EPTOn October 24 2017 03:02 Mun_Su wrote:
I can't found it, do someone have the link ?
I can't found it, do someone have the link ?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/467181-code-s-ro8-day-1-preview-season-3#Newsintro1
Stats: KeSPA's Custodian - Rank 3 - Road to BlizzCon - Pag…
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/467181-code-s-ro8-day-1-preview-season-3#Newsintro1 | ||
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Rolltide
United States447 Posts
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Musicus
Germany23580 Posts
On October 24 2017 02:59 pvsnp wrote: There is indeed a perfectly legitimate case for Stats > Rogue. There is also a perfectly legitimate case for Rogue > Stats, and a perfectly legitimate case for Rogue > Inno. Which case actually turns out to be reality is up to the TL writers. They chose Rogue > Stats, and we will find out tomorrow whether they chose Rogue > Inno or Inno > Rogue. But there is no perfeclty legitimate case for Inno > Rogue > Stats. That result only exists if you use double standards or different criteria when comparing Rogue and Stats and Rogue and Inno. | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
I'm not complaining even though I disagree, I'm a statsboy myself :popcorn: More on topic, even though I have strong opinions on the matter, you can justify a lot of different top 5 rankings between stats, dark, hero, inno, and rogue and still be legitimate. Theres no harm in diversity of opinion . | ||
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Gurbak
France622 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On October 24 2017 03:04 Musicus wrote: But there is no perfeclty legitimate case for Inno > Rogue > Stats. That result only exists if you use double standards or different criteria when comparing Rogue and Stats and Rogue and Inno. ??? Of course there is a legitimate case for Inno > Rogue > Stats. Such a case would depend on your definition of "recent." Stats won SSL S2, true enough, but the only other tournament he won before that in 2017 was GSL S1 back in March. On the other hand both Rogue and Inno have tournaments more recently than Stats. Including IEM Shanghai and GSL vs the World, for example, would be a perfectly legitimate way to justify Inno > Rogue > Stats. Point being, the top players (Rogue, Stats, Inno, Dark, herO) are all close enough that it is not at all difficult to justify ordering them in pretty much any arbitrary order. Everyone has their own subjective weighting of the myriad criteria that go into a PR, and that produces a multitude of subjective rankings, many of which are perfectly legitimate. Only fanatically biased fanboys will bitch and moan about their favorite player being one rank too low or some other trivial shit, and only myopic ones would claim a different PR is somehow wrong simply because they disagree. I am a big Stats fan myself, but you don't see me complaining about his rank. If he were ranked #2 or #1 I would be happier, but there's nothing illegitimate about him being #3 either. | ||
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Musicus
Germany23580 Posts
On October 24 2017 03:11 pvsnp wrote: ??? Of course there is a legitimate case for Inno > Rogue > Stats. Such a case would depend on your definition of "recent." Stats won SSL S2, true enough, but the only other tournament he won before that in 2017 was GSL S1 back in March. On the other hand both Rogue and Inno have tournaments more recently than Stats. Including IEM Shanghai and GSL vs the World, for example, would be a perfectly legitimate way to justify Inno > Rogue > Stats. Point being, the top players (Rogue, Stats, Inno, Dark, herO) are all close enough that it is not at all difficult to justify ordering them in pretty much any arbitrary order. Only fanatically biased fanboys will bitch and moan about their favorite player being one rank too low or some other trivial shit. Not really though, since I personally like Rogue more than Stats. He is the reason I've had a JAGW flair for years. I don't care about Maru or sOs. And you can not include GSL vs the world, since it was a fan vote and Rogue didn't even play. Either you include IEM Shanghai and say it's recent form and Rogue is above everybody, or you say best overall this year and Stats and Inno are both above Rogue. That's the point. | ||
Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On October 24 2017 02:50 Rolltide wrote: How was Zest better in 2014? You are making that up. Zest won a GSL and a Kespa. How does that trump a GSL and an SSL? He finished third in points behind Bomber and Hyun with 5800. Stats has over 12000. Innovation had an absolutely monster year and Stats still has more than 2000 points. FYI you gain points by playing well. This is not a figment of somebody's imagination. This is not an opinion of how he played. You EARN points by finishing high in significant tournaments. Stats finished in the top 4 in 6 major tournaments. 6! He won 2 of them and finished 2nd in 2 of them. That is sick! 4 of those tournaments occurred after March. Zest was better in 2014 — he won 3 Korean tournaments (GSL, GSL Global Championship, KeSPA Cup), got second at IEM Toronto, all-killed SKT in a Proleague Round Finals, played a huge part in KT winning the season. Reached the quarterfinals or better of every single tournament he attended leading up to BlizzCon. Got to the semifinals of another GSL where he was one map away from the finals. WCS points don't tell the whole story. But arguing with you is and has always been pointless. You won't listen to rational arguments or people explaining to you that other metrics than the ones you employ are at work here. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On October 24 2017 03:17 Musicus wrote: Not really though, since I personally like Rogue more than Stats. He is the reason I've had a JAGW flair for years. I don't care about Maru or sOs. And you can not include GSL vs the world, since it was a fan vote and Rogue didn't even play. Either you include IEM Shanghai and say it's recent form and Rogue is above everybody, or you say best overall this year and Stats and Inno are both above Rogue. That's the point. Including GSL vs the World or not is exactly the kind of subjective weighting that I described in my earlier post. You say it is not valid because it was an invitational. Another person can say differently because there were undeniably a lot of talented players in attendance. Either is perfectly legitimate, and both produce perfectly legitimate rankings that just so happen to be different (like Inno > Rogue > Stats). | ||
