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On March 08 2018 21:12 Freeborn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2018 11:18 Fango wrote:On March 08 2018 06:10 Freeborn wrote:
Plus your comparison is not really valid, since 50 mutas still have to fly into the mines and marines have to stand in the storm whereas the AAM has a big range and cant be evaded. Also to be fair widowmines are probably a big reason why mass mutas don't work as well any more and storm is a big reason why mass marine is not the best choice vs a toss with HT.
Now also be aware of the fact that the AAM works versus EVERY UNIT IN THE GAME and can only be dimished at all by totally spreading your army. Are you being serious? You made ridiculous claims like "20 supply of ravens can kill a 100 supply toss army", but giving examples equally stupid stuff is invalid? If you leave a 100 suppy army stacked like that you're asking to lose it. The same as if you clump up 30 marines against psistorm, or fly a stacked muta army over widow mines. That's why spreading is a thing. You know that 2 vipers or 2 high templar will kill a 100 supply viking army right? But with a good pre split that number is reduced dramatically. It's the same with ravens, I just tried fighting 2000 gas of ravens against 2000 gas of corruptors for example. If you stack the corruptors they all die, but if you spread them out you barely lose any (and I'm not talking seperate each unit, just a simple pre split). And btw mass muta is not often seen nowadays because of thors, and hydras being just being better. Widow mines have been a thing since 2013, they aren't the reason LBM is dead. On March 08 2018 06:10 Freeborn wrote:On March 08 2018 05:57 Fango wrote:On March 08 2018 05:46 Freeborn wrote:
Every terran whining please go and check out the recent youtube videos of the raven obliterating a carrier fleet with zero chance of evasion or counter or escape...
Alternatively go and load up the unit tester and have 10+ (20ish supply) shoot at a stacked 100 (air/ground) supply toss army and see it get almost obliterated instantly.
It's really ridiculous. You can make all kinds of shit happen in a unit tester. 3 widow mines can kill 50 mutas, one high templar can kill 30 marines etc etc. The game should be balanced around the pro level. And currently at the pro level terran is by far the worst race. They haven't made a final in 6 months, Katowice had 2 terran in the ro12, GSL has 1 in the ro8, and WCS also had 1 in the ro8. That's why terrans are whining. Maru's performance at Katowice was the only glimmer of hope and it was enough to get terran nerfed again. Check out the youtube videos then of progamers using them in real games lol... Show me those videos then. From what I can see terran is by far the weakest race currently. Nerfing them even more is just ridiculous. Terran ultra lategame has been weak for years, and now that Maru won a few skyterran games that it apparently suddenly needs nerfing. P and Z players just don't want to adapt to terran actually competing in that area of the game for once. Are you being intentionally dense? To make it clear: Mutas as well as carriers and most air units work best when stacked, in a late game scenario DPS per area is important, you want to do as much damage as possible on every clash (deathball you know?). For that you need only watch any pro game using carriers mutas and even vikings. In the case of parasitic bomb and psistorm most of the damage can be averted if you split after the fact plus they dont stack. And in the case of psistorm the damage is so low that marauders with medivacs can sometimes even stand in it and win fight. Not to mention the fact that AAM is as the name suggests an ANTI ARMOR MISSILE NOT A SEEKER MISSILE which everybody hated. And the anti armor part actually is very strong and last 20 seconds, which equals +3 attack for marines for 2+ engagements on one cast. And since the AOE is huge u don't need more than a max of 3 casts to splash an army. Also: And this one to showcase how small drop can be crazily boosted by the AAM: If that doesn't convince you, then you are hopeless. Terran may or may not need buffs/changes but the AAM was just a replication of the seeker missile problem: unfun, unbalanced and without weakness or counter. Let's wait and see how terrans use the actual anti armor effect and the interference matrix. We all know terrans are a bit slow to accept changes that are not instantly and obviously overpowered 
wow those clips are crazy, can't believe people don't see how OP that ability is.
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On March 08 2018 21:12 Freeborn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2018 11:18 Fango wrote:On March 08 2018 06:10 Freeborn wrote:
Plus your comparison is not really valid, since 50 mutas still have to fly into the mines and marines have to stand in the storm whereas the AAM has a big range and cant be evaded. Also to be fair widowmines are probably a big reason why mass mutas don't work as well any more and storm is a big reason why mass marine is not the best choice vs a toss with HT.
Now also be aware of the fact that the AAM works versus EVERY UNIT IN THE GAME and can only be dimished at all by totally spreading your army. Are you being serious? You made ridiculous claims like "20 supply of ravens can kill a 100 supply toss army", but giving examples equally stupid stuff is invalid? If you leave a 100 suppy army stacked like that you're asking to lose it. The same as if you clump up 30 marines against psistorm, or fly a stacked muta army over widow mines. That's why spreading is a thing. You know that 2 vipers or 2 high templar will kill a 100 supply viking army right? But with a good pre split that number is reduced dramatically. It's the same with ravens, I just tried fighting 2000 gas of ravens against 2000 gas of corruptors for example. If you stack the corruptors they all die, but if you spread them out you barely lose any (and I'm not talking seperate each unit, just a simple pre split). And btw mass muta is not often seen nowadays because of thors, and hydras being just being better. Widow mines have been a thing since 2013, they aren't the reason LBM is dead. On March 08 2018 06:10 Freeborn wrote:On March 08 2018 05:57 Fango wrote:On March 08 2018 05:46 Freeborn wrote:
Every terran whining please go and check out the recent youtube videos of the raven obliterating a carrier fleet with zero chance of evasion or counter or escape...
Alternatively go and load up the unit tester and have 10+ (20ish supply) shoot at a stacked 100 (air/ground) supply toss army and see it get almost obliterated instantly.
It's really ridiculous. You can make all kinds of shit happen in a unit tester. 3 widow mines can kill 50 mutas, one high templar can kill 30 marines etc etc. The game should be balanced around the pro level. And currently at the pro level terran is by far the worst race. They haven't made a final in 6 months, Katowice had 2 terran in the ro12, GSL has 1 in the ro8, and WCS also had 1 in the ro8. That's why terrans are whining. Maru's performance at Katowice was the only glimmer of hope and it was enough to get terran nerfed again. Check out the youtube videos then of progamers using them in real games lol... Show me those videos then. From what I can see terran is by far the weakest race currently. Nerfing them even more is just ridiculous. Terran ultra lategame has been weak for years, and now that Maru won a few skyterran games that it apparently suddenly needs nerfing. P and Z players just don't want to adapt to terran actually competing in that area of the game for once. Are you being intentionally dense? To make it clear: Mutas as well as carriers and most air units work best when stacked, in a late game scenario DPS per area is important, you want to do as much damage as possible on every clash (deathball you know?). For that you need only watch any pro game using carriers mutas and even vikings. In the case of parasitic bomb and psistorm most of the damage can be averted if you split after the fact plus they dont stack. And in the case of psistorm the damage is so low that marauders with medivacs can sometimes even stand in it and win fight. Not to mention the fact that AAM is as the name suggests an ANTI ARMOR MISSILE NOT A SEEKER MISSILE which everybody hated. And the anti armor part actually is very strong and last 20 seconds, which equals +3 attack for marines for 2+ engagements on one cast. And since the AOE is huge u don't need more than a max of 3 casts to splash an army. Also: https://clips.twitch.tv/ThoughtfulPunchyFinchBCouchhttps://clips.twitch.tv/SavageHelplessMangoBCWarriorhttps://clips.twitch.tv/NaiveDifficultGoldfishArgieB8https://clips.twitch.tv/SpikyImpartialKuduANELEAnd this one to showcase how small drop can be crazily boosted by the AAM: https://clips.twitch.tv/ImportantLachrymoseClintmullinsCoolStoryBroIf that doesn't convince you, then you are hopeless. Terran may or may not need buffs/changes but the AAM was just a replication of the seeker missile problem: unfun, unbalanced and without weakness or counter. Let's wait and see how terrans use the actual anti armor effect and the interference matrix. We all know terrans are a bit slow to accept changes that are not instantly and obviously overpowered
Wait - so are you saying you can mitigate strong splash damage spells (psistorm/parabomb) by splitting your units?
