WCSThe benchmark for Terran performance at the highest level is how well Maru is doing vs how well Inno is doing.
Inno doing well, Maru not = Terran is strong
Maru doing well, Inno not = Terran is shit
Community Feedback Update - March 6 - Page 13
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pvsnp
6639 Posts
The benchmark for Terran performance at the highest level is how well Maru is doing vs how well Inno is doing. Inno doing well, Maru not = Terran is strong Maru doing well, Inno not = Terran is shit | ||
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xelnaga_empire
378 Posts
On March 10 2018 01:50 Fango wrote: You're the one using a small sample size there bud. WCS leipzig had 1 terran in the ro8, GSL 1 terran in ro8, IEM had 2 in the ro12 etc. It's been over 6 months since a terran was even in a final. They've done badly in every tournament since 4.0. Yep. Terran has been struggling for some time. I hope Blizzard fixes it. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq13741 Posts
On March 10 2018 07:30 KR_4EVR wrote: I have a simple, elegant solution to terran's lack of Area-of-Effect anti-air which would actually work: First, give medivacs the ability to pick up seiged tanks. Second, let the tanks fire similarly air-2-air when inside medivac (like shrapnel cloud) Now I kinda want to know what kind of solution would be awful enough for you to consider it inelegant. | ||
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Ej_
44730 Posts
On March 10 2018 15:58 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Now I kinda want to know what kind of solution would be awful enough for you to consider it inelegant. If corruptors had burrow to shoot ground to ground. | ||
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ihatevideogames
302 Posts
On March 10 2018 16:11 Ej_ wrote: If corruptors had burrow to shoot ground to ground. Better yet, give Brood Lords burrow and make them shoot air while burrowed. | ||
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Xamo
Spain471 Posts
The AAM damage is clearly OP as there is no counterplay, and it does not fit in the design of the raven as a support unit. The armour-nerf part of this spell synergizes so well with bio that, when Terrans learn to use it, is going to change winning rates by itself (see sOs vs Maru at IEM). Not so sure about the Viking HP buff... clearly T needs late-game buffs in TvP, but Blizzard should explore other alternatives. Moving Z drops to Lair is the right move for ZvP. Lings are simply too good that early in the game, and the all-in almost unscoutable without a Stargate. Again, there is no counterplay: P has to open Stargate to prevent it, and even this way they often fail to. | ||
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Tyrhanius
France863 Posts
On March 10 2018 07:47 Loccstana wrote: usually, it'more : Terran turtle with PF/lib/tank/WM to get air deathball rather than the other camping (at least in ZvT) The Raven splash damage is required to punish players that like to mass air based deathballs. In fact they should increase the Raven damage even more, not decrease it. | ||
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Geo.Rion
6181 Posts
On March 10 2018 01:11 Morbidius wrote: Ah yes, 2011 balance. The most relevant statistic for LoTV balance discussion. I think you totally missed the point. Now Terrans are saying looking at GSL top8 race distribution/race of the eventual champions is the most relevant stat ever, while when they dominated for years and argued it s just a difference in skill between the players, and the natural state of things, nothing to fix. Damn, you can see in this very thread some terrans claiming back in the day T dominated cuz of skill. It actually makes me sick. + Show Spoiler + (Looking back at 2011 mappool -let alone balance- it is actually insane terrans lost maps at all. Like Shakuras plateau was hailed as a zerg map, because the other player s main was more than 10 sec walking distance away. Imagine if the map was included in the current pool, which zerg would leave it unbanned?) | ||
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Tyrhanius
France863 Posts
On March 10 2018 15:57 pvsnp wrote: I said this in the LR thread and somebody gave me TL+ for it, so I assume it's insightful: The benchmark for Terran performance at the highest level is how well Maru is doing vs how well Inno is doing. Inno doing well, Maru not = Terran is strong Maru doing well, Inno not = Terran is shit It's more : all data that don't support Terran whine should be ignored or present in a fancy way in order it still means "Terran weak buff Terran" | ||
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xongnox
504 Posts
