EPTWatch the vod and draw whatever conclusions you choose.
Stats: KeSPA's Custodian - Rank 3 - Road to BlizzCon - Pag…
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Rolltide
United States447 Posts
Watch the vod and draw whatever conclusions you choose. | ||
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Gurbak
France622 Posts
On October 24 2017 04:23 Rolltide wrote: https://youtu.be/qs7lM66Za0g?t=25 Watch the vod and draw whatever conclusions you choose. Rogue won the supertournament. Stats lost in ro16. The conclusion is obvious. | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
What I'll say is that you can definitely make arguments that stats should be higher ranked, maybe even as high as 1 depending on the metric. But I'm sure you agree there are strong arguments the other way around, such as just looking at the strength of rogues play in the last major tournament. And it's a bigger question than head to head, it's "who is an overall scarier player to play against". Rogue looked craaaaazy good against the absolute best players in a high stakes tournament where his blizzcon chances were on the line. And I'm , for better or worse, ignoring most results between super tournament and blizzcon. They are unquestionably suspect in their validity since people are preparing their real and final builds for blizzcon. | ||
Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On October 24 2017 04:05 Rolltide wrote: Olli when you make a rational argument I'll be glad to agree with it. Saying that rankings are based on recent form is as superficial and lame as one can get. I'm not the only one who thinks Stats should be ranked higher than Rogue so I guess many of us are illogical and stupid and bull headed eh. If you can't engage in a vigorous debate then just admit it and walk away. I made points that destroyed your argument(Stats beat Rogue!!!!!) so to get back at me you give me a warning. You are just being a vindictive ass. KBB warned you for triple posting, which we've all told you a hundred times not to do. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On October 24 2017 04:56 Olli wrote: KBB warned you for triple posting, which we've all told you a hundred times not to do. Definition of insanity? | ||
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FXOTheoRy
United States519 Posts
 Rooting for Stats to win the whole thing, strongest player of 2017 in my book! | ||
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Rolltide
United States447 Posts
KBB warned you for triple posting, which we've all told you a hundred times not to do. Now look who is exaggerating. | ||
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
It's not that big of an exaggeration. | ||
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Rolltide
United States447 Posts
Wait it was a 3-2? How can you use a close series as your primal argument that one player is unquestionably better than the other as a whole. Even disregarding how close it was, if we used head to head as our metric, we might as well disregard this ranking and use the unofficial world champion one. Had Rogue won that match I guarantee you people would be using that as an argument for why he should be ranked ahead of Stats. | ||
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p1cass0
46 Posts
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
On October 24 2017 06:26 p1cass0 wrote: To be honest, the reason Rogue being so hype right now is mostly his STORY about the last-minute-victory to Blizzcon. No one considered him as one of the best before ST2. His ST2 run was impressive but not dominant. Those wins against INno and herO were very clutch. And he performed after ST2 just like an average korean. Don't forget the fact that zerg was pretty favoured in the last two months. Talking about recent form, herO is the real beast. And his beast-mode late game ZvT! | ||
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Boggyb
2855 Posts
On October 24 2017 06:26 p1cass0 wrote: To be honest, the reason Rogue being so hype right now is mostly his STORY about the last-minute-victory to Blizzcon. No one considered him as one of the best before ST2. His ST2 run was impressive but not dominant. Those wins against INno and herO were very clutch. And he performed after ST2 just like an average korean. Don't forget the fact that zerg was pretty favoured in the last two months. Talking about recent form, herO is the real beast. I considered him to be one of the best before ST2. His recent performances in premier tournaments: IEM Shanghai- Win GSL- Lost 2-3 in the Ro8 SSL Challenge- 4th though he played like he didn't care. (not surprising that he focused on other tournaments that granted him 2017 WCS points rather than potential points if he gets to premier in 2018) Had he played in GSL vs The World, I'd have ranked him as #1 and Innovation as #2 going in since it was right after IEM Shanghai. That was at least in the discussion of top form over the last few months. | ||
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Zaros
United Kingdom3692 Posts
As for recent online results I don't think anyone who is qualified for blizzcon is playing their best at the moment probably more important to keep your powder dry. | ||
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Snarosc
France66 Posts
