On March 08 2018 05:46 Freeborn wrote: Every terran whining please go and check out the recent youtube videos of the raven obliterating a carrier fleet with zero chance of evasion or counter or escape...
Alternatively go and load up the unit tester and have 10+ (20ish supply) shoot at a stacked 100 (air/ground) supply toss army and see it get almost obliterated instantly.
It's really ridiculous.
You can make all kinds of shit happen in a unit tester. 3 widow mines can kill 50 mutas, one high templar can kill 30 marines etc etc.
The game should be balanced around the pro level. And currently at the pro level terran is by far the worst race. They haven't made a final in 6 months, Katowice had 2 terran in the ro12, GSL has 1 in the ro8, and WCS also had 1 in the ro8. That's why terrans are whining. Maru's performance at Katowice was the only glimmer of hope and it was enough to get terran nerfed again.
Check out the youtube videos then of progamers using them in real games lol...
The recent set of changes has barely been active for a couple of weeks and the widow mine changes obviously disrupted a lot but you can already see the pro players adapting and using them effectively again.
Plus your comparison is not really valid, since 50 mutas still have to fly into the mines and marines have to stand in the storm whereas the AAM has a big range and cant be evaded. Also to be fair widowmines are probably a big reason why mass mutas don't work as well any more and storm is a big reason why mass marine is not the best choice vs a toss with HT. Now also be aware of the fact that the AAM works versus EVERY UNIT IN THE GAME and can only be dimished at all by totally spreading your army.
We just watched youtube videos of pros playing with these changes. And a Terran was able to succeed with this strategy against a zerg, and fail against another zerg who had adapted.
What is the issue? Why nerf or buff anything at this point? They just made some of these changes, let the meta settle down first. It's not like Terran is winning everything with ravens all of a sudden, lol. Not even close.
I think the anti armor is looking to be a good spell for itself. So I'm ok with this patch. But nydus worm needs to be vulnerable again, you can make it even free after network is done.
so how many AAM do we need to deal 80 dmg in an 1.5 radius? 5 AAM are needed. so with only 3 ravens you can lanch a homing-storm that deals its dmg in less than 2s and debuffs -3 armor. lets not forget that ravens are faster than HTs, ignore terrain, have 1 more cast range, stuck together and can cast AAM right from the get go.
Lets imagine blizz only nerfes the AAM to 10 dmg flat. 20 supply of ravens could deal 200 dmg within 2s in an 2.88 radius. good luck dodging 20 AAMs
so how many AAM do we need to deal 80 dmg in an 1.5 radius? 5 AAM are needed. so with only 3 ravens you can lanch a homing-storm that deals its dmg in less than 2s and debuffs -3 armor. lets not forget that ravens are faster than HTs, ignore terrain, have 1 more cast range, stuck together and can cast AAM right from the get go.
Lets imagine blizz only nerfes the AAM to 10 dmg flat. 20 supply of ravens could deal 200 dmg within 2s in an 2.88 radius. good luck dodging 20 AAMs
To be fair units aren't points, air units stack, and players do aim for areas of higher concentration, so 10 dmg flat would still be worse than 30 dmg splash. Still it's a good point, the raven nerf isn't quite as big as it seems--it certainly isn't 6 times worse.
so how many AAM do we need to deal 80 dmg in an 1.5 radius? 5 AAM are needed. so with only 3 ravens you can lanch a homing-storm that deals its dmg in less than 2s and debuffs -3 armor. lets not forget that ravens are faster than HTs, ignore terrain, have 1 more cast range, stuck together and can cast AAM right from the get go.
Lets imagine blizz only nerfes the AAM to 10 dmg flat. 20 supply of ravens could deal 200 dmg within 2s in an 2.88 radius. good luck dodging 20 AAMs
To be fair units aren't points, air units stack, and players do aim for areas of higher concentration, so 10 dmg flat would still be worse than 30 dmg splash. Still it's a good point, the raven nerf isn't quite as big as it seems--it certainly isn't 6 times worse.
of course the unit interaktions are much more complex in game than in my small calculation but i wanted to point out why the current raven is really OP and why the raven will still be a super usefull unit to have in every match up after the patch. I honestly think that the raven will be in the best place ever after these changes. I can not understand why some people acting like they deleting the unit from the game.
