After what seemed an eternity, StarCraft II returned to Korea with Group A of 2018 GSL Season 1. INnoVation and Creator were first up, with Solar and Leenock taking the stage right after, each of them seeking to become one of the first two to reach the Round of 16.
Creator’s oracles failed to do any economic damage in both games, allowing INnoVation space to hit a bio/mine and marauder heavy timing in games one and two respectively. Stasis wards delayed his attacks, but they did nothing to prevent him from rolling over Creator 2-0.
Leenock’s mutalisks closed out game one after Solar took a faster third, only to fall behind in the ling/bane skirmish. Solar appeared to have held Leenock’s 13/12 in game two, but Solar’s queens left the main base ramp, allowing Leenock to run into the main and take the game.
With his ravager/ling all in falling flat in game one, Leenock opted to play a more straightforward hydra/bane style on Abyssal Reef. INnoVation's constant waves of bio/tank off four bases eventually whittled down Leenock's defenses, however, earning him a spot in the Round of 16.
Creator took a 1-0 lead in the face of Solar’s brood lords, but dropped the series. His archon drops failed to prevent Solar from spilling over him with roaches on Odyssey, while colossi and blink stalkers did him little good against a seemingly infinite number of banelings on Blackpink.
Leenock opened three hatch before pool in both games against Solar. He made a few mutalisks in game one, but it was superior roach production that put up 1-0. Game two was far quicker, with Leenock overwhelming Solar with zerglings and banelings en route to a Round of 16 berth
Besides INnoVation, they all looked out of shape to me. Is it because of the freshness of the patch or because of a lack of investment/practice ? That I don't know.
On January 07 2018 02:38 Serimek wrote: Besides INnoVation, they all looked out of shape to me. Is it because of the freshness of the patch or because of a lack of investment/practice ? That I don't know.
Nah, this group sucked. INnoVation and 3 weak players.
On January 07 2018 02:43 LTCM wrote: Mine is stronger than ever. Stronger than pre 4.0 for sure.
When you're INnoVation, sure.
Being innovation has nothing to do with it. The new mines do the same damage as before and now build ridiculously fast. Like insanely fast. Blizzard is going to be forced to decrease their hp.
On January 07 2018 02:43 LTCM wrote: Mine is stronger than ever. Stronger than pre 4.0 for sure.
When you're INnoVation, sure.
Being innovation has nothing to do with it. The new mines do the same damage as before and now build ridiculously fast. Like insanely fast. Blizzard is going to be forced to decrease their hp.
Hardly. Their role in the game has shifted quite a bit especially in TvP (and thank god for that. Widow mines and their counterpart the oracle were the most aggravating part of TvP so it's nice to see them both nerfed), but I wouldn't consider them better overall by any means. They still cost the same and are easier to clean up.
On January 07 2018 02:38 Serimek wrote: Besides INnoVation, they all looked out of shape to me. Is it because of the freshness of the patch or because of a lack of investment/practice ? That I don't know.
Only Solar looked below his usual level. Creator performed as I'd expect, Leenock did better than normal, and Inno was always gonna win this group
On January 07 2018 02:43 LTCM wrote: Mine is stronger than ever. Stronger than pre 4.0 for sure.
When you're INnoVation, sure.
Being innovation has nothing to do with it. The new mines do the same damage as before and now build ridiculously fast. Like insanely fast. Blizzard is going to be forced to decrease their hp.
Hardly. Their role in the game has shifted quite a bit especially in TvP (and thank god for that. Widow mines and their counterpart the oracle were the most aggravating part of TvP so it's nice to see them both nerfed), but I wouldn't consider them better overall by any means. They still cost the same and are easier to clean up.
For a unit that was "nerfed out of the game", we certainly have seen a lot of them at all levels of pro play. That much is undeniable.
The meta will settle at higher mine and marauder counts instead of marines. Marauders now crap on colossus so hard.
On January 07 2018 02:43 LTCM wrote: Mine is stronger than ever. Stronger than pre 4.0 for sure.
When you're INnoVation, sure.
Being innovation has nothing to do with it. The new mines do the same damage as before and now build ridiculously fast. Like insanely fast. Blizzard is going to be forced to decrease their hp.
Hardly. Their role in the game has shifted quite a bit especially in TvP (and thank god for that. Widow mines and their counterpart the oracle were the most aggravating part of TvP so it's nice to see them both nerfed), but I wouldn't consider them better overall by any means. They still cost the same and are easier to clean up.
For a unit that was "nerfed out of the game", we certainly have seen a lot of them at all levels of pro play. That much is undeniable.
The meta will settle at higher mine and marauder counts instead of marines. Marauders now crap on colossus so hard.
Isn't that fine though? Blizzard's intention when nerfing the widow mine was to make it so mine drops didn't singlehandedly end the game as they did from time to time, and to give more latitude to Protoss openings so that they aren't all required to involve fast robos or fold to mines. Not to "nerf them out of the game". If the widow mine finds a different healthier role in the match-up that's a good thing.
