• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 00:02
CEST 06:02
KST 13:02
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy2Code S RO8 Preview: herO, Zoun, Bunny, Classic7Code S RO8 Preview: Rogue, GuMiho, Solar, Maru3BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview27Code S RO12 Preview: GuMiho, Bunny, SHIN, ByuN3
Community News
Code S RO8 Results + RO4 Bracket (2025 Season 2)3BGE Stara Zagora 2025 - Replay Pack2Weekly Cups (June 2-8): herO doubles down1[BSL20] ProLeague: Bracket Stage & Dates9GSL Ro4 and Finals moved to Sunday June 15th13
StarCraft 2
General
How herO can make history in the Code S S2 finals TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy Code S RO8 Results + RO4 Bracket (2025 Season 2) Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation
Tourneys
[GSL 2025] Code S: Season 2 - Ro8 - Group A [GSL 2025] Code S: Season 2 - Ro8 - Group B RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
[G] Darkgrid Layout Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady Mutation # 476 Charnel House Mutation # 475 Hard Target Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ FlaSh Witnesses SCV Pull Off the Impossible vs Shu StarCraft & BroodWar Campaign Speedrun Quest Will foreigners ever be able to challenge Koreans?
Tourneys
[BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - Day 4 [BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - Day 3 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL19] Grand Finals
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread Beyond All Reason What do you want from future RTS games?
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Who’s Getting the Effortless-Chic Look Just Right?
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine UK Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Vape Nation Thread
Fan Clubs
Maru Fan Club Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
A Better Routine For Progame…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
I was completely wrong ab…
jameswatts
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 26355 users

The Emperor Has No Clothes: Rogue's Future Legacy - Page 8

Forum Index > SC2 General
282 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 6 7 8 9 10 15 Next All
starkiller123
Profile Joined January 2016
United States4030 Posts
January 13 2018 07:51 GMT
#141
Miz the god
Penev
Profile Joined October 2012
28469 Posts
January 13 2018 08:00 GMT
#142
That's my line :o
I Protoss winner, could it be?
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15913 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-13 09:14:58
January 13 2018 09:10 GMT
#143
Zerg won 0/5 Starleagues in 2017 and there was only 1 player able to win premier tournaments (not counting WCS)
Rogue is pretty much the farthest away from Patchzerg you can be. He's more in the camp of Mvp/Life/Maru of winning against all odds.

Maybe it's the "INnoVation phenomen" that a single player performing exceptionally well completely skews the perception of the race to the point the race is considered strong despite it being only one player.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
snzStorm
Profile Joined August 2015
Russian Federation20 Posts
January 13 2018 10:03 GMT
#144
And now he is out from the GSL
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
January 13 2018 10:41 GMT
#145
Kinda predicted... The path of Classis
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
kajtarp
Profile Joined April 2011
Hungary470 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-13 10:45:43
January 13 2018 10:44 GMT
#146
On January 13 2018 06:19 [F_]aths wrote:
The series against soo alone proves that rogue is no 'patch zerg'. Rogue had in my opinion the more difficult bracket to get to the finals. Soo played well and showed high skill, but Rogue outplayed him decisively.


Did he? Last map he did outplay soO absolutely, yes. But other than that it was pretty equal. 2 mapwins each, with one big luck for Rogue in map 5 (was it map 5? I'm not sure). I hate 4 player maps because its like a damn coin flip quite many times. They got the diagonal start and Rogue scouted soO first. He saw what soO is doing, and could punish him with build order. He knew from where soO's overlords are coming so he could hide his units. It was pretty much a won game from that point. Had soO scouted Rogue first who knows what happens. It could have been easily the opposite. This is why i really hate 4 player maps, because the start locations and who finds the opponent first are absolutely random but can be game deciding...
Why so serious?
Phredxor
Profile Joined May 2013
New Zealand15076 Posts
January 13 2018 10:53 GMT
#147
Lol patchzerg.
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12771 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-13 12:09:44
January 13 2018 12:08 GMT
#148
ByuN issues with multitasking? What the fuck am I reading :x.
Didn't you see TY vs ByuN TvT series at blizzcon 2016?
Seems like fine multitasking to me :o.
edit: I guess since INno lost a bunch of scv from 1 zergling or something during the first Nation Wars of LotV, he has clear issues with multitasking as well and that's why he didn't ever win Blizzcon and won't ever?

