champs but really should've been like PartinG, Bomber and Taeja remained highly relevant across expansions.

Also, why not look at this argument from another direction? ByuN and Gumiho have had amazing success in LotV compared to their WoL and HotS levels while guys like aLive and Ryung are having their best results since WoL.
NesTea | Mvp | MC | Leenock | Losira | Gumiho | DRG | Taeja | Jinro | Stephano | Thorzain | Sen | Idra |Polt | Bomber | Symbol | Squirtle | Fantasy | Jaedong | Maru | sOs | Seed | ByuN | ByuL | Neeb| Scarlett | Rogue | IM forever
Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States16056 Posts
April 05 2018 03:25 GMT
#55
On April 05 2018 10:56 pvsnp wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2018 10:42 Vindicare605 wrote:
On April 05 2018 06:35 D-light wrote:
On April 04 2018 21:49 Vindicare605 wrote:
On April 04 2018 19:36 Azhrak wrote:
First Serral conquered battle.net, then he made history in aligulac, and now he is climbing the power rank - it's only a matter of time until he claims this peak as well.

Just ask Scarlett, prior to March and her exit from Code S she was looking just as dominant as Serral was except she actually had some GSL mojo to go with it. Didn't take long for her to get knocked down to a point where she isn't even on these rankings.

That's how fast things can change. That's how hard it is to stay on top.

Scarlett had certain "GSL mojo", but outside of that and then PyeongChang she hasn't shown much in the recent past. Serral has actually been continuously improving during the last year after finishing high school and has the potential to further improve, with more practice in Korea for example.


And yet, Scarlett won a global non-regionlocked event, something that Serral has NOT managed to do in his career.

Results speak louder than anything else. As good as Serral is right now, he hasn't proven anything other than he's the best foreign player right now, but many people have held that title over the years and yet the gap in skill between them and the top Koreans hasn't gone anywhere.

Until Serral wins a global in a non-regionlocked event. He can't climb any higher than "best foreigner." That's just all there is to it.


Calling IEM Pyeongchang a "global non-regionlocked event" comes with a huge asterisk, since only 2 Koreans could actually participate and Scarlett only played one of them. Add the fact that they were Zest and sOs, two Protoss players in a ZvP meta that Blizzard nerfed soon afterwards, then add the fact that Scarlett relied heavily on cheese to win, and you get a trophy built on ZvZ + ZvP cheese acknowledged by Blizzard as imbalanced.

A win is a win, of course. That being said, Serral has impressed me considerably more than Scarlett in 2018. If we're talking about gaps and closing them, defeating Koreans in macro games as Serral did is a thousand times more significant than cheesing them out as Scarlett did.


Of course IEM Pyeongchang wasn't anything like the level of IEM Katowice or even Blizzcon, but the point still stands.

I understand Serral is riding an enormous wave of hype and momentum right now because of what he's doing on ladder right now and how good he looked at Katowice (hell I was cheering for him too) but so far he hasn't shown anything that would suggest his level is higher than Scarlett's at her peak or even Neeb who we all just seemed to forget about, when they were beating Koreans.

The gap is still there, these top foreigners might get hot or get some bracket luck and get far in a tournament and people get excited, but there's still nothing resembling at the top level the level of consistency Stephano had against the level of "RELATIVE" competition he was consistently against.

So, while I'm as excited to see what Serral can do as the next guy we need to not start drawing these dumb conclusions before the fact.
aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-04-05 03:46:40
April 05 2018 03:43 GMT
#56
On April 05 2018 12:25 Vindicare605 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2018 10:56 pvsnp wrote:
On April 05 2018 10:42 Vindicare605 wrote:
On April 05 2018 06:35 D-light wrote:
On April 04 2018 21:49 Vindicare605 wrote:
On April 04 2018 19:36 Azhrak wrote:
First Serral conquered battle.net, then he made history in aligulac, and now he is climbing the power rank - it's only a matter of time until he claims this peak as well.

Just ask Scarlett, prior to March and her exit from Code S she was looking just as dominant as Serral was except she actually had some GSL mojo to go with it. Didn't take long for her to get knocked down to a point where she isn't even on these rankings.

That's how fast things can change. That's how hard it is to stay on top.

Scarlett had certain "GSL mojo", but outside of that and then PyeongChang she hasn't shown much in the recent past. Serral has actually been continuously improving during the last year after finishing high school and has the potential to further improve, with more practice in Korea for example.


And yet, Scarlett won a global non-regionlocked event, something that Serral has NOT managed to do in his career.

