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On March 08 2018 05:46 Freeborn wrote:
Every terran whining please go and check out the recent youtube videos of the raven obliterating a carrier fleet with zero chance of evasion or counter or escape...
Alternatively go and load up the unit tester and have 10+ (20ish supply) shoot at a stacked 100 (air/ground) supply toss army and see it get almost obliterated instantly.
It's really ridiculous.
Another factor that is often overlooked is that a raven (with 200 energy) can now disable 4 units instantly for 8 seconds, so a single raven can take out all or most collossi from a fight, which is huge. 3 Raven can disable 12 carriers, 9 raven can keep 12 carriers disabled for 24 seconds.
Not to mention the fact that the AA missile aoe is so huge that you only need 2 raven to blanket an army for 20 seconds, The effect of which equals a +3 Attack uprade when used with marines.
Marauders, cyclones and BC will also hugely benefit from it, I think the 20 sec duration is actually a bit too long.
Oh and anyone saying cant force a fight... wtf? terran can just drop toss bases and protoss is forced to defend. And ravens are perfect to accompany and enhance bio drops.
The main reason that ravens are rarely used - unless they are overpowered - is probably the fact that terrans basically never need a techlab on a starport.. you want a reactor for medivacs, libs and vikings.
I would even recommend changing the liberator into a techlab unit and reducing its buildtime and maybe adjusting some other stats, that would make starport techlabs more common and would probably encourage the raven usage a bit more.
there are way too many air units that are reactorable to justify building a techlab for ravens only and the liberator is way too powerful too be mass produced in my opinion...
In what planet does a terran have the luxury of going mass raven to support his bio vs a protoss? Certainly not in Masters and above.
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On March 08 2018 23:36 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2018 21:12 Freeborn wrote:On March 08 2018 11:18 Fango wrote:On March 08 2018 06:10 Freeborn wrote:
Plus your comparison is not really valid, since 50 mutas still have to fly into the mines and marines have to stand in the storm whereas the AAM has a big range and cant be evaded. Also to be fair widowmines are probably a big reason why mass mutas don't work as well any more and storm is a big reason why mass marine is not the best choice vs a toss with HT.
Now also be aware of the fact that the AAM works versus EVERY UNIT IN THE GAME and can only be dimished at all by totally spreading your army. Are you being serious? You made ridiculous claims like "20 supply of ravens can kill a 100 supply toss army", but giving examples equally stupid stuff is invalid? If you leave a 100 suppy army stacked like that you're asking to lose it. The same as if you clump up 30 marines against psistorm, or fly a stacked muta army over widow mines. That's why spreading is a thing. You know that 2 vipers or 2 high templar will kill a 100 supply viking army right? But with a good pre split that number is reduced dramatically. It's the same with ravens, I just tried fighting 2000 gas of ravens against 2000 gas of corruptors for example. If you stack the corruptors they all die, but if you spread them out you barely lose any (and I'm not talking seperate each unit, just a simple pre split). And btw mass muta is not often seen nowadays because of thors, and hydras being just being better. Widow mines have been a thing since 2013, they aren't the reason LBM is dead. On March 08 2018 06:10 Freeborn wrote:On March 08 2018 05:57 Fango wrote:On March 08 2018 05:46 Freeborn wrote:
Every terran whining please go and check out the recent youtube videos of the raven obliterating a carrier fleet with zero chance of evasion or counter or escape...
Alternatively go and load up the unit tester and have 10+ (20ish supply) shoot at a stacked 100 (air/ground) supply toss army and see it get almost obliterated instantly.