I didn't finish the article yet, but I've read from comments that Rogue was called a patchzerg.
It's not that insulting in the sense that Life was a bigger patchzerg yet he is still respected (at least his starcraft achievements)
WriterMaru
GumBa
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
United Kingdom31935 Posts
January 13 2018 12:14 GMT
#149
Rogue is the new sniper.
To all the haters: you deserve to witness many, many more Serral victories, worthy of the godlike player he is.
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12771 Posts
January 13 2018 12:26 GMT
#150
On January 12 2018 02:05 Olli wrote:
Bitter soO fanboy bashes currently better player, probably for beating soO in the finals. Hilarious

Truth be told, Gumiho's GSL win is not totally legit since he had a free final
WriterMaru
Deleted User 132135
Profile Joined December 2010
702 Posts
January 13 2018 12:29 GMT
#151
On January 13 2018 04:48 Zealously wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2018 01:59 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
On January 13 2018 01:36 Durnuu wrote:
On January 13 2018 00:34 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
@Zealously

I think it's incredibly narrow-minded to assume that mizenhauer wrote this article to bash on Rogue or that he doesn’t respect his achievements


I don't really see what other conclusion you can come to here. The whole article reads as follows: Creates context, raises the question about how to consider Rogue among other Blizzcon winners, and then proceeds with analysis and conclusion to answer that question by saying the best way to consider Rogue is as a PatchZerg, ie: someone who has relied on balance as a crutch, with the implication that they probably shouldn't have. It's a very strong attack in the SC2 community, one that inherently cast doubt on a player's achievements. Maybe you don't see it that way, but I'd attribute that to your perspective rather than the any broader community perception of the term.

The article even starts out with this:


WCS has, for the most part, given us champions we are proud to call the best in the world.


Innocent in it's own right, but from the first sentence, the article is set up to cast doubt. The implied "But what about Rogue?" at the end of that opening line.

And then there's this line. At this point in the article it was pretty damn obvious that the article had built up to a concerted effort to downplay Rogue's success.


What was different for Rogue in 2017? A new expansion and design patch that fit his skills better? Sure. No other KeSPA teams to compete with Jin Air? That probably helped. Hydralisks? Yeah, that.


Am I really being narrow-minded here to assume that Rogue's achievements are being disrespected? I'd be blind to think otherwise.
The analysis then goes on to trash Rogue's macro, when it is clear watching his games that he himself had substantial improvement in that regard towards the end of 2017. It's not like Rogue's macro went up leaps and bounds with the larva mechanic change, that only happened long after. Again, partially attributing Rogue's success to the game not punishing him for missed injects, right after the above Hydralisks line.

To his credit, the author then delves into some actual discussion about how we the community should consider him, giving him some credit (although never without again tempering it with some conditionals). But is all meaningless when the discussion is concluded by saying that with hydras as they are, we can't really judge Rogue properly, but if we want to try...


There is one option that fits better than the rest.

It’s ‘Patchzerg.’


Yeah.
That's the conclusion.
It's not a random joke. It's the conclusion to the piece. That is what ties up the doubts and discussions and questions raised.


But even if he did, articles of this kind have always been very clearly formulated as opinion pieces, and somehow equating mizenhauer's opinion with some preconceived notion of how Teamliquid promotes clickbait, bashing and toxic attitudes is pretty rich.


It's the top featured TL article.
The title is right next to a picture of the TL logo.
It has the words "Text byTeamLiquid ESPORTS" right under that title, before even the author's name.
And even so, TL is still giving this a platform. Were it not for the "Text byTeamLiquid ESPORTS" I might be inclined to agree somewhat, but even then TL is still choosing to give this opinion a platform. Both in the article and in comments later on (page 2 I think), Mizenhauer states the community is responsible for these labels and legacies. And in so doing, as a prominent voice in the community being given a platform, is admitting responsibility in creating the perception that Rogue is a patchzerg, deliberately casting doubt on his achievements.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Separate note
I think Liquid'Ret also brings up an important point:

Regardless if Rogue ever wins a game of Starcraft again, he played awesome the latter half of 2017 and his multitask, precise control, and overall gamesense were a class above all other players playing in those tournaments that he won


What this article does now is it strengthens the community potential to see Rogue as a patchzerg in future. It attaches some future condition on his recognition for what he has already accomplished. Which is utter [this word should be obvious].