Results speak louder than anything else. As good as Serral is right now, he hasn't proven anything other than he's the best foreign player right now, but many people have held that title over the years and yet the gap in skill between them and the top Koreans hasn't gone anywhere.

Until Serral wins a global in a non-regionlocked event. He can't climb any higher than "best foreigner." That's just all there is to it.


Calling IEM Pyeongchang a "global non-regionlocked event" comes with a huge asterisk, since only 2 Koreans could actually participate and Scarlett only played one of them. Add the fact that they were Zest and sOs, two Protoss players in a ZvP meta that Blizzard nerfed soon afterwards, then add the fact that Scarlett relied heavily on cheese to win, and you get a trophy built on ZvZ + ZvP cheese acknowledged by Blizzard as imbalanced.

A win is a win, of course. That being said, Serral has impressed me considerably more than Scarlett in 2018. If we're talking about gaps and closing them, defeating Koreans in macro games as Serral did is a thousand times more significant than cheesing them out as Scarlett did.


Of course IEM Pyeongchang wasn't anything like the level of IEM Katowice or even Blizzcon, but the point still stands.

I understand Serral is riding an enormous wave of hype and momentum right now because of what he's doing on ladder right now and how good he looked at Katowice (hell I was cheering for him too) but so far he hasn't shown anything that would suggest his level is higher than Scarlett's at her peak or even Neeb who we all just seemed to forget about, when they were beating Koreans.

The gap is still there, these top foreigners might get hot or get some bracket luck and get far in a tournament and people get excited, but there's still nothing resembling at the top level the level of consistency Stephano had against the level of "RELATIVE" competition he was consistently against.

So, while I'm as excited to see what Serral can do as the next guy we need to not start drawing these dumb conclusions before the fact.


Me saying the gap is closed? Me drawing dumb conclusions before the fact? You sure you have the right guy?

I'm the guy who wrote this about the gap, in case you missed it when I originally posted:

KeSPA is gone and the Korean teams (except JAGW) with it, but time and time again we've seen that foreigners simply cannot compete with the top Koreans in any consistent fashion. The Korean veterans, born and raised under KeSPA's banner, still retain enough of their old skill to smash foreign hopes time and time again.

What happens when the top 4 of every Circuit tournament are Korean? How long will the foreign scene stay quiet about the parade of Korean champions? It wouldn't even take half the number of Koreans as there are foreigners in Korea to upend the foreign scene. If Stats, Maru, Rogue, and Dark attend every event, who do you think will be in the semifinals? Substitute whatever top 4 Koreans you like.
(Context here was removing region-lock)

As it stands, the foreigners have their own pond and their own big fish, but they've never thrived in the ocean. Neeb gave the foreigners hope in 2016 before falling short a year later. Scarlett gave them hope in GSL 2017 before dying in the Ro32. Major gave them hope at Blizzcon before dropping off the map. Scarlett came back to give them an insane high before reality (and dropperlord nerfs) came crashing down.

Upsets happen, as they always have. How are the upsets of today any different from when Life lost to Sjow, or Inno to Naniwa? Do you remember the GSL World Championship in 2011? The Koreans scraped their way to a 8-7 victory off JulyZerg's miracle run and foreigners exulted that the gap was closed. Then the next seven years of SC2 happened.

The mid-tier players of Korea are either dead or dying. Domestic interest in Korean SC2 is a fading memory. The foreign scene as a whole is closer to the asthmatic shell of the Korean scene than it ever has been. But the last few Koreans that bestrode the world in their prime are still standing, and no foreigner has ever matched them.

Yes, SC2 in Korea is a shadow of its former glory. Yes, the Korean scene is living on borrowed time, with the doomsday clock of military service hanging over everyone's heads. But until the last generation of Korean champions finally steps down, their skill will keep the gap in existence, and region-lock in place.

(Sorry for the bombast, I'm feeling melodramatic today)
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States16056 Posts
April 05 2018 05:34 GMT
#57
Sorry you're right, I was directing the whole "drawing conclusions thing" at the other people in this thread. You just brought up a valid point that Pyeongchang needed an asterisk, which it does.

I just lumped you in with the Serral fans my posts are arguing with, my fault. Sorry about that.
aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-04-05 06:13:22
April 05 2018 05:59 GMT
#58
On April 05 2018 14:34 Vindicare605 wrote:
Sorry you're right, I was directing the whole "drawing conclusions thing" at the other people in this thread. You just brought up a valid point that Pyeongchang needed an asterisk, which it does.

