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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51458 Posts
![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CM809rKWoAAiV0C.jpg)
Terran 
Raven
The Raven’s Shredder Missile impact damage is not very high at the moment, so the initial delay can be lowered a bit to increase the chances for the ability to connect. The delay duration is being decreased from 2.9 to 1.4 to help with this. Next, the Raven’s Repair Drone’s healing range radius is being increased from 4 to 6 to allow mech units more maneuverability on the field. Lastly, the Scrambler Missile can now affect mechanical and psionic units. This should open up more opportunities for the ability in all matchups.
Mule
Mules will no longer be able to mine gas from refineries, but their mineral return rate will change back to 25 from 20. Terran players haven’t benefitted much from this change and the mineral return rate reduction change was seen as a nerf for bio players. We are putting this idea on the shelf for now, but we can bring it back for future testing if we see an opportunity for this type of change.
Protoss 
Oracle
Stasis Wards are versatile, but their stats could use some minor adjustments. We will be experimenting with the following changes: First, Stasis Wards will have a 170 second timed life duration; this addition should help balance situations where Stasis Fields are numerous across the map. Next, Stasis Wards will no longer affects larva or eggs. Currently, Stasis Wards work on zerg larva and eggs, so zerg production is more heavily affected than the other races. We feel this isn’t super interesting, as it delays unit interaction. Also, map layouts will no longer affect the Stasis Ward’s effectiveness, as this means bases where mineral lines start on the same side as larva are no longer more vulnerable to Stasis Wards. This change should help make this ability’s effect more consistent across different maps and races.
We are also experimenting with making the Pulsar Beam do normal damage instead of spell damage, which means it will be affected by armor. This change introduces the idea of the Pulsar Beam falling off in effectiveness as the game goes on, or if an opponent decides to invest in armor upgrades early on.
Shield Battery
The Shield Battery provides protoss units defensive support, but we believe this could be improved. The Shield Battery will now start at 100 energy, the max energy capacity will be reduced from 200 to 100, and the shield recharge range will increase from 4 to 6. These changes will allow the Shield Battery to be effective right away after warping into the battlefield while also reducing its effectiveness late game if constructed in large numbers due to the reduced maximum energy. The Shield Battery’s increased recharge range should also allow players more mobility in defensive situations.
Stalker
Fixed a bug where Stalker’s Particle Disruptor weapon was only receiving +1 per upgrade to its base damage. It will now receive +2 per upgrade as intended.
Adept
Protoss scouting options were reduced a bit with the removal of the Mothership Core. To provide protoss with sufficient scouting tools, the Adept’s Shade vision will be increased from 2 to 4 to allow for better scouting opportunities.
Zerg 
Viper
Parasitic Bomb’s damage felt a bit too high to properly counter. The Parasitic Bomb damage will be reduced from 180 to 120 to open up opportunities to recover for the defending player.
Overlord
Zerg scouting relies heavily on Overlords in certain matchups, such as ZvZ. With the increased worker count in Legacy of the Void resulting in a quicker pace, we received feedback that Overlords arrive at enemy bases just slightly too late. To try and provide zerg with more scouting opportunities, the Overlord’s base movement speed will be increased from 0.82 to 0.902 and the Evolved Pneumatized Carapace upgrade will still increase the Overlord’s movement speed to the same value of 2.63.
Lastly, the next season is quickly approaching. To start preparations, we’ll be turning off the testing matchmaking queue on October 13. This will allow us to start finalizing changes for the next season, like implementing art assets and bug fixing. The balance test mod will still be available online for players to use.
Link To Blog of Updated Changes!
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Nice!
By the way I have noticed, when blizzard says "this isnt very interesting" they mean, "this needs to be fixed".
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Oracle pulsar beam change may be nice, what do you think?
I also appreciate the increase in sight of the adept (though I fear the level of whining for this will be unprecedented..)
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Can't find anything egregious in these changes.
Feels like Protoss really got the bulk of the changes (to be fair the existence/nonexistence of the MSC is a super-important aspect of Protoss), Zerg got a few, and Terran barely changed at all. Not sure if this is a good or bad thing.
On the whole, I like this 2017 version of 3.8 and I'm looking forward to see how the meta reacts.
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Thank god for the Pulsar Beam change
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Love the oracle and overlord changes.
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i like the pulsar beam idea, but it is still does 1x15 dmg (i wonder what difference this makes against 1 base armor queens),
maybe they should split it into 2x7 (just like the marauder nerf).
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Yay for the mule change. Gaz mules were stupid and encouraged turtle play.
However, why not have the scrambler missile work against bio too? It won't be a problem in TvZ since ultras are already immune to movement altering spells : the description of the ultra's passive could be changed to make it immune to the scrambler missile.
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On September 22 2017 04:58 pvsnp wrote:
Feels like Protoss really got the bulk of the changes (to be fair the existence/nonexistence of the MSC is a super-important aspect of Protoss), Zerg got a few, and Terran barely changed at all. Not sure if this is a good or bad thing.
well i really like how they reworked the Raven to be a support unit. remembering what Terran air looked like day-1-LotV versus what it is now .. it has been a huge nerf to Sky Terran armies. and i think that's very good.
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I would love to see more experimentation with mules being able to mine gas. While the change may seem to have had little effect, it is a viable divergent option that should be given every opportunity to have impact. Are there problems it has caused?
It made no sense to me why mineral income for Terrans was nerfed when the gas mining option was introduced. Mules compensate for two unique facts about Terran macro:
1. Terrans do not have chronoboost or multiple larvae to quickly produce multiple workers
2. SCV's must be pulled off the line for construction and repair duties.
Anything that leads to more decision making and less rote operations in regard to macro mechanics is a good thing, which is a balance they are trying to strike presently for protoss and one they have accomplished pretty well for zerg already. I think there are options for mules on gas to be useful, and the penalty of not getting the mineral income while gaining the gas income is already strong enough.
I've played about 25 games on this patch, and mech is really gas intensive when you want to get Ravens in addition to 4 factory production. I wonder if this has had adequate experimentation.
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On September 22 2017 05:06 bela.mervado wrote:
i like the pulsar beam idea, but it is still does 1x15 dmg (i wonder what difference this makes against 1 base armor queens),
maybe they should split it into 2x7 (just like the marauder nerf).
maybe the oracle should do no damage, only the beam itself.
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Are these changes for the test map or regular ladder?
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Wow, I like the ideas presented!
I can't however really warm up for the shield battery as a defensive tool (it is fun for some rushes though xD).
Like, Photon overcharge, and even Nexus shield regen were given for free(or a one time investment) and were stronger.
However, we do have free Recall now if we get caught out of position, so shield battery is probably meant for holding some very specific early timings. I am not to much in the loop.
What do other Protosses think of the shield battery in Sc2?
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On September 22 2017 05:26 NutriaKaiN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 05:06 bela.mervado wrote:
i like the pulsar beam idea, but it is still does 1x15 dmg (i wonder what difference this makes against 1 base armor queens),
maybe they should split it into 2x7 (just like the marauder nerf). maybe the oracle should do no damage, only the beam itself.
It should only be used to /dance on top of the opponent's army during battles, to have the nice light effects 
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I Like the Protoss, Zerg and Mule changes but i'm not sure about the Raven changes, especially the change top the scrambler Missile.
The Problem is, it is way more easier to disable 4 vipers with only one full energy Raven than sniping them with vikings. without blinding clouds the zerg army gets distoryed by tanks and can't buy enougth time tomorrow get broodlord Out.