Yes, one can ignore all the praise about Rogue in the article and call it a Rogue-bashing article, sure.

He gives Rogue a decent amount of praise in the article, but then he pulls the rug from under it all with the conclusion that he's a "patchzerg". It's basically a suckerpunch in article form


On the contrary, I didn't take the final two sentences to mean that Rogue definitely is a patchzerg - rather that his circumstances invite the label because players that have reaped the rewards of certain design/balance changes in the past have also been labeled patchzergs for their bumps in results following a patch. Mizenhauer will have to speak for himself on this, but with mize's writing portfolio in mind I feel like it's more likely that the conclusion is a challenge to comfortable conclusions ("Rogue is a patchzerg", "Marineking is a cheeser", "INnoVation cannot adapt") than the comfortable conclusion itself. This might all be in the fine print, but it's a very significant distinction.

After all, the article does not heap undue criticism on Rogue, nor does it unfairly take away any achievements that Rogue has amassed previously - and there are numerous. He is, after all, (arguably?) the most accomplished Zerg alongside soO still active and competing at the top. If the article's goal was to take away from Rogue's achievements, it doesn't hold that it would begin with praise and acceptance of his successes. Then, if it does give Rogue a "decent amount of praise", isn't it pretty reasonable to read the conclusion through the lens of a critical viewer and the open question of whether that is how people will remember him, than a sloppy attempt to make that argument?



Just the question is why TL never has that kind of stuff about terran. Did you ever see anything like that here before? Calling latest terran GSL winner a patchterran? Probably I always miss that, lol.

Defending protoss in "protossed" doesn't help that at all. That is more like backtracking from protossbashing than anything else.


And in this sense it really does not really matter to me to even read that in detail and argue about facts. As it is onedirectional TL appears tendencious.


And it in fact is.

Just watch your history. E.g. in best players of all times you made a terran player that had the majority of his success during a time when terran was as op as zerg during Broodlord/Infestor, that was the first successful player in SC2 overall, when the game by nature was not yet balanced well and quite volatile (I remember patches like roaches go from 3 to 4 range, SCV got not focuses by attacks when repairing, and many other large scale changes), GSL and other major tournaments were heavily dominated by terrans and the first row of people moved back to broodwar as watching bitbybitprime owning better opponents with a 5 min rush with SCVs in every game was not that much amusing, while casters created words like GomTvT.

I tell you this player does not compare to players like Innovation, Live, and whoever comes to question from the protoss fraction, and he already did not anymore when you released those rankings back in the days.

MvP has alot of things going for him, he was the first complete player of the game. He did not himself abuse early game knockout pushes as much, but benefited from them metawise. Still it is very questionable to put such a player on rank 1 best player of all times under these circumstances.

I don't want to start talking about releasing 30 page of balance wine ZvPcraft, after all the TL terrans who got used to terran OP gameplay of early SC2 and could not mentally adapt that other races get periods of being op as well. At the same time your administrators banned balance whiner's from other races at forums on a daily basis. Etc.


When will the first patchterran article appear on TL?


kajtarp
Profile Joined April 2011
Hungary470 Posts
January 13 2018 12:38 GMT
#152




When will the first patchterran article appear on TL?




I'm quite sure Byun was called patch terran many times obviously because of his reapers and tankivacs.
Why so serious?
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12771 Posts
January 13 2018 12:46 GMT
#153
On January 13 2018 21:29 LSN wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2018 04:48 Zealously wrote:
On January 13 2018 01:59 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
On January 13 2018 01:36 Durnuu wrote:
On January 13 2018 00:34 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
@Zealously

I think it's incredibly narrow-minded to assume that mizenhauer wrote this article to bash on Rogue or that he doesn’t respect his achievements


I don't really see what other conclusion you can come to here. The whole article reads as follows: Creates context, raises the question about how to consider Rogue among other Blizzcon winners, and then proceeds with analysis and conclusion to answer that question by saying the best way to consider Rogue is as a PatchZerg, ie: someone who has relied on balance as a crutch, with the implication that they probably shouldn't have. It's a very strong attack in the SC2 community, one that inherently cast doubt on a player's achievements. Maybe you don't see it that way, but I'd attribute that to your perspective rather than the any broader community perception of the term.

