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Community Feedback Update - March 6 - Page 14

Forum Index > SC2 General
291 CommentsPost a Reply
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tskarzyn
Profile Joined July 2010
United States516 Posts
March 10 2018 19:41 GMT
#261
Confirmed, pre-splitting too difficult for Zerg and Toss pros. Balance is done around the skill of the players more than the strength of the race, and let's be real - top terrans have always been stronger mechanically than their Z and P counterparts.
Lexender
Profile Joined September 2013
Mexico2627 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-10 20:06:38
March 10 2018 20:05 GMT
#262
On March 11 2018 02:37 Freeborn wrote:
Seriously Terrans...

just stop whining.

sure you can have super powerful AOE plus a 3-Armor-upgrade-debuff that hits air and ground...

But only if you are willing to give up some power of your basic units which are the most cost efficient in the game. Are you really ready for that?

The AAM is supposed to turn the raven into a support role to change it away from mass raven and also from total niche play into a regular support and for that the armor reduction works well, but stackable AOE air/ground instant damage is too strong and as eerybody with a brain knows, can not be evaded you can only split before the attack.

Now you terran whiners please remind yourselves that terran bio beats EVERYTHING in small numbers and for cost plus is more mobile and airborne. Protoss is fucking balanced around psistorm forcefields and colossus. Gateway units and even immortals just lose in a straight up fight versus mixed bio. When protoss is spread out terran just always wins in smaller engagements. Same goes for pvz.

Nerf bio healing, speed and damage and then sure you can have more AOE, although I doubt that stackable airborne AOE that hits air and ground is a good design in any case.

BTW the videos I posted where almost all high level players, If you watch any pro games you will know that protoss armies are usually stacked because they are vulnerable when separated.

+ Show Spoiler +
Just look at Maru vs SOS, that was no strategy or tactic that was pure raw micro abusing the DPS and mobility of stimmed bio, while SOS is somehow delusionally thinking that protoss can win with strategy and bigger army without AOE.


I think the more important question is how to make ravens and starport techlabs more accessible and usable without making the units overpowered.

In addition to that protoss is still incredibly weak in spread out engagements or without AOE as showcased in the terrible state of pvz, which is way worse that pvt currently.
it would probably have been way better to keep the stalker buff and give terran an early game buff like faster, cheaper combat shields or something like that.





I don't like mass ravens but thats not true, this isn't HotS, gateway comps can and DO win vs stimmed bio, colossus no longer is a necessity for TvP and terran no longer plays pure bio with medivacs, WM, tanks and liberators are as important for a terran as colossus was in past expansions.
Lexender
Profile Joined September 2013
Mexico2627 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-10 20:06:18
March 10 2018 20:05 GMT
#263
Xamo
Profile Joined April 2012
Spain877 Posts
March 10 2018 20:41 GMT
#264
[B]On March 11 2018 02:37 Freeborn wrote:[/B
it would probably have been way better to keep the stalker buff and give terran an early game buff like faster, cheaper combat shields or something like that.

+1 to this, during the nerf discussion I defended shortening stim research time and not nerfing the stalker. This would also have helped bio in TvT.
My life for Aiur. You got a piece of me, baby. IIIIIIiiiiiii.
gobbledydook
Profile Joined October 2012
Australia2603 Posts
March 11 2018 02:53 GMT
#265
On March 11 2018 05:05 Lexender wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 11 2018 02:37 Freeborn wrote:
Seriously Terrans...

just stop whining.

sure you can have super powerful AOE plus a 3-Armor-upgrade-debuff that hits air and ground...

But only if you are willing to give up some power of your basic units which are the most cost efficient in the game. Are you really ready for that?

The AAM is supposed to turn the raven into a support role to change it away from mass raven and also from total niche play into a regular support and for that the armor reduction works well, but stackable AOE air/ground instant damage is too strong and as eerybody with a brain knows, can not be evaded you can only split before the attack.