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To try and provide zerg with more scouting opportunities, the Overlord’s base movement speed will be increased from 0.82 to 0.902 and the Evolved Pneumatized Carapace upgrade will still increase the Overlord’s movement speed to the same value of 2.63.
Is it really necessary ?
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Faster overlords is a godsend even if it's only a 10% increase.
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I hate oracle changes. It's been only like weeks since Classic first showed mass oracle strategy, which had never even been dominant, and it's already getting nerfed? It was an interesting strategy to watch.
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On September 22 2017 06:59 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Faster overlords is a godsend even if it's only a 10% increase.
Sure, free ups are godsend for any race, but why ?
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Overlords already got a speed buff and are already decently fast. Buffing it more will just make aggression against zerg very, very hard.
Why buff the overlord's speed for scouting purposes where a mere 100/100 can grant zerg undisputed and safe early vision of the entire map and the opponent's base?
Enough with the random zerg buffs please.
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Here we are and they still don't have the removal of the MSC figured out. And at this point they won't be able to do it with the test map. People's interest in the test server has evaporated and finding high level partners is problematic. We just don't get enough data to even tell for certain if new changes are the correct ones.
You're forcing every protoss player to literally relearn entirely new ways to play the game. To compensate for this you should provide a crutch to help with the process. Something which will help the race maintain it's footing and can be reverted later.
I do believe after six months of live data the team will have these changes balanced. The problem is we know for certain which race will under achieve during those six months and that's wrong.
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On September 22 2017 07:01 highsis wrote:
I hate oracle changes. It's been only like weeks since Classic first showed mass oracle strategy, which had never even been dominant, and it's already getting nerfed? It was an interesting strategy to watch.
Found the Protoss
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On September 22 2017 07:34 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 07:01 highsis wrote:
I hate oracle changes. It's been only like weeks since Classic first showed mass oracle strategy, which had never even been dominant, and it's already getting nerfed? It was an interesting strategy to watch. Found the Protoss
Found the usual anti-protoss Terran.
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wow I should balance whine from now on, it seems to work well.
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On September 22 2017 07:02 DieuCure wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 06:59 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Faster overlords is a godsend even if it's only a 10% increase. Sure, free ups are godsend for any race, but why ?
Early game scouting is easier, let's you see those pesky cheeses quicker. Pretty self explanatory stuff, it's just a nice boost that fits the speed of LotV a little better
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The problem with overlord scouting is actually that the vertical distance (shortest distance between home bases) on most maps these days is too large. It is NOT an issue with overlord speed, which you can make insanely fast for a cheap upgrade. If you want a large map, just make the horizontal distances larger.
Even making the map like Pac-man would be a better fix than increasing base overlord speed.
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On September 22 2017 07:35 Snarosc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 07:34 pvsnp wrote:On September 22 2017 07:01 highsis wrote:
I hate oracle changes. It's been only like weeks since Classic first showed mass oracle strategy, which had never even been dominant, and it's already getting nerfed? It was an interesting strategy to watch. Found the Protoss Found the usual anti-protoss Terran.
Found the guy who guessed wrong.
Oh wait, are you the Snaro who incessantly bitches about Terran in every twitch chat I've seen? The guy who could pass as avilo if avilo played Protoss?
In that case, I'm delighted that you disagree. Now if you agreed, then I'd be worried.....
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On September 22 2017 07:37 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 07:02 DieuCure wrote:On September 22 2017 06:59 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Faster overlords is a godsend even if it's only a 10% increase. Sure, free ups are godsend for any race, but why ? Early game scouting is easier, let's you see those pesky cheeses quicker. Pretty self explanatory stuff, it's just a nice boost that fits the speed of LotV a little better
It is already 2 * faster than HoTS ...
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All changes look good to me.
The amount of whining against Z is ridiculous. A minor change in speed of overlords which allows the overlords to arrive at the opponent's base a bit faster. It is harmless in general and people whine excessively about it. But then when Blizzard decided to buff the Thor extra +1 armor for no reason, Terran downplayed it as nothing. You guys are the simply the "best".
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On September 22 2017 07:49 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 07:35 Snarosc wrote:On September 22 2017 07:34 pvsnp wrote:On September 22 2017 07:01 highsis wrote:
I hate oracle changes. It's been only like weeks since Classic first showed mass oracle strategy, which had never even been dominant, and it's already getting nerfed? It was an interesting strategy to watch. Found the Protoss Found the usual anti-protoss Terran. Found the guy who guessed wrong. Oh wait, are you the Snaro who incessantly bitches about Terran in every twitch chat I've seen? The guy who could pass as avilo if avilo played Protoss? In that case, I'm delighted that you disagree. Now if you agreed, then I'd be worried.....
How many times will you edit that post ?
And come on, don't tell me you ever take this twitch chat seriously. I'm already subbed to Avilo, the irony for a Protoss who supposedly "hates" Terran right ?  (I know, I should get a ban just for that)
Anyway, 3 nerfs to 1 unit in 1 patch, that's a first. Not sure if Protoss is the race that should be nerfed in PvZ IF there was one race to be nerfed.
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On September 22 2017 08:04 Snarosc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 07:49 pvsnp wrote:On September 22 2017 07:35 Snarosc wrote:On September 22 2017 07:34 pvsnp wrote:On September 22 2017 07:01 highsis wrote:
I hate oracle changes. It's been only like weeks since Classic first showed mass oracle strategy, which had never even been dominant, and it's already getting nerfed? It was an interesting strategy to watch. Found the Protoss Found the usual anti-protoss Terran. Found the guy who guessed wrong. Oh wait, are you the Snaro who incessantly bitches about Terran in every twitch chat I've seen? The guy who could pass as avilo if avilo played Protoss? In that case, I'm delighted that you disagree. Now if you agreed, then I'd be worried..... How many times will you edit that post ? And come on, don't tell me you ever take this twitch chat seriously. I'm already subbed to Avilo, the irony for a Protoss who supposedly "hates" Terran right ? Anyway, 3 nerfs to 1 unit in 1 patch, that's a first. Not sure if Protoss is the race that should be nerfed in PvZ IF there was one race to be nerfed.
Your firsts post on TL are against terran.
You aren't the smart one here .
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Classic introduces mass oracle and PvZ winrates normalize to 50%, better nerf it so we go back to 43% again 
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I'm not playing SC2 nowadays. Has the last major balance patch changed the game significantly? How is it different for protoss?
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On September 22 2017 08:04 Snarosc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 07:49 pvsnp wrote:On September 22 2017 07:35 Snarosc wrote:On September 22 2017 07:34 pvsnp wrote:On September 22 2017 07:01 highsis wrote:
I hate oracle changes. It's been only like weeks since Classic first showed mass oracle strategy, which had never even been dominant, and it's already getting nerfed? It was an interesting strategy to watch. Found the Protoss Found the usual anti-protoss Terran. Found the guy who guessed wrong. Oh wait, are you the Snaro who incessantly bitches about Terran in every twitch chat I've seen? The guy who could pass as avilo if avilo played Protoss? In that case, I'm delighted that you disagree. Now if you agreed, then I'd be worried..... How many times will you edit that post ? And come on, don't tell me you ever take this twitch chat seriously. I'm already subbed to Avilo, the irony for a Protoss who supposedly "hates" Terran right ? (I know, I should get a ban just for that) Anyway, 3 nerfs to 1 unit in 1 patch, that's a first. Not sure if Protoss is the race that should be nerfed in PvZ IF there was one race to be nerfed.