On January 07 2018 02:43 LTCM wrote: Mine is stronger than ever. Stronger than pre 4.0 for sure.
When you're INnoVation, sure.
Being innovation has nothing to do with it. The new mines do the same damage as before and now build ridiculously fast. Like insanely fast. Blizzard is going to be forced to decrease their hp.
Hardly. Their role in the game has shifted quite a bit especially in TvP (and thank god for that. Widow mines and their counterpart the oracle were the most aggravating part of TvP so it's nice to see them both nerfed), but I wouldn't consider them better overall by any means. They still cost the same and are easier to clean up.
For a unit that was "nerfed out of the game", we certainly have seen a lot of them at all levels of pro play. That much is undeniable.
The meta will settle at higher mine and marauder counts instead of marines. Marauders now crap on colossus so hard.
Isn't that fine though? Blizzard's intention when nerfing the widow mine was to make it so mine drops didn't singlehandedly end the game as they did from time to time, and to give more latitude to Protoss openings so that they aren't all required to involve fast robos or fold to mines. Not to "nerf them out of the game". If the widow mine finds a different healthier role in the match-up that's a good thing.
It is fine. I'm simply responding to words from terrans themselves.
Pokebunny retired because bio play wasn't perceived as viable anymore. On these very forums Major went on a tantrum about how the MSC removal was a "minor change" yet the mine nerf removed it from the game. People took TYs balance whine satire as truth. The gsl season preview was literally several paragraphs of whining. Terrans have had the nerve to suggest additional buffs to the mine and marauder.
The terran mid game is still as strong as it has always been. I'm totally ok with that. It's just that it's time for the tears to dry up and for them to recognize that their predictions of doom were completely unfounded.
On January 07 2018 02:43 LTCM wrote: Mine is stronger than ever. Stronger than pre 4.0 for sure.
When you're INnoVation, sure.
Being innovation has nothing to do with it. The new mines do the same damage as before and now build ridiculously fast. Like insanely fast. Blizzard is going to be forced to decrease their hp.
Hardly. Their role in the game has shifted quite a bit especially in TvP (and thank god for that. Widow mines and their counterpart the oracle were the most aggravating part of TvP so it's nice to see them both nerfed), but I wouldn't consider them better overall by any means. They still cost the same and are easier to clean up.
For a unit that was "nerfed out of the game", we certainly have seen a lot of them at all levels of pro play. That much is undeniable.
The meta will settle at higher mine and marauder counts instead of marines. Marauders now crap on colossus so hard.
Isn't that fine though? Blizzard's intention when nerfing the widow mine was to make it so mine drops didn't singlehandedly end the game as they did from time to time, and to give more latitude to Protoss openings so that they aren't all required to involve fast robos or fold to mines. Not to "nerf them out of the game". If the widow mine finds a different healthier role in the match-up that's a good thing.
It is fine. I'm simply responding to words from terrans themselves.
Pokebunny retired because bio play wasn't perceived as viable anymore. On these very forums Major went on a tantrum about how the MSC removal was a "minor change" yet the mine nerf removed it from the game. People took TYs balance whine satire as truth. The gsl season preview was literally several paragraphs of whining. Terrans have had the nerve to suggest additional buffs to the mine and marauder.
The terran mid game is still as strong as it has always been. I'm totally ok with that. It's just that it's time for the tears to dry up and for them to recognize that their predictions of doom where completely unfounded.
Regardless of the current state of the balance or meta, it's safe to say that a single series between Creator and Inno is a terrible sample size from which to draw any sort of meaningful conclusion.
Also, the tone of your post sounds remarkably petty to me. Not to mention presumptuous. The balance team will be the judge of balance, and the only thing grandiloquent pronouncements like yours will do is make yourself look even more foolish if the balance team disagrees.
On January 07 2018 02:43 LTCM wrote: Mine is stronger than ever. Stronger than pre 4.0 for sure.
When you're INnoVation, sure.
Being innovation has nothing to do with it. The new mines do the same damage as before and now build ridiculously fast. Like insanely fast. Blizzard is going to be forced to decrease their hp.
Hardly. Their role in the game has shifted quite a bit especially in TvP (and thank god for that. Widow mines and their counterpart the oracle were the most aggravating part of TvP so it's nice to see them both nerfed), but I wouldn't consider them better overall by any means. They still cost the same and are easier to clean up.
For a unit that was "nerfed out of the game", we certainly have seen a lot of them at all levels of pro play. That much is undeniable.
The meta will settle at higher mine and marauder counts instead of marines. Marauders now crap on colossus so hard.
Isn't that fine though? Blizzard's intention when nerfing the widow mine was to make it so mine drops didn't singlehandedly end the game as they did from time to time, and to give more latitude to Protoss openings so that they aren't all required to involve fast robos or fold to mines. Not to "nerf them out of the game". If the widow mine finds a different healthier role in the match-up that's a good thing.
It is fine. I'm simply responding to words from terrans themselves.