It's really ridiculous. You can make all kinds of shit happen in a unit tester. 3 widow mines can kill 50 mutas, one high templar can kill 30 marines etc etc. The game should be balanced around the pro level. And currently at the pro level terran is by far the worst race. They haven't made a final in 6 months, Katowice had 2 terran in the ro12, GSL has 1 in the ro8, and WCS also had 1 in the ro8. That's why terrans are whining. Maru's performance at Katowice was the only glimmer of hope and it was enough to get terran nerfed again. Check out the youtube videos then of progamers using them in real games lol... Show me those videos then. From what I can see terran is by far the weakest race currently. Nerfing them even more is just ridiculous. Terran ultra lategame has been weak for years, and now that Maru won a few skyterran games that it apparently suddenly needs nerfing. P and Z players just don't want to adapt to terran actually competing in that area of the game for once. Are you being intentionally dense? To make it clear: Mutas as well as carriers and most air units work best when stacked, in a late game scenario DPS per area is important, you want to do as much damage as possible on every clash (deathball you know?). For that you need only watch any pro game using carriers mutas and even vikings. In the case of parasitic bomb and psistorm most of the damage can be averted if you split after the fact plus they dont stack. And in the case of psistorm the damage is so low that marauders with medivacs can sometimes even stand in it and win fight. Not to mention the fact that AAM is as the name suggests an ANTI ARMOR MISSILE NOT A SEEKER MISSILE which everybody hated. And the anti armor part actually is very strong and last 20 seconds, which equals +3 attack for marines for 2+ engagements on one cast. And since the AOE is huge u don't need more than a max of 3 casts to splash an army. Also: And this one to showcase how small drop can be crazily boosted by the AAM: If that doesn't convince you, then you are hopeless. Terran may or may not need buffs/changes but the AAM was just a replication of the seeker missile problem: unfun, unbalanced and without weakness or counter. Let's wait and see how terrans use the actual anti armor effect and the interference matrix. We all know terrans are a bit slow to accept changes that are not instantly and obviously overpowered  Holy shit the double standards are ridiculous. So vikings and terran units are fine against aoe because you should just split? But protoss and zerg shouldn't have to do the same? I cannot believe you're showing clips of players stacking literally thousands of resources worth of units on top of eachother then complaining that they die. None of those fights would have ended that way had the players just spread their units out and managed the engagements property. Yet if a skyterran army clumped up like that and died to a couple fungals/parasitic bombs you'd just tell them to split.... Now you say that they have to clump up units to maximise dps? The trade off is that stacking makes them more vulnerable to aoe spells. This is something terran has been dealing with since forever. Like I said before, go load up your precious unit tester and see for yourself. When I tried it, 2000 gas worth of ravens can't kill 2000 gas of corruptors or carriers if they pre-split. The same way 2 vipers cannot kill 20 vikings if they're spread out. Apparently protoss and Zerg players are just too used to the lategame being an autowin that they don't want to learn how to fight there. They'd rather complain about the objectively weakest race in the game actually having a chance there for once. You can dislike the AAM from a design perspective, but calling it imbalanced is outright stupid. Terran is the worst performing race in tournaments right now by a significant margin. If terran was imba there would be more than one player getting results.
As a zerg, i agree, for me it was completly counterable as soon as you build infestors. With infested terrans, fungal and neural (for BC), + few vipers, it's just about who microes the best.
And yeah, i don't understand why they buff Protoss while it's already P favored on PvT. It seems to be a L2P issue for P too, they have weapons to fight mass raven. HT can feedback, pre-storm when Z approches.
Blink stalkers can dodge the missile. WP can pick-up units. SB can heal .
As with WM, at the beginning it was hard, seems OP, but after we used to micro better, and aslo not to send all your army on one wave, but send few units first to trigger WM.
Here if you force T to launch a lot of missile on a small part of your army, suddendly -30 on some 400hp+ units isn't that much and cost a lot of energy.
The only thing that could have been disscussed is -1 range to have same range for storm/PB/AMA (but as zerg with 10+ range with fungal it's unecessary for Zerg, but maybe for protoss).
But yeah, i understand your rage, it's almost like they don't want "Protoss too hard", while it's already ridiculous easier in the lategame...
If i were protoss i felt insulted that Blizzard consider protoss players like kids, that are unable to micro, and should have a really noobfriendly design (like attack on ht lol), else it' will be too hard for them...
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On March 08 2018 09:30 ReachTheSky wrote:
You said it, Terran isn't dominating therefore it doesn't need a nerf.
@blizzard Nerfing things that are NOT dominating is NOT how you balance a game.
This. The new balance team is so disappointing. 1/8 Terran left in GSL. Only 2 Terrans made it into the playoffs at IEM. Terran is struggling so they nerf Terran even more.
PvsT is a joke right now. Fix it Blizzard.
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As a spectator I was very happy with the anti death ball AAM from a game design perspective. The P death ball design has haunted the game from the start spectator wise and anything that punish the death ball is good IMO.
But I don't know really. The P design has been poor from a game design perspective from the start and it didn't get better when they introduced the Disruptor. What were they thinking?
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On March 09 2018 03:53 Tyrhanius wrote:
Blink stalkers can dodge.