I've never seen you anywhere besides Twitch chat, what am I supposed to go off? As far as first impressions on TL go, you haven't exactly impressed either.
A known Protoss whiner starts whining on TL. Gee, I wonder what the response will be.
If you want to change peoples' minds, you have to make an effort.
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On September 22 2017 08:04 Snarosc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 07:49 pvsnp wrote:On September 22 2017 07:35 Snarosc wrote:On September 22 2017 07:34 pvsnp wrote:On September 22 2017 07:01 highsis wrote:
I hate oracle changes. It's been only like weeks since Classic first showed mass oracle strategy, which had never even been dominant, and it's already getting nerfed? It was an interesting strategy to watch. Found the Protoss Found the usual anti-protoss Terran. Found the guy who guessed wrong. Oh wait, are you the Snaro who incessantly bitches about Terran in every twitch chat I've seen? The guy who could pass as avilo if avilo played Protoss? In that case, I'm delighted that you disagree. Now if you agreed, then I'd be worried..... How many times will you edit that post ? And come on, don't tell me you ever take this twitch chat seriously. I'm already subbed to Avilo, the irony for a Protoss who supposedly "hates" Terran right ? (I know, I should get a ban just for that) Anyway, 3 nerfs to 1 unit in 1 patch, that's a first. Not sure if Protoss is the race that should be nerfed in PvZ IF there was one race to be nerfed.
You are the one who can't be taken seriously, and you even confirm that, what the heck?
About the changes they look nice, I enjoyed a lot playing Protoss, it reminds me of the old nice WoL days, like WhiteRa taught us "We expand then defend", not "Expand and YOLO, get Pylons and 1 MotherCore".
I am worried about the Adept vision change tho... but since Mother Core is not a problem anymore I think they will be "Ok" and not needing a nerf (even if most players start abusing them for All In again)
Also something I noticed is Stalkers are now again a way to go for All In or at least early pressure since Blink is still good and Upgrades give +2, scout will be even more important than before for all races and I understand the Zerg change because of that.
The only think I disliked is the nerf to Stasis Wards... I don't know, why do they need to put a nerf to its time? It is almost like Creep IMO, you set it there and unless your enemy don't try to clear it up it's your map vision and your tool to play with, I don't care about the Stasis Ward not affectinv Larvae but I hate it getting a timing on it and it is not really large, since you spam it when your Oracles can't harass and has full enegy, but bow it will be worthless and you need to start the cast of them when you see your enemy moving... so they arrive and you don't have energy for Pulsar Beam lol
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On September 22 2017 08:17 sc-darkness wrote:
I'm not playing SC2 nowadays. Has the last major balance patch changed the game significantly? How is it different for protoss?
This is all talk about the Testmap, which prepares the next major patch.
The Mothershipcore got removed, so Pylon overcharge is gone. Chrono uses energy again. We get shield battery, Stalkers play different. Disruptors got changed (not really viable yet imo). Collossi becomes more of a hard counter against light units. With these suggested changes oracles get fixed.
Nicest for protoss is, that widowmines now are visible while they reload
Patch probably hits after Blizzcon, if you wanna check SC2 out again, that be a good time.
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WM will be dead in TvT too, the nerf is a bad idea, protoss try to open without obs, i dont know why terran should be nerf.
When we talk about storm they say "ghost", well so, wm -> obs.
TvZ is hard nowadays but with this underpowered WM it will be even harder.
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okay, if they wanna make oracle with normal damage - make it also benefit from air upgrades at least
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Mules will no longer be able to mine gas from refineries, but their mineral return rate will change back to 25 from 20. Terran players haven’t benefitted much from this change and the mineral return rate reduction change was seen as a nerf for bio players. We are putting this idea on the shelf for now, but we can bring it back for future testing if we see an opportunity for this type of change.
Um, i thought thats EXACTLY what this was. Come on, lets be real here... bio scales too well compared to all of the other compositions in the game
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On September 22 2017 08:01 Vutalisk wrote:
All changes look good to me.
The amount of whining against Z is ridiculous. A minor change in speed of overlords which allows the overlords to arrive at the opponent's base a bit faster. It is harmless in general and people whine excessively about it. But then when Blizzard decided to buff the Thor extra +1 armor for no reason, Terran downplayed it as nothing. You guys are the simply the "best".
Ikr, the "swarm" already lost it's economic advantage and the 4 larva inject. Now people don't want the reactive race to be able to scout and react.
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On September 22 2017 08:33 DieuCure wrote:
WM will be dead in TvT too, the nerf is a bad idea, protoss try to open without obs, i dont know why terran should be nerf.
When we talk about storm they say "ghost", well so, wm -> obs.
TvZ is hard nowadays but with this underpowered WM it will be even harder.
Widow mines wont be dead, stop being over dramatic. The thing is that this cheap af unit (75/25) is almost always worth its cost with the first shot only.
Now making it visible after firing doesnt prevent that 1st shot to do massive damage like we can see today.
Lets take an example we've seen happen a countless amount of time where a Protoss gets dropped early with widow mines and is nowhere near having detection. Its game over because you lose probes and mining time for too long, all that due to 2 units that together costs 150-50.
You'll tell me : "Thats what happens to us Terrans with DT's". Except going DT is always a risk because it's a massive investment. Doing a 2-4 widow mines drop isnt a risk, because even if it does no damage (which never happens because you always sack one probe or drone per mine to tank the shot) it is so cheap that you just wont be far behind.
And don't talk about the oracle, today you cant even punish an empty mineral line with the 150/150 unit just out of fear that this sneaky 75/25 widow mine might be hiding somewhere in there even when it's not.
The idea here is to, while allowing the mine to have massive damage if not spotted (its original purpose), prevent its ridiculous propensity to have game ending damage given its cost.
It's either that or increase its cost big time.
p.s : your argument that a Protoss should open with robo-> obs is ridiculous. Protoss have different tech paths, which involve getting some buildings late. unlike terran who will always get the factory and starport rather quickly anyway.
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On September 22 2017 08:10 youngjiddle wrote:Classic introduces mass oracle and PvZ winrates normalize to 50%, better nerf it so we go back to 43% again
Yeah dude, just because oracles prevent lings from denying the protoss third, deny any nydus counter attack as they also kill buildings and queens fast, obliterate any transfering drones or queens outside spore cover, can harass your drones the whole game with stasis, can just jump on zerg bases once they're about 10 as they kill everything before your units can get there, force infestors as even hydras die to mass oracle, can give infinite vision of zerg's army, can place infinite defensive stasis wards on key locations, are faster than mutas and way faster than corruptors, doesn't mean they're bad game design.
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On September 22 2017 08:49 Dav1oN wrote:
okay, if they wanna make oracle with normal damage - make it also benefit from air upgrades at least
curious about this one. Seems to be an inconsistency since spell damage was always spell damage until now. If I understand correctly, it is still an ability though?
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Some interesting suggestions , I do like the changes to the oracle and overlord.
Glad the old mule is back aswell. The new one seemed like to much of a gimmick.