The article even starts out with this:


WCS has, for the most part, given us champions we are proud to call the best in the world.


Innocent in it's own right, but from the first sentence, the article is set up to cast doubt. The implied "But what about Rogue?" at the end of that opening line.

And then there's this line. At this point in the article it was pretty damn obvious that the article had built up to a concerted effort to downplay Rogue's success.


What was different for Rogue in 2017? A new expansion and design patch that fit his skills better? Sure. No other KeSPA teams to compete with Jin Air? That probably helped. Hydralisks? Yeah, that.


Am I really being narrow-minded here to assume that Rogue's achievements are being disrespected? I'd be blind to think otherwise.
The analysis then goes on to trash Rogue's macro, when it is clear watching his games that he himself had substantial improvement in that regard towards the end of 2017. It's not like Rogue's macro went up leaps and bounds with the larva mechanic change, that only happened long after. Again, partially attributing Rogue's success to the game not punishing him for missed injects, right after the above Hydralisks line.

To his credit, the author then delves into some actual discussion about how we the community should consider him, giving him some credit (although never without again tempering it with some conditionals). But is all meaningless when the discussion is concluded by saying that with hydras as they are, we can't really judge Rogue properly, but if we want to try...


There is one option that fits better than the rest.

It’s ‘Patchzerg.’


Yeah.
That's the conclusion.
It's not a random joke. It's the conclusion to the piece. That is what ties up the doubts and discussions and questions raised.


But even if he did, articles of this kind have always been very clearly formulated as opinion pieces, and somehow equating mizenhauer's opinion with some preconceived notion of how Teamliquid promotes clickbait, bashing and toxic attitudes is pretty rich.


It's the top featured TL article.
The title is right next to a picture of the TL logo.
It has the words "Text byTeamLiquid ESPORTS" right under that title, before even the author's name.
And even so, TL is still giving this a platform. Were it not for the "Text byTeamLiquid ESPORTS" I might be inclined to agree somewhat, but even then TL is still choosing to give this opinion a platform. Both in the article and in comments later on (page 2 I think), Mizenhauer states the community is responsible for these labels and legacies. And in so doing, as a prominent voice in the community being given a platform, is admitting responsibility in creating the perception that Rogue is a patchzerg, deliberately casting doubt on his achievements.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Separate note
I think Liquid'Ret also brings up an important point:

Regardless if Rogue ever wins a game of Starcraft again, he played awesome the latter half of 2017 and his multitask, precise control, and overall gamesense were a class above all other players playing in those tournaments that he won


What this article does now is it strengthens the community potential to see Rogue as a patchzerg in future. It attaches some future condition on his recognition for what he has already accomplished. Which is utter [this word should be obvious].


Yes, one can ignore all the praise about Rogue in the article and call it a Rogue-bashing article, sure.

He gives Rogue a decent amount of praise in the article, but then he pulls the rug from under it all with the conclusion that he's a "patchzerg". It's basically a suckerpunch in article form


On the contrary, I didn't take the final two sentences to mean that Rogue definitely is a patchzerg - rather that his circumstances invite the label because players that have reaped the rewards of certain design/balance changes in the past have also been labeled patchzergs for their bumps in results following a patch. Mizenhauer will have to speak for himself on this, but with mize's writing portfolio in mind I feel like it's more likely that the conclusion is a challenge to comfortable conclusions ("Rogue is a patchzerg", "Marineking is a cheeser", "INnoVation cannot adapt") than the comfortable conclusion itself. This might all be in the fine print, but it's a very significant distinction.

After all, the article does not heap undue criticism on Rogue, nor does it unfairly take away any achievements that Rogue has amassed previously - and there are numerous. He is, after all, (arguably?) the most accomplished Zerg alongside soO still active and competing at the top. If the article's goal was to take away from Rogue's achievements, it doesn't hold that it would begin with praise and acceptance of his successes. Then, if it does give Rogue a "decent amount of praise", isn't it pretty reasonable to read the conclusion through the lens of a critical viewer and the open question of whether that is how people will remember him, than a sloppy attempt to make that argument?



