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On March 07 2018 10:31 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2018 10:23 TheWinks wrote:
If you want the anti-armor missile to be used "as intended" you have to give terrans a way to take effective engagements while the debuff is up. I would argue it currently is being used as intended though because the only time you see large amounts of damage come out of AAM is when units are clumped up from move commands. When they're spread out, very little effective damage is done and very few units get hit by the debuff. In that sense the damage serves as a disincentive for the enemy from just always running away, which clumps up their units.
The compensatory buff to the Viking does absolutely nothing though. This should never reach live without appropriate compensation for a massive late game nerf. Are you seriously arguing that ravens are working "as intended" when mass raven is specifically what Blizzard doesn't want to happen? As for "very little effective damage" being done lol
Clearly they are not.
You think working as intended should be prioritized over balance tho? Clearly the "intent" does not provide adequate compensation otherwise the best pro gamers in the world would be utilizing it when playing for 150K? If they do this before gsl ro8 its terrible. One terran left lol..we saw rogue steamroll ty and beat maru with the current missle . Should absolutely let gsl play out and see how the 5 brotoss left deal with it.
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On March 07 2018 10:31 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2018 10:23 TheWinks wrote:
If you want the anti-armor missile to be used "as intended" you have to give terrans a way to take effective engagements while the debuff is up. I would argue it currently is being used as intended though because the only time you see large amounts of damage come out of AAM is when units are clumped up from move commands. When they're spread out, very little effective damage is done and very few units get hit by the debuff. In that sense the damage serves as a disincentive for the enemy from just always running away, which clumps up their units.
The compensatory buff to the Viking does absolutely nothing though. This should never reach live without appropriate compensation for a massive late game nerf. Are you seriously arguing that ravens are working "as intended" when mass raven is specifically what Blizzard doesn't want to happen? As for "very little effective damage" being done lol
Mass raven isn't really happening. Anti-armor missile is no seeker missile and simply doesn't do enough damage over a large enough area of effect.The 'very little effective damage' is when anti-armor missile hits mid-engagement. When units are pre-split or in a concave for an engagement, AAM is not all that effective.
Honestly I think they just saw a couple of clips on reddit of ravens killing an anti-micro'd protoss air army and knee jerked terran part of the entire balance update.
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Mass ravens / Terran having viable lategame is NOT ok.
Mass carrier with 5 high templar underneath is OK.
Mass swarmhost vs mech or brood + infestor + 10 viper parabomb is OK.
Same ol same ol from Blizzard.
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On March 07 2018 09:06 Fango wrote:
I'd rather nydus get changed that overlord drops if I'm honest. Droperlords at least seemed holdable to some degree in recent pro matches. I don't actually remember the last time I saw a nydus fail
Unstoppable nydus as an cheese option was never blizzard's design choice for it.It never be and whatever it's too strong or not it goes against thier mindset so change is a must here.
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On March 07 2018 10:46 TheWinks wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2018 10:31 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 07 2018 10:23 TheWinks wrote:
If you want the anti-armor missile to be used "as intended" you have to give terrans a way to take effective engagements while the debuff is up. I would argue it currently is being used as intended though because the only time you see large amounts of damage come out of AAM is when units are clumped up from move commands. When they're spread out, very little effective damage is done and very few units get hit by the debuff. In that sense the damage serves as a disincentive for the enemy from just always running away, which clumps up their units.
The compensatory buff to the Viking does absolutely nothing though. This should never reach live without appropriate compensation for a massive late game nerf. Are you seriously arguing that ravens are working "as intended" when mass raven is specifically what Blizzard doesn't want to happen? As for "very little effective damage" being done lol Mass raven isn't really happening. Anti-armor missile is no seeker missile and simply doesn't do enough damage over a large enough area of effect.The 'very little effective damage' is when anti-armor missile hits mid-engagement. When units are pre-split or in a concave for an engagement, AAM is not all that effective. Honestly I think they just saw a couple of clips on reddit of ravens killing an anti-micro'd protoss air army and knee jerked terran part of the entire balance update.
"Mass raven isn't really happening"
So armies like we saw at IEM with 20+ ravens don't count as mass raven? And the missiles don't have to do a lot of damage individually when they stack, are near instantaneous and you have 30 of them at your disposal.
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What makes a great game is the variety of how we play it. BW is no exception. Back to SC2, i don't really mind about relying on massing a support unit like Raven in every stages of the game to be the core of the army. It is a proof that the gameplay is various and players is willing to grind the game in every aspects. I think Blizzard should keep that in mind. Recently, under the use of players like Maru, AAM has been changed from the role of support spell to a kill-spell is quite interesting. However, it seems to me that this style of play is very solid that might become the only late game Terran tool in every match up is really, really a bad thing. It definitly contracdicts with what i said earlier - The more various gameplay, the better the game is.