This terran fanboyism is becoming ridiculous at this point. Just looking at Inno's last 10 matches : 5W - 5L 2 Loss against Stats 1 Loss against herO 1 Loss against aLive 1 Loss against TY 5 wins against : Solar Trap Creator aLive Bunny. Losing against the Top, winning against the mids. WOW... The definition of peaking... GOAT. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On October 24 2017 08:03 Snarosc wrote: I can already see Innovation being #1 just for the sake of Innovation being Innovation. This terran fanboyism is becoming ridiculous at this point. Just looking at Inno's last 10 matches : 5W - 5L 2 Loss against Stats 1 Loss against herO 1 Loss against aLive 1 Loss against TY 5 wins against : Solar Trap Creator aLive Bunny. Losing against the Top, winning against the mids. WOW... The definition of peaking... GOAT. .............. 1. This Blizzcon PR, like every other PR, measures current form. Therefore, it completely disregards any results older than a few months. 2. GOAT is a title awarded to the player with the most achievements across their career lifetime. Therefore, it completely disregards current form. 3. Every single one of the 10 matches you cited was played online, during the time immediately preceding Blizzcon. Online tourneys are an unreliable indicator of form in the best of times, and right before Blizzcon is about as far from that as could possibly be. Welding three different measures of three separate things into the most poorly-supported attack on the alleged bias of TL writers I have ever had the misfortune to read.........truly, I am impressed. It takes real work to craft an argument so utterly wrong in every aspect imaginable. Oh, and the accusation of "Terran fanboyism" took the cake. That level of hypocritical irony is usually reserved for Alex Jones and his ilk. Thank you. Mondays can always use a good long laugh. | ||
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Snarosc
France66 Posts
On October 24 2017 08:47 pvsnp wrote: .............. 1. This Blizzcon PR, like every other PR, measures current form. Therefore, it completely disregards any results older than a few months. 2. GOAT is a title awarded to the player with the most achievements across their career lifetime. Therefore, it completely disregards current form. 3. Every single one of the 10 matches you cited was played online, during the time immediately preceding Blizzcon. Online tourneys are an unreliable indicator of form in the best of times, and right before Blizzcon is about as far from that as could possibly be. Welding three different measures of three separate things into the most poorly-supported attack on the alleged bias of TL writers I have ever had the misfortune to read.........truly, I am impressed. It takes real work to craft an argument so utterly wrong in every aspect imaginable. Oh, and the accusation of "Terran fanboyism" took the cake. That level of hypocritical irony is usually reserved for Alex Jones and his ilk. Thank you. Mondays can always use a good long laugh. 1) Funny, what a familiar sound, again tickling my ears : "online results don't matter".... when it serves your point. Just one little problem on this one : we're just a few days before Blizzcon, 3 days actually, aaaand the last offline tournament was about a month ago (No no, ok ... I admit it.. ST2 was only 23 days ago). Best indicator to measure "current form" right ? We all know nothing changes in a month of SC2. But anyway, let's forget about online results for a second, as you wish : Stats won Starleague.. Literally a month ago, dominating the tournament from start to finish. When at the same time Innovation ended up 5th, not even in the playoffs, and Rogue, well... he barely made it out of Challenge with a 2-3 score in 4th place. Man, to qualify being 4th in a 6 people group, felt like watching Portugal playing Football right there. Anyway, a week before that, Innovation won GSL... Finishing 2nd in Ro16 group stage, Winning 3-2 in Ro8 and 4-3 in semis as well as in Finals, ending up as one, if not the least dominant GSL champion of any season we've ever had. (Oh btw Stats only finished 3rd/4th of that very same tournament) Now, the last tournament, ST2, happened one week after SSL, and saw Rogue taking the tournament in his first result in over 3 months time (basically off the radar before that). ... I mean, looking at these results, What a fool am I to even argue that Stats shouldn't be below Rogue & Innovation. But hey, I just forgot who I was talking to : "Lmao at all the raging Stats fanboys. Blizzcon starts in a few days and your favorite player can demonstrate exactly where he belongs in the PR. PRs measure current form, and Stats peaked around March." "Ayyyy go for it. I want to feast on Stats-fanboy salt and tears." .. Is .. Is that you just... hours ago on this very same thread ? Oh man, "Mondays can always use a good long laugh". Indeed. | ||
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Boggyb
2855 Posts
On October 24 2017 10:47 Snarosc wrote: 1) Funny, what a familiar sound, again tickling my ears : "online results don't matter".... when it serves your point. Just one little problem on this one : we're just a few days before Blizzcon, 3 days actually, aaaand the last offline tournament was about a month ago (No no, ok ... I admit it.. ST2 was only 23 days ago). Best indicator to measure "current form" right ? We all know nothing changes in a month of SC2. But anyway, let's forget about online results for a second, as you wish : Stats won Starleague.. Literally a month ago, dominating the tournament from start to finish. When at the same time Innovation ended up 5th, not even in the playoffs, and Rogue, well... he barely made it out of Challenge with a 2-3 score in 4th place. Man, to qualify being 4th in a 6 people group, felt like watching Portugal playing Football right there. Anyway, a week before that, Innovation won GSL... Finishing 2nd in Ro16 group stage, Winning 3-2 in Ro8 and 4-3 in semis as well as in Finals, ending up as one, if not the least dominant GSL champion of any season we've ever had. (Oh btw Stats only finished 3rd/4th of that very same tournament) Now, the last tournament, ST2, happened one week after SSL, and saw Rogue taking the tournament in his first result in over 3 months time (basically off the radar before that). ... I mean, looking at these results, What a fool am I to even argue that Stats shouldn't be below Rogue & Innovation. But hey, I just forgot who I was talking to : "Lmao at all the raging Stats fanboys. Blizzcon starts in a few days and your favorite player can demonstrate exactly where he belongs in the PR. PRs measure current form, and Stats peaked around March." "Ayyyy go for it. I want to feast on Stats-fanboy salt and tears." .. Is .. Is that you just... hours ago on this very same thread ? Oh man, "Mondays can always use a good long laugh". Indeed. Stats won the SSL finals 4-3. That's not dominating. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On October 24 2017 10:47 Snarosc wrote: 1) Funny, what a familiar sound, again tickling my ears : "online results don't matter".... when it serves your point. Just one little problem on this one : we're just a few days before Blizzcon, 3 days actually, aaaand the last offline tournament was about a month ago (No no, ok ... I admit it.. ST2 was only 23 days ago). Best indicator to measure "current form" right ? We all know nothing changes in a month of SC2. But anyway, let's forget about online results for a second, as you wish : Stats won Starleague.. Literally a month ago, dominating the tournament from start to finish. When at the same time Innovation ended up 5th, not even in the playoffs, and Rogue, well... he barely made it out of Challenge with a 2-3 score in 4th place. Man, to qualify being 4th in a 6 people group, felt like watching Portugal playing Football right there. Anyway, a week before that, Innovation won GSL... Finishing 2nd in Ro16 group stage, Winning 3-2 in Ro8 and 4-3 in semis as well as in Finals, ending up as one, if not the least dominant GSL champion of any season we've ever had. (Oh btw Stats only finished 3rd/4th of that very same tournament) Now, the last tournament, ST2, happened one week after SSL, and saw Rogue taking the tournament in his first result in over 3 months time (basically off the radar before that). ... I mean, looking at these results, What a fool am I to even argue that Stats shouldn't be below Rogue & Innovation. But hey, I just forgot who I was talking to : "Lmao at all the raging Stats fanboys. Blizzcon starts in a few days and your favorite player can demonstrate exactly where he belongs in the PR. PRs measure current form, and Stats peaked around March." "Ayyyy go for it. I want to feast on Stats-fanboy salt and tears." .. Is .. Is that you just... hours ago on this very same thread ? Oh man, "Mondays can always use a good long laugh". Indeed. First of all, thanks for addressing all my points. Your comprehensive reply about conflating current form with lifetime achievement was most enlightening.....oh wait. Well, I guess I shouldn't have expected anything more from you. Now to address your own "points:" 1. "Funny, what a familiar sound, again tickling my ears : "online results don't matter".... when it serves your point." Online results do matter. They just matter less than offline ones. In every scenario. That's my stance, and has always been my stance. Just because you like to use self-serving results doesn't mean everyone else stoops to the same lows. Go on, show me a single post where I ever claimed that online results matter more than offline. I'll wait. And laugh. 2. "Best indicator to measure "current form" right ? We all know nothing changes in a month of SC2." Certainly form can and does change in a month. We just don't have any way of reliably measuring that change right now. That's what Blizzcon is for, yknow the big offline tournament coming in a few days. You may have heard of it. In the meantime, we have to predict with what offline results we have, suboptimal though they may be. Imagine that, using big offline tournament results to predict a big offline tournament. Revolutionary, I know. 3. Some listing of offline results that appears to be accurate, though presented in a blatantly biased manner. Not that I'd expect any better from you. 4. "... I mean, looking at these results, What a fool am I to even argue that Stats shouldn't be below Rogue & Innovation." Nice shifting the goalposts. If you can't win the argument, just change the subject! It works for Donald Trump, right? Your original post made a grand total of 0 mentions of Rogue. It mentioned Stats only in the context of Inno's online matches, nothing to do with Stats's ranking in this PR. It focused completely on Inno, and why Inno somehow would only be #1 due to "Terran fanboyism," citing some recent online results as evidence for slumping. Anytime you want to address the original discussion is fine. Knowing you, I won't hold my breath. At least you are honest about admitting that you are a fool, though. I appreciate that. 4. "But hey, I just forgot who I was talking to :" Somebody who isn't as moronically biased as you? Yeah, I suppose you did forget that. 5. ".. Is .. Is that you just... hours ago on this very same thread ? Oh man, "Mondays can always use a good long laugh". Indeed." Actually, Stats is one of my favorite players. I'm a huge fan of his Rain-esque defensive macro style. Unlike you, I don't allow that favoritism of the player, or his race, to bleed over into assessing how well he is actually playing. It's called rationality, you might want to try it sometime. All in all, I have to say that you continue to impress. It's been so long since I encountered such a sorry excuse for a post here on TL. I daresay your post would fit right in with Bnet rantings. Or even, just maybe, Twitch chat? Do please try again, it's so very entertaining to read what you have to say. Though, I've seen more than enough of your Twitch chat ravings about how everything and everyone under the sun is somehow conspiring against Protoss to know how this ends. I know it must be terribly difficult to construct an argument longer than a sentence fragment, and without even any emotes no less. But please, continue. | ||
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Kaizor
Singapore910 Posts
And if my memory is correct, last years blizzcon pr was even worse. So this one is a slight improvement. | ||
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Phredxor
New Zealand15076 Posts
I'd probably have Stats at #2 myself but i think the top 3 are more or less interchangeable. | ||
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