Just the question is why TL never has that kind of stuff about terran. Did you ever see anything like that here before? Calling latest terran GSL winner a patchterran? Probably I always miss that, lol.

Defending protoss in "protossed" doesn't help that at all. That is more like backtracking from protossbashing than anything else.


And in this sense it really does not really matter to me to even read that in detail and argue about facts. As it is onedirectional TL appears tendencious.


And it in fact is.

Just watch your history. E.g. in best players of all times you made a terran player that had the majority of his success during a time when terran was as op as zerg during Broodlord/Infestor, that was the first successful player in SC2 overall, when the game by nature was not yet balanced well and quite volatile (I remember patches like roaches go from 3 to 4 range, SCV got not focuses by attacks when repairing, and many other large scale changes), GSL and other major tournaments were heavily dominated by terrans and the first row of people moved back to broodwar as watching bitbybitprime owning better opponents with a 5 min rush with SCVs in every game was not that much amusing, while casters created words like GomTvT.

I tell you this player does not compare to players like Innovation, Live, and whoever comes to question from the protoss fraction, and he already did not anymore when you released those rankings back in the days.

MvP has alot of things going for him, he was the first complete player of the game. He did not himself abuse early game knockout pushes as much, but benefited from them metawise. Still it is very questionable to put such a player on rank 1 best player of all times under these circumstances.

I don't want to start talking about releasing 30 page of balance wine ZvPcraft, after all the TL terrans who got used to terran OP gameplay of early SC2 and could not mentally adapt that other races get periods of being op as well. At the same time your administrators banned balance whiner's from other races at forums on a daily basis. Etc.


When will the first patchterran article appear on TL?



BitByBit got trashed, terran wasn't OP for every Mvp GSL win.
And I got banned multiple times as a terran whiner don't worry there is no bias here.
WriterMaru
Deleted User 132135
Profile Joined December 2010
702 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-13 12:49:44
January 13 2018 12:47 GMT
#154
On January 13 2018 21:38 kajtarp wrote:
Show nested quote +




When will the first patchterran article appear on TL?




I'm quite sure Byun was called patch terran many times obviously because of his reapers and tankivacs.



Link or didn't happen. ;D

BTW: I didn't mean one of these forum posts by users that you get banned for, while the same thing is happening large scale on the mainpage from TL officials.
kajtarp
Profile Joined April 2011
Hungary470 Posts
January 13 2018 12:55 GMT
#155
On January 13 2018 21:47 LSN wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2018 21:38 kajtarp wrote:




When will the first patchterran article appear on TL?




I'm quite sure Byun was called patch terran many times obviously because of his reapers and tankivacs.



Link or didn't happen. ;D

BTW: I didn't mean one of these forum posts by users that you get banned for, while the same thing is happening large scale on the mainpage from TL officials.


come one, even in gsl videos he said that himself. "please dont say i only won because of reapers" :D or something similar.
Why so serious?
Deleted User 132135
Profile Joined December 2010
702 Posts
January 13 2018 13:03 GMT
#156
On January 13 2018 21:55 kajtarp wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2018 21:47 LSN wrote:
On January 13 2018 21:38 kajtarp wrote:




When will the first patchterran article appear on TL?




I'm quite sure Byun was called patch terran many times obviously because of his reapers and tankivacs.



Link or didn't happen. ;D

BTW: I didn't mean one of these forum posts by users that you get banned for, while the same thing is happening large scale on the mainpage from TL officials.


come one, even in gsl videos he said that himself. "please dont say i only won because of reapers" :D or something similar.


Obviously was not enough for TL staff to name that as a fact but much less is enough to create patchzerg agendas.
Ej_
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
47656 Posts
January 13 2018 13:14 GMT
#157
On January 13 2018 21:47 LSN wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2018 21:38 kajtarp wrote:




When will the first patchterran article appear on TL?




I'm quite sure Byun was called patch terran many times obviously because of his reapers and tankivacs.