Now you terran whiners please remind yourselves that terran bio beats EVERYTHING in small numbers and for cost plus is more mobile and airborne. Protoss is fucking balanced around psistorm forcefields and colossus. Gateway units and even immortals just lose in a straight up fight versus mixed bio. When protoss is spread out terran just always wins in smaller engagements. Same goes for pvz.

Nerf bio healing, speed and damage and then sure you can have more AOE, although I doubt that stackable airborne AOE that hits air and ground is a good design in any case.

BTW the videos I posted where almost all high level players, If you watch any pro games you will know that protoss armies are usually stacked because they are vulnerable when separated.

+ Show Spoiler +
Just look at Maru vs SOS, that was no strategy or tactic that was pure raw micro abusing the DPS and mobility of stimmed bio, while SOS is somehow delusionally thinking that protoss can win with strategy and bigger army without AOE.


I think the more important question is how to make ravens and starport techlabs more accessible and usable without making the units overpowered.

In addition to that protoss is still incredibly weak in spread out engagements or without AOE as showcased in the terrible state of pvz, which is way worse that pvt currently.
it would probably have been way better to keep the stalker buff and give terran an early game buff like faster, cheaper combat shields or something like that.





I don't like mass ravens but thats not true, this isn't HotS, gateway comps can and DO win vs stimmed bio, colossus no longer is a necessity for TvP and terran no longer plays pure bio with medivacs, WM, tanks and liberators are as important for a terran as colossus was in past expansions.


Or, you could stim 16 marines up a ramp and win...just ask Maru
I am a dirty Protoss bullshit abuser
ShambhalaWar
Profile Joined August 2013
United States930 Posts
March 11 2018 04:04 GMT
#266
I hate the drop nerf for zerg, now it's just back to the way it was before. I imagine there is a better solution to the problem then revert it to the way it was before.
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
March 11 2018 04:22 GMT
#267
On March 11 2018 11:53 gobbledydook wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 11 2018 05:05 Lexender wrote:
On March 11 2018 02:37 Freeborn wrote:
Seriously Terrans...

just stop whining.

sure you can have super powerful AOE plus a 3-Armor-upgrade-debuff that hits air and ground...

But only if you are willing to give up some power of your basic units which are the most cost efficient in the game. Are you really ready for that?

The AAM is supposed to turn the raven into a support role to change it away from mass raven and also from total niche play into a regular support and for that the armor reduction works well, but stackable AOE air/ground instant damage is too strong and as eerybody with a brain knows, can not be evaded you can only split before the attack.

Now you terran whiners please remind yourselves that terran bio beats EVERYTHING in small numbers and for cost plus is more mobile and airborne. Protoss is fucking balanced around psistorm forcefields and colossus. Gateway units and even immortals just lose in a straight up fight versus mixed bio. When protoss is spread out terran just always wins in smaller engagements. Same goes for pvz.

Nerf bio healing, speed and damage and then sure you can have more AOE, although I doubt that stackable airborne AOE that hits air and ground is a good design in any case.

BTW the videos I posted where almost all high level players, If you watch any pro games you will know that protoss armies are usually stacked because they are vulnerable when separated.

+ Show Spoiler +
Just look at Maru vs SOS, that was no strategy or tactic that was pure raw micro abusing the DPS and mobility of stimmed bio, while SOS is somehow delusionally thinking that protoss can win with strategy and bigger army without AOE.


I think the more important question is how to make ravens and starport techlabs more accessible and usable without making the units overpowered.

In addition to that protoss is still incredibly weak in spread out engagements or without AOE as showcased in the terrible state of pvz, which is way worse that pvt currently.
it would probably have been way better to keep the stalker buff and give terran an early game buff like faster, cheaper combat shields or something like that.





I don't like mass ravens but thats not true, this isn't HotS, gateway comps can and DO win vs stimmed bio, colossus no longer is a necessity for TvP and terran no longer plays pure bio with medivacs, WM, tanks and liberators are as important for a terran as colossus was in past expansions.


Or, you could stim 16 marines up a ramp and win...just ask Maru

Of course, every Terran can count on their Protoss opponent to donate a free Oracle and Phoenix to start, then botch their FF placement and lose the rest of their army.

