EPTCommunity Update - September 21 - Page 3
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Dav1oN
Ukraine3164 Posts
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Woosixion
121 Posts
Mules will no longer be able to mine gas from refineries, but their mineral return rate will change back to 25 from 20. Terran players haven’t benefitted much from this change and the mineral return rate reduction change was seen as a nerf for bio players. We are putting this idea on the shelf for now, but we can bring it back for future testing if we see an opportunity for this type of change. Um, i thought thats EXACTLY what this was. Come on, lets be real here... bio scales too well compared to all of the other compositions in the game | ||
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xTJx
Brazil419 Posts
On September 22 2017 08:01 Vutalisk wrote: All changes look good to me. The amount of whining against Z is ridiculous. A minor change in speed of overlords which allows the overlords to arrive at the opponent's base a bit faster. It is harmless in general and people whine excessively about it. But then when Blizzard decided to buff the Thor extra +1 armor for no reason, Terran downplayed it as nothing. You guys are the simply the "best". Ikr, the "swarm" already lost it's economic advantage and the 4 larva inject. Now people don't want the reactive race to be able to scout and react. | ||
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Snarosc
France66 Posts
On September 22 2017 08:33 DieuCure wrote: WM will be dead in TvT too, the nerf is a bad idea, protoss try to open without obs, i dont know why terran should be nerf. When we talk about storm they say "ghost", well so, wm -> obs. TvZ is hard nowadays but with this underpowered WM it will be even harder. Widow mines wont be dead, stop being over dramatic. The thing is that this cheap af unit (75/25) is almost always worth its cost with the first shot only. Now making it visible after firing doesnt prevent that 1st shot to do massive damage like we can see today. Lets take an example we've seen happen a countless amount of time where a Protoss gets dropped early with widow mines and is nowhere near having detection. Its game over because you lose probes and mining time for too long, all that due to 2 units that together costs 150-50. You'll tell me : "Thats what happens to us Terrans with DT's". Except going DT is always a risk because it's a massive investment. Doing a 2-4 widow mines drop isnt a risk, because even if it does no damage (which never happens because you always sack one probe or drone per mine to tank the shot) it is so cheap that you just wont be far behind. And don't talk about the oracle, today you cant even punish an empty mineral line with the 150/150 unit just out of fear that this sneaky 75/25 widow mine might be hiding somewhere in there even when it's not. The idea here is to, while allowing the mine to have massive damage if not spotted (its original purpose), prevent its ridiculous propensity to have game ending damage given its cost. It's either that or increase its cost big time. p.s : your argument that a Protoss should open with robo-> obs is ridiculous. Protoss have different tech paths, which involve getting some buildings late. unlike terran who will always get the factory and starport rather quickly anyway. | ||
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xTJx
Brazil419 Posts
On September 22 2017 08:10 youngjiddle wrote: Classic introduces mass oracle and PvZ winrates normalize to 50%, better nerf it so we go back to 43% again  Yeah dude, just because oracles prevent lings from denying the protoss third, deny any nydus counter attack as they also kill buildings and queens fast, obliterate any transfering drones or queens outside spore cover, can harass your drones the whole game with stasis, can just jump on zerg bases once they're about 10 as they kill everything before your units can get there, force infestors as even hydras die to mass oracle, can give infinite vision of zerg's army, can place infinite defensive stasis wards on key locations, are faster than mutas and way faster than corruptors, doesn't mean they're bad game design. | ||
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DSh1
292 Posts
On September 22 2017 08:49 Dav1oN wrote: okay, if they wanna make oracle with normal damage - make it also benefit from air upgrades at least curious about this one. Seems to be an inconsistency since spell damage was always spell damage until now. If I understand correctly, it is still an ability though? | ||
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ReaVeR.mma
8 Posts
Glad the old mule is back aswell. The new one seemed like to much of a gimmick. | ||
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Snarosc
France66 Posts
On September 22 2017 09:32 xTJx wrote: Yeah dude, just because oracles prevent lings from denying the protoss third, deny any nydus counter attack as they also kill buildings and queens fast, obliterate any transfering drones or queens outside spore cover, can harass your drones the whole game with stasis, can just jump on zerg bases once they're about 10 as they kill everything before your units can get there, force infestors as even hydras die to mass oracle, can give infinite vision of zerg's army, can place infinite defensive stasis wards on key locations, are faster than mutas and way faster than corruptors, doesn't mean they're bad game design. And yet he's right. Mass oracles in PvZ hasnt had a 100% winrate since it started, quite far from that. And even if Oracles needed to be changed, the PvZ has been zerg favored for months now. With the removal of the mothership core and nothing to balance its disparition, I can already see the Protoss winrates in PvZ go below 40% for the 1st time. (We werent that far a few weeks/months ago) | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On September 22 2017 09:55 Snarosc wrote: And yet he's right. Mass oracles in PvZ hasnt had a 100% winrate since it started, quite far from that. And even if Oracles needed to be changed, the PvZ has been zerg favored for months now. With the removal of the mothership core and nothing to balance its disparition, I can already see the Protoss winrates in PvZ go below 40% for the 1st time. (We werent that far a few weeks/months ago) 3rax reaper in TvZ didn't have a 100% winrate since it started, quite far from that. 3rax reaper was actually quite balanced according to the winrates. It was also incredibly toxic, terrible to watch and play against, and widely hated by everyone who wasn't actually abusing it. After being exploited and becoming semi-standard in the meta, it was promptly nerfed by Blizzard (several times). Now replace "3rax reaper" with "3-stargate Oracle," in the above paragraph. That being said, I do recognize that 3-stargate Oracle is a direct result of Hydra/Ling/Bane's strength in ZvP. Hell, LBH is standard in ZvT as well, and a single style dominating both matchups sets off a couple red flags for me. Personally, I'd like to see the Hydra +10 hp buff reverted. | ||
