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On January 07 2018 05:11 LTCM wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2018 04:45 pvsnp wrote:On January 07 2018 04:43 LTCM wrote:On January 07 2018 04:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 07 2018 04:08 LTCM wrote:On January 07 2018 03:51 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 07 2018 03:37 LTCM wrote:On January 07 2018 02:57 Myrddrael wrote:On January 07 2018 02:43 LTCM wrote:
Mine is stronger than ever. Stronger than pre 4.0 for sure. When you're INnoVation, sure. Being innovation has nothing to do with it. The new mines do the same damage as before and now build ridiculously fast. Like insanely fast. Blizzard is going to be forced to decrease their hp. Hardly. Their role in the game has shifted quite a bit especially in TvP (and thank god for that. Widow mines and their counterpart the oracle were the most aggravating part of TvP so it's nice to see them both nerfed), but I wouldn't consider them better overall by any means. They still cost the same and are easier to clean up. For a unit that was "nerfed out of the game", we certainly have seen a lot of them at all levels of pro play. That much is undeniable. The meta will settle at higher mine and marauder counts instead of marines. Marauders now crap on colossus so hard. Isn't that fine though? Blizzard's intention when nerfing the widow mine was to make it so mine drops didn't singlehandedly end the game as they did from time to time, and to give more latitude to Protoss openings so that they aren't all required to involve fast robos or fold to mines. Not to "nerf them out of the game". If the widow mine finds a different healthier role in the match-up that's a good thing. It is fine. I'm simply responding to words from terrans themselves. Pokebunny retired because bio play wasn't perceived as viable anymore. On these very forums Major went on a tantrum about how the MSC removal was a "minor change" yet the mine nerf removed it from the game. People took TYs balance whine satire as truth. The gsl season preview was literally several paragraphs of whining. Terrans have had the nerve to suggest additional buffs to the mine and marauder. The terran mid game is still as strong as it has always been. I'm totally ok with that. It's just that it's time for the tears to dry up and for them to recognize that their predictions of doom where completely unfounded. Regardless of the current state of the balance or meta, it's safe to say that a single series between Creator and Inno is a terrible sample size from which to draw any sort of meaningful conclusion. Also, the tone of your post sounds remarkably petty to me. Not to mention presumptuous. The balance team will be the judge of balance, and the only thing grandiloquent pronouncements like yours will do is make yourself look even more foolish if the balance team disagrees. I made no statements concerning the overall state of balance. I specifically said that inno was the better player and thus the games made little difference on balance. I'm merely pointing out that: 1) We've been told time and time again that the widow mine was severely nerfed and was now trash. 2) We have seen lots and lots of widow mines produced at all levels of pro play. 3) Terrans have called for FURTHER buffs to the mine. Those are not opinion.
This:
"The terran mid game is still as strong as it has always been. I'm totally ok with that. It's just that it's time for the tears to dry up and for them to recognize that their predictions of doom where completely unfounded."
sounds remarkably like a "statement concerning the overall state of balance" to me.
What you said just now in your latest post is much more reasonable and much less petty than what you said before. You are correct that your list is not opinions. What you said before, however, was most definitely an opinion.
In any case, as @ZigguratOfUr said, this thread is probably the wrong place for discussing balance.