Obviously.
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
ReachTheSky
Profile Joined April 2010
United States3294 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-11 05:12:59
March 11 2018 05:01 GMT
#268
Has anyone asked the big question of "Why is protoss and zerg allowed to have broken late game armies but terran isn't?" This double standard really needs to go. It's like toss/zergs want everything in the world but don't want their opposing counterparts to have anything. Like get real.

All this raven nerf talk is a bunch of nonsense.
TL+ Member
ihatevideogames
Profile Joined August 2015
570 Posts
March 11 2018 06:32 GMT
#269
On March 11 2018 14:01 ReachTheSky wrote:
Has anyone asked the big question of "Why is protoss and zerg allowed to have broken late game armies but terran isn't?" This double standard really needs to go. It's like toss/zergs want everything in the world but don't want their opposing counterparts to have anything. Like get real.

All this raven nerf talk is a bunch of nonsense.

Because 'MUH ESPORTS'. Literally. Someone in Activision's marketing department probably thinks Terran having no lategame leads to more 'action packed' games.
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-11 07:57:10
March 11 2018 07:55 GMT
#270
On March 11 2018 02:54 KR_4EVR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 11 2018 02:33 Lexender wrote:
On March 11 2018 01:19 Geo.Rion wrote:
On March 11 2018 00:24 KR_4EVR wrote:
I've posted quite a few solutions on various related threads, ranging from the bizarre (shooting tankivac) to the reasonable (viking acceleration buff and a2a attack buff for better kiting). However, I have thought of another one:


First, look at some stats:


Fungal Growth
Energy 75
Range: 10
Duration: 3 s
Radius: 2.25
Hotkey: F
Target units take 30 damage over 3 seconds and have movement speed reduced by 75%. Reveals cloaked and burrowed units.


Psionic Storm
Energy 75
Range: 9
Cooldown: 1.43 s
Duration: 2.85 s
Radius: 1.5
Hotkey: T
Creates a storm of psionic energy that lasts 2.85 seconds, causing up to 80 damage to all units in the target area.



Concussive Shells
Duration: 1.07 s
Slows an enemy's movement speed by 50% when hit. The slowing effect does not stack, but the timer is refreshed by subsequent hits.



I suggest that raven get a range 9-10 castable instant ability that costs 75 energy and could be called concussion matrix that slows units in a 1.5 to 2.25 radius, duration 1-3 seconds, applies to ALL units hit, functions just like concussive shells otherwise, and by itself does zero damage. Would slow movement and attack speed.


Edit: Other possible names: Higgs matrix, sonic blast, shellshock (no disrespect to the TL member of that name).
Edit 2: Could be accompanied animation similar to AAM/seekermissile, as that is what it's meant to replace.

I liked your simple let tanks shoot air solution, all these words and formatting make it less obvious to see how deranged your ideas are, and how completely split from reality you are.
Please, whatever your path in life is, please stay away from jobs that involves you looking at a data-set and making decisions that affect other people.



But isn't his idea just a fungal that deals no damage?


Not quite. The attack speed of slowed units would be slowed also. But when you put it that way, people can see that my proposal is actually quite modest.

yes, a modest request to give a flying unit a fungal that slows attack speed as well. Yes, terran does need that, i agree.
But in the meantime, i would also like to make a modest request for Hydralisks to gain a new ability, Battle rage.
It would buff movement speed and attack speed, but only for a short while, not unlike the stimpack terrans use, but to make it a bit different, instead of costing health it will add +20 HP for the duration.

Also, as someone very smartly came up with the idea already, the burrow upgrade should make corruptors able to become a ground to ground unit, and while we re at it we need to address somehow the outrageous situatuion that right now Broodlords have no Anti Air. After all its the only racial capitalship that doesnt do A-A and A-G simultaneously, I mean who could argue that this is unfair? 2/3 race have such unit it, and 1/3 dont, like really? where s my pitchfork
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
tskarzyn
Profile Joined July 2010
United States516 Posts
March 11 2018 16:12 GMT
#271
On March 11 2018 14:01 ReachTheSky wrote:
Has anyone asked the big question of "Why is protoss and zerg allowed to have broken late game armies but terran isn't?" This double standard really needs to go. It's like toss/zergs want everything in the world but don't want their opposing counterparts to have anything. Like get real.