WP can pick-up units.
SB can heal
But that's about it.
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On March 08 2018 22:34 seemsgood wrote:
Am i the only one who put design over anything else??? I understand terran's struggle but FFS! Keeping the current ravens will leave no room to buff other and what you guys terran players need to bitch about is fucking vikings buff not the raven! Force blizzard be more aggressive with terran favtory units!
thank god that there are still people left with some sanity!
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On March 09 2018 02:25 ihatevideogames wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2018 01:35 xongnox wrote:
I feel like people confuses splitting reactivity (once the storm hits or the banes comes, for example) and pre-spreading an army before taking engagement. Pre-spreading can be made and is made with very slow units like BL, or even siege tanks ! (vs viper blinding cloud).
Personally i feel like this raven iteration was a bad design, but i feel like all mass-air clumped deathball are terrible in SC2, badly designed, frustrating to play with, to play versus, and generally way too powerfull. The abusive clustering of air units is he main part of the issue.
This could have been fixed easily in design-patch by adding an air-collision radius (so we can still have clustered mutas and phoenixes with 0 radius but not BL or carriers )
This is a know issue and critique for years, yet blizzard do nothing to it. And then to counter bad design choice effects they make another bad design units/mechanism, and so on... And every time there was something in the game or the balance test map that could deal with mass air deathballs, it either never made it or was removed from the game. Lib anti-air? Removed from the game. Seeker missile? Removed from the game. Thor splash attack full damage vs all? Never made it out of the test map. AAM? Removed from the game. Activision wants toss and zerg to have unstoppable lategames vs terran in order to force 'action packed' games. It sounds like a stupid conspiracy theory but every community update, every patch, reinforces it.
I agree with you.
The thing is, when terran have a tool to deal with turtle deathball (air)bullshit style, per definition or so this same tool is itself a turtle deathball (air)bullshit style.
So in a perfect world we would nerf raven AND others pre-existent, and way more played, TDABS ( Turtle Deathball (Air) Bullshit Style).
Nerfing Raven after 2 Maru games without touching to obvious ugly TDABS played since months is kinda lame (everyone remember Neeb playing mass carrier ht vs Zergs ? Late-game Pvt is kinda the same horror, we simply don't see game during that long anymore..), and doing it without any real help for real huge balance concerns (TvP) during a very weak terran meta is borderline insulting terrans.
But i guess we shouldn't think about malignancy or conspiracy when plain nullity can explain things.
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On March 09 2018 04:51 MrWayne wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2018 22:34 seemsgood wrote:
Am i the only one who put design over anything else??? I understand terran's struggle but FFS! Keeping the current ravens will leave no room to buff other and what you guys terran players need to bitch about is fucking vikings buff not the raven! Force blizzard be more aggressive with terran favtory units! thank god that there are still people left with some sanity!
Factory units were already buffed 42x times. They are strong to play mech, witch for fundamental reasons is only viable vZ and vT. Except mines, they do not affect TvP that much. Mech is arguably already too strong in TvT.
We want BIO great again. tho a mine reverse would help a lot (in limiting too good actual PvT build orders )
Balance wise, TvZ lategame is already ok without ravens thanks to ghost and lib range. (well i d'ont like the design of either, but that's another topic)
Meanwhile in TvP the MU is so broken either the terran 2 bases all-in or get destroyed way way before super-late-game. So this Maru vs Stats game was an exception, due to the map and Stats very strange passive play (tbh he seemed sick at the event )
So we need to bitch about bio way to weak =) And toss vT openings way too strong.
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When I play Terran and am not playing TvT, I have to split vs storm, parasitic bomb, fungal growth, ravager bile, banelings, sentry force field, Colossus lance, etc. Split, split, split correctly or I die.
What's so wrong with forcing zerg and protoss to also finally learn to split units?
The raven nerf is a joke. Per unit energy, it doesn't even compare to what can be done with fungal growth or storm. IIf anything, remove the interference matrix and return the PDD. I don't even care about the auto turret. You can take the auto-turret away too. But the raven needs a seeker-missile -like massive AOE damage ability.
Without widow mines currently viable as support past the 1/1 upgrade zone, terran need a support unit that can target ground or air and has AOE.
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On March 08 2018 05:46 Freeborn wrote:
Every terran whining please go and check out the recent youtube videos of the raven obliterating a carrier fleet with zero chance of evasion or counter or escape...