But its OK that Terran has to do it - because Terran units don't do more DPS when stacked together? LOL
Explain why we've yet to see a Terran win a major tournament since this "broken" spell has been patched?
1 terran in r08 gsl - 2 terran in ro12 - IEM - where you had foreigner zergs in both.
Your entire argument becomes funny though when you start to talk about "unfun and no weakness or counter" really?
No counter says we should have seen Terran win something yet no?
Unfun is a not relevant - pro players deserve a balanced game - that should be the number 1 priority - not placating community morons like you. What fucking units don't "work best when stacked"? Is this some kind of epiphany?
Only Terran has to worry about splitting their units - not Protoss not Zerg? You hear Protoss and Zerg players talk about raising their skill ceiling all the time - giving them more micro opportunities - this is a perfect example and as soon as we see Maru win 2 games with it you all shit your pants.
I'm not saying it is perfect as is -and might eventually require SOME kind of nerf - but it should absolutely not be nerfed into the ground like they are proposing.
How many more "hots widow mine nerfs" are we going to see before blizzard learns - DONT NERF RACES THAT AREN'T OVER-PERFORMING. It has literally always done more harm then good.
User was warned for this post
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On March 08 2018 21:48 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2018 21:12 Freeborn wrote:On March 08 2018 11:18 Fango wrote:On March 08 2018 06:10 Freeborn wrote:
Plus your comparison is not really valid, since 50 mutas still have to fly into the mines and marines have to stand in the storm whereas the AAM has a big range and cant be evaded. Also to be fair widowmines are probably a big reason why mass mutas don't work as well any more and storm is a big reason why mass marine is not the best choice vs a toss with HT.
Now also be aware of the fact that the AAM works versus EVERY UNIT IN THE GAME and can only be dimished at all by totally spreading your army. Are you being serious? You made ridiculous claims like "20 supply of ravens can kill a 100 supply toss army", but giving examples equally stupid stuff is invalid? If you leave a 100 suppy army stacked like that you're asking to lose it. The same as if you clump up 30 marines against psistorm, or fly a stacked muta army over widow mines. That's why spreading is a thing. You know that 2 vipers or 2 high templar will kill a 100 supply viking army right? But with a good pre split that number is reduced dramatically. It's the same with ravens, I just tried fighting 2000 gas of ravens against 2000 gas of corruptors for example. If you stack the corruptors they all die, but if you spread them out you barely lose any (and I'm not talking seperate each unit, just a simple pre split). And btw mass muta is not often seen nowadays because of thors, and hydras being just being better. Widow mines have been a thing since 2013, they aren't the reason LBM is dead. On March 08 2018 06:10 Freeborn wrote:On March 08 2018 05:57 Fango wrote:On March 08 2018 05:46 Freeborn wrote:
Every terran whining please go and check out the recent youtube videos of the raven obliterating a carrier fleet with zero chance of evasion or counter or escape...
Alternatively go and load up the unit tester and have 10+ (20ish supply) shoot at a stacked 100 (air/ground) supply toss army and see it get almost obliterated instantly.
It's really ridiculous. You can make all kinds of shit happen in a unit tester. 3 widow mines can kill 50 mutas, one high templar can kill 30 marines etc etc. The game should be balanced around the pro level. And currently at the pro level terran is by far the worst race. They haven't made a final in 6 months, Katowice had 2 terran in the ro12, GSL has 1 in the ro8, and WCS also had 1 in the ro8. That's why terrans are whining. Maru's performance at Katowice was the only glimmer of hope and it was enough to get terran nerfed again. Check out the youtube videos then of progamers using them in real games lol... Show me those videos then. From what I can see terran is by far the weakest race currently. Nerfing them even more is just ridiculous. Terran ultra lategame has been weak for years, and now that Maru won a few skyterran games that it apparently suddenly needs nerfing. P and Z players just don't want to adapt to terran actually competing in that area of the game for once. Are you being intentionally dense? To make it clear: Mutas as well as carriers and most air units work best when stacked, in a late game scenario DPS per area is important, you want to do as much damage as possible on every clash (deathball you know?). For that you need only watch any pro game using carriers mutas and even vikings. In the case of parasitic bomb and psistorm most of the damage can be averted if you split after the fact plus they dont stack. And in the case of psistorm the damage is so low that marauders with medivacs can sometimes even stand in it and win fight. Not to mention the fact that AAM is as the name suggests an ANTI ARMOR MISSILE NOT A SEEKER MISSILE which everybody hated. And the anti armor part actually is very strong and last 20 seconds, which equals +3 attack for marines for 2+ engagements on one cast. And since the AOE is huge u don't need more than a max of 3 casts to splash an army. Also: https://clips.twitch.tv/ThoughtfulPunchyFinchBCouchhttps://clips.twitch.tv/SavageHelplessMangoBCWarriorhttps://clips.twitch.tv/NaiveDifficultGoldfishArgieB8https://clips.twitch.tv/SpikyImpartialKuduANELEAnd this one to showcase how small drop can be crazily boosted by the AAM: https://clips.twitch.tv/ImportantLachrymoseClintmullinsCoolStoryBroIf that doesn't convince you, then you are hopeless. Terran may or may not need buffs/changes but the AAM was just a replication of the seeker missile problem: unfun, unbalanced and without weakness or counter. Let's wait and see how terrans use the actual anti armor effect and the interference matrix. We all know terrans are a bit slow to accept changes that are not instantly and obviously overpowered Wait - so are you saying you can mitigate strong splash damage spells (psistorm/parabomb) by splitting your units? But its OK that Terran has to do it - because Terran units don't do more DPS when stacked together? LOL Explain why we've yet to see a Terran win a major tournament since this "broken" spell has been patched? 1 terran in r08 gsl - 2 terran in ro12 - IEM - where you had foreigner zergs in both. Your entire argument becomes funny though when you start to talk about "unfun and no weakness or counter" really? No counter says we should have seen Terran win something yet no? Unfun is a not relevant - pro players deserve a balanced game - that should be the number 1 priority - not placating community morons like you. What fucking units don't "work best when stacked"? Is this some kind of epiphany? Only Terran has to worry about splitting their units - not Protoss not Zerg? You hear Protoss and Zerg players talk about raising their skill ceiling all the time - giving them more micro opportunities - this is a perfect example and as soon as we see Maru win 2 games with it you all shit your pants. I'm not saying it is perfect as is -and might eventually require SOME kind of nerf - but it should absolutely not be nerfed into the ground like they are proposing. How many more "hots widow mine nerfs" are we going to see before blizzard learns - DONT NERF RACES THAT AREN'T OVER-PERFORMING. It has literally always done more harm then good.