Some pretty hilarious whining in this thread. The raven missile is too strong and deserves a nerf, and I don't see how anyone can objectively think otherwise. It also goes completely against Blizzard's aims for the unit and in general, it's just kinda dumb.
No, terran is not dominating right now and no, I don't think the viking change is good enough to offset the Raven nerf. But i find it hilarious that people think they shouldn't fix an obviously broken part of the game, just because the win rates aren't in Terran's favour right now. I am 100% sure the raven in its current state would eventually need changing, so I don't see why they should wait until it becomes a statistical anomaly to do something about it. It's better off nerfing the raven now, so they can patch the lategame without a super ridiculous spell distorting all the relevant data. Yes, they need to make more changes, yes they really need to nerf parasitic bomb, yes, terran late-game overall is still not in a great place. But IMO, all of those things make it even more important to nerf the raven now.
On March 08 2018 09:22 blooblooblahblah wrote: Some pretty hilarious whining in this thread. The raven missile is too strong and deserves a nerf, and I don't see how anyone can objectively think otherwise. It also goes completely against Blizzard's aims for the unit and in general, it's just kinda dumb.
No, terran is not dominating right now and no, I don't think the viking change is good enough to offset the Raven nerf. But i find it hilarious that people think they shouldn't fix an obviously broken part of the game, just because the win rates aren't in Terran's favour right now. I am 100% sure the raven in its current state would eventually need changing, so I don't see why they should wait until it becomes a statistical anomaly to do something about it. It's better off nerfing the raven now, so they can patch the lategame without a super ridiculous spell distorting all the relevant data. Yes, they need to make more changes, yes they really need to nerf parasitic bomb, yes, terran late-game overall is still not in a great place. But IMO, all of those things make it even more important to nerf the raven now.
You said it, Terran isn't dominating therefore it doesn't need a nerf.
@blizzard Nerfing things that are NOT dominating is NOT how you balance a game.
On March 07 2018 08:48 Olli wrote: Not sure about this entirely. It's a nice change for Protoss in the matchup, but drops were holdable. Imo it's a general scouting issue with Protoss vs Zergs where early tech is hard to scout with adepts and stargate units, but also later tech becomes a scouting issue once hydras are out. A queen and spore per base + hydras on the map make it very hard to keep tabs on things like a spire going up or when hive tech starts, etc.
I'd rather see a change that allows Protoss to scout better for all-ins, but also mid-lategame tech so they can prepare in time.
Ravens I think did need a patch, but hard to say yet if vikings getting buffed in return will be enough to compensate.
Indeed, as much as I hate zergling drops (they've felt disproportionately strong for the cost since the stalker nerf. I saw this patch coming), they were a symptom of the issue, not the issue itself. They added the mothership core in HOTS specifically to deal with Protoss' inability to do any form of consistent scouting in the early game since otherwise Protoss had to go down certain tech paths just to scout. I never liked the mothership core but I understood why they added it. I was excited enough to start playing again when they had announced that they were removing the mothership core and were instead going to look at buffing Protoss' early game to make it so it could survive more comfortably. However, it didn't work properly (Stalkers were too good in early-mid game PvT. Let's be honest. They worked in PvZ because they could snipe overlords quickly and were good for holding all-ins) and they walked the stalker nerf back while not replacing it, leaving Protoss' early game weaker than it was before the 4.0 changes. Yes, there are shield batteries now, but they have a very limited role compared to what the mothership core did, and obviously zergling drops allow Zerg to circumvent the batteries anyway.
One idea I had was to make Hallucination cheaper. Right now they cost 2 forcefields worth of energy, which is not a risk Protoss can take since the crucial timing for hallucination to be cast is right before the common times several Zerg all-ins hit. Protoss cannot afford to be down those two forcefields at that time.
Or maybe try a smaller buff to stalkers and tinker with how they interact with armoured units a bit?
On March 08 2018 06:10 Freeborn wrote: Plus your comparison is not really valid, since 50 mutas still have to fly into the mines and marines have to stand in the storm whereas the AAM has a big range and cant be evaded. Also to be fair widowmines are probably a big reason why mass mutas don't work as well any more and storm is a big reason why mass marine is not the best choice vs a toss with HT. Now also be aware of the fact that the AAM works versus EVERY UNIT IN THE GAME and can only be dimished at all by totally spreading your army.