Umm. Splitting units? Recalling? Moving the units the AAM is going to run into out of the way? There are lots of fictitious answers to this fictitious scenario.
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In an ideal world, the rates of winnning (for non-mirror matches) would be the following percentage splits:
PvT: 55:45
TvZ: 55:45
ZvP: 55:45
The loop of (ZPT) is balance.
There is another way to balance:
PvT: 50:50
TvZ: 50:50
ZvP: 50:50
This is also fair. Even more fair.
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On March 09 2018 06:57 KR_4EVR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2018 05:46 Freeborn wrote:
Every terran whining please go and check out the recent youtube videos of the raven obliterating a carrier fleet with zero chance of evasion or counter or escape...
Umm. Splitting units? Recalling? Moving the units the AAM is going to run into out of the way? There are lots of fictitious answers to this fictitious scenario.
None of your fictitious answers work though since the anti-air missile is near instantaneous and you can spam 20 of them. And I don't even know what to think about your laughable suggestion of recalling.
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On March 09 2018 07:07 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2018 06:57 KR_4EVR wrote:On March 08 2018 05:46 Freeborn wrote:
Every terran whining please go and check out the recent youtube videos of the raven obliterating a carrier fleet with zero chance of evasion or counter or escape...
Umm. Splitting units? Recalling? Moving the units the AAM is going to run into out of the way? There are lots of fictitious answers to this fictitious scenario. None of your fictitious answers work though since the anti-air missile is near instantaneous. And I don't even know what to think about your laughable suggestion of recalling.
I never said you had to split AFTER the AAM hits. Just like I don't just split AFTER i get fungal-ed or stormed. I split BEFORE.
Ravens aren't exactly fast, and observers are invisible. You would be able to see the ravens coming and recall well-in-advance if you deemed the engagement threatening.
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On March 09 2018 07:09 KR_4EVR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2018 07:07 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 09 2018 06:57 KR_4EVR wrote:On March 08 2018 05:46 Freeborn wrote:
Every terran whining please go and check out the recent youtube videos of the raven obliterating a carrier fleet with zero chance of evasion or counter or escape...
Umm. Splitting units? Recalling? Moving the units the AAM is going to run into out of the way? There are lots of fictitious answers to this fictitious scenario. None of your fictitious answers work though since the anti-air missile is near instantaneous. And I don't even know what to think about your laughable suggestion of recalling. I never said you had to split AFTER the AAM hits. Just like I don't just split AFTER i get fungal-ed or stormed. I split BEFORE. Ravens aren't exactly fast, and observers are invisible. You would be able to see the ravens coming and recall well-in-advance if you deemed the engagement threatening.
That makes no sense. You'd just retreat rather than recalling.
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Zerg early drop was the dumbest idea in sc2 on par with swarm hosts, took 2 years to realise
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Everyone complaining about the raven nerf, exercise some god-damn common sense. Blizzard is not going to compromise on their design approach no matter how you reeeee, but they are giving terran a compensatory buff, and we KNOW that they take community feedback into account, so instead of wasting their time with pointless bitching, advocate for buffs that don't involve keeping missile spam in the game. If you don't think the viking buff is big enough, SAY SO. Hell, the community consensus seems to be that it isn't enough, so any suggestions along those lines will, in all likelihood, be implemented.
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On March 09 2018 07:07 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2018 06:57 KR_4EVR wrote:On March 08 2018 05:46 Freeborn wrote:
Every terran whining please go and check out the recent youtube videos of the raven obliterating a carrier fleet with zero chance of evasion or counter or escape...
Umm. Splitting units? Recalling? Moving the units the AAM is going to run into out of the way? There are lots of fictitious answers to this fictitious scenario. None of your fictitious answers work though since the anti-air missile is near instantaneous and you can spam 20 of them. And I don't even know what to think about your laughable suggestion of recalling.
Yah true that man - you have so much more time to split vs storm - not like you have a spell that drains all of a units energy and deals damage to it.. or a stronger air force.. or multiple other units that have "free aoe damage" late game - better nerf Terran because they are so over represented in top tournaments right? That missle so unfair Toss or Zerg hasn't won anything lately.. all those foreign Terrans tearing up tournaments it's really sad.
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Canada8991 Posts
Goodbye orange Starcraft you will be miss, I hope you meet fungal-green Starcraft wherever you are.
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EPT