Pokebunny retired because bio play wasn't perceived as viable anymore. On these very forums Major went on a tantrum about how the MSC removal was a "minor change" yet the mine nerf removed it from the game. People took TYs balance whine satire as truth. The gsl season preview was literally several paragraphs of whining. Terrans have had the nerve to suggest additional buffs to the mine and marauder.
The terran mid game is still as strong as it has always been. I'm totally ok with that. It's just that it's time for the tears to dry up and for them to recognize that their predictions of doom where completely unfounded.
Terran early game is still quite weakened, so a marauder buff sounds reasonable to me especially since it also helps the other match-ups, but maybe this isn't the thread for this.
On January 07 2018 02:43 LTCM wrote: Mine is stronger than ever. Stronger than pre 4.0 for sure.
When you're INnoVation, sure.
Being innovation has nothing to do with it. The new mines do the same damage as before and now build ridiculously fast. Like insanely fast. Blizzard is going to be forced to decrease their hp.
Hardly. Their role in the game has shifted quite a bit especially in TvP (and thank god for that. Widow mines and their counterpart the oracle were the most aggravating part of TvP so it's nice to see them both nerfed), but I wouldn't consider them better overall by any means. They still cost the same and are easier to clean up.
For a unit that was "nerfed out of the game", we certainly have seen a lot of them at all levels of pro play. That much is undeniable.
The meta will settle at higher mine and marauder counts instead of marines. Marauders now crap on colossus so hard.
Isn't that fine though? Blizzard's intention when nerfing the widow mine was to make it so mine drops didn't singlehandedly end the game as they did from time to time, and to give more latitude to Protoss openings so that they aren't all required to involve fast robos or fold to mines. Not to "nerf them out of the game". If the widow mine finds a different healthier role in the match-up that's a good thing.
It is fine. I'm simply responding to words from terrans themselves.
Pokebunny retired because bio play wasn't perceived as viable anymore. On these very forums Major went on a tantrum about how the MSC removal was a "minor change" yet the mine nerf removed it from the game. People took TYs balance whine satire as truth. The gsl season preview was literally several paragraphs of whining. Terrans have had the nerve to suggest additional buffs to the mine and marauder.
The terran mid game is still as strong as it has always been. I'm totally ok with that. It's just that it's time for the tears to dry up and for them to recognize that their predictions of doom where completely unfounded.
Regardless of the current state of the balance or meta, it's safe to say that a single series between Creator and Inno is a terrible sample size from which to draw any sort of meaningful conclusion.
Also, the tone of your post sounds remarkably petty to me. Not to mention presumptuous. The balance team will be the judge of balance, and the only thing grandiloquent pronouncements like yours will do is make yourself look even more foolish if the balance team disagrees.
I made no statements concerning the overall state of balance. I specifically said that inno was the better player and thus the games made little difference on balance (edit: little difference on our understanding of balance). I'm merely pointing out that:
1) We've been told time and time again that the widow mine was severely nerfed and was now trash. 2) We have seen lots and lots of widow mines produced at all levels of pro play. 3) Terrans have called for FURTHER buffs to the mine.
On January 07 2018 02:43 LTCM wrote: Mine is stronger than ever. Stronger than pre 4.0 for sure.
When you're INnoVation, sure.
Being innovation has nothing to do with it. The new mines do the same damage as before and now build ridiculously fast. Like insanely fast. Blizzard is going to be forced to decrease their hp.
Hardly. Their role in the game has shifted quite a bit especially in TvP (and thank god for that. Widow mines and their counterpart the oracle were the most aggravating part of TvP so it's nice to see them both nerfed), but I wouldn't consider them better overall by any means. They still cost the same and are easier to clean up.
For a unit that was "nerfed out of the game", we certainly have seen a lot of them at all levels of pro play. That much is undeniable.
The meta will settle at higher mine and marauder counts instead of marines. Marauders now crap on colossus so hard.
Isn't that fine though? Blizzard's intention when nerfing the widow mine was to make it so mine drops didn't singlehandedly end the game as they did from time to time, and to give more latitude to Protoss openings so that they aren't all required to involve fast robos or fold to mines. Not to "nerf them out of the game". If the widow mine finds a different healthier role in the match-up that's a good thing.
It is fine. I'm simply responding to words from terrans themselves.
Pokebunny retired because bio play wasn't perceived as viable anymore. On these very forums Major went on a tantrum about how the MSC removal was a "minor change" yet the mine nerf removed it from the game. People took TYs balance whine satire as truth. The gsl season preview was literally several paragraphs of whining. Terrans have had the nerve to suggest additional buffs to the mine and marauder.
The terran mid game is still as strong as it has always been. I'm totally ok with that. It's just that it's time for the tears to dry up and for them to recognize that their predictions of doom where completely unfounded.
Regardless of the current state of the balance or meta, it's safe to say that a single series between Creator and Inno is a terrible sample size from which to draw any sort of meaningful conclusion.