Are you being serious? You made ridiculous claims like "20 supply of ravens can kill a 100 supply toss army", but giving examples equally stupid stuff is invalid? If you leave a 100 suppy army stacked like that you're asking to lose it. The same as if you clump up 30 marines against psistorm, or fly a stacked muta army over widow mines. That's why spreading is a thing. You know that 2 vipers or 2 high templar will kill a 100 supply viking army right? But with a good pre split that number is reduced dramatically.
It's the same with ravens, I just tried fighting 2000 gas of ravens against 2000 gas of corruptors for example. If you stack the corruptors they all die, but if you spread them out you barely lose any (and I'm not talking seperate each unit, just a simple pre split).
And btw mass muta is not often seen nowadays because of thors, and hydras being just being better. Widow mines have been a thing since 2013, they aren't the reason LBM is dead.
On March 08 2018 05:46 Freeborn wrote: Every terran whining please go and check out the recent youtube videos of the raven obliterating a carrier fleet with zero chance of evasion or counter or escape...
Alternatively go and load up the unit tester and have 10+ (20ish supply) shoot at a stacked 100 (air/ground) supply toss army and see it get almost obliterated instantly.
It's really ridiculous.
You can make all kinds of shit happen in a unit tester. 3 widow mines can kill 50 mutas, one high templar can kill 30 marines etc etc.
The game should be balanced around the pro level. And currently at the pro level terran is by far the worst race. They haven't made a final in 6 months, Katowice had 2 terran in the ro12, GSL has 1 in the ro8, and WCS also had 1 in the ro8. That's why terrans are whining. Maru's performance at Katowice was the only glimmer of hope and it was enough to get terran nerfed again.
Check out the youtube videos then of progamers using them in real games lol...
Show me those videos then. From what I can see terran is by far the weakest race currently. Nerfing them even more is just ridiculous. Terran ultra lategame has been weak for years, and now that Maru won a few skyterran games that it apparently suddenly needs nerfing. P and Z players just don't want to adapt to terran actually competing in that area of the game for once.
To summarize a terran feeling, yes mass raven is kinda dumb design-wise. But so is SkyToss+ht (+ the mothership nonsense), so is ht+warp-prism, so is mass vipers/spores and mass infestors/spores (actually the best late game anti-air zergs armies), so was BL/infestors, so was old SH play, so is 15 queens infinite-healing T3 army, etc. Theses things lived years of abuse and some are still in the game.
Then terran have, by error of blizzard (who always don't understand what their redesign and new units will lead to ^^) a similar and strong caster-based late-game defensive army. Well, gg, that lasted two weeks. Make bio and get reckt, terrans =)
Btw from last time bio worked maraudeurs and mines are nerfed, banes hydras ultras zelots stalkers immortals and collosi buffed, and if lighting-speed warp-ins in opponents base was not enough for P mobility, they can now recall every time they are out of position. (lots of toss dosen't even bother to map control now vs T lol) Versus zergs the ghosts and libs are still strong, and mech is stronger than in hots, so the MU is kinda ok, but in LOTV TvP terran only survived thanks to the liberator... then heavily nerfed vs toss.
So yes the raven design was bad, but there are way more urgent issues.
Since this thread is for an update, maybe this is a good place for what appears to be a map bug that can hopefully be fixed
This location seems to make it so liberators have extra range (the circle appears to be away from the liberator). It's on Backwater. You cannot reach it with a stalker. It can shut down the entire mineral line. It requires stargate tech to reach for Protoss to reach and likely Spire tech for Zerg.
On March 08 2018 03:42 ReachTheSky wrote: .@Blizzard Balance team
I would much rather have the game shaken up once a month or once every 2-3 months with ***MAJOR BALANCE CHANGES*** similar to how league of legends does it. I firmly believe league **retains** its player base because they keep the game super fresh and always make changes to keep it interesting.
I came back in november 2017(i think right after the major overhaul(removing msc etc etc) after a several year hiatus. Things were exciting again as I had the opportunity to be creative and experiment with new builds/openings/strategies. With the removal of the MSC, aggressive-fun-to-execute-fun-to-watch-builds/openings/strategies that keep me as a player and spectator engaged were viable again. I felt at home again. I felt passionate again like I did during WOL beta and the first year and a half of WOL.