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This group was too soft for Bogus :D
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On January 07 2018 05:11 LTCM wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2018 04:45 pvsnp wrote:On January 07 2018 04:43 LTCM wrote:On January 07 2018 04:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 07 2018 04:08 LTCM wrote:On January 07 2018 03:51 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 07 2018 03:37 LTCM wrote:On January 07 2018 02:57 Myrddrael wrote:On January 07 2018 02:43 LTCM wrote:
Mine is stronger than ever. Stronger than pre 4.0 for sure. When you're INnoVation, sure. Being innovation has nothing to do with it. The new mines do the same damage as before and now build ridiculously fast. Like insanely fast. Blizzard is going to be forced to decrease their hp. Hardly. Their role in the game has shifted quite a bit especially in TvP (and thank god for that. Widow mines and their counterpart the oracle were the most aggravating part of TvP so it's nice to see them both nerfed), but I wouldn't consider them better overall by any means. They still cost the same and are easier to clean up. For a unit that was "nerfed out of the game", we certainly have seen a lot of them at all levels of pro play. That much is undeniable. The meta will settle at higher mine and marauder counts instead of marines. Marauders now crap on colossus so hard. Isn't that fine though? Blizzard's intention when nerfing the widow mine was to make it so mine drops didn't singlehandedly end the game as they did from time to time, and to give more latitude to Protoss openings so that they aren't all required to involve fast robos or fold to mines. Not to "nerf them out of the game". If the widow mine finds a different healthier role in the match-up that's a good thing. It is fine. I'm simply responding to words from terrans themselves. Pokebunny retired because bio play wasn't perceived as viable anymore. On these very forums Major went on a tantrum about how the MSC removal was a "minor change" yet the mine nerf removed it from the game. People took TYs balance whine satire as truth. The gsl season preview was literally several paragraphs of whining. Terrans have had the nerve to suggest additional buffs to the mine and marauder. The terran mid game is still as strong as it has always been. I'm totally ok with that. It's just that it's time for the tears to dry up and for them to recognize that their predictions of doom where completely unfounded. Regardless of the current state of the balance or meta, it's safe to say that a single series between Creator and Inno is a terrible sample size from which to draw any sort of meaningful conclusion. Also, the tone of your post sounds remarkably petty to me. Not to mention presumptuous. The balance team will be the judge of balance, and the only thing grandiloquent pronouncements like yours will do is make yourself look even more foolish if the balance team disagrees. I made no statements concerning the overall state of balance. I specifically said that inno was the better player and thus the games made little difference on balance (edit: little difference on our understanding of balance). I'm merely pointing out that: 1) We've been told time and time again that the widow mine was severely nerfed and was now trash. 2) We have seen lots and lots of widow mines produced at all levels of pro play. 3) Terrans have called for FURTHER buffs to the mine. Those are not opinion.
Youve already said its time for Terran to stop crying etc..based on one series of the best terran in the world and a guy who just started practicing again lolol. Factory production has nothing to do with it 2 more facs and 4 more mines per round if needed..u build an appropriate ratio of mines. Lets keep watching and see how much bio we see vs the top zergs huh? Maybe after multiple series of inno and ty and stats hero sos rogue/dark etc??
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On January 07 2018 09:42 Veluvian wrote:
This group was too soft for Bogus :D
Yeah, he could have even played with his feet and win.
As I read it before, the patch has changed the role of the WM. It is no more an harrasement weapon, but a real AOE unit which has to be in your army composition. The problem is youd need to replace it after each fight because of its fragility.
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United Kingdom12071 Posts
On January 07 2018 04:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2018 04:08 LTCM wrote:On January 07 2018 03:51 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 07 2018 03:37 LTCM wrote:On January 07 2018 02:57 Myrddrael wrote:On January 07 2018 02:43 LTCM wrote:
Mine is stronger than ever. Stronger than pre 4.0 for sure. When you're INnoVation, sure. Being innovation has nothing to do with it. The new mines do the same damage as before and now build ridiculously fast. Like insanely fast. Blizzard is going to be forced to decrease their hp. Hardly. Their role in the game has shifted quite a bit especially in TvP (and thank god for that. Widow mines and their counterpart the oracle were the most aggravating part of TvP so it's nice to see them both nerfed), but I wouldn't consider them better overall by any means. They still cost the same and are easier to clean up. For a unit that was "nerfed out of the game", we certainly have seen a lot of them at all levels of pro play. That much is undeniable. The meta will settle at higher mine and marauder counts instead of marines. Marauders now crap on colossus so hard. Isn't that fine though? Blizzard's intention when nerfing the widow mine was to make it so mine drops didn't singlehandedly end the game as they did from time to time, and to give more latitude to Protoss openings so that they aren't all required to involve fast robos or fold to mines. Not to "nerf them out of the game". If the widow mine finds a different healthier role in the match-up that's a good thing.
Why did Blizzard even make the mine attack workers in the first place is what I was always confused about. They literally had the perfect template in the spidermine and they ignored it.