Also, the tone of your post sounds remarkably petty to me. Not to mention presumptuous. The balance team will be the judge of balance, and the only thing grandiloquent pronouncements like yours will do is make yourself look even more foolish if the balance team disagrees.
I made no statements concerning the overall state of balance. I specifically said that inno was the better player and thus the games made little difference on balance. I'm merely pointing out that:
1) We've been told time and time again that the widow mine was severely nerfed and was now trash. 2) We have seen lots and lots of widow mines produced at all levels of pro play. 3) Terrans have called for FURTHER buffs to the mine.
Those are not opinion.
This:
"The terran mid game is still as strong as it has always been. I'm totally ok with that. It's just that it's time for the tears to dry up and for them to recognize that their predictions of doom where completely unfounded."
sounds remarkably like a "statement concerning the overall state of balance" to me.
What you said just now in your latest post is much more reasonable and much less petty than what you said before. You are correct that your list is not opinions. What you said before, however, was most definitely an opinion.
In any case, as @ZigguratOfUr said, this thread is probably the wrong place for discussing balance.
On January 07 2018 02:43 LTCM wrote: Mine is stronger than ever. Stronger than pre 4.0 for sure.
When you're INnoVation, sure.
Being innovation has nothing to do with it. The new mines do the same damage as before and now build ridiculously fast. Like insanely fast. Blizzard is going to be forced to decrease their hp.
Hardly. Their role in the game has shifted quite a bit especially in TvP (and thank god for that. Widow mines and their counterpart the oracle were the most aggravating part of TvP so it's nice to see them both nerfed), but I wouldn't consider them better overall by any means. They still cost the same and are easier to clean up.
For a unit that was "nerfed out of the game", we certainly have seen a lot of them at all levels of pro play. That much is undeniable.
The meta will settle at higher mine and marauder counts instead of marines. Marauders now crap on colossus so hard.
Isn't that fine though? Blizzard's intention when nerfing the widow mine was to make it so mine drops didn't singlehandedly end the game as they did from time to time, and to give more latitude to Protoss openings so that they aren't all required to involve fast robos or fold to mines. Not to "nerf them out of the game". If the widow mine finds a different healthier role in the match-up that's a good thing.
It is fine. I'm simply responding to words from terrans themselves.
Pokebunny retired because bio play wasn't perceived as viable anymore. On these very forums Major went on a tantrum about how the MSC removal was a "minor change" yet the mine nerf removed it from the game. People took TYs balance whine satire as truth. The gsl season preview was literally several paragraphs of whining. Terrans have had the nerve to suggest additional buffs to the mine and marauder.
The terran mid game is still as strong as it has always been. I'm totally ok with that. It's just that it's time for the tears to dry up and for them to recognize that their predictions of doom where completely unfounded.
Regardless of the current state of the balance or meta, it's safe to say that a single series between Creator and Inno is a terrible sample size from which to draw any sort of meaningful conclusion.
Also, the tone of your post sounds remarkably petty to me. Not to mention presumptuous. The balance team will be the judge of balance, and the only thing grandiloquent pronouncements like yours will do is make yourself look even more foolish if the balance team disagrees.
I made no statements concerning the overall state of balance. I specifically said that inno was the better player and thus the games made little difference on balance (edit: little difference on our understanding of balance). I'm merely pointing out that:
1) We've been told time and time again that the widow mine was severely nerfed and was now trash. 2) We have seen lots and lots of widow mines produced at all levels of pro play. 3) Terrans have called for FURTHER buffs to the mine.
Those are not opinion.
Youve already said its time for Terran to stop crying etc..based on one series of the best terran in the world and a guy who just started practicing again lolol. Factory production has nothing to do with it 2 more facs and 4 more mines per round if needed..u build an appropriate ratio of mines. Lets keep watching and see how much bio we see vs the top zergs huh? Maybe after multiple series of inno and ty and stats hero sos rogue/dark etc??
On January 07 2018 09:42 Veluvian wrote: This group was too soft for Bogus :D
Yeah, he could have even played with his feet and win.
As I read it before, the patch has changed the role of the WM. It is no more an harrasement weapon, but a real AOE unit which has to be in your army composition. The problem is youd need to replace it after each fight because of its fragility.
On January 07 2018 02:43 LTCM wrote: Mine is stronger than ever. Stronger than pre 4.0 for sure.
When you're INnoVation, sure.
Being innovation has nothing to do with it. The new mines do the same damage as before and now build ridiculously fast. Like insanely fast. Blizzard is going to be forced to decrease their hp.
Hardly. Their role in the game has shifted quite a bit especially in TvP (and thank god for that. Widow mines and their counterpart the oracle were the most aggravating part of TvP so it's nice to see them both nerfed), but I wouldn't consider them better overall by any means. They still cost the same and are easier to clean up.
For a unit that was "nerfed out of the game", we certainly have seen a lot of them at all levels of pro play. That much is undeniable.
The meta will settle at higher mine and marauder counts instead of marines. Marauders now crap on colossus so hard.
