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TheOneAboveU
Germany3367 Posts
On January 13 2018 23:49 shadymmj wrote: the point is that we don't need such negative articles especially at this stage in sc2's lifespan It's 2018 man, let the dead game memes go already. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15955 Posts
On January 13 2018 23:57 Fango wrote: Patch player = someone that can only win on a certain patch. If Rogue can't win outside that patch then he's a patchzerg. Fruitdealer = Patchzerg confirmed. | ||
Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On January 13 2018 23:49 shadymmj wrote: the point is that we don't need such negative articles especially at this stage in sc2's lifespan The article is not negative, it is challenging. It does not call Rogue a patchzerg, it asks if that is how he will be remembered. It also explicitly wasn't the point of the post I was replying to. | ||
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
On January 14 2018 00:20 Zealously wrote: It does not call Rogue a patchzerg, it asks if that is how he will be remembered. There is one option that fits better than the rest. It’s ‘Patchzerg.’ What was different for Rogue in 2017? A new expansion and design patch that fit his skills better? Sure. No other KeSPA teams to compete with Jin Air? That probably helped. Hydralisks? Yeah, that. Okay sure. I guess it doesn't. I agree the piece begs the question, but it also does a lot to give an answer to it. You can't just choose to ignore that in defending this piece. EDIT: Why I don't think you can just let this off as begging the question, is because the author does very clearly give their conclusion on it. The article reads as phrasing a question, presenting the situation and evidence for possible answers, and then answering it. And if you allow the praise given in that second step to mitigate one of the very strong messages the article does a lot to impart on the reader, at Rogue's expense. It's not a coincidence that the programers who have commented on this don't like it, giving writers TL as a community platform to do what this article just did is not professional or fair to the programers in the SC2 community. | ||
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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On January 14 2018 00:27 Ciaus_Dronu wrote: Okay sure. I guess it doesn't. I agree the piece begs the question, but it also does a lot to give an answer to it. You can't just choose to ignore that in defending this piece. It certainly opens for that, but let's not pretend that the article does him undue injustices. It lays out his achievements across the span of his career pretty levelheadedly, and the very sentence you quoted suggests that hydralisks being strong was only one of many things that he benefited from in 2017 (do you disagree?), not that it was the sole defining feature of his rise to superstardom. It doesn't even emphasize hydralisks above Jin Air's superiority as a team, or the specific patch over LotV on the whole. Given that the article opens with a discussion of how we remember the other world champions, I don't think it's a far-fetched interpretation to read the ending as a provocation to those who would pull out the "patchzerg" label because it's comfortable (especially in light of Rogue's latest showing) rather than a conclusive judgment. If the intent were to label the guy an undeserving patch profiteer, why even mention the absence of other KeSPA teams? Why appraise his achievements fairly if the goal is to judge him unfairly? Edit: and in response to your edit, I suppose our disagreement lies in whether or not the final two sentences constitute a conclusion or not. I don't think they do, nor do I believe they were written to. If you take it as a conclusion and an invitation to view Rogue as a patchzerg, then sure - I see the interpretation. | ||
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
On January 14 2018 00:37 Zealously wrote: It certainly opens for that, but let's not pretend that the article does him undue injustices. It lays out his achievements across the span of his career pretty levelheadedly, and the very sentence you quoted suggests that hydralisks being strong was only one of many things that he benefited from in 2017 (do you disagree?), not that it was the sole defining feature of his rise to superstardom. It doesn't even emphasize hydralisks above Jin Air's superiority as a team, or the specific patch over LotV on the whole. Given that the article opens with a discussion of how we remember the other world champions, I don't think it's a far-fetched interpretation to read the ending as a provocation to those who would pull out the "patchzerg" label because it's comfortable (especially in light of Rogue's latest showing) rather than a conclusive judgment. If the intent were to label the guy an undeserving patch profiteer, why even mention the absence of other KeSPA teams? Why appraise his achievements fairly if the goal is to judge him unfairly? Edit: and in response to your edit, I suppose our disagreement lies in whether or not the final two sentences constitute a conclusion or not. I don't think they do, nor do I believe they were written to. If you take it as a conclusion and an invitation to view Rogue as a patchzerg, then sure - I see the interpretation. It would seem that we have a very different idea of what various pieces of the article are actually doing, and probably won't reconcile that. For example in the Hydralisks quote, Mizenhauer raises these other questions and explanations tentatively, words like "probably" say, to me, that while this is a factor, it's not the most impactful. He then ends that sentence with a strong affirmative on the balance aspect, and goes on in the next paragraph to expand on that. The article may raise points against what I see as a conclusion to the article, but it rather often then goes some way to mitigating those points or diminishing their importance. Again, I don't think we'll be able to agree on this, and I can see now why. I'm still not sure on the idea of having these controversial opinion pieces, which may come at the player's expense, having this by the title: Text byTeamLiquid ESPORTS Were I a professional of any sort associated with the scene, this article with that text would have made rather more unhappy than they have as just a reader. Because it rather strongly diminishes that "this opinion not endorsed by TL etc..." | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15955 Posts