Link or didn't happen. ;D

try readin the article in the first fucking post of this thread
"Technically the dictionary has zero authority on the meaning or words" - Rodya
Zealously
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
East Gorteau22261 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-13 13:26:06
January 13 2018 13:23 GMT
#158
On January 13 2018 21:29 LSN wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2018 04:48 Zealously wrote:
On January 13 2018 01:59 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
On January 13 2018 01:36 Durnuu wrote:
On January 13 2018 00:34 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
@Zealously

I think it's incredibly narrow-minded to assume that mizenhauer wrote this article to bash on Rogue or that he doesn’t respect his achievements


I don't really see what other conclusion you can come to here. The whole article reads as follows: Creates context, raises the question about how to consider Rogue among other Blizzcon winners, and then proceeds with analysis and conclusion to answer that question by saying the best way to consider Rogue is as a PatchZerg, ie: someone who has relied on balance as a crutch, with the implication that they probably shouldn't have. It's a very strong attack in the SC2 community, one that inherently cast doubt on a player's achievements. Maybe you don't see it that way, but I'd attribute that to your perspective rather than the any broader community perception of the term.

The article even starts out with this:


WCS has, for the most part, given us champions we are proud to call the best in the world.


Innocent in it's own right, but from the first sentence, the article is set up to cast doubt. The implied "But what about Rogue?" at the end of that opening line.

And then there's this line. At this point in the article it was pretty damn obvious that the article had built up to a concerted effort to downplay Rogue's success.


What was different for Rogue in 2017? A new expansion and design patch that fit his skills better? Sure. No other KeSPA teams to compete with Jin Air? That probably helped. Hydralisks? Yeah, that.


Am I really being narrow-minded here to assume that Rogue's achievements are being disrespected? I'd be blind to think otherwise.
The analysis then goes on to trash Rogue's macro, when it is clear watching his games that he himself had substantial improvement in that regard towards the end of 2017. It's not like Rogue's macro went up leaps and bounds with the larva mechanic change, that only happened long after. Again, partially attributing Rogue's success to the game not punishing him for missed injects, right after the above Hydralisks line.

To his credit, the author then delves into some actual discussion about how we the community should consider him, giving him some credit (although never without again tempering it with some conditionals). But is all meaningless when the discussion is concluded by saying that with hydras as they are, we can't really judge Rogue properly, but if we want to try...


There is one option that fits better than the rest.

It’s ‘Patchzerg.’


Yeah.
That's the conclusion.
It's not a random joke. It's the conclusion to the piece. That is what ties up the doubts and discussions and questions raised.


But even if he did, articles of this kind have always been very clearly formulated as opinion pieces, and somehow equating mizenhauer's opinion with some preconceived notion of how Teamliquid promotes clickbait, bashing and toxic attitudes is pretty rich.


It's the top featured TL article.
The title is right next to a picture of the TL logo.
It has the words "Text byTeamLiquid ESPORTS" right under that title, before even the author's name.
And even so, TL is still giving this a platform. Were it not for the "Text byTeamLiquid ESPORTS" I might be inclined to agree somewhat, but even then TL is still choosing to give this opinion a platform. Both in the article and in comments later on (page 2 I think), Mizenhauer states the community is responsible for these labels and legacies. And in so doing, as a prominent voice in the community being given a platform, is admitting responsibility in creating the perception that Rogue is a patchzerg, deliberately casting doubt on his achievements.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Separate note
I think Liquid'Ret also brings up an important point:

Regardless if Rogue ever wins a game of Starcraft again, he played awesome the latter half of 2017 and his multitask, precise control, and overall gamesense were a class above all other players playing in those tournaments that he won


What this article does now is it strengthens the community potential to see Rogue as a patchzerg in future. It attaches some future condition on his recognition for what he has already accomplished. Which is utter [this word should be obvious].


Yes, one can ignore all the praise about Rogue in the article and call it a Rogue-bashing article, sure.

He gives Rogue a decent amount of praise in the article, but then he pulls the rug from under it all with the conclusion that he's a "patchzerg". It's basically a suckerpunch in article form


On the contrary, I didn't take the final two sentences to mean that Rogue definitely is a patchzerg - rather that his circumstances invite the label because players that have reaped the rewards of certain design/balance changes in the past have also been labeled patchzergs for their bumps in results following a patch. Mizenhauer will have to speak for himself on this, but with mize's writing portfolio in mind I feel like it's more likely that the conclusion is a challenge to comfortable conclusions ("Rogue is a patchzerg", "Marineking is a cheeser", "INnoVation cannot adapt") than the comfortable conclusion itself. This might all be in the fine print, but it's a very significant distinction.