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On September 22 2017 09:32 xTJx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 08:10 youngjiddle wrote:Classic introduces mass oracle and PvZ winrates normalize to 50%, better nerf it so we go back to 43% again Yeah dude, just because oracles prevent lings from denying the protoss third, deny any nydus counter attack as they also kill buildings and queens fast, obliterate any transfering drones or queens outside spore cover, can harass your drones the whole game with stasis, can just jump on zerg bases once they're about 10 as they kill everything before your units can get there, force infestors as even hydras die to mass oracle, can give infinite vision of zerg's army, can place infinite defensive stasis wards on key locations, are faster than mutas and way faster than corruptors, doesn't mean they're bad game design.
And yet he's right. Mass oracles in PvZ hasnt had a 100% winrate since it started, quite far from that.
And even if Oracles needed to be changed, the PvZ has been zerg favored for months now. With the removal of the mothership core and nothing to balance its disparition, I can already see the Protoss winrates in PvZ go below 40% for the 1st time. (We werent that far a few weeks/months ago)
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On September 22 2017 09:55 Snarosc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 09:32 xTJx wrote:On September 22 2017 08:10 youngjiddle wrote:Classic introduces mass oracle and PvZ winrates normalize to 50%, better nerf it so we go back to 43% again Yeah dude, just because oracles prevent lings from denying the protoss third, deny any nydus counter attack as they also kill buildings and queens fast, obliterate any transfering drones or queens outside spore cover, can harass your drones the whole game with stasis, can just jump on zerg bases once they're about 10 as they kill everything before your units can get there, force infestors as even hydras die to mass oracle, can give infinite vision of zerg's army, can place infinite defensive stasis wards on key locations, are faster than mutas and way faster than corruptors, doesn't mean they're bad game design. And yet he's right. Mass oracles in PvZ hasnt had a 100% winrate since it started, quite far from that. And even if Oracles needed to be changed, the PvZ has been zerg favored for months now. With the removal of the mothership core and nothing to balance its disparition, I can already see the Protoss winrates in PvZ go below 40% for the 1st time. (We werent that far a few weeks/months ago)
3rax reaper in TvZ didn't have a 100% winrate since it started, quite far from that.
3rax reaper was actually quite balanced according to the winrates. It was also incredibly toxic, terrible to watch and play against, and widely hated by everyone who wasn't actually abusing it. After being exploited and becoming semi-standard in the meta, it was promptly nerfed by Blizzard (several times).
Now replace "3rax reaper" with "3-stargate Oracle," in the above paragraph.
That being said, I do recognize that 3-stargate Oracle is a direct result of Hydra/Ling/Bane's strength in ZvP. Hell, LBH is standard in ZvT as well, and a single style dominating both matchups sets off a couple red flags for me. Personally, I'd like to see the Hydra +10 hp buff reverted.
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On September 22 2017 10:02 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 09:55 Snarosc wrote:On September 22 2017 09:32 xTJx wrote:On September 22 2017 08:10 youngjiddle wrote:Classic introduces mass oracle and PvZ winrates normalize to 50%, better nerf it so we go back to 43% again Yeah dude, just because oracles prevent lings from denying the protoss third, deny any nydus counter attack as they also kill buildings and queens fast, obliterate any transfering drones or queens outside spore cover, can harass your drones the whole game with stasis, can just jump on zerg bases once they're about 10 as they kill everything before your units can get there, force infestors as even hydras die to mass oracle, can give infinite vision of zerg's army, can place infinite defensive stasis wards on key locations, are faster than mutas and way faster than corruptors, doesn't mean they're bad game design. And yet he's right. Mass oracles in PvZ hasnt had a 100% winrate since it started, quite far from that. And even if Oracles needed to be changed, the PvZ has been zerg favored for months now. With the removal of the mothership core and nothing to balance its disparition, I can already see the Protoss winrates in PvZ go below 40% for the 1st time. (We werent that far a few weeks/months ago) 3rax reaper in TvZ didn't have a 100% winrate since it started, quite far from that. 3rax reaper was actually quite balanced according to the winrates. It was also incredibly toxic, terrible to watch and play against, and widely hated by everyone who wasn't actually abusing it. After being exploited and becoming semi-standard in the meta, it was promptly nerfed by Blizzard (several times). Now replace "3rax reaper" with "3-stargate Oracle."
Yes, that's the point the community doesn't see. The game is suposed to be good first, then balanced second. Bad game design will make players frustated and viewers bored, leading them away.
Also, players are not robots and the meta changes from time to time. You can't just expect 50% winrates at all times, and even with your statistics saying protoss is losing, sOs and Stats eliminated Solar and Rogue in the last GSL quarterfinals.
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On September 22 2017 09:32 xTJx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 08:10 youngjiddle wrote:Classic introduces mass oracle and PvZ winrates normalize to 50%, better nerf it so we go back to 43% again Yeah dude, just because oracles prevent lings from denying the protoss third, deny any nydus counter attack as they also kill buildings and queens fast, obliterate any transfering drones or queens outside spore cover, can harass your drones the whole game with stasis, can just jump on zerg bases once they're about 10 as they kill everything before your units can get there, force infestors as even hydras die to mass oracle, can give infinite vision of zerg's army, can place infinite defensive stasis wards on key locations, are faster than mutas and way faster than corruptors, doesn't mean they're bad game design.
Have you considered the possibility that you are bad and haven't used the correct counter play yet.
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On September 22 2017 07:01 highsis wrote:
I hate oracle changes. It's been only like weeks since Classic first showed mass oracle strategy, which had never even been dominant, and it's already getting nerfed? It was an interesting strategy to watch.
Flat out completely wrong. Maybe you think a spellcaster air unit being able to defeat ground to air armies is "interesting" but literally no-one else does. The proposed changes I think are great, no number tweaks, just cooldowns and damage type adjustments. Keep in mind when an oracle is bum rushing your mineral line in the early game noones going to have Armor upgrades so the point is kind of moot. The timer on Stasis Ward is going to increase the skill ceiling of the ability, making it so Oracle players can differentiate themselves between the "good" and the "great". Overall excellent changes, the new balance team has been impressive so far imo.
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On September 22 2017 11:07 youngjiddle wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 09:32 xTJx wrote:On September 22 2017 08:10 youngjiddle wrote:Classic introduces mass oracle and PvZ winrates normalize to 50%, better nerf it so we go back to 43% again Yeah dude, just because oracles prevent lings from denying the protoss third, deny any nydus counter attack as they also kill buildings and queens fast, obliterate any transfering drones or queens outside spore cover, can harass your drones the whole game with stasis, can just jump on zerg bases once they're about 10 as they kill everything before your units can get there, force infestors as even hydras die to mass oracle, can give infinite vision of zerg's army, can place infinite defensive stasis wards on key locations, are faster than mutas and way faster than corruptors, doesn't mean they're bad game design. Have you considered the possibility that you are bad and haven't used the correct counter play yet.
Funny because Scarlett made all these same points on reddit the other day, i guess shes bad and doesnt have the counter play yet either? Neither does Rogue, or SoO too amirite?
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On September 22 2017 06:44 DieuCure wrote:Show nested quote + To try and provide zerg with more scouting opportunities, the Overlord’s base movement speed will be increased from 0.82 to 0.902 and the Evolved Pneumatized Carapace upgrade will still increase the Overlord’s movement speed to the same value of 2.63. Is it really necessary ?
It might seem minor to people that don't play Zerg, but in the ZvZ match up these buffs to Overlords will make the match up far less coin flippy and chaotic on ladder.