Isn't that fine though? Blizzard's intention when nerfing the widow mine was to make it so mine drops didn't singlehandedly end the game as they did from time to time, and to give more latitude to Protoss openings so that they aren't all required to involve fast robos or fold to mines. Not to "nerf them out of the game". If the widow mine finds a different healthier role in the match-up that's a good thing.
Why did Blizzard even make the mine attack workers in the first place is what I was always confused about. They literally had the perfect template in the spidermine and they ignored it.
On January 07 2018 02:43 LTCM wrote: Mine is stronger than ever. Stronger than pre 4.0 for sure.
When you're INnoVation, sure.
Being innovation has nothing to do with it. The new mines do the same damage as before and now build ridiculously fast. Like insanely fast. Blizzard is going to be forced to decrease their hp.
Hardly. Their role in the game has shifted quite a bit especially in TvP (and thank god for that. Widow mines and their counterpart the oracle were the most aggravating part of TvP so it's nice to see them both nerfed), but I wouldn't consider them better overall by any means. They still cost the same and are easier to clean up.
For a unit that was "nerfed out of the game", we certainly have seen a lot of them at all levels of pro play. That much is undeniable.
The meta will settle at higher mine and marauder counts instead of marines. Marauders now crap on colossus so hard.
Isn't that fine though? Blizzard's intention when nerfing the widow mine was to make it so mine drops didn't singlehandedly end the game as they did from time to time, and to give more latitude to Protoss openings so that they aren't all required to involve fast robos or fold to mines. Not to "nerf them out of the game". If the widow mine finds a different healthier role in the match-up that's a good thing.
Why did Blizzard even make the mine attack workers in the first place is what I was always confused about. They literally had the perfect template in the spidermine and they ignored it.
Yeah, the more I think about the widow mine vs spider mine the more I am convinced that the latter is better designed. I'd really like to have cheap and fast building but ground-hitting only mine not able to target workers. Something like 50min/0gas 0/1 supply 18sec. At this point in time it would probably be too hard to exchange WM with SM without tweaking other stuff a lot but maybe it might happen with next design patch?
What TY explained very well in Ultimate Whining Battle is the fact that with no WM harassment anymore, Toss open with Twilight and gates, rush "Blink" and "Charge" and just rolls upon the terran opponent's face. Add to that the Stalkers buff, and it leaves us with a dead terran at 0:01 time of the game.
He showed a replays of a game he lost vs Rail(Verdi) who just spammed Blink Stalkers and built a robo only for the prism. TY played perfectly well, not misses a bit in his production, but was not enough to hold the mass stalkers push. Actually, Terran has no answer to counter that.
I just watched GSL games Inno vs Creator and it means nothing about current state of balance. Creator 's macro was awful, Inno made nothing but prod units and a click. Creator looked really out of form.
On January 07 2018 21:33 Sound1 wrote: What TY explained very well in Ultimate Whining Battle is the fact that with no WM harassment anymore, Toss open with Twilight and gates, rush "Blink" and "Charge" and just rolls upon the terran opponent's face. Add to that the Stalkers buff, and it leaves us with a dead terran at 0:01 time of the game.
He showed a replays of a game he lost vs Rail(Verdi) who just spammed Blink Stalkers and built a robo only for the prism. TY played perfectly well, not misses a bit in his production, but was not enough to hold the mass stalkers push. Actually, Terran has no answer to counter that.
I just watched GSL games Inno vs Creator and it means nothing about current state of balance. Creator 's macro was awful, Inno made nothing but prod units and a click. Creator looked really out of form.
Well WM harrassment is still a thing, it just doesn't force toss into early detection anymore. The initial dmg of mines is still the same. I wonder if fast ghosts could be useful in this situation, seeing how they have instant cloak now
Although I do agree PvT looks like you can just spam stalkers and win right now.
On January 07 2018 21:33 Sound1 wrote: What TY explained very well in Ultimate Whining Battle is the fact that with no WM harassment anymore, Toss open with Twilight and gates, rush "Blink" and "Charge" and just rolls upon the terran opponent's face. Add to that the Stalkers buff, and it leaves us with a dead terran at 0:01 time of the game.
He showed a replays of a game he lost vs Rail(Verdi) who just spammed Blink Stalkers and built a robo only for the prism. TY played perfectly well, not misses a bit in his production, but was not enough to hold the mass stalkers push. Actually, Terran has no answer to counter that.
I just watched GSL games Inno vs Creator and it means nothing about current state of balance. Creator 's macro was awful, Inno made nothing but prod units and a click. Creator looked really out of form.
Well WM harrassment is still a thing, it just doesn't force toss into early detection anymore. The initial dmg of mines is still the same. I wonder if fast ghosts could be useful in this situation, seeing how they have instant cloak now
Although I do agree PvT looks like you can just spam stalkers and win right now.
Stalker/Zealot/Immortal into storm seems to be standard for PvT right now. It's not unbeatable, but it seems hella strong.
