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On November 18 2017 09:23 Liquid`Snute wrote:
The issue with oracle rush might lie with chrono, chrono stack rushes got buffed super hard and it shows in builds like dt rush also, or chrono adept rush.
targeting the oracle might be a slippery slope when chrono stack rush might turn out to be the real issue. very important to focus on the right properties here
Yeah definitely. Oracles are just the most obvious way to abuse the new chrono, wouldn't be surprised to see something else replace it. That being said I don't think nerfing oracles is too bad either, since oracles being a core army unit against zerg was a bit weird to begin with, and widow mines the PvT counterpart of oracles got nerfed. I'm more worried that if the oracle nerf proves ineffective Blizzard will start nerfing other things that are enabled by the new chrono, before eventually nerfing chrono messing up Protoss in the process.
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On November 18 2017 05:04 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2017 04:41 Odowan Paleolithic wrote:On November 18 2017 03:55 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Oracle
- Pulsar Beam
- Damage changed from 25 vs light to 22 vs light.
- Damage type reverted back from Normal to Spell.
- Build time increased from 37 to 43 seconds.
This changes how effective they are against Marines and SCVs especially. Marines are now able to defeat an Oracle head on with a group of 5 instead of 6. This change also adjusts the relationship between Oracles and Hydralisks slightly and the Hydralisk will perform better vs Oracles. We are also increasing the build time to match Void Rays to help push back the timing of when Oracles hit slightly.
Not that I'm against it. Once again they are making changes in a vacuum. This is an indirect slight buff for twilight openers in PvP. You need some math classes buddy. SCVs have 45 health, 2 shot with old oracle 3 shot with new Probes have 40 health, 2 shot with old oracle 2 shot with new The 6 second delay transforms to roughly 3-ish with chrono (chrono shaves 10 seconds of build for a duration of 10 seconds, double chrono transformes 40 seconds of build into 20 thus the 6 seconds get kinda of halved considering it gets past 43 by 3. So no its not a big change in PvP
Try calculate when the 2nd oracle pop out in time for DT if the first has not been killed and still have energy for revelation.
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On November 18 2017 08:22 Edowyth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2017 08:12 Lexender wrote:
Build time as I said its not really nerf with in the CB change.
Not to get in on the rest of this, but that's bullshit. Oracles' build time was straight up nerfed. The short-duration effects of chronoboost have exactly the same effect as old chrono over time so if you ever build more than one oracle this is a straight up nerf to their production speed. And if you ever considered building oracles without chronoboosting them (as is frequently the case in the mid- or late- game when chrono is desperately needed on upgrades like ETL, blink, glaives, or storm), it's even more clearly a straight nerf. The nerf to their damage is also effectively a 50% DPS nerf in PvT in the early game. Certainly something was needed (longer build time on stargates?) but this is a massive over-nerf. Oracles will certainly see far, far less play than even before the design patch once this goes through. Sure, you'll see one or two for scouting purposes throughout the game, but that's it.
I agree something had to be done to ballance TvP but this is a bit to far, I think it would be more reasonable to nerf the stargate build time as overall it has less impact than nerfing oracle production speed. Oracles are critical for protoss scouting so making them take longer to build hurts protoss the whole game rather than just at the start which is where they really needed to be adjusted.
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On November 18 2017 09:30 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2017 09:23 Liquid`Snute wrote:The issue with oracle rush might lie with chrono, chrono stack rushes got buffed super hard and it shows in builds like dt rush also, or chrono adept rush. https://twitter.com/HarstemSc2/status/931595039255552001targeting the oracle might be a slippery slope when chrono stack rush might turn out to be the real issue. very important to focus on the right properties here Yeah definitely. Oracles are just the most obvious way to abuse the new chrono, wouldn't be surprised to see something else replace it. That being said I don't think nerfing oracles is too bad either, since oracles being a core army unit against zerg was a bit weird to begin with, and widow mines the PvT counterpart of oracles got nerfed. I'm more worried that if the oracle nerf proves ineffective Blizzard will start nerfing other things that are enabled by the new chrono, before eventually nerfing chrono messing up Protoss in the process.
this makes sense might also be a better alternative than this rather drastic nerf.
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Overall, good changes, I agree with the direction the team is heading. Oracle nerf's may be a tad overkill, but that remains to be seen. It will probably be better design wise that this unit has a niche spell caster roll, as opposed to being able to be massed effectively.