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On January 07 2018 20:04 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2018 04:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 07 2018 04:08 LTCM wrote:On January 07 2018 03:51 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 07 2018 03:37 LTCM wrote:On January 07 2018 02:57 Myrddrael wrote:On January 07 2018 02:43 LTCM wrote:
Mine is stronger than ever. Stronger than pre 4.0 for sure. When you're INnoVation, sure. Being innovation has nothing to do with it. The new mines do the same damage as before and now build ridiculously fast. Like insanely fast. Blizzard is going to be forced to decrease their hp. Hardly. Their role in the game has shifted quite a bit especially in TvP (and thank god for that. Widow mines and their counterpart the oracle were the most aggravating part of TvP so it's nice to see them both nerfed), but I wouldn't consider them better overall by any means. They still cost the same and are easier to clean up. For a unit that was "nerfed out of the game", we certainly have seen a lot of them at all levels of pro play. That much is undeniable. The meta will settle at higher mine and marauder counts instead of marines. Marauders now crap on colossus so hard. Isn't that fine though? Blizzard's intention when nerfing the widow mine was to make it so mine drops didn't singlehandedly end the game as they did from time to time, and to give more latitude to Protoss openings so that they aren't all required to involve fast robos or fold to mines. Not to "nerf them out of the game". If the widow mine finds a different healthier role in the match-up that's a good thing. Why did Blizzard even make the mine attack workers in the first place is what I was always confused about. They literally had the perfect template in the spidermine and they ignored it.
Yeah, the more I think about the widow mine vs spider mine the more I am convinced that the latter is better designed.
I'd really like to have cheap and fast building but ground-hitting only mine not able to target workers.
Something like 50min/0gas 0/1 supply 18sec.
At this point in time it would probably be too hard to exchange WM with SM without tweaking other stuff a lot but maybe it might happen with next design patch?
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What TY explained very well in Ultimate Whining Battle is the fact that with no WM harassment anymore, Toss open with Twilight and gates, rush "Blink" and "Charge" and just rolls upon the terran opponent's face. Add to that the Stalkers buff, and it leaves us with a dead terran at 0:01 time of the game.
He showed a replays of a game he lost vs Rail(Verdi) who just spammed Blink Stalkers and built a robo only for the prism.
TY played perfectly well, not misses a bit in his production, but was not enough to hold the mass stalkers push.
Actually, Terran has no answer to counter that.
I just watched GSL games Inno vs Creator and it means nothing about current state of balance. Creator 's macro was awful, Inno made nothing but prod units and a click. Creator looked really out of form.
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On January 07 2018 21:33 Sound1 wrote:
What TY explained very well in Ultimate Whining Battle is the fact that with no WM harassment anymore, Toss open with Twilight and gates, rush "Blink" and "Charge" and just rolls upon the terran opponent's face. Add to that the Stalkers buff, and it leaves us with a dead terran at 0:01 time of the game.
He showed a replays of a game he lost vs Rail(Verdi) who just spammed Blink Stalkers and built a robo only for the prism.
TY played perfectly well, not misses a bit in his production, but was not enough to hold the mass stalkers push.
Actually, Terran has no answer to counter that.
I just watched GSL games Inno vs Creator and it means nothing about current state of balance. Creator 's macro was awful, Inno made nothing but prod units and a click. Creator looked really out of form.
Well WM harrassment is still a thing, it just doesn't force toss into early detection anymore. The initial dmg of mines is still the same. I wonder if fast ghosts could be useful in this situation, seeing how they have instant cloak now
Although I do agree PvT looks like you can just spam stalkers and win right now.
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On January 08 2018 02:02 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2018 21:33 Sound1 wrote:
What TY explained very well in Ultimate Whining Battle is the fact that with no WM harassment anymore, Toss open with Twilight and gates, rush "Blink" and "Charge" and just rolls upon the terran opponent's face. Add to that the Stalkers buff, and it leaves us with a dead terran at 0:01 time of the game.
He showed a replays of a game he lost vs Rail(Verdi) who just spammed Blink Stalkers and built a robo only for the prism.
TY played perfectly well, not misses a bit in his production, but was not enough to hold the mass stalkers push.
Actually, Terran has no answer to counter that.
I just watched GSL games Inno vs Creator and it means nothing about current state of balance. Creator 's macro was awful, Inno made nothing but prod units and a click. Creator looked really out of form. Well WM harrassment is still a thing, it just doesn't force toss into early detection anymore. The initial dmg of mines is still the same. I wonder if fast ghosts could be useful in this situation, seeing how they have instant cloak now Although I do agree PvT looks like you can just spam stalkers and win right now.
Stalker/Zealot/Immortal into storm seems to be standard for PvT right now. It's not unbeatable, but it seems hella strong.
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On January 08 2018 02:02 Fango wrote:
Well WM harrassment is still a thing, it just doesn't force toss into early detection anymore. The initial dmg of mines is still the same. I wonder if fast ghosts could be useful in this situation, seeing how they have instant cloak now
Although I do agree PvT looks like you can just spam stalkers and win right now.
