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On March 07 2018 17:53 hiroshOne wrote:
Solar was trying to micro out from anti armour missiles and failed. Its not possible to outmicro AAM. Its faster than old seeker missile.
Yes. Dorperlords were the only agressive option for Zerg that is not an allin. Those roach pushes or baneling bust, were allins. With droperlord u could still follow up into mavro game.
Let's be real. 90% of the time people went for drop overlords early on it was just an all-in. Sure you could go for harass, but you were most of the time better off all-inning.
On March 07 2018 15:41 SCMasterGoD wrote:
I don't understand why late game Terran is considered bad. I'm a low GM toss and I ALWAYS lose late game Pvt. I just feel like I can't do anything vs Viking ghost, emp rips my ground and Viking my colossus. The end.
If I get tempest to chip away the terran army he just a moves into me. I just don't understand it. In pro games this is never the case because the game ends much earlier.
Also seeing in pro games zvt ghost snipes are amazing late game, maybe too hard to pull off due to fungal broods? Possibly increase its range
Ghost/viking beating protoss late game armies? Are you still playing HotS?
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We lived 7 years of vikings vs colossus. Now vikings live more thanks to the stalker attack cooldown nerf and want to buff them more ? Mass viking no medevac 1-a gg wp
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On March 07 2018 17:53 hiroshOne wrote:
Solar was trying to micro out from anti armour missiles and failed. Its not possible to outmicro AAM. Its faster than old seeker missile.
Yes. Dorperlords were the only agressive option for Zerg that is not an allin. Those roach pushes or baneling bust, were allins. With droperlord u could still follow up into mavro game.
This was quite new, of course he can't still micro properly.
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On March 07 2018 15:33 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2018 15:21 neutralrobot wrote:On March 07 2018 15:13 BronzeKnee wrote:On March 07 2018 14:58 MockHamill wrote:
I do not even know what to say.
Terran finally had an answer to clumped up Carriers with HT support. And you instantly nerf it.
10 more hit points on Vikings does absolut nothing in comparison. Vikings can still not be used against Carrier/HT due to storm plus no native amour so no protection against interceptors.
I could understand the move if Terran was dominating all tournaments. But every finale is a PvZ and there were only 2 Terrans in the top 12 in Katowice.
Terran is not overperforming so why nerf their only answer to the golden armada? I need every Terran to remember when PvT was at 50%, and then Blizzard nerfed the Adept. Or when PvT was at 50% and Khaydarin Amulet was removed. Is PvT now at 50%? If I read it right, people are arguing that there's already an imbalance, that the imbalance has just barely started to be figured out, and the way it's been figured out is being nerfed. In other words, the existing imbalance is being made worse. For my part, I have no idea. Obviously at the highest levels, terran has been doing badly lately overall. I don't know how well it generalises across skill levels. The idea of every late game turning into the same comp with the same ideas sounds like something worth avoiding, but obviously it's not worth avoiding if late game becomes severely imbalanced. While PvT win-rates are at 50% approximately on aligulac terrans are still forced into a lot of all-ins to get that win rate (and ofc aligulac has lots of weaknesses). Playing macro Terran against Protoss right now is difficult, because chrono-ed Protoss upgrades outscale terran units really fast, and (to a lesser extent) due to the new colossus absolutely evaporating marines. I'd like to see a few nerfs targeting those two points. Redistributing the colossus's damage to do less versus light would be rather easy since colossi aren't particularly good in PvZ anyways. Nerfing Protoss upgrades is trickier since it also impacts PvZ, but I think increasing the build time for +2 and +3 might be necessary. The golden armada is tbh a rather minor issue when it comes to PvT.
At a glance, it seems like Aligulac suggests that PvT win rates are at 50% or so now after a recent drop from P dominance. Do we think this is because of a meta shift toward ravens? Again, honest question. I don't know what to make of it.
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Finally ! Droperlords are a nightmare as Protoss if your build / wall / execution isn't perfect.
The anti armor missile nerf is good aswell, it is named "ANTI-ARMOR" after all.
It isn't supposed to do direct damage but make damage by immensely increasing the dps of an upgraded bioball during the late game, allowing the terran to stay on MMM and do well against its biggest threats like Ultralisks.
Nice buff to the viking, a unit way too fragile for its cost.
I also see some posts asking for nerfs to the colossus in PvT following this patch...
And I wonder if these people seriously play this game / watch the pros. Most Protoss have stopped rushing colossus in PvT and don't use them until late (where they're not that amazing) because the terran has a huge window where a bio push with the support of 1 SINGLE raven will absolutely destroy the Protoss army if you just use interference matrix on the colossus (50 energy each, you easily have 2 available when the push hits, and if the Protoss went colossus he clearly doesnt have HT to feedback the raven).
Nice job Blizzard on this one, even though I still think hydras and / or lurkers have to be addressed in some way.