So, late game massing Raven like this must go!
I don't find any problems to nerfing AAM damage from 30 HP to 5 HP or even 0 HP because it should stick with the conception of supporting spell. Something needs to be done to compensate, and i don't think Viking's 10 HP buff is good enough. The idea is either make Terran have a more powerful A-Move unit (like BC BW style) or having a more resilient/reproducible army or even both to deal with strong late game Protoss/Zerg late game.
Just my 2 cents:
- Cheaper Viking.
- Cheaper and faster Raven (may be adđing more upgrade option?).
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What blizzard should do is allow the Raven's anti armor debuff to stack repeatedly instead. First missile hit -3 armor, second hit -6 armor, etc.
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t v p is such a struggle and uphill battle those shield batteriies negate all sort of early aggression.
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I dont get why Raven needs its damage nerfed by 86%. I have never seen a single pro game where it is won single highhandedly due to Ravens. If someone has an example, please post.
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They surely dont want soO to win a gsl
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sOs lost vs Scarlett in Pyeongchang and Maru in katowice for reasons that exactly call for these two changes. It is clear. Blizzard wants $o$ to lift the trophy again.
By the way, I completely agree that the two changes are solving the right problems but I don't know if they are the best solutions.
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Not surprised but still disapointed by the raven nerf. I understand why they want to change it. Late game mass raven meta is aids but I don't see how the hp buff on vikings can compensate for it.
Let's wait and see I guess...
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If they want to give terran more lategame they should change the BC, they a fucking block and as microable as cyclone.
What they should do is:
- Give it +2 attack range.
- Allow them to move while attacking (like campaign BCs or phoenixes, you move them around and they auto attack while moving).
Hitting anything with BC is pretty much imposible because they are slow as hell and they need to stop moving before attacking, making them one of the most unmicroable units in the game (even compared to carriers who can micro with their leash range and broodlords/tempest who can use their long range to do focus fire and pullying back)
The only problematic thing with BCs is the yamate+teleport combo but its not a big deal really, they could just add some shared cooldown so you can't use them both one right after the other.
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Probably the most disappointing feedback from TeamBalance (is it team balance or just team of two guys?). I think, people expected more. Vikings with +10 HP can't hold zerg and protoss air army. While Raven was nerfed again. And there still no answer for: useless BCs; auto-win proxy voidrays + batteries vs T; TvP.
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RIP Terran. I long for the day when the overall power of mass air army is nerfed across the board.
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Both of these changes seem completely over the top. Moving Overlord drop back to Lair will make the effectively useless at harassing the opponent, and they'll go back to being used for Baneling drops on top of armies. Also, making it so that a unit affected by the armor debuff can't be damaged by another missile would be a much better change for the Raven.
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So, two terrans in the TOP12 of IEM ? Terran win nothing since months ? let's nerf Terran !
I get that massing ravens is kinda retarded design-wise, but it only works if the Terran is way ahead and/or opponent doesn't (pre)split at all. So it is mostly a design issue, not really a balance one imo.
And it's the only solution to be somewhat competitive in super late game v Toss. (well, if they fuck-up )
Meanwhile huge and real balance concerns are unaddressed. TvP is still totally unplayable in legit macro game, and everyone from master to pro try to win on 1 or 2 bases. Cheeses, kill the probes, 2 base all-in, etc.
Viking is utter trash mainly because of viper/ht (and protoss upgrades on collosi in tvP midgame ), a minor hp buff won't change that.
I still sometimes dream they acknowledge their fuck-up with the marauder and mines nerfs and will reverse them. That's the easiest way to get back to a fair and good TvP without bringing up crazy shit (from too strong liberator to mass ravens etc. ).
Mines are still ok in strait-ups fights, but the drop mine treat no longer requiring detection opens massive BO advantage for protoss (like the common 3g blink with very delayed robo and fast third base into 2x forge)
And for the marauders, they are just so bad in every match-up we nearly don't see them anymore at top level.
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On March 07 2018 10:46 avilo wrote:
Mass ravens / Terran having viable lategame is NOT ok.
Mass carrier with 5 high templar underneath is OK.
Mass swarmhost vs mech or brood + infestor + 10 viper parabomb is OK.
Same ol same ol from Blizzard.
+1 for EXTREME TRUTH
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Terran lategame deleted again.
Ok, time to take a break from this game again.
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I do not even know what to say.
Terran finally had an answer to clumped up Carriers with HT support. And you instantly nerf it.
10 more hit points on Vikings does absolut nothing in comparison. Vikings can still not be used against Carrier/HT due to storm plus no native amour so no protection against interceptors.
I could understand the move if Terran was dominating all tournaments. But every finale is a PvZ and there were only 2 Terrans in the top 12 in Katowice.
Terran is not overperforming so why nerf their only answer to the golden armada?
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WCS