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xTJx
Brazil419 Posts
On September 22 2017 10:02 pvsnp wrote: 3rax reaper in TvZ didn't have a 100% winrate since it started, quite far from that. 3rax reaper was actually quite balanced according to the winrates. It was also incredibly toxic, terrible to watch and play against, and widely hated by everyone who wasn't actually abusing it. After being exploited and becoming semi-standard in the meta, it was promptly nerfed by Blizzard (several times). Now replace "3rax reaper" with "3-stargate Oracle." Yes, that's the point the community doesn't see. The game is suposed to be good first, then balanced second. Bad game design will make players frustated and viewers bored, leading them away. Also, players are not robots and the meta changes from time to time. You can't just expect 50% winrates at all times, and even with your statistics saying protoss is losing, sOs and Stats eliminated Solar and Rogue in the last GSL quarterfinals. | ||
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franzji
United States583 Posts
On September 22 2017 09:32 xTJx wrote: Yeah dude, just because oracles prevent lings from denying the protoss third, deny any nydus counter attack as they also kill buildings and queens fast, obliterate any transfering drones or queens outside spore cover, can harass your drones the whole game with stasis, can just jump on zerg bases once they're about 10 as they kill everything before your units can get there, force infestors as even hydras die to mass oracle, can give infinite vision of zerg's army, can place infinite defensive stasis wards on key locations, are faster than mutas and way faster than corruptors, doesn't mean they're bad game design. Have you considered the possibility that you are bad and haven't used the correct counter play yet. | ||
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Finch518
United States34 Posts
On September 22 2017 07:01 highsis wrote: I hate oracle changes. It's been only like weeks since Classic first showed mass oracle strategy, which had never even been dominant, and it's already getting nerfed? It was an interesting strategy to watch. Flat out completely wrong. Maybe you think a spellcaster air unit being able to defeat ground to air armies is "interesting" but literally no-one else does. The proposed changes I think are great, no number tweaks, just cooldowns and damage type adjustments. Keep in mind when an oracle is bum rushing your mineral line in the early game noones going to have Armor upgrades so the point is kind of moot. The timer on Stasis Ward is going to increase the skill ceiling of the ability, making it so Oracle players can differentiate themselves between the "good" and the "great". Overall excellent changes, the new balance team has been impressive so far imo. | ||
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Finch518
United States34 Posts
On September 22 2017 11:07 youngjiddle wrote: Have you considered the possibility that you are bad and haven't used the correct counter play yet. Funny because Scarlett made all these same points on reddit the other day, i guess shes bad and doesnt have the counter play yet either? Neither does Rogue, or SoO too amirite? | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16129 Posts
It might seem minor to people that don't play Zerg, but in the ZvZ match up these buffs to Overlords will make the match up far less coin flippy and chaotic on ladder. | ||
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franzji
United States583 Posts
On September 22 2017 11:25 Finch518 wrote: Funny because Scarlett made all these same points on reddit the other day, i guess shes bad and doesnt have the counter play yet either? Neither does Rogue, or SoO too amirite? Ah yes Scarlett the zerg who is queen of balance whining about protoss and SoO the zerg who wants the hydra range buff, I don't take any pro players opinions very strongly. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
On September 22 2017 05:04 FarmI3oy wrote: Protoss, I weep for you. Those best be tears of joy. Removing the MSC and Photon Overcharge are the best things Blizzard has ever done. I remember I felt they were terrible decisions when introduced, but I never thought they'd admit it. I haven't been so excited as Protoss players since... ever. All of this moves the game in the right direction. | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
On September 22 2017 13:39 BronzeKnee wrote: Those best be tears of joy. Removing the MSC and Photon Overcharge are the best things Blizzard has ever done. I remember I felt they were terrible decisions when introduced, but I never thought they'd admit it. I haven't been so excited as Protoss players since... ever. All of this moves the game in the right direction. While I certainly share the sentiment, I am worried that protoss as it is on the test map wont be strong enough without it. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16129 Posts
On September 22 2017 13:39 BronzeKnee wrote: Those best be tears of joy. Removing the MSC and Photon Overcharge are the best things Blizzard has ever done. I remember I felt they were terrible decisions when introduced, but I never thought they'd admit it. I haven't been so excited as Protoss players since... ever. All of this moves the game in the right direction. I liked the Mothership Core's ORIGINAL implementation that had it as a unit that was attached to a Nexus and could warp from nexus to nexus wherever it was needed. It was unique, it was strictly for base defense and macro management and it was just plain more interesting. Then using the dumbest logic I've ever heard (it didnt feel like a unit) they let it fly freely and almost immediately people started complaining about it. | ||
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hiroshOne
Poland425 Posts
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weikor
Austria580 Posts
I dont see the problem with swarmhosts beeing able to spawn units - at a small cost - similar to carriers - they could even be stronger than they currently are. I think that would definitely be healthy for zergs endgame. | ||
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