On March 10 2018 19:55 Geo.Rion wrote: (Looking back at 2011 mappool -let alone balance- it is actually insane terrans lost maps at all. Like Shakuras plateau was hailed as a zerg map, because the other player s main was more than 10 sec walking distance away. Imagine if the map was included in the current pool, which zerg would leave it unbanned?) First, Terrans do not have "dominated for years". Stop making fake news and check facts, like korean premiers tournaments wins per race (hint: pretty balanced). They did have periods of domination, like other races. (remember BL/infestor ? Blink aera ? GomPvP ? ) Second, short maps and early WOL balance wasn't incredibly terran-favored if you account for all people playstyles. Like, 4 gate was broken as hell during a certain amount of time, templar annulet was super strong, early bane burst won tournament (remember fruitdealer ?), even only making DT pushed InCa in GSL finale, etc. Rushs was super strong, but it's not only a Terran thing at all. MC made a fucking lot of money all-inning nearly every game during that time. In foreign-land non-terrans won a lot during 2011, the GomTvT aera. And yes, Early WOL good KR protoss ? MC and that's all. We can compare it to MVP. Then, comparing the skill of MKP, Polt and, MMA to Tassadar Creator Inca Huk etc is like comparing Serral with Heromarine and Khelazur, or Neeb to uthermal, no offense, but that's simply not the same level. It's so obvious i don't understand people still arguing over it. | ||
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KR_4EVR
316 Posts
First, look at some stats: Fungal Growth Energy 75 Range: 10 Duration: 3 s Radius: 2.25 Hotkey: F Target units take 30 damage over 3 seconds and have movement speed reduced by 75%. Reveals cloaked and burrowed units. Psionic Storm Energy 75 Range: 9 Cooldown: 1.43 s Duration: 2.85 s Radius: 1.5 Hotkey: T Creates a storm of psionic energy that lasts 2.85 seconds, causing up to 80 damage to all units in the target area. Concussive Shells Duration: 1.07 s Slows an enemy's movement speed by 50% when hit. The slowing effect does not stack, but the timer is refreshed by subsequent hits. I suggest that raven get a range 9-10 castable instant ability that costs 75 energy and could be called concussion matrix that slows units in a 1.5 to 2.25 radius, duration 1-3 seconds, applies to ALL units hit, functions just like concussive shells otherwise, and by itself does zero damage. Would slow movement and attack speed. Edit: Other possible names: Higgs matrix, sonic blast, shellshock (no disrespect to the TL member of that name). Edit 2: Could be accompanied animation similar to AAM/seekermissile, as that is what it's meant to replace. | ||
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Geo.Rion
6181 Posts
On March 11 2018 00:24 KR_4EVR wrote: I've posted quite a few solutions on various related threads, ranging from the bizarre (shooting tankivac) to the reasonable (viking acceleration buff and a2a attack buff for better kiting). However, I have thought of another one: First, look at some stats: Fungal Growth Energy 75 Range: 10 Duration: 3 s Radius: 2.25 Hotkey: F Target units take 30 damage over 3 seconds and have movement speed reduced by 75%. Reveals cloaked and burrowed units. Psionic Storm Energy 75 Range: 9 Cooldown: 1.43 s Duration: 2.85 s Radius: 1.5 Hotkey: T Creates a storm of psionic energy that lasts 2.85 seconds, causing up to 80 damage to all units in the target area. Concussive Shells Duration: 1.07 s Slows an enemy's movement speed by 50% when hit. The slowing effect does not stack, but the timer is refreshed by subsequent hits. I suggest that raven get a range 9-10 castable instant ability that costs 75 energy and could be called concussion matrix that slows units in a 1.5 to 2.25 radius, duration 1-3 seconds, applies to ALL units hit, functions just like concussive shells otherwise, and by itself does zero damage. Would slow movement and attack speed. Edit: Other possible names: Higgs matrix, sonic blast, shellshock (no disrespect to the TL member of that name). Edit 2: Could be accompanied animation similar to AAM/seekermissile, as that is what it's meant to replace. I liked your simple let tanks shoot air solution, all these words and formatting make it less obvious to see how deranged your ideas are, and how completely split from reality you are. Please, whatever your path in life is, please stay away from jobs that involves you looking at a data-set and making decisions that affect other people. | ||
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KR_4EVR
316 Posts
I liked your simple let tanks shoot air solution, all these words and formatting make it less obvious to see how deranged your ideas are, and how completely split from reality you are. Please, whatever your path in life is, please stay away from jobs that involves you looking at a data-set and making decisions that affect other people. How did you guess what my line of work is?  | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2170 Posts
On March 11 2018 01:19 Geo.Rion wrote: I liked your simple let tanks shoot air solution, all these words and formatting make it less obvious to see how deranged your ideas are, and how completely split from reality you are. Please, whatever your path in life is, please stay away from jobs that involves you looking at a data-set and making decisions that affect other people. But isn't his idea just a fungal that deals no damage? | ||