Splitting carriers and broods is not exactly equal to splitting stimmed MM. Give movement boost to those units and we can talk about splitting. It is similar to people saying protoss needs to micro high templars (and they do not talk ab out the micro with prism)
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On March 08 2018 21:54 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2018 21:48 DomeGetta wrote:On March 08 2018 21:12 Freeborn wrote:On March 08 2018 11:18 Fango wrote:On March 08 2018 06:10 Freeborn wrote:
Plus your comparison is not really valid, since 50 mutas still have to fly into the mines and marines have to stand in the storm whereas the AAM has a big range and cant be evaded. Also to be fair widowmines are probably a big reason why mass mutas don't work as well any more and storm is a big reason why mass marine is not the best choice vs a toss with HT.
Now also be aware of the fact that the AAM works versus EVERY UNIT IN THE GAME and can only be dimished at all by totally spreading your army. Are you being serious? You made ridiculous claims like "20 supply of ravens can kill a 100 supply toss army", but giving examples equally stupid stuff is invalid? If you leave a 100 suppy army stacked like that you're asking to lose it. The same as if you clump up 30 marines against psistorm, or fly a stacked muta army over widow mines. That's why spreading is a thing. You know that 2 vipers or 2 high templar will kill a 100 supply viking army right? But with a good pre split that number is reduced dramatically. It's the same with ravens, I just tried fighting 2000 gas of ravens against 2000 gas of corruptors for example. If you stack the corruptors they all die, but if you spread them out you barely lose any (and I'm not talking seperate each unit, just a simple pre split). And btw mass muta is not often seen nowadays because of thors, and hydras being just being better. Widow mines have been a thing since 2013, they aren't the reason LBM is dead. On March 08 2018 06:10 Freeborn wrote:On March 08 2018 05:57 Fango wrote:On March 08 2018 05:46 Freeborn wrote:
Every terran whining please go and check out the recent youtube videos of the raven obliterating a carrier fleet with zero chance of evasion or counter or escape...
Alternatively go and load up the unit tester and have 10+ (20ish supply) shoot at a stacked 100 (air/ground) supply toss army and see it get almost obliterated instantly.
It's really ridiculous. You can make all kinds of shit happen in a unit tester. 3 widow mines can kill 50 mutas, one high templar can kill 30 marines etc etc. The game should be balanced around the pro level. And currently at the pro level terran is by far the worst race. They haven't made a final in 6 months, Katowice had 2 terran in the ro12, GSL has 1 in the ro8, and WCS also had 1 in the ro8. That's why terrans are whining. Maru's performance at Katowice was the only glimmer of hope and it was enough to get terran nerfed again. Check out the youtube videos then of progamers using them in real games lol... Show me those videos then. From what I can see terran is by far the weakest race currently. Nerfing them even more is just ridiculous. Terran ultra lategame has been weak for years, and now that Maru won a few skyterran games that it apparently suddenly needs nerfing. P and Z players just don't want to adapt to terran actually competing in that area of the game for once. Are you being intentionally dense? To make it clear: Mutas as well as carriers and most air units work best when stacked, in a late game scenario DPS per area is important, you want to do as much damage as possible on every clash (deathball you know?). For that you need only watch any pro game using carriers mutas and even vikings. In the case of parasitic bomb and psistorm most of the damage can be averted if you split after the fact plus they dont stack. And in the case of psistorm the damage is so low that marauders with medivacs can sometimes even stand in it and win fight. Not to mention the fact that AAM is as the name suggests an ANTI ARMOR MISSILE NOT A SEEKER MISSILE which everybody hated. And the anti armor part actually is very strong and last 20 seconds, which equals +3 attack for marines for 2+ engagements on one cast. And since the AOE is huge u don't need more than a max of 3 casts to splash an army. Also: https://clips.twitch.tv/ThoughtfulPunchyFinchBCouchhttps://clips.twitch.tv/SavageHelplessMangoBCWarriorhttps://clips.twitch.tv/NaiveDifficultGoldfishArgieB8https://clips.twitch.tv/SpikyImpartialKuduANELEAnd this one to showcase how small drop can be crazily boosted by the AAM: https://clips.twitch.tv/ImportantLachrymoseClintmullinsCoolStoryBroIf that doesn't convince you, then you are hopeless. Terran may or may not need buffs/changes but the AAM was just a replication of the seeker missile problem: unfun, unbalanced and without weakness or counter. Let's wait and see how terrans use the actual anti armor effect and the interference matrix. We all know terrans are a bit slow to accept changes that are not instantly and obviously overpowered Wait - so are you saying you can mitigate strong splash damage spells (psistorm/parabomb) by splitting your units? But its OK that Terran has to do it - because Terran units don't do more DPS when stacked together? LOL Explain why we've yet to see a Terran win a major tournament since this "broken" spell has been patched? 1 terran in r08 gsl - 2 terran in ro12 - IEM - where you had foreigner zergs in both. Your entire argument becomes funny though when you start to talk about "unfun and no weakness or counter" really? No counter says we should have seen Terran win something yet no? Unfun is a not relevant - pro players deserve a balanced game - that should be the number 1 priority - not placating community morons like you. What fucking units don't "work best when stacked"? Is this some kind of epiphany? Only Terran has to worry about splitting their units - not Protoss not Zerg? You hear Protoss and Zerg players talk about raising their skill ceiling all the time - giving them more micro opportunities - this is a perfect example and as soon as we see Maru win 2 games with it you all shit your pants. I'm not saying it is perfect as is -and might eventually require SOME kind of nerf - but it should absolutely not be nerfed into the ground like they are proposing. How many more "hots widow mine nerfs" are we going to see before blizzard learns - DONT NERF RACES THAT AREN'T OVER-PERFORMING. It has literally always done more harm then good. Splitting carriers and broods is not exactly equal to splitting stimmed MM. Give movement boost to those units and we can talk about splitting. It is similar to people saying protoss needs to micro high templars (and they do not talk ab out the micro with prism)
Yah I didn't say anything about MM - unless you are planning to beat BL/infestor/viper with MM - then good luck.
Ghosts / Liberators/ Tanks / Vikings and a small about of MM (and apparently not fucking ravens anymore) are whats in your army fighting that comp.
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Am i the only one who put design over anything else??? I understand terran's struggle but FFS! Keeping the current ravens will leave no room to buff other and what you guys terran players need to bitch about is fucking vikings buff not the raven! Force blizzard be more aggressive with terran favtory units!
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On March 07 2018 21:45 JackONeill wrote:
I would actually have been in favor of increasing the cost of the missile back to 125 but leaving it as it is.
it would be hard to use it when you have only few ravens
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On March 08 2018 22:36 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2018 21:45 JackONeill wrote:
I would actually have been in favor of increasing the cost of the missile back to 125 but leaving it as it is. it would be hard to use it when you have only few ravens
WASN'T THE REASON WHY NO ONE USES AAM IN BEFORE IS BECAUSE OF IT'S ENERGY COST???