All this raven nerf talk is a bunch of nonsense.


I think it is partly because the onus is on Terran to create exciting games. Terran is aggressive from start to finish to keep Z/P from growing out of control. Terran is splitting against Z/P spells or AoE. Terran's units are squishy and fast and rely on multi-tasking and positioning to win. If every race functioned like Z and P, the game would be a bore-fest.
KR_4EVR
Profile Joined July 2017
316 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-11 23:02:34
March 11 2018 23:01 GMT
#272
On March 11 2018 16:55 Geo.Rion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 11 2018 02:54 KR_4EVR wrote:
On March 11 2018 02:33 Lexender wrote:
On March 11 2018 01:19 Geo.Rion wrote:
On March 11 2018 00:24 KR_4EVR wrote:
I've posted quite a few solutions on various related threads, ranging from the bizarre (shooting tankivac) to the reasonable (viking acceleration buff and a2a attack buff for better kiting). However, I have thought of another one:


First, look at some stats:


Fungal Growth
Energy 75
Range: 10
Duration: 3 s
Radius: 2.25
Hotkey: F
Target units take 30 damage over 3 seconds and have movement speed reduced by 75%. Reveals cloaked and burrowed units.


Psionic Storm
Energy 75
Range: 9
Cooldown: 1.43 s
Duration: 2.85 s
Radius: 1.5
Hotkey: T
Creates a storm of psionic energy that lasts 2.85 seconds, causing up to 80 damage to all units in the target area.



Concussive Shells
Duration: 1.07 s
Slows an enemy's movement speed by 50% when hit. The slowing effect does not stack, but the timer is refreshed by subsequent hits.



I suggest that raven get a range 9-10 castable instant ability that costs 75 energy and could be called concussion matrix that slows units in a 1.5 to 2.25 radius, duration 1-3 seconds, applies to ALL units hit, functions just like concussive shells otherwise, and by itself does zero damage. Would slow movement and attack speed.


Edit: Other possible names: Higgs matrix, sonic blast, shellshock (no disrespect to the TL member of that name).
Edit 2: Could be accompanied animation similar to AAM/seekermissile, as that is what it's meant to replace.

I liked your simple let tanks shoot air solution, all these words and formatting make it less obvious to see how deranged your ideas are, and how completely split from reality you are.
Please, whatever your path in life is, please stay away from jobs that involves you looking at a data-set and making decisions that affect other people.



But isn't his idea just a fungal that deals no damage?


Not quite. The attack speed of slowed units would be slowed also. But when you put it that way, people can see that my proposal is actually quite modest.

yes, a modest request to give a flying unit a fungal that slows attack speed as well. Yes, terran does need that, i agree.
But in the meantime, i would also like to make a modest request for Hydralisks to gain a new ability, Battle rage.
It would buff movement speed and attack speed, but only for a short while, not unlike the stimpack terrans use, but to make it a bit different, instead of costing health it will add +20 HP for the duration.

Also, as someone very smartly came up with the idea already, the burrow upgrade should make corruptors able to become a ground to ground unit, and while we re at it we need to address somehow the outrageous situatuion that right now Broodlords have no Anti Air. After all its the only racial capitalship that doesnt do A-A and A-G simultaneously, I mean who could argue that this is unfair? 2/3 race have such unit it, and 1/3 dont, like really? where s my pitchfork


I really wish you wouldn't dismiss my idea like this without serious thought. The proposed spell would be from Ravens only, would (unlike storm or fungal) do zero damage by itself, and would just have slowing effect. That's not as powerful as either of fungal or storm, and it's far less damage than current AAM or Seeker Missile. It really is a good compromise spell.
Edit: And quite nicely, duration of slow provides a simple, tweakable, balancing variable.
Et tu Brute ?
KR_4EVR
Profile Joined July 2017
316 Posts
March 11 2018 23:07 GMT
#273
i would also like to make a modest request for Hydralisks to gain a new ability, Battle rage.
It would buff movement speed and attack speed, but only for a short while, not unlike the stimpack terrans use