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Cool changes, opens up PvZ quite a lot!
On March 07 2018 15:41 SCMasterGoD wrote:
I don't understand why late game Terran is considered bad. I'm a low GM toss and I ALWAYS lose late game Pvt. I just feel like I can't do anything vs Viking ghost, emp rips my ground and Viking my colossus. The end.
If I get tempest to chip away the terran army he just a moves into me. I just don't understand it. In pro games this is never the case because the game ends much earlier.
Also seeing in pro games zvt ghost snipes are amazing late game, maybe too hard to pull off due to fungal broods? Possibly increase its range
Many terrans just play their standard "2base push until either the protoss dies or they're way too far behind"-strat and then they blame imbalance when they're outteched. A good late game T is really scary.
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On March 07 2018 19:16 neutralrobot wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2018 15:33 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 07 2018 15:21 neutralrobot wrote:On March 07 2018 15:13 BronzeKnee wrote:On March 07 2018 14:58 MockHamill wrote:
I do not even know what to say.
Terran finally had an answer to clumped up Carriers with HT support. And you instantly nerf it.
10 more hit points on Vikings does absolut nothing in comparison. Vikings can still not be used against Carrier/HT due to storm plus no native amour so no protection against interceptors.
I could understand the move if Terran was dominating all tournaments. But every finale is a PvZ and there were only 2 Terrans in the top 12 in Katowice.
Terran is not overperforming so why nerf their only answer to the golden armada? I need every Terran to remember when PvT was at 50%, and then Blizzard nerfed the Adept. Or when PvT was at 50% and Khaydarin Amulet was removed. Is PvT now at 50%? If I read it right, people are arguing that there's already an imbalance, that the imbalance has just barely started to be figured out, and the way it's been figured out is being nerfed. In other words, the existing imbalance is being made worse. For my part, I have no idea. Obviously at the highest levels, terran has been doing badly lately overall. I don't know how well it generalises across skill levels. The idea of every late game turning into the same comp with the same ideas sounds like something worth avoiding, but obviously it's not worth avoiding if late game becomes severely imbalanced. While PvT win-rates are at 50% approximately on aligulac terrans are still forced into a lot of all-ins to get that win rate (and ofc aligulac has lots of weaknesses). Playing macro Terran against Protoss right now is difficult, because chrono-ed Protoss upgrades outscale terran units really fast, and (to a lesser extent) due to the new colossus absolutely evaporating marines. I'd like to see a few nerfs targeting those two points. Redistributing the colossus's damage to do less versus light would be rather easy since colossi aren't particularly good in PvZ anyways. Nerfing Protoss upgrades is trickier since it also impacts PvZ, but I think increasing the build time for +2 and +3 might be necessary. The golden armada is tbh a rather minor issue when it comes to PvT. At a glance, it seems like Aligulac suggests that PvT win rates are at 50% or so now after a recent drop from P dominance. Do we think this is because of a meta shift toward ravens? Again, honest question. I don't know what to make of it.
Not enough raven games at all vs protoss at pro level. that's why this subject and nerf-hammer is kinda ironic.
Aligulac stats doesn't means a lot about balance. We already discussed this topic in length, but in short this is this way of seeing this that led to unerfed bl/infestor for a year.... stats were fine, blizzard said (and they were)...
Recent shit is probably because some top korean terrans wining foreigners (at IEM) and second class players (in online cups etc). Doesn't means anything.
From aligulac stats, individual MU results of top players means more. Best KR protoss near 80% PvT, while the best terrans are at 60% TvP.
Terran issues in TvP when not 2-base all-ining is first and foremost the openings. Terran begins the race so much behind, Protoss can pay whatever tech-advantage they want (like 2xupgrades and fast 4th and stomr or collosi..) while still having a better army and eco.
If Protoss would not start the game so much ahead 2xforge wouldn't be such an issue because, like in PvZ, they you would not afford it without sacrificing a lot of other things.
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The Raven change makes a lot of sense but there is no way the health buff to vikings balances things out. Terrans briefly had late game but it's gone again.
I agree that a BC buff is the way forward.
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On March 07 2018 19:40 Daimai wrote:Cool changes, opens up PvZ quite a lot! Show nested quote +On March 07 2018 15:41 SCMasterGoD wrote:
I don't understand why late game Terran is considered bad. I'm a low GM toss and I ALWAYS lose late game Pvt. I just feel like I can't do anything vs Viking ghost, emp rips my ground and Viking my colossus. The end.
If I get tempest to chip away the terran army he just a moves into me. I just don't understand it. In pro games this is never the case because the game ends much earlier.
Also seeing in pro games zvt ghost snipes are amazing late game, maybe too hard to pull off due to fungal broods? Possibly increase its range Many terrans just play their standard "2base push until either the protoss dies or they're way too far behind"-strat and then they blame imbalance when they're outteched. A good late game T is really scary.