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On March 08 2018 21:54 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2018 21:48 DomeGetta wrote:On March 08 2018 21:12 Freeborn wrote:On March 08 2018 11:18 Fango wrote:On March 08 2018 06:10 Freeborn wrote:
Plus your comparison is not really valid, since 50 mutas still have to fly into the mines and marines have to stand in the storm whereas the AAM has a big range and cant be evaded. Also to be fair widowmines are probably a big reason why mass mutas don't work as well any more and storm is a big reason why mass marine is not the best choice vs a toss with HT.
Now also be aware of the fact that the AAM works versus EVERY UNIT IN THE GAME and can only be dimished at all by totally spreading your army. Are you being serious? You made ridiculous claims like "20 supply of ravens can kill a 100 supply toss army", but giving examples equally stupid stuff is invalid? If you leave a 100 suppy army stacked like that you're asking to lose it. The same as if you clump up 30 marines against psistorm, or fly a stacked muta army over widow mines. That's why spreading is a thing. You know that 2 vipers or 2 high templar will kill a 100 supply viking army right? But with a good pre split that number is reduced dramatically. It's the same with ravens, I just tried fighting 2000 gas of ravens against 2000 gas of corruptors for example. If you stack the corruptors they all die, but if you spread them out you barely lose any (and I'm not talking seperate each unit, just a simple pre split). And btw mass muta is not often seen nowadays because of thors, and hydras being just being better. Widow mines have been a thing since 2013, they aren't the reason LBM is dead. On March 08 2018 06:10 Freeborn wrote:On March 08 2018 05:57 Fango wrote:On March 08 2018 05:46 Freeborn wrote:
Every terran whining please go and check out the recent youtube videos of the raven obliterating a carrier fleet with zero chance of evasion or counter or escape...
Alternatively go and load up the unit tester and have 10+ (20ish supply) shoot at a stacked 100 (air/ground) supply toss army and see it get almost obliterated instantly.
It's really ridiculous. You can make all kinds of shit happen in a unit tester. 3 widow mines can kill 50 mutas, one high templar can kill 30 marines etc etc. The game should be balanced around the pro level. And currently at the pro level terran is by far the worst race. They haven't made a final in 6 months, Katowice had 2 terran in the ro12, GSL has 1 in the ro8, and WCS also had 1 in the ro8. That's why terrans are whining. Maru's performance at Katowice was the only glimmer of hope and it was enough to get terran nerfed again. Check out the youtube videos then of progamers using them in real games lol... Show me those videos then. From what I can see terran is by far the weakest race currently. Nerfing them even more is just ridiculous. Terran ultra lategame has been weak for years, and now that Maru won a few skyterran games that it apparently suddenly needs nerfing. P and Z players just don't want to adapt to terran actually competing in that area of the game for once. Are you being intentionally dense? To make it clear: Mutas as well as carriers and most air units work best when stacked, in a late game scenario DPS per area is important, you want to do as much damage as possible on every clash (deathball you know?). For that you need only watch any pro game using carriers mutas and even vikings. In the case of parasitic bomb and psistorm most of the damage can be averted if you split after the fact plus they dont stack. And in the case of psistorm the damage is so low that marauders with medivacs can sometimes even stand in it and win fight. Not to mention the fact that AAM is as the name suggests an ANTI ARMOR MISSILE NOT A SEEKER MISSILE which everybody hated. And the anti armor part actually is very strong and last 20 seconds, which equals +3 attack for marines for 2+ engagements on one cast. And since the AOE is huge u don't need more than a max of 3 casts to splash an army. Also: https://clips.twitch.tv/ThoughtfulPunchyFinchBCouchhttps://clips.twitch.tv/SavageHelplessMangoBCWarriorhttps://clips.twitch.tv/NaiveDifficultGoldfishArgieB8https://clips.twitch.tv/SpikyImpartialKuduANELEAnd this one to showcase how small drop can be crazily boosted by the AAM: https://clips.twitch.tv/ImportantLachrymoseClintmullinsCoolStoryBroIf that doesn't convince you, then you are hopeless. Terran may or may not need buffs/changes but the AAM was just a replication of the seeker missile problem: unfun, unbalanced and without weakness or counter. Let's wait and see how terrans use the actual anti armor effect and the interference matrix. We all know terrans are a bit slow to accept changes that are not instantly and obviously overpowered Wait - so are you saying you can mitigate strong splash damage spells (psistorm/parabomb) by splitting your units? But its OK that Terran has to do it - because Terran units don't do more DPS when stacked together? LOL Explain why we've yet to see a Terran win a major tournament since this "broken" spell has been patched? 1 terran in r08 gsl - 2 terran in ro12 - IEM - where you had foreigner zergs in both. Your entire argument becomes funny though when you start to talk about "unfun and no weakness or counter" really? No counter says we should have seen Terran win something yet no? Unfun is a not relevant - pro players deserve a balanced game - that should be the number 1 priority - not placating community morons like you. What fucking units don't "work best when stacked"? Is this some kind of epiphany? Only Terran has to worry about splitting their units - not Protoss not Zerg? You hear Protoss and Zerg players talk about raising their skill ceiling all the time - giving them more micro opportunities - this is a perfect example and as soon as we see Maru win 2 games with it you all shit your pants. I'm not saying it is perfect as is -and might eventually require SOME kind of nerf - but it should absolutely not be nerfed into the ground like they are proposing. How many more "hots widow mine nerfs" are we going to see before blizzard learns - DONT NERF RACES THAT AREN'T OVER-PERFORMING. It has literally always done more harm then good. Splitting carriers and broods is not exactly equal to splitting stimmed MM. Give movement boost to those units and we can talk about splitting. It is similar to people saying protoss needs to micro high templars (and they do not talk ab out the micro with prism)
Considering their ridiculous pick-up range what‘s so tough about microing Warp Prisms again?
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On March 08 2018 22:34 seemsgood wrote:
Am i the only one who put design over anything else??? I understand terran's struggle but FFS! Keeping the current ravens will leave no room to buff other and what you guys terran players need to bitch about is fucking vikings buff not the raven! Force blizzard be more aggressive with terran favtory units!
This. Ask for a bigger viking buff, ask for cheaper Ravens or a cheaper missile, but the one thing you shouldn't ask for is to keep the damage the same because it isn't going to happen no matter how much you whine.
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Said it in the game thread and saying it again. Maru played a cancerous build this tournament. It was only because he's a fan favourite that people are still arguing for him. You can argue Terrans need balance work all you want but Raven was something that obviously deserves to be nuked, and it has nothing to do with balance. Maru lost his chance to become a patch terran, and I'm glad he did. He will still be my second favourite terran to watch only behind TY though.
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On March 08 2018 21:12 Freeborn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2018 11:18 Fango wrote:On March 08 2018 06:10 Freeborn wrote:
Plus your comparison is not really valid, since 50 mutas still have to fly into the mines and marines have to stand in the storm whereas the AAM has a big range and cant be evaded. Also to be fair widowmines are probably a big reason why mass mutas don't work as well any more and storm is a big reason why mass marine is not the best choice vs a toss with HT.