In terms of Protosses matchup's, I do anticipate the pendulum to swing in the other direction, either slightly or quite apparently, particularly in PvT. I believe the effectiveness of the oracles has hidden other areas where Protoss may be lacking.
If I recall, the main reason the MsC was introduced was to help tosses deal with Medivac (Ferrari vac) aggression in the mid to late game. It remains to be seen if the stalker buff, shield batteries and observer vision range buff will be enough to let tosses hang on vs multi-prong drops now with the removal of the mama core. I anticipate well be seeing lots of tosses dying to 2-4 medivac drops in the mid to late game. That being said, the overall design of Protoss seems to be in a much better state than before.
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I rarely used Oracle for its damage, I find the unit more interresting for its utility. I don't know how frustrating it is to play against as T or Z, but since Widowmines got changed I enjoy Sc2 again, if the oracle nerfs can do the same for T and Z have at it.
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Good notes. They said about Stalkers.
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Why deleting fungal like that ?
Yes it's deleting, no one will ever build infestor except for IT vs skytoss, it's worst than during the area when no one play them...
The dmg is ridiculous 30 dmg... a HT is cheaper and storm does 80dmg...
So the utility ? Oh no it just slows...
The survability ? no, infestor without burrow is instant killed by tanks/feedback.
So you'll have an ability that does no dmg, a unit very expensive that die really fast, and a spell that is now close to useless...
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Can they at least change fungal growth to cast instantly instead of a delay? Delay makes sense if it immobilizes units. Now it doesn't.
Fungal growth with burrow was a lot of fun though.
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Also pls fix connectivity issues... Bnet is super Laggy. I played one rank game and had to wait five min before the main screen loads for another game.
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Also please nerf the stalker blink cooldown. Right now blink all-ins are pretty much unstoppable.
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Hoping they push this out asap, as a terran it feels pointless to play waiting for these necessary fixes 
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I assume Blizzard is holding off on implementing these changes till the 27th in case the update screws something up so they don't have to pull people into work and away from their families, but that begs the question of why they released the patch when they did since there was a 100% chance that at least one change was going to be game breaking or why they didn't fix things before the update went live since we had ample evidence of issues after Homestory cup.
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game keeps crashing for my friend every time we finish a co-op mission
blizzard pleaaassee
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On November 18 2017 10:45 Tyrhanius wrote:
Why deleting fungal like that ?
Yes it's deleting, no one will ever build infestor except for IT vs skytoss, it's worst than during the area when no one play them...
The dmg is ridiculous 30 dmg... a HT is cheaper and storm does 80dmg...
So the utility ? Oh no it just slows...
The survability ? no, infestor without burrow is instant killed by tanks/feedback.
So you'll have an ability that does no dmg, a unit very expensive that die really fast, and a spell that is now close to useless...
And that's where a specialized caster must be, in it's niche,
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How about reducing oracle's starting energy from 50 to 25 (or even 0), but gives an upgrade to add it back to 50 in fleet beacon? It can still 2-shot your SCV and marine and arrive at your base around 3:00, but does not have the energy to do too many damage at this timing.
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wow we didn't give this very long did we?
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Still think that nerfing oracle will have more impact on pvz (especially vs early game ling flood) than pvt (which honeslty I think it's just a meta problem).
Proxy oracle was abused also in HOTS initially, then terrans just learn to deal with them.
Nerfing CB is not an option because without MSC it will reduce greatly defense vs zergs.
All changes proposed will impact more on early pvz than in any other matchup.
Am I the only one thinking that is really too early to talk about changes?
HSC is the only tournament played and most of people partecipating there did not prepared on new changes (WCS was ended few days before)
I mean, neeb being best protoss was eliminated at group stage...doesn't it sound strange? To me it's more like a rush to bandaid fixes which david kim was used to do and killed protoss in lotv...
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btw still issues with ladder, on EU = tons of spikes, freezing, on NA = SITE = Singapore, ping >300ms.
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On November 18 2017 04:14 Aegwynn wrote:
I liked the changes overall, but why would they triple nerf the infestors? They will go back to garbage unit that no one makes with these changes.
It really doesn't make sense to nerf it into the ground. Understandably, it will still have a role when carriers come out or the viking count gets too high, but it feels like the unit, which was just starting to get some traction in the meta, is now going to be unused.
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EPT