OK, but the fact that toss isn't forced to go Robo in early game anymore is a real problem. He can open with blink into mass gates and overwhelmed the terran in a blink of an eye. Even Stargate isn't necessary anymore. Oracle is very usefull in PvT but why waste his time to build a SG if you can quicly win with only twilight and gates.
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Czech Republic12134 Posts
On January 08 2018 07:51 Sound1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2018 02:02 Fango wrote:
Well WM harrassment is still a thing, it just doesn't force toss into early detection anymore. The initial dmg of mines is still the same. I wonder if fast ghosts could be useful in this situation, seeing how they have instant cloak now
Although I do agree PvT looks like you can just spam stalkers and win right now. OK, but the fact that toss isn't forced to go Robo in early game anymore is a real problem. He can open with blink into mass gates and overwhelmed the terran in a blink of an eye. Even Stargate isn't necessary anymore. Oracle is very usefull in PvT but why waste his time to build a SG if you can quicly win with only twilight and gates.
So not forcing a detection every PvT is a problem but forcing an engineering bay is? I'm not directy attacking you, but I've seen several posts about "defending via turrets is wrong", so I just wanna know where we stand nowadays with forcing a different race into some bulding.
Honestly, the problem is in the fact that the game is way faster during the opening while that doesn't reflect in bio(who cares about mech in PvT). Bio needs stim way faster, I would even consider building starport without factory(while everything except medevacs would require a factory, thus bio player can skip the factory altogether and increase the bio strength - again, the only unit available without a factory would be the medevac).
I kinda find it funny to talk about balance when the distribution is how it is and inno dominated as he was supposed to.
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Interesting that you mention bio needing faster stim, I was having a related discussion in the 'Keepers of the Faith' thread and suggested reducing stim research time from 121 to 100.
I posted some stats and whatnot about the current state of PvT as well.
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On January 08 2018 08:06 deacon.frost wrote:
I kinda find it funny to talk about balance when the distribution is how it is and inno dominated as he was supposed to.
Inno is clearly the 4th race ATM. 
However his games vs Creator and Leenock were so one sided that it means nothing about the current state of balance.
Sorry for them but it was diams vs high master.
Totally agree with the last posts about Stim and Medivac. I say for a long time spatio must not need facto to be built. It is a real disavantage for Terran to be forced to have facto to unlock tech tree while medivac is not even a "T3 high value unit". It is just the most usefull unit in terran army.
Without Stim nd Medivac Terran army is way less lethal than a bunch of roach/ravagers or new ImmoStalkers.
Unfortunatly, the 16marines Stim Medivacs timing is no more viable anymore as it is so bad against early push, so here we have the problem.
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On January 07 2018 02:43 LTCM wrote:
Mine is stronger than ever. Stronger than pre 4.0 for sure.
Mines dont do anything in late game unfortunately, when protoss builds a death ball and roflstomps you.
You also cannot make a judgement based on one game. clearly innovation is a superior player compared to creator, youll have to see how other terrans do.
but yes protoss is a bit strong right now, buffing stalkers was not the right move in my opinion.
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Making any balance assumptions after inno stomps some 2-levels-lower dudes is not wise. I'm personally sure that Stalker, Hydra and Liberator all need a little nerf, but these games don't show that yet.
I'm kind of sad Inno didnt show any mech, but I guess playing most generic bio builds is smart when you are already much better. He can hide any surprises for later stages. Though I've been copying these builds and they are pretty good
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Grats Leenoctopus, did not see him getting through but in hindsight creator and solar maybe wasn't performing their best.
It's weird how extreme a first impression can stick as I still fondly remember the Leenock vs Clide game in GSL from 2010.
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entertaining group play!
i thought SC2 was garbage the way people were whining. turns out the games were good.
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On January 09 2018 02:13 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
entertaining group play!
i thought SC2 was garbage the way people were whining. turns out the games were good.
The real whining will start when the rest of the protosses come out
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Bit sad that Creator wasn't able to advance, but I know that was always to be expected. I felt that it was always going to come down to whether it would be Solar or Leenock. Glad to see Leenock win though and keep the old guard's flame still burning.
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On January 09 2018 02:29 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2018 02:13 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
entertaining group play!
i thought SC2 was garbage the way people were whining. turns out the games were good. The real whining will start when the rest of the protosses come out
Groups E and F are the crucial TvP whine groups.
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EPT