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On September 22 2017 11:25 Finch518 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 11:07 youngjiddle wrote:On September 22 2017 09:32 xTJx wrote:On September 22 2017 08:10 youngjiddle wrote:Classic introduces mass oracle and PvZ winrates normalize to 50%, better nerf it so we go back to 43% again Yeah dude, just because oracles prevent lings from denying the protoss third, deny any nydus counter attack as they also kill buildings and queens fast, obliterate any transfering drones or queens outside spore cover, can harass your drones the whole game with stasis, can just jump on zerg bases once they're about 10 as they kill everything before your units can get there, force infestors as even hydras die to mass oracle, can give infinite vision of zerg's army, can place infinite defensive stasis wards on key locations, are faster than mutas and way faster than corruptors, doesn't mean they're bad game design. Have you considered the possibility that you are bad and haven't used the correct counter play yet. Funny because Scarlett made all these same points on reddit the other day, i guess shes bad and doesnt have the counter play yet either? Neither does Rogue, or SoO too amirite?
Ah yes Scarlett the zerg who is queen of balance whining about protoss and SoO the zerg who wants the hydra range buff, I don't take any pro players opinions very strongly.
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On September 22 2017 05:04 FarmI3oy wrote:
Protoss, I weep for you.
Those best be tears of joy.
Removing the MSC and Photon Overcharge are the best things Blizzard has ever done. I remember I felt they were terrible decisions when introduced, but I never thought they'd admit it. I haven't been so excited as Protoss players since... ever.
All of this moves the game in the right direction.
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On September 22 2017 13:39 BronzeKnee wrote:Those best be tears of joy. Removing the MSC and Photon Overcharge are the best things Blizzard has ever done. I remember I felt they were terrible decisions when introduced, but I never thought they'd admit it. I haven't been so excited as Protoss players since... ever. All of this moves the game in the right direction.
While I certainly share the sentiment, I am worried that protoss as it is on the test map wont be strong enough without it.
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On September 22 2017 13:39 BronzeKnee wrote:Those best be tears of joy. Removing the MSC and Photon Overcharge are the best things Blizzard has ever done. I remember I felt they were terrible decisions when introduced, but I never thought they'd admit it. I haven't been so excited as Protoss players since... ever. All of this moves the game in the right direction.
I liked the Mothership Core's ORIGINAL implementation that had it as a unit that was attached to a Nexus and could warp from nexus to nexus wherever it was needed.
It was unique, it was strictly for base defense and macro management and it was just plain more interesting. Then using the dumbest logic I've ever heard (it didnt feel like a unit) they let it fly freely and almost immediately people started complaining about it.
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I don't understand those changes in Zerg department. Nerfing Vipers again, when Zerg is struggling vs Air Compositions...It's just dumb.
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I just wished they removed the "free unit spawn" from the game, Swarm hosts and broodlords have been toxic to the game since day one - never finding a good balance.
I dont see the problem with swarmhosts beeing able to spawn units - at a small cost - similar to carriers - they could even be stronger than they currently are.
I think that would definitely be healthy for zergs endgame.
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As a protoss player, I don't like those intended changes at all. The statement that with the MSC removal protoss scouting ability is reduced a bit makes no sense to me. Where in 2017 you saw any pro protoss scouting with MSC? Even if you move it away from your nexus in your main to scout the perimeter, there are very good chances that adepts will shade in and decimate your mineral line, so this premise can be made by someone who doesn't really play the game. Adepts were pain in the ass for so many races soon after LOTV was released so they got nerfed properly, but it looks like we are getting back to something that we were already through. Returning energy to nexi is also stupid as fuck as it makes toss macro even harder as, in addition to firewarping your units, you need to be constantly looking at the minimap if (mine)(doom) drops are coming, and on top of that, you also need to cast retarded chronoboosts that is a mundane task and was removed with the HOTS proper demise. Nerfing blink was another reason to make the game more attractive as expanding in PvP became significantly easier, but now it will be impossible with buffed stalkers so we are getting back to 2013-15 with 1 base PvP play that is terrible. Do you really want to watch some PvP finals with blink wars again? The memory of me leaving the IEM Katowice 2015 venue so that I didn't have to watch Zest punishing some protoss who wanted to expand with his blink play is still fresh...
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"I think that would definitely be healthy for zergs endgame."
No it wouldn't.
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Balance whining is more effective than a good strategy. A good strategy may win you a single match but a good balance whine will win you the game.
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Protoss players will have to learn multitask without the easy defense behind
I can't wait to see them panic
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So it's just a shield. Not a battery.
Edit: To be more constructive - they should set the energy max to 150 at least, maybe make it larger.
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Russian Federation54 Posts
On September 22 2017 16:06 DieuCure wrote:Protoss players will have to learn multitask without the easy defense behind I can't wait to see them panic
terrans and zerg will have to remember how to counter random timing warp-in pushes with 100% boosted gateways. GL
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On September 22 2017 07:01 highsis wrote:
I hate oracle changes. It's been only like weeks since Classic first showed mass oracle strategy, which had never even been dominant, and it's already getting nerfed? It was an interesting strategy to watch.
I mostly agree.
I am OKAY with everything except for the stasis wards duration imposition. Being able to have lots of stasis wards everywhere until they catch units or get killed was really nice. It was one of my favorite things about Protoss.
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But for real, all we are all waiting for is the tankivac return right ? 
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On September 22 2017 16:35 DieuCure wrote:But for real, all we are all waiting for is the tankivac return right ?
No, never
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On September 22 2017 16:06 DieuCure wrote:Protoss players will have to learn multitask without the easy defense behind I can't wait to see them panic
Finally us Protoss f2'ers will have our time to shine. Not losing the MsCore every 4 min will prove to be an incredible boon to our economy.
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Now they should change WP mechanic, we saw it with MajOr, it's a little bit too much in late game, why not a limit
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I have no problem about 25 mineral/25 gas mule.Tell me how the fuck could terran play turtle when ravens got redesigned ????? Hope blizz will revisit gas mule again soon.
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I have a feeling that after these changes come into effect there's gonna be another drop in the number of Protoss on ladder, since not everyone is willing to study new openings and timings from scratch.
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On September 22 2017 17:25 yht9657 wrote:
I have a feeling that after these changes come into effect there's gonna be another drop in the number of Protoss on ladder, since not everyone is willing to study new openings and timings from scratch.
Exactly that.
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On September 22 2017 17:25 yht9657 wrote:
I have a feeling that after these changes come into effect there's gonna be another drop in the number of Protoss on ladder, since not everyone is willing to study new openings and timings from scratch.
In hots most of the protoss was protoss because of overpowered allins, so when lotv came out and the allins got weaker, they switched to a funnier race for them.
But since most of the protoss are protoss because they find it funny, I don't know why they would switch.
Nobody stopped terran after tankivac change for example, and it was a bigger deal than msc ( you don't have that much to learn from msc, but tankivac micro position timings etc , yes ).
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On September 22 2017 18:26 DieuCure wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 17:25 yht9657 wrote:
I have a feeling that after these changes come into effect there's gonna be another drop in the number of Protoss on ladder, since not everyone is willing to study new openings and timings from scratch. In hots most of the protoss was protoss because of overpowered allins, so when lotv came out and the allins got weaker, they switched to a funnier race for them.
are there data on this, or is it your speculation?
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All these changes seem sensible to me, though I'm not sure if leaving Hydra-Ling-Bane untouched is gonna work out well.