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Freeborn
Germany372 Posts
just stop whining. sure you can have super powerful AOE plus a 3-Armor-upgrade-debuff that hits air and ground... But only if you are willing to give up some power of your basic units which are the most cost efficient in the game. Are you really ready for that? The AAM is supposed to turn the raven into a support role to change it away from mass raven and also from total niche play into a regular support and for that the armor reduction works well, but stackable AOE air/ground instant damage is too strong and as eerybody with a brain knows, can not be evaded you can only split before the attack. Now you terran whiners please remind yourselves that terran bio beats EVERYTHING in small numbers and for cost plus is more mobile and airborne. Protoss is fucking balanced around psistorm forcefields and colossus. Gateway units and even immortals just lose in a straight up fight versus mixed bio. When protoss is spread out terran just always wins in smaller engagements. Same goes for pvz. Nerf bio healing, speed and damage and then sure you can have more AOE, although I doubt that stackable airborne AOE that hits air and ground is a good design in any case. BTW the videos I posted where almost all high level players, If you watch any pro games you will know that protoss armies are usually stacked because they are vulnerable when separated. + Show Spoiler + Just look at Maru vs SOS, that was no strategy or tactic that was pure raw micro abusing the DPS and mobility of stimmed bio, while SOS is somehow delusionally thinking that protoss can win with strategy and bigger army without AOE. I think the more important question is how to make ravens and starport techlabs more accessible and usable without making the units overpowered. In addition to that protoss is still incredibly weak in spread out engagements or without AOE as showcased in the terrible state of pvz, which is way worse that pvt currently. it would probably have been way better to keep the stalker buff and give terran an early game buff like faster, cheaper combat shields or something like that. | ||
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KR_4EVR
316 Posts
On March 11 2018 02:33 Lexender wrote: But isn't his idea just a fungal that deals no damage? Not quite. The attack speed of slowed units would be slowed also. But when you put it that way, people can see that my proposal is actually quite modest. | ||
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KR_4EVR
316 Posts
On March 11 2018 02:37 Freeborn wrote: Seriously Terrans... just stop whining. sure you can have super powerful AOE plus a 3-Armor-upgrade-debuff that hits air and ground... But only if you are willing to give up some power of your basic units which are the most cost efficient in the game. Are you really ready for that? + Show Spoiler + The AAM is supposed to turn the raven into a support role to change it away from mass raven and also from total niche play into a regular support and for that the armor reduction works well, but stackable AOE air/ground instant damage is too strong and as eerybody with a brain knows, can not be evaded you can only split before the attack. Now you terran whiners please remind yourselves that terran bio beats EVERYTHING in small numbers and for cost plus is more mobile and airborne. Protoss is fucking balanced around psistorm forcefields and colossus. Gateway units and even immortals just lose in a straight up fight versus mixed bio. When protoss is spread out terran just always wins in smaller engagements. Same goes for pvz. Nerf bio healing, speed and damage and then sure you can have more AOE, although I doubt that stackable airborne AOE that hits air and ground is a good design in any case. BTW the videos I posted where almost all high level players, If you watch any pro games you will know that protoss armies are usually stacked because they are vulnerable when separated. + Show Spoiler + Just look at Maru vs SOS, that was no strategy or tactic that was pure raw micro abusing the DPS and mobility of stimmed bio, while SOS is somehow delusionally thinking that protoss can win with strategy and bigger army without AOE. I think the more important question is how to make ravens and starport techlabs more accessible and usable without making the units overpowered. In addition to that protoss is still incredibly weak in spread out engagements or without AOE as showcased in the terrible state of pvz, which is way worse that pvt currently. it would probably have been way better to keep the stalker buff and give terran an early game buff like faster, cheaper combat shields or something like that. Actually, if you micro a protoss gateway (win no robo or starport suport) versus a pure bio (no mine, tank, liberator, or medivac support), the protoss gateway beats the bio 100% every time. Force-fields, guardian sheild, charge, resonnating glaves, blink - you have all the tools to win the fight without losing many units. And don't forget just how expensive medivacs are for a unit that does zero damage by itself. | ||