I think it would be interesting for all races to have an upgrade like stim, upgrades like hydra +1/speed, and an upgrade like charge. The first one you choose costs 100/100, the second one 200/200, the third one 300/300, and the fourth one 400/400.
Et tu Brute ?
Beliskner
Profile Joined August 2015
111 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-12 00:31:25
March 12 2018 00:29 GMT
#274
On March 11 2018 14:01 ReachTheSky wrote:
Has anyone asked the big question of "Why is protoss and zerg allowed to have broken late game armies but terran isn't?" This double standard really needs to go. It's like toss/zergs want everything in the world but don't want their opposing counterparts to have anything. Like get real.

All this raven nerf talk is a bunch of nonsense.


The reason for the raven nerf has nothing to do with terran not allowed to have a good late game.

It's getting changed because Blizzard did not intend for the new raven to be massed and anti-armor missile to be spammed like it is, they specifically said that was their goal with the redesign. Which is why it's getting changed so quickly. It has nothing to do with it being really OP and Blizzard saying 'OMG NO WE CANT LET TERRAN HAVE LATEGAME' but Blizzard probably saw it at IEM and thought 'Oh whoops that's specifically the opposite of what we intended'.
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-12 00:39:17
March 12 2018 00:32 GMT
#275
On March 12 2018 09:29 Beliskner wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 11 2018 14:01 ReachTheSky wrote:
Has anyone asked the big question of "Why is protoss and zerg allowed to have broken late game armies but terran isn't?" This double standard really needs to go. It's like toss/zergs want everything in the world but don't want their opposing counterparts to have anything. Like get real.

All this raven nerf talk is a bunch of nonsense.


The reason for the raven nerf has nothing to do with terran not allowed to have a good late game.

It's getting changed because Blizzard did not intend for the new raven to be massed and anti-armor missile to be spammed like it is, they specifically said that was their goal with the redesign. Which is why it's getting changed so quickly. It has nothing to do with it really being OP and Blizzard saying 'OMG NO WE CANT LET TERRAN HAVE LATEGAME' but Blizzard probably saw it at IEM and thought 'Oh whoops that's specifically the opposite of what we intended'.

And the reason people are complaining is because Terran lategame (sans Raven) is shit, not to put too fine a point on it (mostly TvP, TvZ is alright). +10 health on the Viking certainly isn't going to change that. Unintended or not, nerfing the Raven without compensation screws over a race that has struggled pretty hard post-4.0.

The struggle is an understandable consequence of a major design patch like 4.0 but a reasonable person would expect Blizzard to take steps to remedy that, not aggravate it. In a vacuum, you are absolutely correct. In this context, not so much.

I haven't even touched the game yet this year (because of workload, thanks ML!) and have been relatively aloof, but even I can see where the complaints coming from.
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
ilikeredheads
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada1995 Posts
March 12 2018 00:52 GMT
#276
just making the damage unstackable like storm would be a good change, but no, let's nerf it into the ground to ensure terran has no viable late game.
xongnox
Profile Joined November 2011
540 Posts
March 12 2018 02:38 GMT
#277
On March 11 2018 05:05 Lexender wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 11 2018 02:37 Freeborn wrote:
Seriously Terrans...

just stop whining.

sure you can have super powerful AOE plus a 3-Armor-upgrade-debuff that hits air and ground...

But only if you are willing to give up some power of your basic units which are the most cost efficient in the game. Are you really ready for that?

The AAM is supposed to turn the raven into a support role to change it away from mass raven and also from total niche play into a regular support and for that the armor reduction works well, but stackable AOE air/ground instant damage is too strong and as eerybody with a brain knows, can not be evaded you can only split before the attack.