On January 08 2018 02:02 Fango wrote: Well WM harrassment is still a thing, it just doesn't force toss into early detection anymore. The initial dmg of mines is still the same. I wonder if fast ghosts could be useful in this situation, seeing how they have instant cloak now
Although I do agree PvT looks like you can just spam stalkers and win right now.
OK, but the fact that toss isn't forced to go Robo in early game anymore is a real problem. He can open with blink into mass gates and overwhelmed the terran in a blink of an eye. Even Stargate isn't necessary anymore. Oracle is very usefull in PvT but why waste his time to build a SG if you can quicly win with only twilight and gates.
On January 08 2018 02:02 Fango wrote: Well WM harrassment is still a thing, it just doesn't force toss into early detection anymore. The initial dmg of mines is still the same. I wonder if fast ghosts could be useful in this situation, seeing how they have instant cloak now
Although I do agree PvT looks like you can just spam stalkers and win right now.
OK, but the fact that toss isn't forced to go Robo in early game anymore is a real problem. He can open with blink into mass gates and overwhelmed the terran in a blink of an eye. Even Stargate isn't necessary anymore. Oracle is very usefull in PvT but why waste his time to build a SG if you can quicly win with only twilight and gates.
So not forcing a detection every PvT is a problem but forcing an engineering bay is? I'm not directy attacking you, but I've seen several posts about "defending via turrets is wrong", so I just wanna know where we stand nowadays with forcing a different race into some bulding.
Honestly, the problem is in the fact that the game is way faster during the opening while that doesn't reflect in bio(who cares about mech in PvT). Bio needs stim way faster, I would even consider building starport without factory(while everything except medevacs would require a factory, thus bio player can skip the factory altogether and increase the bio strength - again, the only unit available without a factory would be the medevac).
I kinda find it funny to talk about balance when the distribution is how it is and inno dominated as he was supposed to.
Interesting that you mention bio needing faster stim, I was having a related discussion in the 'Keepers of the Faith' thread and suggested reducing stim research time from 121 to 100.
I posted some stats and whatnot about the current state of PvT as well.
On January 08 2018 08:06 deacon.frost wrote: I kinda find it funny to talk about balance when the distribution is how it is and inno dominated as he was supposed to.
Inno is clearly the 4th race ATM. However his games vs Creator and Leenock were so one sided that it means nothing about the current state of balance. Sorry for them but it was diams vs high master.
Totally agree with the last posts about Stim and Medivac. I say for a long time spatio must not need facto to be built. It is a real disavantage for Terran to be forced to have facto to unlock tech tree while medivac is not even a "T3 high value unit". It is just the most usefull unit in terran army. Without Stim nd Medivac Terran army is way less lethal than a bunch of roach/ravagers or new ImmoStalkers. Unfortunatly, the 16marines Stim Medivacs timing is no more viable anymore as it is so bad against early push, so here we have the problem.
On January 07 2018 02:43 LTCM wrote: Mine is stronger than ever. Stronger than pre 4.0 for sure.
Mines dont do anything in late game unfortunately, when protoss builds a death ball and roflstomps you.
You also cannot make a judgement based on one game. clearly innovation is a superior player compared to creator, youll have to see how other terrans do.
but yes protoss is a bit strong right now, buffing stalkers was not the right move in my opinion.
Making any balance assumptions after inno stomps some 2-levels-lower dudes is not wise. I'm personally sure that Stalker, Hydra and Liberator all need a little nerf, but these games don't show that yet.
I'm kind of sad Inno didnt show any mech, but I guess playing most generic bio builds is smart when you are already much better. He can hide any surprises for later stages. Though I've been copying these builds and they are pretty good
On January 09 2018 02:13 JimmyJRaynor wrote: entertaining group play! i thought SC2 was garbage the way people were whining. turns out the games were good.
The real whining will start when the rest of the protosses come out
Bit sad that Creator wasn't able to advance, but I know that was always to be expected. I felt that it was always going to come down to whether it would be Solar or Leenock. Glad to see Leenock win though and keep the old guard's flame still burning.
On January 09 2018 02:13 JimmyJRaynor wrote: entertaining group play! i thought SC2 was garbage the way people were whining. turns out the games were good.
The real whining will start when the rest of the protosses come out
On January 09 2018 02:13 JimmyJRaynor wrote: entertaining group play! i thought SC2 was garbage the way people were whining. turns out the games were good.
The real whining will start when the rest of the protosses come out
Groups E and F are the crucial TvP whine groups.
Groups H has herO's usual bullshit as well. If ByuN loses in group F that will take the cake
On January 09 2018 02:13 JimmyJRaynor wrote: entertaining group play! i thought SC2 was garbage the way people were whining. turns out the games were good.
The real whining will start when the rest of the protosses come out
Groups E and F are the crucial TvP whine groups.
Groups H has herO's usual bullshit as well. If ByuN loses in group F that will take the cake
If sOs elevates bullshit to an art form, herO devolves it to a dumpster fire.