Now also be aware of the fact that the AAM works versus EVERY UNIT IN THE GAME and can only be dimished at all by totally spreading your army. Are you being serious? You made ridiculous claims like "20 supply of ravens can kill a 100 supply toss army", but giving examples equally stupid stuff is invalid? If you leave a 100 suppy army stacked like that you're asking to lose it. The same as if you clump up 30 marines against psistorm, or fly a stacked muta army over widow mines. That's why spreading is a thing. You know that 2 vipers or 2 high templar will kill a 100 supply viking army right? But with a good pre split that number is reduced dramatically. It's the same with ravens, I just tried fighting 2000 gas of ravens against 2000 gas of corruptors for example. If you stack the corruptors they all die, but if you spread them out you barely lose any (and I'm not talking seperate each unit, just a simple pre split). And btw mass muta is not often seen nowadays because of thors, and hydras being just being better. Widow mines have been a thing since 2013, they aren't the reason LBM is dead. On March 08 2018 06:10 Freeborn wrote:On March 08 2018 05:57 Fango wrote:On March 08 2018 05:46 Freeborn wrote:
Every terran whining please go and check out the recent youtube videos of the raven obliterating a carrier fleet with zero chance of evasion or counter or escape...
Alternatively go and load up the unit tester and have 10+ (20ish supply) shoot at a stacked 100 (air/ground) supply toss army and see it get almost obliterated instantly.
It's really ridiculous. You can make all kinds of shit happen in a unit tester. 3 widow mines can kill 50 mutas, one high templar can kill 30 marines etc etc. The game should be balanced around the pro level. And currently at the pro level terran is by far the worst race. They haven't made a final in 6 months, Katowice had 2 terran in the ro12, GSL has 1 in the ro8, and WCS also had 1 in the ro8. That's why terrans are whining. Maru's performance at Katowice was the only glimmer of hope and it was enough to get terran nerfed again. Check out the youtube videos then of progamers using them in real games lol... Show me those videos then. From what I can see terran is by far the weakest race currently. Nerfing them even more is just ridiculous. Terran ultra lategame has been weak for years, and now that Maru won a few skyterran games that it apparently suddenly needs nerfing. P and Z players just don't want to adapt to terran actually competing in that area of the game for once. Are you being intentionally dense? To make it clear: Mutas as well as carriers and most air units work best when stacked, in a late game scenario DPS per area is important, you want to do as much damage as possible on every clash (deathball you know?). For that you need only watch any pro game using carriers mutas and even vikings. In the case of parasitic bomb and psistorm most of the damage can be averted if you split after the fact plus they dont stack. And in the case of psistorm the damage is so low that marauders with medivacs can sometimes even stand in it and win fight. Not to mention the fact that AAM is as the name suggests an ANTI ARMOR MISSILE NOT A SEEKER MISSILE which everybody hated. And the anti armor part actually is very strong and last 20 seconds, which equals +3 attack for marines for 2+ engagements on one cast. And since the AOE is huge u don't need more than a max of 3 casts to splash an army. Also: https://clips.twitch.tv/ThoughtfulPunchyFinchBCouchhttps://clips.twitch.tv/SavageHelplessMangoBCWarriorhttps://clips.twitch.tv/NaiveDifficultGoldfishArgieB8https://clips.twitch.tv/SpikyImpartialKuduANELEAnd this one to showcase how small drop can be crazily boosted by the AAM: https://clips.twitch.tv/ImportantLachrymoseClintmullinsCoolStoryBroIf that doesn't convince you, then you are hopeless. Terran may or may not need buffs/changes but the AAM was just a replication of the seeker missile problem: unfun, unbalanced and without weakness or counter. Let's wait and see how terrans use the actual anti armor effect and the interference matrix. We all know terrans are a bit slow to accept changes that are not instantly and obviously overpowered
Holy shit the double standards are ridiculous. So vikings and terran units are fine against aoe because you should just split? But protoss and zerg shouldn't have to do the same?
I cannot believe you're showing clips of players stacking literally thousands of resources worth of units on top of eachother then complaining that they die. None of those fights would have ended that way had the players just spread their units out and managed the engagements property. Yet if a skyterran army clumped up like that and died to a couple fungals/parasitic bombs you'd just tell them to split....
Now you say that they have to clump up units to maximise dps? The trade off is that stacking makes them more vulnerable to aoe spells. This is something terran has been dealing with since forever. Like I said before, go load up your precious unit tester and see for yourself. When I tried it, 2000 gas worth of ravens can't kill 2000 gas of corruptors or carriers if they pre-split. The same way 2 vipers cannot kill 20 vikings if they're spread out.
Apparently protoss and Zerg players are just too used to the lategame being an autowin that they don't want to learn how to fight there. They'd rather complain about the objectively weakest race in the game actually having a chance there for once. You can dislike the AAM from a design perspective, but calling it imbalanced is outright stupid. Terran is the worst performing race in tournaments right now by a significant margin. If terran was imba there would be more than one player getting results.
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I agree that the Raven needed a change, but I think the frustration I'm seeing from some of the Terrans is because almost everything that used to feel powerful for Terran does not feel that way anymore.
- MMM has dramatically weakened by the loss of the widow mine and ling bane hydra strength as well as zealot legs and mass Immortal/various protoss buffs
- Vikings were the real casualty of the buff to both Carrier and Corrupter in order to deal with the Carrier
- Reaper grenade nerf, while needed for Byun, took out the only viable rush build
We are left with I would say 2 units that feel powerful for Terran when you get them where you want: Tanks and Liberators, and these are units that have clear and powerful counters. If they are not stopped before they can get set up properly and with their proper support, they are still powerful.
It does not work this way for other races. Immortals are a great unit to have in all circumstances until mega-late game. Ultralisks crash through lines with their support. Speedlings are useful at every stage of a game for Zerg, and they can kill their Terran "counter", the Hellion, at many stages of the game.
Vipers, High Templars, Dark Templar, Hydras, Nydus, the Warp Prism. Having played as the other races, these units feel powerful because they can take control of the game.
I am all for a change besides the Raven that will give Terran options, but my hope is for something more than a 10 HP VIking buff.
1. Show me Blue Flame Hellbats that can hold their own against chargelots.
2. How about Vikings that can take down other air units. (What are Vikings good against?)
3. Give me a reason to make a Cyclone after the five minute mark. (Late game speed buff?)
4. Give me a use for the widow mine.
5. What does the Marauder excel against?
There are a lot of places that could be tweaked for Terran, I hope these are some areas that might be considered.
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@Blizzard Your technical support team suspended my b.net support forum account citing "harassment" because i've been inquiring on the forums for 4 MONTHS about a bug on YOUR end for this game that has been neglected to get fixed. This is incredibly unethical and abuse of power. This is the absolute worst consumer experience i've ever had in the 32 years i've been on this planet.
Bug=Green selection box when selecting units and builds doesn't appear. I cannot tell what units i've selected unless I look all the way at the bottom of the screen in the black rectangle box. This makes playing the game incredibly hard. Do you have any idea how hard it is to micro like this? Do you have any idea how hard it is to select/group units late game and confidently know you've selected it? This is ruining my gameplay experience. I'm not a free to play player either. I bought all 3 games. I paid the almost 200 USD for everything. As a paying customer, I have an expectation to have issues fixed within a reasonable amount of time. 4 months is absurd not to mention the unethical suspension of my b.net support forum account.