And why do you think every Terran, even those who played macro for years in the MU, play that ? We are in the situation of "killing the zerg before infestor/bl or die". This may be balanced or not stats-wise but everyone forced into this is trash gameplay.
Late game T may or may not be scary if properly executed. But (except some maps, like neon violet) terran is not allowed to go late game vs Toss, they simply die way earlier. (like, when protoss hits 3/3 and a-move + warp-prism storm to LOL ).
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WOW. I think i suggested moving overlord drop to lair tech like 2-3 years ago. Glad Blizzard are listening to the community. Also 10 hp buff to Vikings? if they had made it 100 hp then maybe it would change terrans chances vs air play.
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It seems the "balance team" just don't know what to do with the raven. It's undergone so many changes since the major shift last year. They seem to have tunnel vision when it comes to creating an effective late game option without aggravating the community.
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On March 07 2018 20:02 xongnox wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2018 19:40 Daimai wrote:Cool changes, opens up PvZ quite a lot! On March 07 2018 15:41 SCMasterGoD wrote:
I don't understand why late game Terran is considered bad. I'm a low GM toss and I ALWAYS lose late game Pvt. I just feel like I can't do anything vs Viking ghost, emp rips my ground and Viking my colossus. The end.
If I get tempest to chip away the terran army he just a moves into me. I just don't understand it. In pro games this is never the case because the game ends much earlier.
Also seeing in pro games zvt ghost snipes are amazing late game, maybe too hard to pull off due to fungal broods? Possibly increase its range Many terrans just play their standard "2base push until either the protoss dies or they're way too far behind"-strat and then they blame imbalance when they're outteched. A good late game T is really scary. And why do you think every Terran, even those who played macro for years in the MU, play that ? We are in the situation of "killing the zerg before infestor/bl or die". This may be balanced or not stats-wise but everyone forced into this is trash gameplay. Late game T may or may not be scary if properly executed. But (except some maps, like agora) terran is not allowed to go late game vs Toss, they simply die way earlier. (like, when protoss hits 3/3 and a-move + warp-prism storm to LOL ).
Yes the fact that toss can outmacro and outupgrade the terran earlier in the game would be an issue, but late game TvP is not bad at all, terran has all the tools to beat protoss.
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On March 07 2018 10:01 brickrd wrote:
the problem with ling drops is more than just holding them but, as others have said, that it forces out early defense in the main mineral line as well as stargate units to shut down drop ovies.
i have been a Z/P player for years, and i love the new dropperlords, but speaking objectively as someone who plays both matchups there's too much flexibility in how zerg can play out the game. holding the allins is entirely possible, but there's zero margin for error in any detail of your build, your wall and your micro, it's a highly practiced and unforgiving early game interaction that makes the game less fun in PVZ.
i would compare it to when PVZ cannon rushing was extremely safe and extremely frustrating to play against back in HOTS. it's not really that PVZ is imba because of unit interactions (once you get to midgame protoss is fine), but it feels extremely stunted and scripted from the protoss point of view. there's almost no way to mix it up early as toss without dying to a lot of popular high-percentage allins.
i don't feel like it's fair for protoss to be punished for greedy walling the natural when they HAVE TO wall the natural to play a macro game. there's no "safer option" for protoss builds, if you don't gate expand you're fucked. with the mineral growth rate of LOTV you can't even do one base tech builds anymore because the pylon timings aren't right
This post really nicely sumarizes the problems with hatch droperlords.
I'd just add that there is a reason that Protoss has to wall-off against zerg since sc1 - the larva mechanic + fast massable zergling makes that it is really hard to defend against early ling rushes/all-ins. Drop available for zerg so fast allows to bypass the wall and invalid its' purpose.
The stategy is not undefendable but it limits the protoss strategies and pigeon-hole protoss play to one build/set of reactions and on top of that requires perfect execution to hold as any mistep with rewalling is game ending even in lower leagues.
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Ok, blizzard.
I fully support the direction of the changes, but seriously, please consider removing nydus from the game. Lets be honest here: NOONE EVER uses it outside of allins. Its a goddamn forgotten mechanic so that nobody even remembers why it was added to the game (some BW reference i assume). There is no way (literally no way) of scouting it in PvZ. You just cant see it coming, but defending it is such a pain in the ass, you literally need to prepare accrodingly for 2+ minutes.
Zerg is out of hand these days,its obvious for everyone.
In the early game Zerg has:
Speedling floods
Speedling drops (and btw if they hit the right timing SG alone wont keep you safe, you simply wont be able to shoot down dropalords fast enough).