I just lumped you in with the Serral fans my posts are arguing with, my fault. Sorry about that.


No problem, I've been there before too.

Drawing premature conclusions and getting swept up in hype is one of the most annoying things about the forums, imo, so I sympathize with your stance here. It seems to happen every time someone (especially foreigners) has any kind of upset, and annoys me to no end because people never seem to learn from the inevitable fall from grace. As soon as the next player of the week does something remotely unexpected, people jump on that hype bandwagon too.

Remember this article? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/531006-veni-vidi-vici-the-international-era-part-1

Cheesing a better player does not overturn consistent inferiority. Winning something online does not mean offline success. Lifting a trophy does not make you the greatest of all time. Enthusiasm is not a substitute for sanity.

Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
Corvuuss
Profile Blog Joined April 2014
Austria354 Posts
April 05 2018 08:10 GMT
#59
On April 05 2018 00:09 Poopi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 04 2018 23:03 Soularion wrote:
On April 04 2018 20:29 Poopi wrote:
On April 04 2018 19:53 Soularion wrote:
On April 04 2018 19:28 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
The two notable players not mentioned here are ByuN and herO. I rather think that ByuN probably deserves to sneak into the top 16. As for herO his spot in KeSPA jail is well merited after losing to eMotion, but there's some weird stuff going on with his form so who the hell knows.

ByuN has done nothing all year aside from beat Impact a couple times at Super Tournament quals. 0-4 to Trap, 0-2 to Classic, 0-2 to Solar. Completely unnoteworthy player. herO similarly hasn't done much to earn faith, and his complete collapse in GSL quals (not just losing to eMotion, but LosirA and Dear too - the fuck, herO?) kinda booted him off the list.

He qualified for both GSL and GSL ST, and trashed herO / Stats / Creator. That's better than Impact.

So you're basically counting an online series against Stats and arguably herO, and then 2-1 wins vs Hurricane and Impact as him being top 16. Meanwhile Impact got out of IEM Katowice groups, beat Stats online *twice*, beat Dear and Rogue online, and recently beat Solar as well. His online repertoire is better, and while ByuN got the better of him at GSL ST quals, Impact showed up to IEM Katowice and proved he could play at a fairly high level when the stakes are high.

It's very simple, let's do the math.
In 2018 :
Impact went from 2440 aligulac rating to 2442, he gained 2 points.
ByuN went from 2564 aligulac rating to 2588, he gained 24 points.

Not only did ByuN gain more points in 2018 than Impact, he was at an higher rating, so had he performed the same (same win/loss against the same players) as Impact, he would have gained less points than him (probably lost points).




Oh aligulac points a system which means pretty much nothing (like the power ranking but that has a nice read to it and it is made by people who can consider more than numbers).

I like the power ranks by the way it adds a little bit of story to the scene.
I am a slave of Golden from now on. Obey a supreme leader of StarCraft 2 or you get banned. I am really glad to be citizen of Democratic republic of Golden.
MockHamill
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden1798 Posts
April 05 2018 08:30 GMT
#60
On April 05 2018 17:10 Corvuuss wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2018 00:09 Poopi wrote:
On April 04 2018 23:03 Soularion wrote:
On April 04 2018 20:29 Poopi wrote:
On April 04 2018 19:53 Soularion wrote:
On April 04 2018 19:28 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
The two notable players not mentioned here are ByuN and herO. I rather think that ByuN probably deserves to sneak into the top 16. As for herO his spot in KeSPA jail is well merited after losing to eMotion, but there's some weird stuff going on with his form so who the hell knows.

ByuN has done nothing all year aside from beat Impact a couple times at Super Tournament quals. 0-4 to Trap, 0-2 to Classic, 0-2 to Solar. Completely unnoteworthy player. herO similarly hasn't done much to earn faith, and his complete collapse in GSL quals (not just losing to eMotion, but LosirA and Dear too - the fuck, herO?) kinda booted him off the list.

He qualified for both GSL and GSL ST, and trashed herO / Stats / Creator. That's better than Impact.

So you're basically counting an online series against Stats and arguably herO, and then 2-1 wins vs Hurricane and Impact as him being top 16. Meanwhile Impact got out of IEM Katowice groups, beat Stats online *twice*, beat Dear and Rogue online, and recently beat Solar as well. His online repertoire is better, and while ByuN got the better of him at GSL ST quals, Impact showed up to IEM Katowice and proved he could play at a fairly high level when the stakes are high.