As a player, there are 4 things that drive me: 1. Aggressive, multitask oriented gameplay-It's exciting to execute, it's exciting to watch. This releases the dopamine in my brain. 2. The ability to be creative and invent builds/openings/playstyles. This releases the dopamine in my brain as well. 3. Discovering things in the game on my own. This also releases dopamine in my brain. 4. Evolution of game-play
Once the game is figured out, all 4 of these go away. It makes me less interested. It makes me not want to play as much. I went from playing 30-40 games a day to on average 5-10. Some days not at all in the recent past.
It's 3-5 months since the latest overhaul and everything has been figured out with in the exception of ultra ultra late game(even this is starting to get figured out now as we have seen in the recent past from major tournies). Things aren't as exciting.
I strongly recommend that blizzard takes a page out of riot's playbook and do major overhauls on a regular basis similar to how they do major overhauls for their champions etc. I believe this will keep players interested and playing sc2.
I sincerely hope blizzard takes this feedback under consideration.
Yeah that's basically how DotA does it as well. It certainly would make the game more interesting to play over longer periods of time. IMO the late game is in serious need of a design overhaul. Everybody in this thread moaning about the Raven nerf is 100% from a balance perspective, but no one actually likes playing or watching late game mass air turtlefest. IMO it would be so much cooler if they just made the Carrier/BC/BL unique units like the Mothership where you can only make one, tune them up to be cool siege units designed to break turtled positions so they act as a kind of game-ending mechanic. Up their build time to something super long, slow, perhaps even make it veryr obvious it is being built (or easy to scout). It would be both fun to watch and fun to play if balanced correctly where it would be really hard to tech to so would be really rare to see in a game.
On March 08 2018 12:15 Ben... wrote: Since this thread is for an update, maybe this is a good place for what appears to be a map bug that can hopefully be fixed
This location seems to make it so liberators have extra range (the circle appears to be away from the liberator). It's on Backwater. You cannot reach it with a stalker. It can shut down the entire mineral line. It requires stargate tech to reach for Protoss to reach and likely Spire tech for Zerg.
As this is a fifth base Blizzard won't fix it since they are of the opinion that at point it isn't unreasonable to require air units. There's a similar spot near the linear fourth on Blackpink.
Wait, are they actually serious about this? :D Terran finally had late game and they are taking it away after 1 Tournament where 1 Terran was in the top 4 and he was the only one actually pretty good at it? (remind me again how long did it take to fix adepts?......) This is a joke... Why not remove Storm and Parasitic bomb them? Or reduce their dmg to 10? :D It would be the same thing. But no, Terran just have to split. The other races don't have to learn that? I don't understand :/ The so called "buff" to Viking is just equally ridiculous, it doesn't solve anything at all.
Wow, I am literally gutted, the game was actually enjoyable and kinda balanced after such a long time and they decide to ruin it again, GJ!
On March 08 2018 18:10 algue wrote: I welcome any buff the viking can get. I love how the unit works and wish its transformation would have more of an impact on the game
Hello Algue ! Where the hell have you been ?
To people finding mass raven based army stupid, how they feel about mass viper spore and mass carrier HT mothership core ?
On March 08 2018 18:10 algue wrote: I welcome any buff the viking can get. I love how the unit works and wish its transformation would have more of an impact on the game
Hello Algue ! Where the hell have you been ?
To people finding mass raven based army stupid, how they feel about mass viper spore and mass carrier HT mothership core ?
The saddest thing is that we didn't even see "Mass" Raven most of the time. Maru in almost all of his games had 7-8 Ravens at maximum. How is that different from having 8 HT for example? It wasn't a core unit it was a support unit. Most of the army were still Vikings, tanks or bio. I really really don't see any problem with Raven aside from maybe that the orange units look a little bit stupid, but that is a cosmetic issue. Well, it was fun while it lasted, seems like another pause from SC for me, I really don't like the game when 1 race is completely irrelevant
The Raven solved the problem that Terran has a very weak late game especially compared to Protoss.
Ravens are not too strong if you look at tournament results, Terran does not win any major tournamanet any more. So why nerf the race that struggle the most at the pro level?