I'm getting to the point where you will lose my loyalty as a customer and this whole thing makes me want to work against your company. Until this is escalated to a C-level executive and the problem is fixed, i'm going to spread the word on various social media outlets that no one should buy or play blizzard games because at this point i'd rather see you guys lose money/customers due to the way I was treated. What you've done is turn one of your most loyal customers(since the days of d1) into someone who wants to watch you guys lose money and burn. Blizzard has made my gameplay AND technical/bug/customer support experience extremely unenjoyable. I'm very unhappy.
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On March 08 2018 21:12 Freeborn wrote:
And in the case of psistorm the damage is so low
too obvious bait
Only can be a toss hater trolling, no ?
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On March 08 2018 23:36 Fango wrote:
Yet if a skyterran army clumped up like that and died to a couple fungals/parasitic bombs you'd just tell them to split....
Remember MVP vs Squirtle 2012 GSL Season 2 Finale map 5
Strangely, at times, an unprepared toss obliterating a 3xtimes superior max out capital stacked ship army in seconds didn't call for an immediate nerf. (well, archon toilet was the only late game hope vs BL/infestor at time )
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On March 09 2018 01:07 xongnox wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2018 23:36 Fango wrote:
Yet if a skyterran army clumped up like that and died to a couple fungals/parasitic bombs you'd just tell them to split....
Remember MVP vs Squirtle 2012 GSL Season 2 Finale map 5Strangely, at times, an unprepared toss obliterating a 3xtimes superior max out capital stacked ship army in seconds didn't call for an immediate nerf. (well, archon toilet was the only late game hope vs BL/infestor at time )
You picked the perfect moment for bringing it up:
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I feel like people confuses splitting reactivity (once the storm hits or the banes comes, for example) and pre-spreading an army before taking engagement. Pre-spreading can be made and is made with very slow units like BL, or even siege tanks ! (vs viper blinding cloud).
Personally i feel like this raven iteration was a bad design, but i feel like all mass-air clumped deathball are terrible in SC2, badly designed, frustrating to play with, to play versus, and generally way too powerfull. The abusive clustering of air units is he main part of the issue.
This could have been fixed easily in design-patch by adding an air-collision radius (so we can still have clustered mutas and phoenixes with 0 radius but not BL or carriers )
This is a know issue and critique for years, yet blizzard do nothing to it. And then to counter bad design choice effects they make another bad design units/mechanism, and so on...
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On March 09 2018 01:35 xongnox wrote:
I feel like people confuses splitting reactivity (once the storm hits or the banes comes, for example) and pre-spreading an army before taking engagement. Pre-spreading can be made and is made with very slow units like BL, or even siege tanks ! (vs viper blinding cloud).
Personally i feel like this raven iteration was a bad design, but i feel like all mass-air clumped deathball are terrible in SC2, badly designed, frustrating to play with, to play versus, and generally way too powerfull. The abusive clustering of air units is he main part of the issue.
This could have been fixed easily in design-patch by adding an air-collision radius (so we can still have clustered mutas and phoenixes with 0 radius but not BL or carriers )
This is a know issue and critique for years, yet blizzard do nothing to it. And then to counter bad design choice effects they make another bad design units/mechanism, and so on...
And every time there was something in the game or the balance test map that could deal with mass air deathballs, it either never made it or was removed from the game.
Lib anti-air? Removed from the game.
Seeker missile? Removed from the game.
Thor splash attack full damage vs all? Never made it out of the test map.
AAM? Removed from the game.
Activision wants toss and zerg to have unstoppable lategames vs terran in order to force 'action packed' games. It sounds like a stupid conspiracy theory but every community update, every patch, reinforces it.
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On March 08 2018 23:36 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2018 21:12 Freeborn wrote:On March 08 2018 11:18 Fango wrote:On March 08 2018 06:10 Freeborn wrote:
Plus your comparison is not really valid, since 50 mutas still have to fly into the mines and marines have to stand in the storm whereas the AAM has a big range and cant be evaded. Also to be fair widowmines are probably a big reason why mass mutas don't work as well any more and storm is a big reason why mass marine is not the best choice vs a toss with HT.
Now also be aware of the fact that the AAM works versus EVERY UNIT IN THE GAME and can only be dimished at all by totally spreading your army. Are you being serious? You made ridiculous claims like "20 supply of ravens can kill a 100 supply toss army", but giving examples equally stupid stuff is invalid? If you leave a 100 suppy army stacked like that you're asking to lose it. The same as if you clump up 30 marines against psistorm, or fly a stacked muta army over widow mines. That's why spreading is a thing. You know that 2 vipers or 2 high templar will kill a 100 supply viking army right? But with a good pre split that number is reduced dramatically. It's the same with ravens, I just tried fighting 2000 gas of ravens against 2000 gas of corruptors for example. If you stack the corruptors they all die, but if you spread them out you barely lose any (and I'm not talking seperate each unit, just a simple pre split). And btw mass muta is not often seen nowadays because of thors, and hydras being just being better. Widow mines have been a thing since 2013, they aren't the reason LBM is dead. On March 08 2018 06:10 Freeborn wrote:On March 08 2018 05:57 Fango wrote:On March 08 2018 05:46 Freeborn wrote:
Every terran whining please go and check out the recent youtube videos of the raven obliterating a carrier fleet with zero chance of evasion or counter or escape...
Alternatively go and load up the unit tester and have 10+ (20ish supply) shoot at a stacked 100 (air/ground) supply toss army and see it get almost obliterated instantly.