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On October 24 2017 03:20 Olli wrote: WCS points don't tell the whole story. But arguing with you is and has always been pointless. You won't listen to rational arguments or people explaining to you that other metrics than the ones you employ are at work here. Savage. That being said, I don't exactly disagree....I thought it more in keeping with decorum to politely disregard the irrational posts, though. | ||
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Musicus
Germany23580 Posts
On October 24 2017 03:23 Olli wrote: GSL vs the World being an invitational doesn't invalidate the play that happened there. It does if you want to compare the winner of the tournament with a player who did not have the chance to play there. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On October 24 2017 03:28 Musicus wrote: It does if you want to compare the winner of the tournament with a player who did not have the chance to play there. Rogue not having the chance to play there simply means that we treat the tournament as a net zero for him. For Inno it was a net positive, because he won the tournament. For sOs it was a net negative because he lost to Neeb. And so on and so forth. That is one valid way to treat GSL vs the World. There are others. | ||
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Musicus
Germany23580 Posts
On October 24 2017 03:31 pvsnp wrote: Rogue not having the chance to play there simply means that we treat the tournament as a net zero for him. For Inno it was a net positive, because he won the tournament. For sOs it was a net negative because he lost to Neeb. And so on and so forth. That is one valid way to treat GSL vs the World. There are others. Okay sure, then let's do a Rogue showmatch series and never invite Inno to it and count them too. Anyway, I was just stating my opinion and what would render this PR irrelevant to me. You or the writers don't have to agree and the articles are still great regardless of the ranking. | ||
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franzji
United States583 Posts
though you could mention that rogue could not even play in gsl vs. the world only 2 months ago because he didn't even have enough wcs points, lol. consistency > two recent tournament wins in any betting or rating. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On October 24 2017 02:50 Rolltide wrote: How was Zest better in 2014? You are making that up. Zest won a GSL and a Kespa. How does that trump a GSL and an SSL? He finished third in points behind Bomber and Hyun with 5800. Stats has over 12000. Innovation had an absolutely monster year and Stats still has more than 2000 points. FYI you gain points by playing well. This is not a figment of somebody's imagination. This is not an opinion of how he played. You EARN points by finishing high in significant tournaments. Stats finished in the top 4 in 6 major tournaments. 6! He won 2 of them and finished 2nd in 2 of them. That is sick! 4 of those tournaments occurred after March. Out of the 7 major korean tourmanents in 2014 (GSL 1/2/3, GSL world cup, kespa cup, hot6 cup, and proleague) Zest won 4, got 2 ro4s and one ro8. His 2014, MVPs 2011, and Inno's 2017 are hands down the best runs of all time. Stats isn't far behind though And WCS points are a usless comparison. The point distribution is completely different now, and Stats had more tournaments that he competed in due to proleague being a big focus back in 2014. Zest was still the number 1 ranked WCS korea player in 2014, so in that sense they're still even | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On October 24 2017 03:37 Musicus wrote: Okay sure, then let's do a Rogue showmatch series and never invite Inno to it and count them too. Anyway, I was just stating my opinion and what would render this PR irrelevant to me. You or the writers don't have to agree and the articles are still great regardless of the ranking. If Rogue had a showmatch series, I would have no problem counting it. Such a series would be information about Rogue's current form. There's no need to discard information simply because it is not exhaustive and doesn't inform us about Inno's current form. I'm glad you can draw the distinction between appreciation and agreement though. That's a rare talent around here. On October 24 2017 03:39 youngjiddle wrote: I don't get how tournament wins are valued so much higher than getting far in the tournament also. Rogue managed to get past ro8 only twice this whole year I think. meanwhile stats did it 7 times this year if you count Gyeonggi, that's 7 semi-finals or finals. though you could mention that rogue could not even play in gsl vs. the world only 2 months ago because he didn't even have enough wcs points, lol. consistency > two recent tournament wins in any betting or rating. You don't get it because you overlooked the multiple reiterations of how a PR measures current form. Allow me to repeat: PRs measure current form. Consistency across 2017 is irrelevant. Immaterial. Outside the scope of this article, and all 16 articles in this Road to Blizzcon series. You are complaining that your speedometer does not tell you the color of your car. 2016 IEM results have no bearing whatsoever on a 2017 Blizzcon PR | ||
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Rolltide
United States447 Posts
If you can't engage in a vigorous debate then just admit it and walk away. I made points that destroyed your argument(Stats beat Rogue!!!!!) so to get back at me you give me a warning. You are just being a vindictive ass. | ||
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Rolltide
United States447 Posts
And WCS points are a usless comparison. The point distribution is completely different now, and Stats had more tournaments that he competed in due to proleague being a big focus back in 2014. Zest was still the number 1 ranked WCS korea player in 2014, so in that sense they're still even The issue with WCS points is that Stats has by far the most of any player this year. Putting Rogue ahead of Stats would be like putting SoO ahead of Zest in 2014. SoO was in better form in late October. | ||
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DSK
England1110 Posts
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