I can agree design wise that maybe mass Ravens are not ideal. But then Terran needs another way of figting Carrier/Tempest/HT.
10 more hitpoints on Vikings is not even close to what is needed. Maybe 20 more hitpoints plus 1 native armor and then lowering the ground attack by 2. Not even then would Vikings be too strong but they could maybe do their job of actually countering capitals ships. Right now Vikings only trade even with Carriers and are hard-countered if Carriers have any splash support (which they always have).
On March 08 2018 06:10 Freeborn wrote: Plus your comparison is not really valid, since 50 mutas still have to fly into the mines and marines have to stand in the storm whereas the AAM has a big range and cant be evaded. Also to be fair widowmines are probably a big reason why mass mutas don't work as well any more and storm is a big reason why mass marine is not the best choice vs a toss with HT. Now also be aware of the fact that the AAM works versus EVERY UNIT IN THE GAME and can only be dimished at all by totally spreading your army.
Are you being serious? You made ridiculous claims like "20 supply of ravens can kill a 100 supply toss army", but giving examples equally stupid stuff is invalid? If you leave a 100 suppy army stacked like that you're asking to lose it. The same as if you clump up 30 marines against psistorm, or fly a stacked muta army over widow mines. That's why spreading is a thing. You know that 2 vipers or 2 high templar will kill a 100 supply viking army right? But with a good pre split that number is reduced dramatically.
It's the same with ravens, I just tried fighting 2000 gas of ravens against 2000 gas of corruptors for example. If you stack the corruptors they all die, but if you spread them out you barely lose any (and I'm not talking seperate each unit, just a simple pre split).
And btw mass muta is not often seen nowadays because of thors, and hydras being just being better. Widow mines have been a thing since 2013, they aren't the reason LBM is dead.
On March 08 2018 05:46 Freeborn wrote: Every terran whining please go and check out the recent youtube videos of the raven obliterating a carrier fleet with zero chance of evasion or counter or escape...
Alternatively go and load up the unit tester and have 10+ (20ish supply) shoot at a stacked 100 (air/ground) supply toss army and see it get almost obliterated instantly.
It's really ridiculous.
You can make all kinds of shit happen in a unit tester. 3 widow mines can kill 50 mutas, one high templar can kill 30 marines etc etc.
The game should be balanced around the pro level. And currently at the pro level terran is by far the worst race. They haven't made a final in 6 months, Katowice had 2 terran in the ro12, GSL has 1 in the ro8, and WCS also had 1 in the ro8. That's why terrans are whining. Maru's performance at Katowice was the only glimmer of hope and it was enough to get terran nerfed again.
Check out the youtube videos then of progamers using them in real games lol...
Show me those videos then. From what I can see terran is by far the weakest race currently. Nerfing them even more is just ridiculous. Terran ultra lategame has been weak for years, and now that Maru won a few skyterran games that it apparently suddenly needs nerfing. P and Z players just don't want to adapt to terran actually competing in that area of the game for once.
Are you being intentionally dense?
To make it clear: Mutas as well as carriers and most air units work best when stacked, in a late game scenario DPS per area is important, you want to do as much damage as possible on every clash (deathball you know?). For that you need only watch any pro game using carriers mutas and even vikings.
In the case of parasitic bomb and psistorm most of the damage can be averted if you split after the fact plus they dont stack. And in the case of psistorm the damage is so low that marauders with medivacs can sometimes even stand in it and win fight.
Not to mention the fact that AAM is as the name suggests an ANTI ARMOR MISSILE NOT A SEEKER MISSILE which everybody hated. And the anti armor part actually is very strong and last 20 seconds, which equals +3 attack for marines for 2+ engagements on one cast. And since the AOE is huge u don't need more than a max of 3 casts to splash an army.
Also:
And this one to showcase how small drop can be crazily boosted by the AAM:
If that doesn't convince you, then you are hopeless.
Terran may or may not need buffs/changes but the AAM was just a replication of the seeker missile problem: unfun, unbalanced and without weakness or counter. Let's wait and see how terrans use the actual anti armor effect and the interference matrix.
We all know terrans are a bit slow to accept changes that are not instantly and obviously overpowered
EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/orws6in.jpg)