It's really ridiculous. You can make all kinds of shit happen in a unit tester. 3 widow mines can kill 50 mutas, one high templar can kill 30 marines etc etc. The game should be balanced around the pro level. And currently at the pro level terran is by far the worst race. They haven't made a final in 6 months, Katowice had 2 terran in the ro12, GSL has 1 in the ro8, and WCS also had 1 in the ro8. That's why terrans are whining. Maru's performance at Katowice was the only glimmer of hope and it was enough to get terran nerfed again. Check out the youtube videos then of progamers using them in real games lol... Show me those videos then. From what I can see terran is by far the weakest race currently. Nerfing them even more is just ridiculous. Terran ultra lategame has been weak for years, and now that Maru won a few skyterran games that it apparently suddenly needs nerfing. P and Z players just don't want to adapt to terran actually competing in that area of the game for once. Are you being intentionally dense? To make it clear: Mutas as well as carriers and most air units work best when stacked, in a late game scenario DPS per area is important, you want to do as much damage as possible on every clash (deathball you know?). For that you need only watch any pro game using carriers mutas and even vikings. In the case of parasitic bomb and psistorm most of the damage can be averted if you split after the fact plus they dont stack. And in the case of psistorm the damage is so low that marauders with medivacs can sometimes even stand in it and win fight. Not to mention the fact that AAM is as the name suggests an ANTI ARMOR MISSILE NOT A SEEKER MISSILE which everybody hated. And the anti armor part actually is very strong and last 20 seconds, which equals +3 attack for marines for 2+ engagements on one cast. And since the AOE is huge u don't need more than a max of 3 casts to splash an army. Also: https://clips.twitch.tv/ThoughtfulPunchyFinchBCouchhttps://clips.twitch.tv/SavageHelplessMangoBCWarriorhttps://clips.twitch.tv/NaiveDifficultGoldfishArgieB8https://clips.twitch.tv/SpikyImpartialKuduANELEAnd this one to showcase how small drop can be crazily boosted by the AAM: https://clips.twitch.tv/ImportantLachrymoseClintmullinsCoolStoryBroIf that doesn't convince you, then you are hopeless. Terran may or may not need buffs/changes but the AAM was just a replication of the seeker missile problem: unfun, unbalanced and without weakness or counter. Let's wait and see how terrans use the actual anti armor effect and the interference matrix. We all know terrans are a bit slow to accept changes that are not instantly and obviously overpowered Holy shit the double standards are ridiculous. So vikings and terran units are fine against aoe because you should just split? But protoss and zerg shouldn't have to do the same? I cannot believe you're showing clips of players stacking literally thousands of resources worth of units on top of eachother then complaining that they die. None of those fights would have ended that way had the players just spread their units out and managed the engagements property. Yet if a skyterran army clumped up like that and died to a couple fungals/parasitic bombs you'd just tell them to split.... Now you say that they have to clump up units to maximise dps? The trade off is that stacking makes them more vulnerable to aoe spells. This is something terran has been dealing with since forever. Like I said before, go load up your precious unit tester and see for yourself. When I tried it, 2000 gas worth of ravens can't kill 2000 gas of corruptors or carriers if they pre-split. The same way 2 vipers cannot kill 20 vikings if they're spread out. Apparently protoss and Zerg players are just too used to the lategame being an autowin that they don't want to learn how to fight there. They'd rather complain about the objectively weakest race in the game actually having a chance there for once. You can dislike the AAM from a design perspective, but calling it imbalanced is outright stupid. Terran is the worst performing race in tournaments right now by a significant margin. If terran was imba there would be more than one player getting results.
How are you even going to pre split an air army of broods and carriers? Yes you can pre split it and leave it there, then when you actually decide to move it clumps up again. Free strategy tip: don't attack if it's pre split and wait.
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On March 08 2018 21:58 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2018 21:54 deacon.frost wrote:On March 08 2018 21:48 DomeGetta wrote:On March 08 2018 21:12 Freeborn wrote:On March 08 2018 11:18 Fango wrote:On March 08 2018 06:10 Freeborn wrote:
Plus your comparison is not really valid, since 50 mutas still have to fly into the mines and marines have to stand in the storm whereas the AAM has a big range and cant be evaded. Also to be fair widowmines are probably a big reason why mass mutas don't work as well any more and storm is a big reason why mass marine is not the best choice vs a toss with HT.
Now also be aware of the fact that the AAM works versus EVERY UNIT IN THE GAME and can only be dimished at all by totally spreading your army. Are you being serious? You made ridiculous claims like "20 supply of ravens can kill a 100 supply toss army", but giving examples equally stupid stuff is invalid? If you leave a 100 suppy army stacked like that you're asking to lose it. The same as if you clump up 30 marines against psistorm, or fly a stacked muta army over widow mines. That's why spreading is a thing. You know that 2 vipers or 2 high templar will kill a 100 supply viking army right? But with a good pre split that number is reduced dramatically. It's the same with ravens, I just tried fighting 2000 gas of ravens against 2000 gas of corruptors for example. If you stack the corruptors they all die, but if you spread them out you barely lose any (and I'm not talking seperate each unit, just a simple pre split). And btw mass muta is not often seen nowadays because of thors, and hydras being just being better. Widow mines have been a thing since 2013, they aren't the reason LBM is dead. On March 08 2018 06:10 Freeborn wrote:On March 08 2018 05:57 Fango wrote:On March 08 2018 05:46 Freeborn wrote:
Every terran whining please go and check out the recent youtube videos of the raven obliterating a carrier fleet with zero chance of evasion or counter or escape...
Alternatively go and load up the unit tester and have 10+ (20ish supply) shoot at a stacked 100 (air/ground) supply toss army and see it get almost obliterated instantly.
It's really ridiculous. You can make all kinds of shit happen in a unit tester. 3 widow mines can kill 50 mutas, one high templar can kill 30 marines etc etc. The game should be balanced around the pro level. And currently at the pro level terran is by far the worst race. They haven't made a final in 6 months, Katowice had 2 terran in the ro12, GSL has 1 in the ro8, and WCS also had 1 in the ro8. That's why terrans are whining. Maru's performance at Katowice was the only glimmer of hope and it was enough to get terran nerfed again. Check out the youtube videos then of progamers using them in real games lol... Show me those videos then. From what I can see terran is by far the weakest race currently. Nerfing them even more is just ridiculous. Terran ultra lategame has been weak for years, and now that Maru won a few skyterran games that it apparently suddenly needs nerfing. P and Z players just don't want to adapt to terran actually competing in that area of the game for once. Are you being intentionally dense? To make it clear: Mutas as well as carriers and most air units work best when stacked, in a late game scenario DPS per area is important, you want to do as much damage as possible on every clash (deathball you know?). For that you need only watch any pro game using carriers mutas and even vikings. In the case of parasitic bomb and psistorm most of the damage can be averted if you split after the fact plus they dont stack. And in the case of psistorm the damage is so low that marauders with medivacs can sometimes even stand in it and win fight. Not to mention the fact that AAM is as the name suggests an ANTI ARMOR MISSILE NOT A SEEKER MISSILE which everybody hated. And the anti armor part actually is very strong and last 20 seconds, which equals +3 attack for marines for 2+ engagements on one cast. And since the AOE is huge u don't need more than a max of 3 casts to splash an army. Also: https://clips.twitch.tv/ThoughtfulPunchyFinchBCouchhttps://clips.twitch.tv/SavageHelplessMangoBCWarriorhttps://clips.twitch.tv/NaiveDifficultGoldfishArgieB8https://clips.twitch.tv/SpikyImpartialKuduANELEAnd this one to showcase how small drop can be crazily boosted by the AAM: https://clips.twitch.tv/ImportantLachrymoseClintmullinsCoolStoryBroIf that doesn't convince you, then you are hopeless. Terran may or may not need buffs/changes but the AAM was just a replication of the seeker missile problem: unfun, unbalanced and without weakness or counter. Let's wait and see how terrans use the actual anti armor effect and the interference matrix. We all know terrans are a bit slow to accept changes that are not instantly and obviously overpowered Wait - so are you saying you can mitigate strong splash damage spells (psistorm/parabomb) by splitting your units? But its OK that Terran has to do it - because Terran units don't do more DPS when stacked together? LOL Explain why we've yet to see a Terran win a major tournament since this "broken" spell has been patched? 1 terran in r08 gsl - 2 terran in ro12 - IEM - where you had foreigner zergs in both. Your entire argument becomes funny though when you start to talk about "unfun and no weakness or counter" really? No counter says we should have seen Terran win something yet no? Unfun is a not relevant - pro players deserve a balanced game - that should be the number 1 priority - not placating community morons like you. What fucking units don't "work best when stacked"? Is this some kind of epiphany? Only Terran has to worry about splitting their units - not Protoss not Zerg? You hear Protoss and Zerg players talk about raising their skill ceiling all the time - giving them more micro opportunities - this is a perfect example and as soon as we see Maru win 2 games with it you all shit your pants. I'm not saying it is perfect as is -and might eventually require SOME kind of nerf - but it should absolutely not be nerfed into the ground like they are proposing. How many more "hots widow mine nerfs" are we going to see before blizzard learns - DONT NERF RACES THAT AREN'T OVER-PERFORMING. It has literally always done more harm then good. Splitting carriers and broods is not exactly equal to splitting stimmed MM. Give movement boost to those units and we can talk about splitting. It is similar to people saying protoss needs to micro high templars (and they do not talk ab out the micro with prism) Yah I didn't say anything about MM - unless you are planning to beat BL/infestor/viper with MM - then good luck. Ghosts / Liberators/ Tanks / Vikings and a small about of MM (and apparently not fucking ravens anymore) are whats in your army fighting that comp.