It's very simple, let's do the math.
In 2018 :
Impact went from 2440 aligulac rating to 2442, he gained 2 points.
ByuN went from 2564 aligulac rating to 2588, he gained 24 points.

Not only did ByuN gain more points in 2018 than Impact, he was at an higher rating, so had he performed the same (same win/loss against the same players) as Impact, he would have gained less points than him (probably lost points).




Oh aligulac points a system which means pretty much nothing (like the power ranking but that has a nice read to it and it is made by people who can consider more than numbers).

I like the power ranks by the way it adds a little bit of story to the scene.



Aligulac is a much better ranking of the players than any Power Ranking since Power Rankings are completly subjective while Aligulac is based on well defined math that has been used to rank players in many sports for a very long time.

The only downside is that Koreans and Foreigners do not play each other as often as one would prefer.

At least you can look at Koreans and Foreigners seperatly and use Aligulac to rank them. (Who is the 3rd best Korean, who is the 3rd best Foreigner etc).

So basically, Aligulac, when used correctly, is superior to any subjective ranking.
hexhaven
Profile Joined July 2014
Finland926 Posts
April 05 2018 08:45 GMT
#61
On April 05 2018 17:30 MockHamill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2018 17:10 Corvuuss wrote:
On April 05 2018 00:09 Poopi wrote:
On April 04 2018 23:03 Soularion wrote:
On April 04 2018 20:29 Poopi wrote:
On April 04 2018 19:53 Soularion wrote:
On April 04 2018 19:28 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
The two notable players not mentioned here are ByuN and herO. I rather think that ByuN probably deserves to sneak into the top 16. As for herO his spot in KeSPA jail is well merited after losing to eMotion, but there's some weird stuff going on with his form so who the hell knows.

ByuN has done nothing all year aside from beat Impact a couple times at Super Tournament quals. 0-4 to Trap, 0-2 to Classic, 0-2 to Solar. Completely unnoteworthy player. herO similarly hasn't done much to earn faith, and his complete collapse in GSL quals (not just losing to eMotion, but LosirA and Dear too - the fuck, herO?) kinda booted him off the list.

He qualified for both GSL and GSL ST, and trashed herO / Stats / Creator. That's better than Impact.

So you're basically counting an online series against Stats and arguably herO, and then 2-1 wins vs Hurricane and Impact as him being top 16. Meanwhile Impact got out of IEM Katowice groups, beat Stats online *twice*, beat Dear and Rogue online, and recently beat Solar as well. His online repertoire is better, and while ByuN got the better of him at GSL ST quals, Impact showed up to IEM Katowice and proved he could play at a fairly high level when the stakes are high.

It's very simple, let's do the math.
In 2018 :
Impact went from 2440 aligulac rating to 2442, he gained 2 points.
ByuN went from 2564 aligulac rating to 2588, he gained 24 points.

Not only did ByuN gain more points in 2018 than Impact, he was at an higher rating, so had he performed the same (same win/loss against the same players) as Impact, he would have gained less points than him (probably lost points).




Oh aligulac points a system which means pretty much nothing (like the power ranking but that has a nice read to it and it is made by people who can consider more than numbers).

I like the power ranks by the way it adds a little bit of story to the scene.



Aligulac is a much better ranking of the players than any Power Ranking since Power Rankings are completly subjective while Aligulac is based on well defined math that has been used to rank players in many sports for a very long time.


Aligulac works perfectly, as evidenced by Serral being ranked #1 for a long time and still consistently losing to Koreans who are ranked below him.
WriterI shoot events. | http://www.jussi.co/esports
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12770 Posts
April 05 2018 09:32 GMT
#62
On April 05 2018 17:10 Corvuuss wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2018 00:09 Poopi wrote:
On April 04 2018 23:03 Soularion wrote:
On April 04 2018 20:29 Poopi wrote:
On April 04 2018 19:53 Soularion wrote:
On April 04 2018 19:28 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
The two notable players not mentioned here are ByuN and herO. I rather think that ByuN probably deserves to sneak into the top 16. As for herO his spot in KeSPA jail is well merited after losing to eMotion, but there's some weird stuff going on with his form so who the hell knows.

ByuN has done nothing all year aside from beat Impact a couple times at Super Tournament quals. 0-4 to Trap, 0-2 to Classic, 0-2 to Solar. Completely unnoteworthy player. herO similarly hasn't done much to earn faith, and his complete collapse in GSL quals (not just losing to eMotion, but LosirA and Dear too - the fuck, herO?) kinda booted him off the list.