On January 14 2018 01:02 bo1b wrote: TheDwf is one of the better players to have written on this site, and it's one thing to disagree with him, another to think he's a mindless whiner. avilo is a better player than 99.9% of people posting on this forum but that doesn't make his points any more valid. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On January 14 2018 02:06 Charoisaur wrote: avilo is a better player than 99.9% of people posting on this forum but that doesn't make his points any more valid. Avilo does not and has never had the ability to coherently, logically, and persuasively present a case for any sort of balance argument. TheDwf did. Disagree with his argument if you want, but it was a well-constructed argument nonetheless. | ||
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Deleted User 132135
702 Posts
On January 13 2018 22:23 Zealously wrote: We've ridiculed Marineking, INnoVation and Byun (three of the game's most successful Terrans) a billion times in the past, referred to GomTvT as a period of both Terran dominance and - just what you ask for - unjustly favorable conditions for Terrans. If you think TL at any point has taken on a sitewide or coverage-spanning Terran bias that has oppressed and unfairly hurt players and community members (including people participating) on these forums, I will totally reject that claim as either biased or incredibly revisionist. It's not like there haven't been periods where it has been open season on balance whining about Terran (see HotS release for one example, tankivac drop season for another). But above all else, you equate individual writers and the aggregate rankings of TL writers to a sitewide stance or a stance held by TL moderation. TL writers are almost completely separate from site moderation/administration, and if Olli wants to call Terran skillfree bullshit (he has) or lichter wants to denigrate Life's accomplishments in relation to Mvp's (he always does), they're just as free to do so as mizenhauer is to pose a question about Rogue's lasting legacy. TL rankings and TL articles have never (unless explicitly stating otherwise) served to convey the opinion of TL staff as a whole. That you continue to believe that our GOAT rankings mean TL mods favor Terran, or that you seem to believe that we commissioned TheDwf's piece on Zerg/Protoss and what he thought about the state of balance at the time in order to get across staff-wide discontent with the state of the game, is very telling. All TL writers are free to write mostly according to what they want to write, provided it isn't hateful, inflammatory or patently untrue. Controversial is not the same as bad (in a definitive sense) and Terran-biased does not mean absolutely false. The article on ZvPcraft gained a lot of traction in the community and probably had a tangible impact. I can confirm that TheDwf was a raging Protoss hater, but the article was still rather well argued. Casters have taken up our storylines on-stream many times before. By no means were our storylines absolute or the only stories worth telling - our writers simply happened to think they were, and told them well. At no point have we rejected content critical of Terran because we all love Terran players and despise everyone else. Again, this article isn't about proving that Rogue is a patchzerg, but challenging simple and comfortable conclusions that fans often draw when they perceive imbalance. I mean, I understand if you think we're unfair. All our writers are passionate fans, and often happen to like similar players. But not everyone voted Mvp #1, and not everyone thought Protoss was hopelessly overpowered in the period when it was widely believed to be the case. It's a shame that you think we perpetuate bias out of spite, but I promise you that we don't. As a sidenote, it's unreasonable to ask for a "patchterran article" as justice for all Protoss and Zergs. If it's unfair, it's unfair, and it doesn't matter what race is taking fire - right? I haven't got as good of an overview as you about what has been said on TL or not. I do understand that your writers have opinions and you do not control where and how they accumulate. I still believe that the overall output is a bit onedirectional from what I perceive. Requesting a patchterran article was not a serious endeavor but meant to be serving as a prove that it doesn't exist, as I was sure some people would be linking articles that shot against terran, which didn't happen. Is there at all a single article on TL that deals with terran as a race in that kind of manner (patchzerg, pvzcraft) over the lifespan of SC2? I am talking about articles that discredit terran players as they put game balance over individual player abilities to evaluate outcomes of tournements or metagame developments. From what I have seen and read it (it = the bias) is always shooting against P/Z but never against terran. I haven't seen counterproof yet, but I am sure I missed loads of stuff