The fuck are you writing about? I am talking about SPLITTING! And when Terrans usually split it is bio against storm or banes. Or vikings against zerg. That is not exactly comparable to broods or carriers with their movement speed and mostly - AAM hits much faster than anything mentioned above.
On March 08 2018 22:47 Creager wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2018 21:54 deacon.frost wrote:On March 08 2018 21:48 DomeGetta wrote:On March 08 2018 21:12 Freeborn wrote:On March 08 2018 11:18 Fango wrote:On March 08 2018 06:10 Freeborn wrote:
Plus your comparison is not really valid, since 50 mutas still have to fly into the mines and marines have to stand in the storm whereas the AAM has a big range and cant be evaded. Also to be fair widowmines are probably a big reason why mass mutas don't work as well any more and storm is a big reason why mass marine is not the best choice vs a toss with HT.
Now also be aware of the fact that the AAM works versus EVERY UNIT IN THE GAME and can only be dimished at all by totally spreading your army. Are you being serious? You made ridiculous claims like "20 supply of ravens can kill a 100 supply toss army", but giving examples equally stupid stuff is invalid? If you leave a 100 suppy army stacked like that you're asking to lose it. The same as if you clump up 30 marines against psistorm, or fly a stacked muta army over widow mines. That's why spreading is a thing. You know that 2 vipers or 2 high templar will kill a 100 supply viking army right? But with a good pre split that number is reduced dramatically. It's the same with ravens, I just tried fighting 2000 gas of ravens against 2000 gas of corruptors for example. If you stack the corruptors they all die, but if you spread them out you barely lose any (and I'm not talking seperate each unit, just a simple pre split). And btw mass muta is not often seen nowadays because of thors, and hydras being just being better. Widow mines have been a thing since 2013, they aren't the reason LBM is dead. On March 08 2018 06:10 Freeborn wrote:On March 08 2018 05:57 Fango wrote:On March 08 2018 05:46 Freeborn wrote:
Every terran whining please go and check out the recent youtube videos of the raven obliterating a carrier fleet with zero chance of evasion or counter or escape...
Alternatively go and load up the unit tester and have 10+ (20ish supply) shoot at a stacked 100 (air/ground) supply toss army and see it get almost obliterated instantly.
It's really ridiculous. You can make all kinds of shit happen in a unit tester. 3 widow mines can kill 50 mutas, one high templar can kill 30 marines etc etc. The game should be balanced around the pro level. And currently at the pro level terran is by far the worst race. They haven't made a final in 6 months, Katowice had 2 terran in the ro12, GSL has 1 in the ro8, and WCS also had 1 in the ro8. That's why terrans are whining. Maru's performance at Katowice was the only glimmer of hope and it was enough to get terran nerfed again. Check out the youtube videos then of progamers using them in real games lol... Show me those videos then. From what I can see terran is by far the weakest race currently. Nerfing them even more is just ridiculous. Terran ultra lategame has been weak for years, and now that Maru won a few skyterran games that it apparently suddenly needs nerfing. P and Z players just don't want to adapt to terran actually competing in that area of the game for once. Are you being intentionally dense? To make it clear: Mutas as well as carriers and most air units work best when stacked, in a late game scenario DPS per area is important, you want to do as much damage as possible on every clash (deathball you know?). For that you need only watch any pro game using carriers mutas and even vikings. In the case of parasitic bomb and psistorm most of the damage can be averted if you split after the fact plus they dont stack. And in the case of psistorm the damage is so low that marauders with medivacs can sometimes even stand in it and win fight. Not to mention the fact that AAM is as the name suggests an ANTI ARMOR MISSILE NOT A SEEKER MISSILE which everybody hated. And the anti armor part actually is very strong and last 20 seconds, which equals +3 attack for marines for 2+ engagements on one cast. And since the AOE is huge u don't need more than a max of 3 casts to splash an army. Also: https://clips.twitch.tv/ThoughtfulPunchyFinchBCouchhttps://clips.twitch.tv/SavageHelplessMangoBCWarriorhttps://clips.twitch.tv/NaiveDifficultGoldfishArgieB8https://clips.twitch.tv/SpikyImpartialKuduANELEAnd this one to showcase how small drop can be crazily boosted by the AAM: https://clips.twitch.tv/ImportantLachrymoseClintmullinsCoolStoryBroIf that doesn't convince you, then you are hopeless. Terran may or may not need buffs/changes but the AAM was just a replication of the seeker missile problem: unfun, unbalanced and without weakness or counter. Let's wait and see how terrans use the actual anti armor effect and the interference matrix. We all know terrans are a bit slow to accept changes that are not instantly and obviously overpowered Wait - so are you saying you can mitigate strong splash damage spells (psistorm/parabomb) by splitting your units? But its OK that Terran has to do it - because Terran units don't do more DPS when stacked together? LOL Explain why we've yet to see a Terran win a major tournament since this "broken" spell has been patched? 1 terran in r08 gsl - 2 terran in ro12 - IEM - where you had foreigner zergs in both. Your entire argument becomes funny though when you start to talk about "unfun and no weakness or counter" really? No counter says we should have seen Terran win something yet no? Unfun is a not relevant - pro players deserve a balanced game - that should be the number 1 priority - not placating community morons like you. What fucking units don't "work best when stacked"? Is this some kind of epiphany? Only Terran has to worry about splitting their units - not Protoss not Zerg? You hear Protoss and Zerg players talk about raising their skill ceiling all the time - giving them more micro opportunities - this is a perfect example and as soon as we see Maru win 2 games with it you all shit your pants. I'm not saying it is perfect as is -and might eventually require SOME kind of nerf - but it should absolutely not be nerfed into the ground like they are proposing. How many more "hots widow mine nerfs" are we going to see before blizzard learns - DONT NERF RACES THAT AREN'T OVER-PERFORMING. It has literally always done more harm then good. Splitting carriers and broods is not exactly equal to splitting stimmed MM. Give movement boost to those units and we can talk about splitting. It is similar to people saying protoss needs to micro high templars (and they do not talk ab out the micro with prism) Considering their ridiculous pick-up range what‘s so tough about microing Warp Prisms again?
A shocker, terran doesn't understand  AGAIN, I was talking about microing templars on the ground, not from-to WP.
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