He qualified for both GSL and GSL ST, and trashed herO / Stats / Creator. That's better than Impact.

So you're basically counting an online series against Stats and arguably herO, and then 2-1 wins vs Hurricane and Impact as him being top 16. Meanwhile Impact got out of IEM Katowice groups, beat Stats online *twice*, beat Dear and Rogue online, and recently beat Solar as well. His online repertoire is better, and while ByuN got the better of him at GSL ST quals, Impact showed up to IEM Katowice and proved he could play at a fairly high level when the stakes are high.

It's very simple, let's do the math.
In 2018 :
Impact went from 2440 aligulac rating to 2442, he gained 2 points.
ByuN went from 2564 aligulac rating to 2588, he gained 24 points.

Not only did ByuN gain more points in 2018 than Impact, he was at an higher rating, so had he performed the same (same win/loss against the same players) as Impact, he would have gained less points than him (probably lost points).




Oh aligulac points a system which means pretty much nothing (like the power ranking but that has a nice read to it and it is made by people who can consider more than numbers).

I like the power ranks by the way it adds a little bit of story to the scene.

Actually it proves (given that one player didn't farm too much low level players compared to the other) that Impact did perform worse objectively.
WriterMaru
Corvuuss
Profile Blog Joined April 2014
Austria354 Posts
April 05 2018 09:59 GMT
#63
On April 05 2018 18:32 Poopi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2018 17:10 Corvuuss wrote:
On April 05 2018 00:09 Poopi wrote:
On April 04 2018 23:03 Soularion wrote:
On April 04 2018 20:29 Poopi wrote:
On April 04 2018 19:53 Soularion wrote:
On April 04 2018 19:28 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
The two notable players not mentioned here are ByuN and herO. I rather think that ByuN probably deserves to sneak into the top 16. As for herO his spot in KeSPA jail is well merited after losing to eMotion, but there's some weird stuff going on with his form so who the hell knows.

ByuN has done nothing all year aside from beat Impact a couple times at Super Tournament quals. 0-4 to Trap, 0-2 to Classic, 0-2 to Solar. Completely unnoteworthy player. herO similarly hasn't done much to earn faith, and his complete collapse in GSL quals (not just losing to eMotion, but LosirA and Dear too - the fuck, herO?) kinda booted him off the list.

He qualified for both GSL and GSL ST, and trashed herO / Stats / Creator. That's better than Impact.

So you're basically counting an online series against Stats and arguably herO, and then 2-1 wins vs Hurricane and Impact as him being top 16. Meanwhile Impact got out of IEM Katowice groups, beat Stats online *twice*, beat Dear and Rogue online, and recently beat Solar as well. His online repertoire is better, and while ByuN got the better of him at GSL ST quals, Impact showed up to IEM Katowice and proved he could play at a fairly high level when the stakes are high.

It's very simple, let's do the math.
In 2018 :
Impact went from 2440 aligulac rating to 2442, he gained 2 points.
ByuN went from 2564 aligulac rating to 2588, he gained 24 points.

Not only did ByuN gain more points in 2018 than Impact, he was at an higher rating, so had he performed the same (same win/loss against the same players) as Impact, he would have gained less points than him (probably lost points).




Oh aligulac points a system which means pretty much nothing (like the power ranking but that has a nice read to it and it is made by people who can consider more than numbers).

I like the power ranks by the way it adds a little bit of story to the scene.

Actually it proves (given that one player didn't farm too much low level players compared to the other) that Impact did perform worse objectively.


It proves the other player won more games but does not factor in circumstances.
I am a slave of Golden from now on. Obey a supreme leader of StarCraft 2 or you get banned. I am really glad to be citizen of Democratic republic of Golden.
D-light
Profile Joined April 2012
Finland7364 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-04-05 11:23:32
April 05 2018 11:21 GMT
#64
On April 05 2018 02:14 Charoisaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2018 00:31 MockHamill wrote:
I agree with Maru as number one but I would put Serral in the top 4.

He is the best foreign Zerg ever in pure skill.

Serral is good but there's no way he's a top 5 player right now.
For that he got beaten too badly by Maru and Classic (in the series that mattered).


I mean sure the WESG series wasn't as big, but it was still a 20k series.

(not saying that I'd put him in the top-5 atm tho)

On April 05 2018 08:16 Jj_82 wrote:
Just for the sake of having some more names here: Serral, Neeb, Special. Best foreigners atm. I do especially miss Juan in the ranking. He seems to play really fantastic lately.