If the Hydra needs a nerf however, I think they shouldn't revert the HP buff and instead lower their DPS, since they never really worked as hyper glass cannon unit.
Also maybe Banes and Immortals could use some looking into aswell?
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It's an extrapolation, dont take it too literally. Just like when you told that
there's gonna be another drop in the number of Protoss
Just look at graphs :
http://www.rankedftw.com/stats/races/1v1/#v=2&r=-2&l=-2
Terran was the most played race from 04/2014 to LoTV release
Protoss and Zerg number was pretty close right before LoTV release, 29 % each of the playerbase.
Then sharp rise for zerg population when LoTV came out then a normalization, Protoss lost 2% players if you compare with others race, and terran has won 2% before the ladder revamp.
Wow what a slump, 2% in comparison. Big Drop.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 22 2017 19:00 DieuCure wrote:It's an extrapolation, dont take it too literally. Just like when you told that Just look at graphs : http://www.rankedftw.com/stats/races/1v1/#v=2&r=-2&l=-2Terran was the most played race from 04/2014 to LoTV release Protoss and Zerg number was pretty close right before LoTV release, 29 % each of the playerbase. Then sharp rise for zerg population when LoTV came out then a normalization, Protoss lost 2% players if you compare with others race, and terran has won 2% before the ladder revamp. Wow what a slump, 2% in comparison. Big Drop.
So, first things first
6k - MARU IS DA BEST. $O$ IS DA BEST!!!! Long live the Marine Prince and the Lord of Chaos.
Now to the nice and pretty page you presented. Have you looked a little deeper?
Protoss representation in leagues(I will ignore GM and since I'm at work I cannot merge it with masters, that's because of the club that GM is and the low player numbers in there(600)).
Master - 35 - 25 -35 - 5 (Z-P-T-R)
Diamond - 35 - 21(!!) - 31 - 9
Platinum - 33 - 25 - 30 - 10
Gold - 27 - 30 - 33
Every league from Platinum up has severely underrepresented Protoss. So, if you play 1 000 games you get 380:280:330 +- based on randoms(100 random games equally split). That's actually noticeable difference, but it feels OKish.
Now the fun part, diamond. 380-240-350. That is a HUGE difference. Back in HotS i had this ration(similar) when I was playing but with the least amount being Terrans. It felt horrible, it felt like no one on the ladder is Terran. Everyone and their mother was Protoss or Zerg. Terrans were nonexistant. This has an impact on the ladder, it makes it less entertaining. That's why I started playing unranked - so I can leave PvP or PvZ if I was full of it. Once I left 15 matches(!!!!!!!) to play against Terran. That poor guy never see it coming(Dia vs Gold).
Master is similar - 370 - 270 - 370.
If all these leagues will see a dive in Protoss numbers(and they will see the dive - even if the only reason is the temporary Protoss MMR dump because of the big changes) the ladder will be dominated by Terrans and Zergs. And how long will you like playing only TvT and TvZ? ;-)
Have I been at home I would have merged GM with master which would make it a little bit more stable as there's a big number of P players in GM. But Diamond and Platinum will feel very deserted. That's not a healthy state of ladder. I had it in HotS and it was a horrible state and I believe I wasn't the only one.
Now - all the Protoss players stopped playing Protoss cheese and moved to Zerg cheese as it's more tasty. Nonsense, e.g. I moved from Protoss to a different game, because LotV changes were/are retarded for me and Protoss didn't feel Protossy enough. Mind you that the last time I cheesed someone was back in WoL beta. I am a "spoon Protoss" player.
BTW -
On September 22 2017 16:06 DieuCure wrote:Protoss players will have to learn multitask without the easy defense behind I can't wait to see them panic
I didn't notice feedback being nerfed
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On September 22 2017 05:29 JWD[9] wrote:
Wow, I like the ideas presented!
I can't however really warm up for the shield battery as a defensive tool (it is fun for some rushes though xD).
Like, Photon overcharge, and even Nexus shield regen were given for free(or a one time investment) and were stronger.
However, we do have free Recall now if we get caught out of position, so shield battery is probably meant for holding some very specific early timings. I am not to much in the loop.
What do other Protosses think of the shield battery in Sc2?
I think its more useful now than it was before (6 range and 100 energy upon spawning). So basically u get 300 shields for 75 minerals, or a 400 total hp target if your opponent wants to snipe it.
I usually use them offensivly, rushing them against opponent bases if they expand too greedily in early game, (i.e. if a protoss oponent goes nexus first , or if a zerg player takes a really fast third hatchery)
If theshield battery gets up, its really easy to deny the base. I have not really used them defensivly, as I tend to make photon cannons for that purpose.
However, I think they may end up being too strong for containment strategies
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And if you click even deeper
Just before LoTV release :
Master 35 - 28 (+3) - 32 (-3)
Diamond 35 - 25 (+3 it's 22% diamond nowadays) - 32 (-1)
Platnium 35 (-2) - 25 - 29 (+1)
Gold 32 (+5) - 27 (+2) - 29 (-1)
So +-3%, it's not the fall you're trying to sell us. Considering it is very unstable. The ratio remains fairly similar and consistent with HoTS.
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On September 22 2017 19:00 DieuCure wrote:It's an extrapolation, dont take it too literally. Just like when you told that Just look at graphs : http://www.rankedftw.com/stats/races/1v1/#v=2&r=-2&l=-2Terran was the most played race from 04/2014 to LoTV release Protoss and Zerg number was pretty close right before LoTV release, 29 % each of the playerbase. Then sharp rise for zerg population when LoTV came out then a normalization, Protoss lost 2% players if you compare with others race, and terran has won 2% before the ladder revamp. Wow what a slump, 2% in comparison. Big Drop.
I don't know whom you are quoting, but that's not me not sure how to answer...
Anyway, yes - maybe there was a drop in # protoss player, but how do you know they were all players that played P for the allins? that's the question I asked you
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 22 2017 19:37 DieuCure wrote:And if you click even deeper Just before LoTV release : Master 35 - 28 (+3) - 32 (-3) Diamond 35 - 25 (+3 it's 22% diamond nowadays) - 32 (-1) Platnium 35 (-2) - 25 - 29 (+1) Gold 32 (+5) - 27 (+2) - 29 (-1) So +-3%, it's not the fall you're trying to sell us. Considering it is very unstable. The ratio remains fairly similar and consistent with HoTS.
I'm not saying it's the end of the world but how it felt to me(and some others) and how it may feel. I play unranked, I leave the games I don't like. I don't care about it. If I feel my MMR is too high I leave 20 games in a row - or just turn off the sound, click play and watch a movie while waiting for the loss.
This won't ever affect me unless they rework how MMR works for short games.
And yes, before LotV release it was pain in the ... neck.
Under-representation of any race in the league is pain if you care about your rank and your play. Mostly because - and that's the fun - they got the practice while you don't.
And the worse - unhappy players tend to leave the game
(btw don't forget that part of the dump was because there was - more or less - open LotV beta at that time)
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On September 22 2017 19:48 VHbb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 19:00 DieuCure wrote:It's an extrapolation, dont take it too literally. Just like when you told that there's gonna be another drop in the number of Protoss
Just look at graphs : http://www.rankedftw.com/stats/races/1v1/#v=2&r=-2&l=-2Terran was the most played race from 04/2014 to LoTV release Protoss and Zerg number was pretty close right before LoTV release, 29 % each of the playerbase. Then sharp rise for zerg population when LoTV came out then a normalization, Protoss lost 2% players if you compare with others race, and terran has won 2% before the ladder revamp. Wow what a slump, 2% in comparison. Big Drop. I don't know whom you are quoting, but that's not me not sure how to answer... Anyway, yes - maybe there was a drop in # protoss player, but how do you know they were all players that played P for the allins? that's the question I asked you
And I told you not to take it literally, I made a supposition as ridiculous as that which says " there's gonna be another drop in the number of Protoss on ladder", the one to which I originally replied.