Baneling busts/drops
Ravager/roach timings
Nydus
Queen drops
All these strats needs an apropriate response. You should know exactly what you are doing and how to react. Its much more complicated and punishing than a common: "just go SG and you are safe". Tell that sOs and Classic.
while Protoss has nothing, literally no early game cheeses. Just a 5 min zealot allin that is easily scouted. It's so easy to defend i wont even bother mentioning it.
Then, transitioning into mid game, zerg again can throw in ANY units: mutas, hydra/banes, hydra/roaches into lurkers, all kind of 3rd pushes (with extremely strong timings) with mass banes/mass lurkers etc etc. While protoss... ok we got an option either we go 1 robo or 2 robo... nice.
After deflecting of whatever is coming from zerg in mid game (or may be they just macroed like crazy) we need to start worring about BLs. Should i hit him now with what i got or begin transitioning to tempest/carriers, mmm such an interesting choice.
And then, we got lategame. Ye, those carrier haters are all over the place. But where did the come from? early 2017 when intereceptors were free? These days, it SUPER hard to make a decent lategame comp for protoss. And by decent i mean Carrier based (12+). Any other Tempest/VR BS comps just dont work vs corruptors/mass spores/vipers/etc. Zerg lategame comp is much more flexible and stronger if you ask me. Just look at Classic vs Rogue on neon. What was classic doing wrong? Point it out please because i cant see a single flaw in his game.
Ok, to summ it up. I really dont mind a challenging MU, but zerg has WAY too many options on every stage of the game.
Removing nydus, moving drops to lair, and toning down lurker just a bit (reducing its range by 1 lets say) wont hurt the game at all.
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The Viking hitpoint increase is no where near enough to make it possible for Terran to fight against the Carrier/HT combo.
I suggest either
1) Decrease the leach range of Carriers to 10 so that Terran does not have to fly through so many storm just to get to the Carriers OR
2) Make Viking have 1 native armor. It would not change much against most air units but it would be very useful against Carriers, a unit that Vikings are supposed to counter but can not.
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On March 07 2018 20:33 MockHamill wrote:
The Viking hitpoint increase is no where near enough to make it possible for Terran to fight against the Carrier/HT combo.
I suggest either
1) Decrease the leach range of Carriers to 10 so that Terran does not have to fly through so many storm just to get to the Carriers OR
2) Make Viking have 1 native armor. It would not change much against most air units but it would be very useful against Carriers, a unit that Vikings are supposed to counter but can not.
Is it really a thing: carrier based tvp? no sarcasm, just wondering.
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On March 07 2018 20:37 insitelol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2018 20:33 MockHamill wrote:
The Viking hitpoint increase is no where near enough to make it possible for Terran to fight against the Carrier/HT combo.
I suggest either
1) Decrease the leach range of Carriers to 10 so that Terran does not have to fly through so many storm just to get to the Carriers OR
2) Make Viking have 1 native armor. It would not change much against most air units but it would be very useful against Carriers, a unit that Vikings are supposed to counter but can not. Is it really a thing: carrier based tvp? no sarcasm, just wondering.
Yes. I think almost every Protoss I play (if the game goes to late game) transitions to Carrier/HT (plus support). It seems to be the go-to combo for late game Protoss.
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On March 07 2018 20:27 insitelol wrote:
(...) please consider removing nydus from the game (...)
I think that nydus could be simply reworked to be less of all-in tool and more for fast transfering the armies.
I'd propose:
Reduce health from 200 to 100
Allow to be attacked when underground but up armour from 1 to 3 or 4 when underground so simple worker pull will not kill it but the actual fighting units could snipe it (armour will remain 1 once the nydus emerges from the ground)
reduce the cost from 100/100 to 50/50
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Why not adding a anti air special weapon for BC? the same DPS that main weapon but with a little more range, less rate of fire (and more power by shoot) and a special ability that ignore every armor upgrade (so it ignore every point of armor that the corruptor have, but it also ignore the effect of the raven AA missile, so it can't snowball it).
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On March 07 2018 20:52 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2018 20:37 insitelol wrote:On March 07 2018 20:33 MockHamill wrote:
The Viking hitpoint increase is no where near enough to make it possible for Terran to fight against the Carrier/HT combo.
I suggest either
1) Decrease the leach range of Carriers to 10 so that Terran does not have to fly through so many storm just to get to the Carriers OR
2) Make Viking have 1 native armor. It would not change much against most air units but it would be very useful against Carriers, a unit that Vikings are supposed to counter but can not. Is it really a thing: carrier based tvp? no sarcasm, just wondering. Yes. I think almost every Protoss I play (if the game goes to late game) transitions to Carrier/HT (plus support).
I can only speak for myself but I usually only do it vs mech comps from Terrans. 2nd robo for immortals -> storm + fast switch to carriers.
Sometimes I do go for Carrier/HT vs bio when the opponent decides to turtle heavily after unsuccessful midgame but one may argue that at this it is already over.
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EPT