Now you terran whiners please remind yourselves that terran bio beats EVERYTHING in small numbers and for cost plus is more mobile and airborne. Protoss is fucking balanced around psistorm forcefields and colossus. Gateway units and even immortals just lose in a straight up fight versus mixed bio. When protoss is spread out terran just always wins in smaller engagements. Same goes for pvz.

Nerf bio healing, speed and damage and then sure you can have more AOE, although I doubt that stackable airborne AOE that hits air and ground is a good design in any case.

BTW the videos I posted where almost all high level players, If you watch any pro games you will know that protoss armies are usually stacked because they are vulnerable when separated.

+ Show Spoiler +
Just look at Maru vs SOS, that was no strategy or tactic that was pure raw micro abusing the DPS and mobility of stimmed bio, while SOS is somehow delusionally thinking that protoss can win with strategy and bigger army without AOE.


I think the more important question is how to make ravens and starport techlabs more accessible and usable without making the units overpowered.

In addition to that protoss is still incredibly weak in spread out engagements or without AOE as showcased in the terrible state of pvz, which is way worse that pvt currently.
it would probably have been way better to keep the stalker buff and give terran an early game buff like faster, cheaper combat shields or something like that.





I don't like mass ravens but thats not true, this isn't HotS, gateway comps can and DO win vs stimmed bio, colossus no longer is a necessity for TvP and terran no longer plays pure bio with medivacs, WM, tanks and liberators are as important for a terran as colossus was in past expansions.


Yep, pure bio medivacs in LOTV actually get reck by hydras, by gling/banes/hydra, by gateway units with minimum support (say 1 guardian shield and 1 immortal), by gateway/immo/archons etc.
Every decent master player knows theses facts.
It's actually probably the weaker composition of the game, the one we nearly never see in pro games. Adding respectively tanks/libs/ghosts and mines/ghosts/libs/ make it way better in frontal fights (but still trash vs Toss) but also take away some advantage of bio (like mobility and ability to engage fast)

Yet some frozen in past people still believes bio is strong, probably dreaming of the so so many terrans who only make marines and medivacs like MKP "1a moving to victory" vs storms and banes.
At this point it's not even myths but pure dementia...
hiroshOne
Profile Joined October 2015
Poland425 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-12 07:50:33
March 12 2018 07:50 GMT
#278
Actually Terran problems on the ladder and in tournaments have their source in PvT matchup. The problem is with chronoboost being riddicously strong. Especially when used to pump upgrades, which makes BIO obsolete vs Gateway units. The next step for Blizzard is to tone down Chronoboost, as it's the strongest macro booster right now.

For Terrans- just be careful what u wish for. If Blizzard would buff your lategame more, they would have to nerf your midgame first.
Ultima Ratio Regum
Decendos
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany1338 Posts
March 12 2018 09:18 GMT
#279
On March 11 2018 13:04 ShambhalaWar wrote:
I hate the drop nerf for zerg, now it's just back to the way it was before. I imagine there is a better solution to the problem then revert it to the way it was before.


They couldve just make overlords take longer to morph into droppalords and after lair finishes its faster morph again. That way drop would still be a thing but come out a bit later which is the whole problem.
OkStyX
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
Canada1199 Posts
March 12 2018 09:25 GMT
#280
On March 12 2018 09:29 Beliskner wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 11 2018 14:01 ReachTheSky wrote:
Has anyone asked the big question of "Why is protoss and zerg allowed to have broken late game armies but terran isn't?" This double standard really needs to go. It's like toss/zergs want everything in the world but don't want their opposing counterparts to have anything. Like get real.

All this raven nerf talk is a bunch of nonsense.


The reason for the raven nerf has nothing to do with terran not allowed to have a good late game.

It's getting changed because Blizzard did not intend for the new raven to be massed and anti-armor missile to be spammed like it is, they specifically said that was their goal with the redesign. Which is why it's getting changed so quickly. It has nothing to do with it being really OP and Blizzard saying 'OMG NO WE CANT LET TERRAN HAVE LATEGAME' but Blizzard probably saw it at IEM and thought 'Oh whoops that's specifically the opposite of what we intended'.

Don't bother like talking to a brick wall
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