After all, the article does not heap undue criticism on Rogue, nor does it unfairly take away any achievements that Rogue has amassed previously - and there are numerous. He is, after all, (arguably?) the most accomplished Zerg alongside soO still active and competing at the top. If the article's goal was to take away from Rogue's achievements, it doesn't hold that it would begin with praise and acceptance of his successes. Then, if it does give Rogue a "decent amount of praise", isn't it pretty reasonable to read the conclusion through the lens of a critical viewer and the open question of whether that is how people will remember him, than a sloppy attempt to make that argument?



Just the question is why TL never has that kind of stuff about terran. Did you ever see anything like that here before? Calling latest terran GSL winner a patchterran? Probably I always miss that, lol.

Defending protoss in "protossed" doesn't help that at all. That is more like backtracking from protossbashing than anything else.


And in this sense it really does not really matter to me to even read that in detail and argue about facts. As it is onedirectional TL appears tendencious.


And it in fact is.

Just watch your history. E.g. in best players of all times you made a terran player that had the majority of his success during a time when terran was as op as zerg during Broodlord/Infestor, that was the first successful player in SC2 overall, when the game by nature was not yet balanced well and quite volatile (I remember patches like roaches go from 3 to 4 range, SCV got not focuses by attacks when repairing, and many other large scale changes), GSL and other major tournaments were heavily dominated by terrans and the first row of people moved back to broodwar as watching bitbybitprime owning better opponents with a 5 min rush with SCVs in every game was not that much amusing, while casters created words like GomTvT.

I tell you this player does not compare to players like Innovation, Live, and whoever comes to question from the protoss fraction, and he already did not anymore when you released those rankings back in the days.

MvP has alot of things going for him, he was the first complete player of the game. He did not himself abuse early game knockout pushes as much, but benefited from them metawise. Still it is very questionable to put such a player on rank 1 best player of all times under these circumstances.

I don't want to start talking about releasing 30 page of balance wine ZvPcraft, after all the TL terrans who got used to terran OP gameplay of early SC2 and could not mentally adapt that other races get periods of being op as well. At the same time your administrators banned balance whiner's from other races at forums on a daily basis. Etc.


When will the first patchterran article appear on TL?




We've ridiculed Marineking, INnoVation and Byun (three of the game's most successful Terrans) a billion times in the past, referred to GomTvT as a period of both Terran dominance and - just what you ask for - unjustly favorable conditions for Terrans. If you think TL at any point has taken on a sitewide or coverage-spanning Terran bias that has oppressed and unfairly hurt players and community members (including people participating) on these forums, I will totally reject that claim as either biased or incredibly revisionist. It's not like there haven't been periods where it has been open season on balance whining about Terran (see HotS release for one example, tankivac drop season for another).

But above all else, you equate individual writers and the aggregate rankings of TL writers to a sitewide stance or a stance held by TL moderation. TL writers are almost completely separate from site moderation/administration, and if Olli wants to call Terran skillfree bullshit (he has) or lichter wants to denigrate Life's accomplishments in relation to Mvp's (he always does), they're just as free to do so as mizenhauer is to pose a question about Rogue's lasting legacy.

TL rankings and TL articles have never (unless explicitly stating otherwise) served to convey the opinion of TL staff as a whole. That you continue to believe that our GOAT rankings mean TL mods favor Terran, or that you seem to believe that we commissioned TheDwf's piece on Zerg/Protoss and what he thought about the state of balance at the time in order to get across staff-wide discontent with the state of the game, is very telling.

All TL writers are free to write mostly according to what they want to write, provided it isn't hateful, inflammatory or patently untrue. Controversial is not the same as bad (in a definitive sense) and Terran-biased does not mean absolutely false. The article on ZvPcraft gained a lot of traction in the community and probably had a tangible impact. I can confirm that TheDwf was a raging Protoss hater, but the article was still rather well argued. Casters have taken up our storylines on-stream many times before. By no means were our storylines absolute or the only stories worth telling - our writers simply happened to think they were, and told them well. At no point have we rejected content critical of Terran because we all love Terran players and despise everyone else. Again, this article isn't about proving that Rogue is a patchzerg, but challenging simple and comfortable conclusions that fans often draw when they perceive imbalance.