On January 09 2018 02:13 JimmyJRaynor wrote: entertaining group play! i thought SC2 was garbage the way people were whining. turns out the games were good.
The real whining will start when the rest of the protosses come out
Groups E and F are the crucial TvP whine groups.
Groups H has herO's usual bullshit as well. If ByuN loses in group F that will take the cake
herO is pretty good and more importantly people think herO is pretty good, so whining due to Group H won't be too good especially if Maru gets though in second place anyways which is likely. But if Trap (whose form is quite good recently) beats ByuN (who's persistently overrated) that would make for some crisp whine with a nice finish. There's also an outside chance that Hurricane beats TY since TY's TvP is quite bad even compared to the other terrans, but I don't have much faith in Hurricane.
On January 09 2018 02:13 JimmyJRaynor wrote: entertaining group play! i thought SC2 was garbage the way people were whining. turns out the games were good.
The real whining will start when the rest of the protosses come out
Groups E and F are the crucial TvP whine groups.
Groups H has herO's usual bullshit as well. If ByuN loses in group F that will take the cake
herO is pretty good and more importantly people think herO is pretty good, so whining due to Group H won't be too good especially if Maru gets though in second place anyways which is likely. But if Trap (whose form is quite good recently) beats ByuN (who's persistently overrated) that would make for some crisp whine with a nice finish. There's also an outside chance that Hurricane beats TY since TY's TvP is quite bad even compared to the other terrans, but I don't have much faith in Hurricane.
TY lost to DnS in GSL quals. Hurricane was seriously good pre-patch as well (barely missed out on GSL ro8 iirc), and it hasn't exactly been the kind of patch that causes protoss to start slumping. I wouldn't be shocked in the slightest if Hurricane wins the group
On January 08 2018 08:17 pvsnp wrote: Interesting that you mention bio needing faster stim, I was having a related discussion in the 'Keepers of the Faith' thread and suggested reducing stim research time from 121 to 100.
I posted some stats and whatnot about the current state of PvT as well.
a 20 second reduction seems like it would brutalize zvt
On January 08 2018 08:17 pvsnp wrote: Interesting that you mention bio needing faster stim, I was having a related discussion in the 'Keepers of the Faith' thread and suggested reducing stim research time from 121 to 100.
I posted some stats and whatnot about the current state of PvT as well.
a 20 second reduction seems like it would brutalize zvt
On January 08 2018 08:17 pvsnp wrote: Interesting that you mention bio needing faster stim, I was having a related discussion in the 'Keepers of the Faith' thread and suggested reducing stim research time from 121 to 100.
I posted some stats and whatnot about the current state of PvT as well.
a 20 second reduction seems like it would brutalize zvt
I thought bio was dead in TvZ right now
Twenty seconds on stim would make for some terrifying all-ins and timings especially in TvZ. Bio being dead mainly due to ling/bane/hydra being too efficient in the midgame (though bio isn't as dead as people call it) doesn't even matter when you just smash the zerg with these early game timings.
Even if these timings get figured out eventually you still end up with these stim timing attacks taking over the meta for a while which isn't ideal with all the tournaments started, and you're still hoping that the stronger early game gives you momentum when going into a midgame of lbh still being more efficient.
On January 08 2018 08:17 pvsnp wrote: Interesting that you mention bio needing faster stim, I was having a related discussion in the 'Keepers of the Faith' thread and suggested reducing stim research time from 121 to 100.
I posted some stats and whatnot about the current state of PvT as well.
a 20 second reduction seems like it would brutalize zvt
I thought bio was dead in TvZ right now
Twenty seconds on stim would make for some terrifying all-ins and timings especially in TvZ. Bio being dead mainly due to ling/bane/hydra being too efficient in the midgame (though bio isn't as dead as people call it) doesn't even matter when you just smash the zerg with these early game timings.
Even if these timings get figured out eventually you still end up with these stim timing attacks taking over the meta for a while which isn't ideal with all the tournaments started, and you're still hoping that the stronger early game gives you momentum when going into a midgame of lbh still being more efficient.
Honestly I wouldn't have thought a shorter stim time would make much difference. As it stands you can get stim out when you have around 2 medivacs worth of bio. Most stim timings seem to be limited by the number of marines that the terran can get out before stim completes, not the length of time taken to upgrade
On January 08 2018 08:17 pvsnp wrote: Interesting that you mention bio needing faster stim, I was having a related discussion in the 'Keepers of the Faith' thread and suggested reducing stim research time from 121 to 100.
I posted some stats and whatnot about the current state of PvT as well.
a 20 second reduction seems like it would brutalize zvt
I thought bio was dead in TvZ right now
Twenty seconds on stim would make for some terrifying all-ins and timings especially in TvZ. Bio being dead mainly due to ling/bane/hydra being too efficient in the midgame (though bio isn't as dead as people call it) doesn't even matter when you just smash the zerg with these early game timings.