If he would've made GSL and not gone full tilt in his ro16 WESG group I guess one could've argued for Juan.
why even
Jihadi_Chant
Profile Joined February 2018
19 Posts
April 05 2018 19:26 GMT
#65
Maru is my favorite pro gamer. I remember Nerchio said he is overrated after these words Maru put sucha beating on him.
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12770 Posts
April 05 2018 20:25 GMT
#66
To be fair when Nerchio went to KR he admitted Maru had the best micro
WriterMaru
BronzeKnee
Profile Joined March 2011
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-04-06 03:24:48
April 06 2018 03:22 GMT
#67
On April 05 2018 10:39 Vindicare605 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2018 04:34 MockHamill wrote:
On April 05 2018 03:34 Durnuu wrote:
On April 05 2018 03:33 MockHamill wrote:
Serral all-killed Korea. His aligulac ranking is the highest in the world.

Except for Maru I do not see any Korean that is clearly better. He is on the same level as Dark and Classic.

Serral didn't all-kill Korea. Unless Poland = Korea in your mind.


I provided some alternative facts. Still, Koreans are overrated. The gap used to be huge but it is not any more.

Top Koreans are just slightly better than top foreigners now and I think Serral will pass every Korean (with the possible exception of Maru) within a year.


There is literally zero evidence to suggest that the gap is narrower than it has been in the past.

During Stephano's era, Stephano was frequently either winning or going to finals in global events against code S quality Koreans.

Serral as good as he is, the best he has managed is top 4 in global events.

He's good, but the Koreans are better. The gap hasn't gone anywhere. The skill level of foreign players has definitely improved over the years but the Koreans have gotten better too.

There is zero evidence to suggest that the gap is narrowed. Literally none. You can't just argue that point and have no results to back it up.


There is significant evidence... Proleague is gone, many big Korean teams went under, and we have a region lock. Without that support system in Korea and a region lock allowing foreigners to develop, foreigners can and will catch up.

Stephano is the greatest foreigner of all time by a long shot. His achievements dwarf any other foreigner. He was the one foreigner who played in SC2 Proleague and had a winning record.

The narrowing of the gap makes his achievements even more impressive.
atchosvk
Profile Joined April 2018
55 Posts
April 06 2018 07:46 GMT
#68
I think there must be a mistake here, I do not see Avilo in the power rank. Can you explain why ? I think he deserves a spot there. Kappa.

User was warned for this post
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-04-06 11:28:11
April 06 2018 11:27 GMT
#69
So......is Rogue a patchzerg again now?
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
Durnuu
Profile Joined September 2013
13319 Posts
April 06 2018 11:38 GMT
#70
On April 06 2018 20:27 pvsnp wrote:
So......is Rogue a patchzerg again now?

Pretty sure he never stopped being one
BUNNYYYYYYYYY https://i.imgur.com/BiCF577.png
Lorning *
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Belgica34432 Posts
April 06 2018 21:20 GMT
#71
Wow, writers actually having brains. Jee, a miracle happened.

Maru #1

User was warned for this post
Community News
TL+ Member
yangluphil
Profile Joined July 2015
318 Posts
April 07 2018 05:47 GMT
#72
Now that Rogue is seeded into Blizzcon, GSL super tournament really does not offer him much. It's understandable that he isn't motivated to get in form right now.
Neither party will be missed.
IshinShishi
Profile Joined April 2012
Japan6156 Posts
April 07 2018 07:16 GMT
#73
On April 06 2018 12:22 BronzeKnee wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2018 10:39 Vindicare605 wrote:
On April 05 2018 04:34 MockHamill wrote:
On April 05 2018 03:34 Durnuu wrote:
On April 05 2018 03:33 MockHamill wrote:
Serral all-killed Korea. His aligulac ranking is the highest in the world.

Except for Maru I do not see any Korean that is clearly better. He is on the same level as Dark and Classic.

Serral didn't all-kill Korea. Unless Poland = Korea in your mind.


I provided some alternative facts. Still, Koreans are overrated. The gap used to be huge but it is not any more.

Top Koreans are just slightly better than top foreigners now and I think Serral will pass every Korean (with the possible exception of Maru) within a year.


There is literally zero evidence to suggest that the gap is narrower than it has been in the past.

During Stephano's era, Stephano was frequently either winning or going to finals in global events against code S quality Koreans.

Serral as good as he is, the best he has managed is top 4 in global events.