I mean, I understand if you think we're unfair. All our writers are passionate fans, and often happen to like similar players. But not everyone voted Mvp #1, and not everyone thought Protoss was hopelessly overpowered in the period when it was widely believed to be the case. It's a shame that you think we perpetuate bias out of spite, but I promise you that we don't.

As a sidenote, it's unreasonable to ask for a "patchterran article" as justice for all Protoss and Zergs. If it's unfair, it's unfair, and it doesn't matter what race is taking fire - right?
AdministratorBreak the chains
shadymmj
Profile Joined June 2010
1906 Posts
January 13 2018 14:49 GMT
#159
the point is that we don't need such negative articles especially at this stage in sc2's lifespan
There is no such thing is "e-sports". There is Brood War, and then there is crap for nerds.
Fango
Profile Joined July 2016
United Kingdom8987 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-13 14:57:43
January 13 2018 14:57 GMT
#160
On January 13 2018 18:10 Charoisaur wrote:
Zerg won 0/5 Starleagues in 2017 and there was only 1 player able to win premier tournaments (not counting WCS)
Rogue is pretty much the farthest away from Patchzerg you can be. He's more in the camp of Mvp/Life/Maru of winning against all odds.

Maybe it's the "INnoVation phenomen" that a single player performing exceptionally well completely skews the perception of the race to the point the race is considered strong despite it being only one player.


Patch player = someone that can only win on a certain patch. If Rogue can't win outside that patch then he's a patchzerg.

And towards the end of last year Rogue was the best zerg yes, but that doesn't mean zerg wasn't very strong. iirc zerg was almost universally accepted as favoured due to LBH and swarmhosts being too good.
Zest, sOs, PartinG, Dark, and Maru are the real champs. ROOT_herO is overrated. Snute, Serral, and Scarlett are the foreigner GOATs
Prev 1 6 7 8 9 10 15 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
OSC
00:00
OSC Elite Rising Star #15
TBD vs ArTLIVE!
Liquipedia
Replay Cast
00:00
uThermal 2v2 Circuit: May
Liquipedia
OSC
21:00
Mid Season Playoffs
ArT vs ReBellioN
HonMonO vs Ziomek
Shameless vs LunaSea
MilkiCow vs GgMaChine
Moja vs HiGhDrA
Jumy vs TBD
Demi vs NightPhoenix
Solar vs Cham
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft373
Nina 283
Ketroc 33
EnDerr 25
StarCraft: Brood War
JulyZerg 184
Leta 118
Icarus 9
Dota 2
monkeys_forever448
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K1305
Other Games
summit1g11295
C9.Mang01579
shahzam1230
ViBE229
ToD132
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Secondary Stream3462
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH293
• Hupsaiya 62
• Light_VIP 42
• practicex 39
• IndyKCrew
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• sooper7s
• intothetv
• Kozan
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• RayReign 27
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Doublelift6215
• Stunt279
Other Games
• Scarra1511
Upcoming Events
WardiTV Invitational
6h 58m
HiGhDrA vs Nicoract
MaNa vs HiGhDrA
HiGhDrA vs Reynor
Nicoract vs Reynor
MaNa vs Nicoract
MaNa vs Reynor
MaxPax vs Spirit
Krystianer vs Spirit
OSC
8h 58m
BSL 2v2 ProLeague S3
14h 58m
Korean StarCraft League
22h 58m
SOOP
1d 4h
sOs vs Percival
CranKy Ducklings
1d 5h
WardiTV Invitational
1d 6h
Cheesadelphia
1d 10h
CSO Cup
1d 12h
BSL: ProLeague
1d 13h
Hawk vs UltrA
Sziky vs spx
TerrOr vs JDConan
[ Show More ]
GSL Code S
2 days
Rogue vs herO
Classic vs GuMiho
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
BSL: ProLeague
2 days
Bonyth vs Dewalt
Cross vs Doodle
MadiNho vs Dragon
Replay Cast
2 days
Wardi Open
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
Cure vs Percival
ByuN vs Spirit
RSL Revival
5 days
herO vs sOs
Zoun vs Clem
Replay Cast
5 days
The PondCast
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Serral vs SHIN
Solar vs Cham
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Season 17: Qualifier 2
BGE Stara Zagora 2025
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
2025 GSL S2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025

Upcoming

Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.