With a bit of truth if you scratch. If you leave protoss for such a little change you arent really in love with this race.
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yeah, it's hard to read into what you mean, since you quoted someone who was not me, saying that "just like when you said" ..
anyhow, bottom line, it was basically meaningless - you can get whatever you want from numbers if you stretch them by "not taking things literally", so I don't see the point in arguing,.
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God people fucking whine too much'
changes look alright to me although im not sure how we're gonna deal w mass muta as zerg after the parasitic bomb change.. are infested terran really that good?
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Uh ?
I told you to not take it ->"In hots most of the protoss was protoss because of overpowered allins, so when lotv came out and the allins got weaker, they switched to a funnier race for them." litteraly, not the number.
And i thought you was prabuty or yht9657, i havent really read your username until the page 5, i was on mobile ( bad justification kek ).
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On September 22 2017 11:07 youngjiddle wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 09:32 xTJx wrote:On September 22 2017 08:10 youngjiddle wrote:Classic introduces mass oracle and PvZ winrates normalize to 50%, better nerf it so we go back to 43% again Yeah dude, just because oracles prevent lings from denying the protoss third, deny any nydus counter attack as they also kill buildings and queens fast, obliterate any transfering drones or queens outside spore cover, can harass your drones the whole game with stasis, can just jump on zerg bases once they're about 10 as they kill everything before your units can get there, force infestors as even hydras die to mass oracle, can give infinite vision of zerg's army, can place infinite defensive stasis wards on key locations, are faster than mutas and way faster than corruptors, doesn't mean they're bad game design. Have you considered the possibility that you are bad and haven't used the correct counter play yet.
Have you considered that criticizing an aspect of the game has nothing to do with me losing or winning? Fortunely not all the community are like you, so sometimes i can find intellingent life in this threads to discuss the state of the game.
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On September 22 2017 12:18 youngjiddle wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 11:25 Finch518 wrote:On September 22 2017 11:07 youngjiddle wrote:On September 22 2017 09:32 xTJx wrote:On September 22 2017 08:10 youngjiddle wrote:Classic introduces mass oracle and PvZ winrates normalize to 50%, better nerf it so we go back to 43% again Yeah dude, just because oracles prevent lings from denying the protoss third, deny any nydus counter attack as they also kill buildings and queens fast, obliterate any transfering drones or queens outside spore cover, can harass your drones the whole game with stasis, can just jump on zerg bases once they're about 10 as they kill everything before your units can get there, force infestors as even hydras die to mass oracle, can give infinite vision of zerg's army, can place infinite defensive stasis wards on key locations, are faster than mutas and way faster than corruptors, doesn't mean they're bad game design. Have you considered the possibility that you are bad and haven't used the correct counter play yet. Funny because Scarlett made all these same points on reddit the other day, i guess shes bad and doesnt have the counter play yet either? Neither does Rogue, or SoO too amirite? Ah yes Scarlett the zerg who is queen of balance whining about protoss and SoO the zerg who wants the hydra range buff, I don't take any pro players opinions very strongly.
If protoss was really that strong Scarlett would be able to play it at a high level too right? Oh wait, she does exactly that, even entering tournaments as protoss and defeating other progamers.
I bet you take Avilo's opinions strongly tho, you look the type.
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Queens have separated attacks for ground and air, something similar could be used on hydralisks, making them a strong anti-air unit while nerfing them vs ground.
Ravagers can replace them in ZvP now that the disruptor will be nerfed, but there's still the thor AA problem in ZvT that make mutalisks useless in direct combat, the reason why most zergs don't feel like building mutas anymore.
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On September 22 2017 20:50 xTJx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 12:18 youngjiddle wrote:On September 22 2017 11:25 Finch518 wrote:On September 22 2017 11:07 youngjiddle wrote:On September 22 2017 09:32 xTJx wrote:On September 22 2017 08:10 youngjiddle wrote:Classic introduces mass oracle and PvZ winrates normalize to 50%, better nerf it so we go back to 43% again Yeah dude, just because oracles prevent lings from denying the protoss third, deny any nydus counter attack as they also kill buildings and queens fast, obliterate any transfering drones or queens outside spore cover, can harass your drones the whole game with stasis, can just jump on zerg bases once they're about 10 as they kill everything before your units can get there, force infestors as even hydras die to mass oracle, can give infinite vision of zerg's army, can place infinite defensive stasis wards on key locations, are faster than mutas and way faster than corruptors, doesn't mean they're bad game design. Have you considered the possibility that you are bad and haven't used the correct counter play yet. Funny because Scarlett made all these same points on reddit the other day, i guess shes bad and doesnt have the counter play yet either? Neither does Rogue, or SoO too amirite? Ah yes Scarlett the zerg who is queen of balance whining about protoss and SoO the zerg who wants the hydra range buff, I don't take any pro players opinions very strongly. If protoss was really that strong Scarlett would be able to play it at a high level too right? Oh wait, she does exactly that, even entering tournaments as protoss and defeating other progamers. I bet you take Avilo's opinions strongly tho, you look the type.
Maybe her playing decently with Protoss is because she trains Protoss ? Because her zerg games have been very very disappointing lately.
How can we even say Protoss is strong anyway when Neeb is literally the only Protoss in every WCS this year to go further than Ro8 .. When the 7 other players are always 6 zergs and 1 terran with Kelazhur or Major.
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Those changes are amazing.
I wish you would take a look on Tier 1 overlord drops or invincible nydus.
SC2 needs more strategic diversity and gimmicky things like an invincible nydus or tier 1 ravagers force terran to play standard every game.
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On September 22 2017 21:27 Snarosc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 20:50 xTJx wrote:On September 22 2017 12:18 youngjiddle wrote:On September 22 2017 11:25 Finch518 wrote:On September 22 2017 11:07 youngjiddle wrote:On September 22 2017 09:32 xTJx wrote:On September 22 2017 08:10 youngjiddle wrote:Classic introduces mass oracle and PvZ winrates normalize to 50%, better nerf it so we go back to 43% again Yeah dude, just because oracles prevent lings from denying the protoss third, deny any nydus counter attack as they also kill buildings and queens fast, obliterate any transfering drones or queens outside spore cover, can harass your drones the whole game with stasis, can just jump on zerg bases once they're about 10 as they kill everything before your units can get there, force infestors as even hydras die to mass oracle, can give infinite vision of zerg's army, can place infinite defensive stasis wards on key locations, are faster than mutas and way faster than corruptors, doesn't mean they're bad game design. Have you considered the possibility that you are bad and haven't used the correct counter play yet. Funny because Scarlett made all these same points on reddit the other day, i guess shes bad and doesnt have the counter play yet either? Neither does Rogue, or SoO too amirite? Ah yes Scarlett the zerg who is queen of balance whining about protoss and SoO the zerg who wants the hydra range buff, I don't take any pro players opinions very strongly. If protoss was really that strong Scarlett would be able to play it at a high level too right? Oh wait, she does exactly that, even entering tournaments as protoss and defeating other progamers. I bet you take Avilo's opinions strongly tho, you look the type. Maybe her playing decently with Protoss is because she trains Protoss ? Because her zerg games have been very very disappointing lately. How can we even say Protoss is strong anyway when Neeb is literally the only Protoss in every WCS this year to go further than Ro8 .. When the 7 other players are always 6 zergs and 1 terran with Kelazhur or Major.