Even if these timings get figured out eventually you still end up with these stim timing attacks taking over the meta for a while which isn't ideal with all the tournaments started, and you're still hoping that the stronger early game gives you momentum when going into a midgame of lbh still being more efficient.
Honestly I wouldn't have thought a shorter stim time would make much difference. As it stands you can get stim out when you have around 2 medivacs worth of bio. Most stim timings seem to be limited by the number of marines that the terran can get out before stim completes, not the length of time taken to upgrade
Most stim timings need to transition into a normal macro build--reducing stim research time could result in some all-in timings with more marines becoming viable. Either way I don't see reducing stim helping TvZ in a healthy way. Either it powers out some new all-ins, or it doesn't do much to help normal macro play against ling-bane-hydra, or even possibly both at once. Reducing stim would help TvZ if the problem was that zerg bullied terran too hard in the early game exploiting the lack of stim, but that really isn't the case. It could help TvP I guess, though I'm not convinced it's a good solution there either.
On January 08 2018 08:17 pvsnp wrote: Interesting that you mention bio needing faster stim, I was having a related discussion in the 'Keepers of the Faith' thread and suggested reducing stim research time from 121 to 100.
I posted some stats and whatnot about the current state of PvT as well.
a 20 second reduction seems like it would brutalize zvt
I thought bio was dead in TvZ right now
Twenty seconds on stim would make for some terrifying all-ins and timings especially in TvZ. Bio being dead mainly due to ling/bane/hydra being too efficient in the midgame (though bio isn't as dead as people call it) doesn't even matter when you just smash the zerg with these early game timings.
Even if these timings get figured out eventually you still end up with these stim timing attacks taking over the meta for a while which isn't ideal with all the tournaments started, and you're still hoping that the stronger early game gives you momentum when going into a midgame of lbh still being more efficient.
Honestly I wouldn't have thought a shorter stim time would make much difference. As it stands you can get stim out when you have around 2 medivacs worth of bio. Most stim timings seem to be limited by the number of marines that the terran can get out before stim completes, not the length of time taken to upgrade
Most stim timings need to transition into a normal macro build--reducing stim research time could result in some all-in timings with more marines becoming viable. Either way I don't see reducing stim helping TvZ in a healthy way. Either it powers out some new all-ins, or it doesn't do much to help normal macro play against ling-bane-hydra, or even possibly both at once. Reducing stim would help TvZ if the problem was that zerg bullied terran too hard in the early game exploiting the lack of stim, but that really isn't the case. It could help TvP I guess, though I'm not convinced it's a good solution there either.
Agreed, most of the zerg early game is defending early from terran harass and not really attacking the terran outside of roach or ravager timings.
The point of reducing stim time is to help in TvP, in TvT bio vs mech (mech openings are like 2 times better than bio ones in TvT ). In TvZ it would be mostly helpful to defend all-ins ( nydus, ravagers lings all-ins, etc.) and to have a better shield timing. Defending zergs all-ins while openings bio is notoriously more hard to do than when opening mech (either fast tanks or hellbats or banshee plus continuous prod.. vs classic hellion/viking into switching add-ons for bio play) and would be very welcoming for ladder play. (i think some zergs here don't get the amount of all-in there are from Z in this MU in ladder )
Stim requiring a tech lab, except multi-rax opening without factory (witch are ok vP but sucks hard vT or vZ), the count of bio units is kinda low when one get a fast stim... so it's not an issue for stim timings per se. (the 2x medivacs stim timing would be the same, coz medivacs) The interesting offensive point would be a faster stim_then_shield timing when playing with one early techlab. It's not super early timing at all. By this point gateways-heavy toss have already blink+charge/speedepts, and zergs hydras and speedbanes.
On February 03 2018 07:34 xongnox wrote: That's an up!..
The point of reducing stim time is to help in TvP, in TvT bio vs mech (mech openings are like 2 times better than bio ones in TvT ). In TvZ it would be mostly helpful to defend all-ins ( nydus, ravagers lings all-ins, etc.) and to have a better shield timing. Defending zergs all-ins while openings bio is notoriously more hard to do than when opening mech (either fast tanks or hellbats or banshee plus continuous prod.. vs classic hellion/viking into switching add-ons for bio play) and would be very welcoming for ladder play. (i think some zergs here don't get the amount of all-in there are from Z in this MU in ladder )
Stim requiring a tech lab, except multi-rax opening without factory (witch are ok vP but sucks hard vT or vZ), the count of bio units is kinda low when one get a fast stim... so it's not an issue for stim timings per se. (the 2x medivacs stim timing would be the same, coz medivacs) The interesting offensive point would be a faster stim_then_shield timing when playing with one early techlab. It's not super early timing at all. By this point gateways-heavy toss have already blink+charge/speedepts, and zergs hydras and speedbanes.
You don't need medievacs for an early stim timing to be useful which is what people are missing. You could do some sick marine hellion stim timings that could mangle zerg early especially with micro.
EPT
INnoVation and 
Creator were first up, with 
Solar and 
2018 Global StarCraft II League Season 1