He's good, but the Koreans are better. The gap hasn't gone anywhere. The skill level of foreign players has definitely improved over the years but the Koreans have gotten better too.

There is zero evidence to suggest that the gap is narrowed. Literally none. You can't just argue that point and have no results to back it up.


There is significant evidence... Proleague is gone, many big Korean teams went under, and we have a region lock. Without that support system in Korea and a region lock allowing foreigners to develop, foreigners can and will catch up.

Stephano is the greatest foreigner of all time by a long shot. His achievements dwarf any other foreigner. He was the one foreigner who played in SC2 Proleague and had a winning record.

The narrowing of the gap makes his achievements even more impressive.


Looking at results alone, Neeb seems to be the greatest foreigner of all time.
So... what that make you? Good? You're not good. You just know how to hide, how to lie
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15899 Posts
April 07 2018 07:46 GMT
#74
On April 07 2018 16:16 IshinShishi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 06 2018 12:22 BronzeKnee wrote:
On April 05 2018 10:39 Vindicare605 wrote:
On April 05 2018 04:34 MockHamill wrote:
On April 05 2018 03:34 Durnuu wrote:
On April 05 2018 03:33 MockHamill wrote:
Serral all-killed Korea. His aligulac ranking is the highest in the world.

Except for Maru I do not see any Korean that is clearly better. He is on the same level as Dark and Classic.

Serral didn't all-kill Korea. Unless Poland = Korea in your mind.


I provided some alternative facts. Still, Koreans are overrated. The gap used to be huge but it is not any more.

Top Koreans are just slightly better than top foreigners now and I think Serral will pass every Korean (with the possible exception of Maru) within a year.


There is literally zero evidence to suggest that the gap is narrower than it has been in the past.

During Stephano's era, Stephano was frequently either winning or going to finals in global events against code S quality Koreans.

Serral as good as he is, the best he has managed is top 4 in global events.

He's good, but the Koreans are better. The gap hasn't gone anywhere. The skill level of foreign players has definitely improved over the years but the Koreans have gotten better too.

There is zero evidence to suggest that the gap is narrowed. Literally none. You can't just argue that point and have no results to back it up.


There is significant evidence... Proleague is gone, many big Korean teams went under, and we have a region lock. Without that support system in Korea and a region lock allowing foreigners to develop, foreigners can and will catch up.

Stephano is the greatest foreigner of all time by a long shot. His achievements dwarf any other foreigner. He was the one foreigner who played in SC2 Proleague and had a winning record.

The narrowing of the gap makes his achievements even more impressive.


Looking at results alone, Neeb seems to be the greatest foreigner of all time.

That must be some weird results you're looking at
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Waxangel
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States33277 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-04-07 08:00:08
April 07 2018 07:57 GMT
#75
On April 06 2018 12:22 BronzeKnee wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2018 10:39 Vindicare605 wrote:
On April 05 2018 04:34 MockHamill wrote:
On April 05 2018 03:34 Durnuu wrote:
On April 05 2018 03:33 MockHamill wrote:
Serral all-killed Korea. His aligulac ranking is the highest in the world.

Except for Maru I do not see any Korean that is clearly better. He is on the same level as Dark and Classic.

Serral didn't all-kill Korea. Unless Poland = Korea in your mind.


I provided some alternative facts. Still, Koreans are overrated. The gap used to be huge but it is not any more.

Top Koreans are just slightly better than top foreigners now and I think Serral will pass every Korean (with the possible exception of Maru) within a year.


There is literally zero evidence to suggest that the gap is narrower than it has been in the past.

During Stephano's era, Stephano was frequently either winning or going to finals in global events against code S quality Koreans.

Serral as good as he is, the best he has managed is top 4 in global events.

He's good, but the Koreans are better. The gap hasn't gone anywhere. The skill level of foreign players has definitely improved over the years but the Koreans have gotten better too.

Ah fuck I just realized all I'm doing is mincing words and arguing semantics—nm.

There is zero evidence to suggest that the gap is narrowed. Literally none. You can't just argue that point and have no results to back it up.


There is significant evidence... Proleague is gone, many big Korean teams went under, and we have a region lock. Without that support system in Korea and a region lock allowing foreigners to develop, foreigners can and will catch up.

Stephano is the greatest foreigner of all time by a long shot. His achievements dwarf any other foreigner. He was the one foreigner who played in SC2 Proleague and had a winning record.

The narrowing of the gap makes his achievements even more impressive.


