EPTThe Emperor Has No Clothes: Rogue's Future Legacy - Page 8
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starkiller123
United States4030 Posts
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Penev
28469 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15913 Posts
Rogue is pretty much the farthest away from Patchzerg you can be. He's more in the camp of Mvp/Life/Maru of winning against all odds. Maybe it's the "INnoVation phenomen" that a single player performing exceptionally well completely skews the perception of the race to the point the race is considered strong despite it being only one player. | ||
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snzStorm
Russian Federation20 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
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kajtarp
Hungary472 Posts
On January 13 2018 06:19 [F_]aths wrote: The series against soo alone proves that rogue is no 'patch zerg'. Rogue had in my opinion the more difficult bracket to get to the finals. Soo played well and showed high skill, but Rogue outplayed him decisively. Did he? Last map he did outplay soO absolutely, yes. But other than that it was pretty equal. 2 mapwins each, with one big luck for Rogue in map 5 (was it map 5? I'm not sure). I hate 4 player maps because its like a damn coin flip quite many times. They got the diagonal start and Rogue scouted soO first. He saw what soO is doing, and could punish him with build order. He knew from where soO's overlords are coming so he could hide his units. It was pretty much a won game from that point. Had soO scouted Rogue first who knows what happens. It could have been easily the opposite. This is why i really hate 4 player maps, because the start locations and who finds the opponent first are absolutely random but can be game deciding... | ||
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Phredxor
New Zealand15076 Posts
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Poopi
France12771 Posts
Didn't you see TY vs ByuN TvT series at blizzcon 2016? Seems like fine multitasking to me :o. edit: I guess since INno lost a bunch of scv from 1 zergling or something during the first Nation Wars of LotV, he has clear issues with multitasking as well and that's why he didn't ever win Blizzcon and won't ever? I didn't finish the article yet, but I've read from comments that Rogue was called a patchzerg. It's not that insulting in the sense that Life was a bigger patchzerg yet he is still respected (at least his starcraft achievements) | ||
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GumBa
United Kingdom31935 Posts
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Poopi
France12771 Posts
On January 12 2018 02:05 Olli wrote: Bitter soO fanboy bashes currently better player, probably for beating soO in the finals. Hilarious  Truth be told, Gumiho's GSL win is not totally legit since he had a free final | ||
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Deleted User 132135
702 Posts
On January 13 2018 04:48 Zealously wrote: On the contrary, I didn't take the final two sentences to mean that Rogue definitely is a patchzerg - rather that his circumstances invite the label because players that have reaped the rewards of certain design/balance changes in the past have also been labeled patchzergs for their bumps in results following a patch. Mizenhauer will have to speak for himself on this, but with mize's writing portfolio in mind I feel like it's more likely that the conclusion is a challenge to comfortable conclusions ("Rogue is a patchzerg", "Marineking is a cheeser", "INnoVation cannot adapt") than the comfortable conclusion itself. This might all be in the fine print, but it's a very significant distinction. After all, the article does not heap undue criticism on Rogue, nor does it unfairly take away any achievements that Rogue has amassed previously - and there are numerous. He is, after all, (arguably?) the most accomplished Zerg alongside soO still active and competing at the top. If the article's goal was to take away from Rogue's achievements, it doesn't hold that it would begin with praise and acceptance of his successes. Then, if it does give Rogue a "decent amount of praise", isn't it pretty reasonable to read the conclusion through the lens of a critical viewer and the open question of whether that is how people will remember him, than a sloppy attempt to make that argument? Just the question is why TL never has that kind of stuff about terran. Did you ever see anything like that here before? Calling latest terran GSL winner a patchterran? Probably I always miss that, lol. Defending protoss in "protossed" doesn't help that at all. That is more like backtracking from protossbashing than anything else. And in this sense it really does not really matter to me to even read that in detail and argue about facts. As it is onedirectional TL appears tendencious. And it in fact is. Just watch your history. E.g. in best players of all times you made a terran player that had the majority of his success during a time when terran was as op as zerg during Broodlord/Infestor, that was the first successful player in SC2 overall, when the game by nature was not yet balanced well and quite volatile (I remember patches like roaches go from 3 to 4 range, SCV got not focuses by attacks when repairing, and many other large scale changes), GSL and other major tournaments were heavily dominated by terrans and the first row of people moved back to broodwar as watching bitbybitprime owning better opponents with a 5 min rush with SCVs in every game was not that much