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DomeGetta
405 Posts
On March 11 2018 02:37 Freeborn wrote: Seriously Terrans... just stop whining. sure you can have super powerful AOE plus a 3-Armor-upgrade-debuff that hits air and ground... But only if you are willing to give up some power of your basic units which are the most cost efficient in the game. Are you really ready for that? The AAM is supposed to turn the raven into a support role to change it away from mass raven and also from total niche play into a regular support and for that the armor reduction works well, but stackable AOE air/ground instant damage is too strong and as eerybody with a brain knows, can not be evaded you can only split before the attack. Now you terran whiners please remind yourselves that terran bio beats EVERYTHING in small numbers and for cost plus is more mobile and airborne. Protoss is fucking balanced around psistorm forcefields and colossus. Gateway units and even immortals just lose in a straight up fight versus mixed bio. When protoss is spread out terran just always wins in smaller engagements. Same goes for pvz. Nerf bio healing, speed and damage and then sure you can have more AOE, although I doubt that stackable airborne AOE that hits air and ground is a good design in any case. BTW the videos I posted where almost all high level players, If you watch any pro games you will know that protoss armies are usually stacked because they are vulnerable when separated. + Show Spoiler + Just look at Maru vs SOS, that was no strategy or tactic that was pure raw micro abusing the DPS and mobility of stimmed bio, while SOS is somehow delusionally thinking that protoss can win with strategy and bigger army without AOE. I think the more important question is how to make ravens and starport techlabs more accessible and usable without making the units overpowered. In addition to that protoss is still incredibly weak in spread out engagements or without AOE as showcased in the terrible state of pvz, which is way worse that pvt currently. it would probably have been way better to keep the stalker buff and give terran an early game buff like faster, cheaper combat shields or something like that. LOL - you talk yourself in complete circles in your posts man. Terran bio beats everything in small numbers - you are a literal genius - please go link this post to the top Kr pro Terrans so they can exploit such an obvious imbalance. I haven't watched numerous pro games where an immortal killed 2 medevacs worth of bio - I was definitely dreaming. You site SOS vs Maru - when SOS plays like no other Protoss does in the world rofl. You might not have realized - but EMP's already hit more than 1 unit when they are cast - so good Protoss players already pre-split their high templar - see any of hundreds of pro games available this year alone. Mass gateway attacks aren't a thing?? Are you fucking serious? You can have 2-2 and charge before Terran finishes 1-1 and a move gateway units - see any of literally hundreds of games this year. Every single post here that wants this nerf has 0 logic for how its a BALANCE issue. You can't argue that it's a balance issue when Terran is clearly the weakest of the 3 races currently. And since you know this - you whine about "design, omg, intent ;( raven not posed to do that ;(" When really what you are saying is "omg - now I can get punished for being lazy with map awareness too?? shit! there goes at least 300 mmr for me.. since I've never had to worry about it in the history of sc2.. Think about what you are saying - like actually try to stop and think about it. Terran isn't winning now - (without all of the insane things you propose doing to bio) and the current missile. And yet people who see how obviously stupid this this (circa hots widow mine nerf) are the crazy ones. Edit: I think I'm wasting my time - your posts make a lot more sense now LOL "On January 23 2018 11:48 Freeborn wrote: What exactly is the reason for the stalker nerf? Protoss stalkers feel like a non crappy unit for the first time? Is the ladder being flooded by stalker allins or something? I don't see any problems in the pro games." Super credible | ||
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Athenau
317 Posts
On March 11 2018 02:54 KR_4EVR wrote: Not quite. The attack speed of slowed units would be slowed also. But when you put it that way, people can see that my proposal is actually quite modest. So, a modest proposal you say? | ||
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ReachTheSky
United States3110 Posts
In NA, the top 120 of GM is made up of 50% zergs. lol. | ||
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2011 GSL Super Tournament/Final8