None of that is REAL hard evidence though. That's not to say I find your deductions unreasonable—I actually agree with you in some regards. I just take issue with calling that kind of stuff "evidence" as if it's actually factually conclusive.

fuck I just realized all I'm doing is mincing words and arguing semantics. nm
AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?
DIngoDog
Profile Joined June 2017
11 Posts
April 08 2018 15:02 GMT
#76
Lol, you didn't have Rogue on the power ranking for Katowice? Wowwww...that's the definition of an objective failure. Your power ranks are usually trash though. And as I've always felt, now vindicated, Innovation undeservedly lived in your P.R. top 3-5 without sufficient results - at least you finally booted him down. I feel like the power ranks are fun, but they are always a little behind and a lot biased.

User was warned for this post
BronzeKnee
Profile Joined March 2011
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-04-09 01:56:29
April 09 2018 01:22 GMT
#77
On April 07 2018 16:46 Charoisaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 07 2018 16:16 IshinShishi wrote:
On April 06 2018 12:22 BronzeKnee wrote:
On April 05 2018 10:39 Vindicare605 wrote:
On April 05 2018 04:34 MockHamill wrote:
On April 05 2018 03:34 Durnuu wrote:
On April 05 2018 03:33 MockHamill wrote:
Serral all-killed Korea. His aligulac ranking is the highest in the world.

Except for Maru I do not see any Korean that is clearly better. He is on the same level as Dark and Classic.

Serral didn't all-kill Korea. Unless Poland = Korea in your mind.


I provided some alternative facts. Still, Koreans are overrated. The gap used to be huge but it is not any more.

Top Koreans are just slightly better than top foreigners now and I think Serral will pass every Korean (with the possible exception of Maru) within a year.


There is literally zero evidence to suggest that the gap is narrower than it has been in the past.

During Stephano's era, Stephano was frequently either winning or going to finals in global events against code S quality Koreans.

Serral as good as he is, the best he has managed is top 4 in global events.

He's good, but the Koreans are better. The gap hasn't gone anywhere. The skill level of foreign players has definitely improved over the years but the Koreans have gotten better too.

There is zero evidence to suggest that the gap is narrowed. Literally none. You can't just argue that point and have no results to back it up.


There is significant evidence... Proleague is gone, many big Korean teams went under, and we have a region lock. Without that support system in Korea and a region lock allowing foreigners to develop, foreigners can and will catch up.

Stephano is the greatest foreigner of all time by a long shot. His achievements dwarf any other foreigner. He was the one foreigner who played in SC2 Proleague and had a winning record.

The narrowing of the gap makes his achievements even more impressive.


Looking at results alone, Neeb seems to be the greatest foreigner of all time.

That must be some weird results you're looking at


I don't know why it bothers me so much, but I hate when people think the GOAT is someone who is good currently and they spend time crapping over the greats of the past. It happens in all sports, but it's particularly bad in individual sports like Boxing, MMA and SC2.

A cursory internet search on Liquipedia would show that Stephano is so far ahead of any foreigner in terms of results, it is like comparing Michael Jordan to Kevin Durant and claiming Durant is the GOAT.

Let me take everyone down memory lane regarding Stephano real quick... IGN ProLeague Season 3... who is this Stephano guy I am watching? He wasn't invited to the event, had to go through via a qualifier and I don't think anyone thought he would win. This tournament was full of Koreans, and not just a couple of washed up Koreans, these are Code S Koreans.

He beats KiWiKaKi before facing the onslaught beginning with a 2-0 over Code S Zerg Violet. Then he faces inori, sounds like a no-name Korean, but inori had beaten Huk and MC to reach Stephano, he is a Code S Protoss. Stephano beats him 2-1. Then he faces Korean Terran TheStC and downs him 2-1. Finally he faces Lucky, a Code S Zerg in the finals, who had beaten MMA, Ryung and Boxer to get there.... and Stephano beats him 4-0.

And that was just the start. Stephano wasn't just taking series off random Koreans or going even with them, he was lining them up and destroying them. He beat MarineKingPrime two weeks later in the semi-finals of ESWC 2011 before winning the whole thing. He beat Bomber and Polt (among other Koreans) at Lone Star Clash 1 & 2 to win those events. He won his first two matches in Proleague...

No one has come anywhere close to Stephano. Yeah, I know Neeb did it once at the KeSPA Cup, but Stephano did it multiple times. He was the only foreigner who we could say was the favorite to win any tournament at that time that had multiple Code S Koreans in it. He was better than all but three to five Korean players at a time when a foreigner beating any GSL Korean was huge deal.
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