amusing, while casters created words like GomTvT. I tell you this player does not compare to players like Innovation, Live, and whoever comes to question from the protoss fraction, and he already did not anymore when you released those rankings back in the days. MvP has alot of things going for him, he was the first complete player of the game. He did not himself abuse early game knockout pushes as much, but benefited from them metawise. Still it is very questionable to put such a player on rank 1 best player of all times under these circumstances. I don't want to start talking about releasing 30 page of balance wine ZvPcraft, after all the TL terrans who got used to terran OP gameplay of early SC2 and could not mentally adapt that other races get periods of being op as well. At the same time your administrators banned balance whiner's from other races at forums on a daily basis. Etc. When will the first patchterran article appear on TL? | ||
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kajtarp
Hungary472 Posts
When will the first patchterran article appear on TL? I'm quite sure Byun was called patch terran many times obviously because of his reapers and tankivacs. | ||
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Poopi
France12771 Posts
On January 13 2018 21:29 LSN wrote: Just the question is why TL never has that kind of stuff about terran. Did you ever see anything like that here before? Calling latest terran GSL winner a patchterran? Probably I always miss that, lol. Defending protoss in "protossed" doesn't help that at all. That is more like backtracking from protossbashing than anything else. And in this sense it really does not really matter to me to even read that in detail and argue about facts. As it is onedirectional TL appears tendencious. And it in fact is. Just watch your history. E.g. in best players of all times you made a terran player that had the majority of his success during a time when terran was as op as zerg during Broodlord/Infestor, that was the first successful player in SC2 overall, when the game by nature was not yet balanced well and quite volatile (I remember patches like roaches go from 3 to 4 range, SCV got not focuses by attacks when repairing, and many other large scale changes), GSL and other major tournaments were heavily dominated by terrans and the first row of people moved back to broodwar as watching bitbybitprime owning better opponents with a 5 min rush with SCVs in every game was not that much amusing, while casters created words like GomTvT. I tell you this player does not compare to players like Innovation, Live, and whoever comes to question from the protoss fraction, and he already did not anymore when you released those rankings back in the days. MvP has alot of things going for him, he was the first complete player of the game. He did not himself abuse early game knockout pushes as much, but benefited from them metawise. Still it is very questionable to put such a player on rank 1 best player of all times under these circumstances. I don't want to start talking about releasing 30 page of balance wine ZvPcraft, after all the TL terrans who got used to terran OP gameplay of early SC2 and could not mentally adapt that other races get periods of being op as well. At the same time your administrators banned balance whiner's from other races at forums on a daily basis. Etc. When will the first patchterran article appear on TL? BitByBit got trashed, terran wasn't OP for every Mvp GSL win. And I got banned multiple times as a terran whiner don't worry there is no bias here. | ||
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Deleted User 132135
702 Posts
On January 13 2018 21:38 kajtarp wrote: I'm quite sure Byun was called patch terran many times obviously because of his reapers and tankivacs. Link or didn't happen. ;D BTW: I didn't mean one of these forum posts by users that you get banned for, while the same thing is happening large scale on the mainpage from TL officials. | ||
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kajtarp
Hungary472 Posts
On January 13 2018 21:47 LSN wrote: Link or didn't happen. ;D BTW: I didn't mean one of these forum posts by users that you get banned for, while the same thing is happening large scale on the mainpage from TL officials. come one, even in gsl videos he said that himself. "please dont say i only won because of reapers" :D or something similar. | ||
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Deleted User 132135
702 Posts
On January 13 2018 21:55 kajtarp wrote: come one, even in gsl videos he said that himself. "please dont say i only won because of reapers" :D or something similar. Obviously was not enough for TL staff to name that as a fact but much less is enough to create patchzerg agendas. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
try readin the article in the first fucking post of this thread | ||
Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On January 13 2018 21:29 LSN wrote: Just the question is why TL never has that kind of stuff about terran. Did you ever see anything like that here before? Calling latest terran GSL winner a patchterran? Probably I always miss that, lol. Defending protoss in "protossed" doesn't help that at all. That is more like backtracking from protossbashing than anything else. And in this sense it really does not really matter to me to even read that in detail and argue about facts. As it is onedirectional TL appears tendencious. And it in fact is. Just watch your history. E.g. in best players of all times you made a terran player that had the majority of his success during a time when terran was as op as zerg during Broodlord/Infestor, that was the first successful player in SC2 overall, when the game by nature was not yet balanced well and quite volatile (I remember patches like roaches go from 3 to 4 range, SCV got not focuses by attacks when repairing, and many other large scale changes), GSL and other major tournaments were heavily dominated by terrans and the first row of people moved back to broodwar as watching bitbybitprime owning better opponents with a 5 min rush with SCVs in every game was not that much amusing, while casters created words like GomTvT. I tell you this player does not compare to players like Innovation, Live, and whoever comes to question from the protoss fraction, and he already did not anymore when you released those rankings back in the days. MvP has alot of things going for him, he was the first complete player of the game. He did not himself abuse early game knockout pushes as much, but benefited from them metawise. Still it is very questionable to put such a player on rank 1 best player of all times under these circumstances. I don't want to start talking about releasing 30 page of balance wine ZvPcraft, after all the TL terrans who got used to terran OP gameplay of early SC2 and could not mentally adapt that other races get periods of being op as well. At the same time your administrators banned balance whiner's from other races at forums on a daily basis. Etc. When will the first patchterran article appear on TL? We've ridiculed Marineking, INnoVation and Byun (three of the game's most successful Terrans) a billion times in the past, referred to GomTvT as a period of both Terran dominance and - just what you ask for - unjustly favorable conditions for Terrans. If you think TL at any point has taken on a sitewide or coverage-spanning Terran bias that has oppressed and unfairly hurt players and community members (including people participating) on these forums, I will totally reject that claim as either biased or incredibly revisionist. It's not like there haven't been periods where it has been open season on balance whining about Terran (see HotS release for one example, tankivac drop season for another). But above all else, you equate individual writers and the aggregate rankings of TL writers to a sitewide stance or a stance held by TL moderation. TL writers are almost completely separate from site moderation/administration, and if Olli wants to call Terran skillfree bullshit (he has) or lichter wants to denigrate Life's accomplishments in relation to Mvp's (he always does), they're just as free to do so as mizenhauer is to pose a question about Rogue's lasting legacy. TL rankings and TL articles have never (unless explicitly stating otherwise) served to convey the opinion of TL staff as a whole. That you continue to believe that our GOAT rankings mean TL mods favor Terran, or that you seem to believe that we commissioned TheDwf's piece on Zerg/Protoss and what he thought about the state of balance at the time in order to get across staff-wide discontent with the state of the game, is very telling. All TL writers are free to write mostly according to what they want to write, provided it isn't hateful, inflammatory or patently untrue. Controversial is not the same as bad (in a definitive sense) and Terran-biased does not mean absolutely false. The article on ZvPcraft gained a lot of traction in the community and probably had a tangible impact. I can confirm that TheDwf was a raging Protoss hater, but the article was still rather well argued. Casters have taken up our storylines on-stream many times before. By no means were our storylines absolute or the only stories worth telling - our writers simply happened to think they were, and told them well. At no point have we rejected content critical of Terran because we all love Terran players and despise everyone else. Again, this article isn't about proving that Rogue is a patchzerg, but challenging simple and comfortable conclusions that fans often draw when they perceive imbalance. I mean, I understand if you think we're unfair. All our writers are passionate fans, and often happen to like similar players. But not everyone voted Mvp #1, and not everyone thought Protoss was hopelessly overpowered in the period when it was widely believed to be the case. It's a shame that you think we perpetuate bias out of spite, but I promise you that we don't. As a sidenote, it's unreasonable to ask for a "patchterran article" as justice for all Protoss and Zergs. If it's unfair, it's unfair, and it doesn't matter what race is taking fire - right? | ||
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shadymmj
1906 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On January 13 2018 18:10 Charoisaur wrote: Zerg won 0/5 Starleagues in 2017 and there was only 1 player able to win premier tournaments (not counting WCS) Rogue is pretty much the farthest away from Patchzerg you can be. He's more in the camp of Mvp/Life/Maru of winning against all odds. Maybe it's the "INnoVation phenomen" that a single player performing exceptionally well completely skews the perception of the race to the point the race is considered strong despite it being only one player. Patch player = someone that can only win on a certain patch. If Rogue can't win outside that patch then he's a patchzerg. And towards the end of last year Rogue was the best zerg yes, but that doesn't mean zerg wasn't very strong. iirc zerg was almost universally accepted as favoured due to LBH and swarmhosts being too good. | ||
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