that was release at TL over the years. Isn't it a fact, that whenever it is about a terran, the argument is constructed around why the terran player stood out despite of the metagame leaning towards terran or good general environment for terran, while it is exactly the other way round when it is about protoss or zerg (then it is not despite but cause of)? | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On January 14 2018 02:41 pvsnp wrote: Avilo does not and has never had the ability to coherently, logically, and persuasively present a case for any sort of balance argument. TheDwf did. Disagree with his argument if you want, but it was a well-constructed argument nonetheless. His argument came very close to being well constructed, but was undermined by all the cheap sarcasm and jabs utterly lacking in objectivity that he felt necessary to sneak in. | ||
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starkiller123
United States4030 Posts
On January 14 2018 03:29 LSN wrote: I haven't got as good of an overview as you about what has been said on TL or not. I do understand that your writers have opinions and you do not control where and how they accumulate. I still believe that the overall output is a bit onedirectional from what I perceive. Requesting a patchterran article was not a serious endeavor but meant to be serving as a prove that it doesn't exist, as I was sure some people would be linking articles that shot against terran, which didn't happen. Is there at all a single article on TL that deals with terran as a race in that kind of manner (patchzerg, pvzcraft) over the lifespan of SC2? I am talking about articles that discredit terran players as they put game balance over individual player abilities to evaluate outcomes of tournements or metagame developments. From what I have seen and read it (it = the bias) is always shooting against P/Z but never against terran. I haven't seen counterproof yet, but I am sure I missed loads of stuff that was release at TL over the years. Isn't it a fact, that whenever it is about a terran, the argument is constructed around why the terran player stood out despite of the metagame leaning towards terran or good general environment, while it is exactly the other way round when it is about protoss or zerg? Dear fucking god it's just a game, I can't believe how fragile people are that this of all things offends them | ||
stuchiu
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
You mistook his failing form for patchiness when it was alcoholism. | ||
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Deleted User 132135
702 Posts
On January 14 2018 03:51 starkiller123 wrote: Dear fucking god it's just a game, I can't believe how fragile people are that this of all things offends them (1) It is the game about opinion leadership as in regular politics. (2) Maybe it is as well a game about how many and which users feel welcome/represented/etc. on teamliquid, and who is turning their back to it instead? In state of growth it was only important to get control of opinions (1). However in state of decline (now) it is more important to calm things down and be nice to everyone, which you can see from staff answering nicely (2) instead of being aggressive themselves and using the ban button more likely, which was the case some years ago. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On January 14 2018 03:56 stuchiu wrote: You mistook his failing form for patchiness when it was alcoholism. Is there any source on that besides gossip? I coudln't find anything back when I googled | ||
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Vutalisk
United States680 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
On January 14 2018 03:51 starkiller123 wrote: Dear fucking god it's just a game, I can't believe how fragile people are that this of all things offends them So i'm now free to post "innovation is a patchterran" each time i want like the 15 "patchzerg" posts i've seen in the GSL group C ? Just a game man and just sharing opinions. | ||
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todespolka
221 Posts
On January 13 2018 23:57 Fango wrote: Patch player = someone that can only win on a certain patch. If Rogue can't win outside that patch then he's a patchzerg. And towards the end of last year Rogue was the best zerg yes, but that doesn't mean zerg wasn't very strong. iirc zerg was almost universally accepted as favoured due to LBH and swarmhosts being too good. Ling bane hydra and swarmhosts didn't exist when rogue won. 2017 Tournaments in korea won by protoss: 3, by zerg: 2 (both rogue), by terran: 2 (both innovation) 9 top 4 finishes of zerg: 2 times 1st places: Rogue, Rogue 2 times 2nd places: Soo, Dark 1 time 3rd place: Byul 4 times 4th places: Solar, Dark, Soo, Dark Terran had 6 top 4 finishes: 3 times innovation, TY, Alive and Ryung. Protoss had 10 top 4 finishes: 2 times her0, 4 times stats, 2 times sos, classic and dear. All in all last year was pretty balanced. Only the best players finished top or are we calling dark and soo also patch zergs now? Hence calling rogue a patchzerg is not fair. Also this patch is the most imbalanced according to people. Why didn't rogue win if he is a patch zerg? The terran bias in the scene is obvious! Other races are always called imba and no skill. But terran can do nothing wrong. Terran cheeses and all ins and people say that the player had god like micro. Why is that the case? In my opinion it is because terran is played by a lot of newbies who don't understand the game yet. It is simply the first race people choose to play. But i can be wrong and all skilled players play terran for some reason. | ||
Waxangel
United States33385 Posts
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