I think the games he's referring to is where she won by massing oracles, then A-moving them, laughing at how ridiculous it is/making fun of it.
You hardly need to "train" a race to be able to do that.
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On September 22 2017 15:31 prabuty wrote:
Nerfing blink was another reason to make the game more attractive as expanding in PvP became significantly easier, but now it will be impossible with buffed stalkers
How are stalkers buffed? they have the same DPS and you have shield battery, blink stalkers will never be the thing that punish expansions, oracles are.
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On September 22 2017 21:27 Snarosc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 20:50 xTJx wrote:On September 22 2017 12:18 youngjiddle wrote:On September 22 2017 11:25 Finch518 wrote:On September 22 2017 11:07 youngjiddle wrote:On September 22 2017 09:32 xTJx wrote:On September 22 2017 08:10 youngjiddle wrote:Classic introduces mass oracle and PvZ winrates normalize to 50%, better nerf it so we go back to 43% again Yeah dude, just because oracles prevent lings from denying the protoss third, deny any nydus counter attack as they also kill buildings and queens fast, obliterate any transfering drones or queens outside spore cover, can harass your drones the whole game with stasis, can just jump on zerg bases once they're about 10 as they kill everything before your units can get there, force infestors as even hydras die to mass oracle, can give infinite vision of zerg's army, can place infinite defensive stasis wards on key locations, are faster than mutas and way faster than corruptors, doesn't mean they're bad game design. Have you considered the possibility that you are bad and haven't used the correct counter play yet. Funny because Scarlett made all these same points on reddit the other day, i guess shes bad and doesnt have the counter play yet either? Neither does Rogue, or SoO too amirite? Ah yes Scarlett the zerg who is queen of balance whining about protoss and SoO the zerg who wants the hydra range buff, I don't take any pro players opinions very strongly. If protoss was really that strong Scarlett would be able to play it at a high level too right? Oh wait, she does exactly that, even entering tournaments as protoss and defeating other progamers. I bet you take Avilo's opinions strongly tho, you look the type. Maybe her playing decently with Protoss is because she trains Protoss ? Because her zerg games have been very very disappointing lately. How can we even say Protoss is strong anyway when Neeb is literally the only Protoss in every WCS this year to go further than Ro8 .. When the 7 other players are always 6 zergs and 1 terran with Kelazhur or Major.
Yeah that's another thing with this community, if ladder and tournaments don't have 33% of each race representation with 50% winrates at all times, the game is imbalanced, because players are robots. And the fact that Neeb only lost 2 games in that tournament doesn't matter.
By your own logic, Zerg is underpowered right now, because in GSL Super Tournament we have 5 protoss, 6 terrans and only 3 zergs.
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On September 22 2017 21:41 Saggymidgetbooty6969 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 15:31 prabuty wrote:
Nerfing blink was another reason to make the game more attractive as expanding in PvP became significantly easier, but now it will be impossible with buffed stalkers How are stalkers buffed? they have the same DPS and you have shield battery, blink stalkers will never be the thing that punish expansions, oracles are.
They do more of there damage at a slower rate but its the same dps and they benefit from attack upgrades more. So basically any situation where an individual stalker would die only able to shoot once before death then they are better than they were before. I don't think that will affect PvP much probably PvT the most because bio kills quickly and kiting comes into play more with stalkers.
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On September 22 2017 21:41 Saggymidgetbooty6969 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 15:31 prabuty wrote:
Nerfing blink was another reason to make the game more attractive as expanding in PvP became significantly easier, but now it will be impossible with buffed stalkers How are stalkers buffed? they have the same DPS and you have shield battery, blink stalkers will never be the thing that punish expansions, oracles are.
Stalkers have improved damage right now so all kinds of 3-4 gate early aggression will be very effective against someone who wants to expand and rely on immortals and pylons for defense. You simply have more better stalkers, and your opponent cannot buy enough time with overcharges anymore. Also any expanding protoss in PvP will never know what is coming exactly, be it oracle/proxy oracle, dt, 3-4 gate, proxy robo, 3 gate blink stalker off one base etc. This will translate into some very wierd expansion timings and various stupid ways to punish it that I don't really have time to study.
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On September 22 2017 20:03 joon wrote:
God people fucking whine too much'
changes look alright to me although im not sure how we're gonna deal w mass muta as zerg after the parasitic bomb change.. are infested terran really that good?
Bickering and hopelessly biased "suggestions" may always be part of balance/patch discussions in the sc2 community. You'd think they'd be past that after all these years and that the smaller but firmer community that's still around would have learned to settle their differences and instead enjoy this game together but it's still the same shit it's always been.
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On September 22 2017 22:33 WaesumNinja wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 20:03 joon wrote:
God people fucking whine too much'
changes look alright to me although im not sure how we're gonna deal w mass muta as zerg after the parasitic bomb change.. are infested terran really that good? Bickering and hopelessly biased "suggestions" may always be part of balance/patch discussions in the sc2 community. You'd think they'd be past that after all these years and that the smaller but firmer community that's still around would have learned to settle their differences and instead enjoy this game together but it's still the same shit it's always been.
With every balance patch I am astonished at how Blizzard somehow manages to nerf every race into the ground in every single matchup, simultaneously.
Or maybe the whiny idiots are just whiny idiots.
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lol that people think faster OL is random or unneeded buff. it's been needed since lotv release because 12 worker start made initial OL scout weaker. this is a return toward original function, not a straight buff
1st OL snipes by marines are dumb, frustrating and unnecessary, it teaches zerg players to not want to scout actively which is bad starcraft. faster OL also theoretically softens zvz aggression and rewards players who want to path overlords to find proxies - again, scouting should be rewarded
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When I was watching the interview with the game designer in that last tournament, I felt like their direction with everything was pretty sound. It's pretty clear that they're looking at the overall health of the game, both balance wise and the enjoyment factor of watching it.
From the viewer's perspective, it is hyper important that one single composition or strat isn't hyper dominant over the other. It makes watching the matchups stale, and limits viewership. As the above poster said, 3-rax reaper was balanced, but it wasn't fun to watch. Watching a swarm of Oracles obliterate everything at all stages of the game wasn't fun to watch either. Heck, watching Marine, Marauder, Medivic, Widowmine on every single matchup against every race gets old too.
I'm calling it though. They'll change Lurkers next
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On September 22 2017 22:05 xTJx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 21:27 Snarosc wrote:On September 22 2017 20:50 xTJx wrote:On September 22 2017 12:18 youngjiddle wrote:On September 22 2017 11:25 Finch518 wrote:On September 22 2017 11:07 youngjiddle wrote:On September 22 2017 09:32 xTJx wrote:On September 22 2017 08:10 youngjiddle wrote:Classic introduces mass oracle and PvZ winrates normalize to 50%, better nerf it so we go back to 43% again Yeah dude, just because oracles prevent lings from denying the protoss third, deny any nydus counter attack as they also kill buildings and queens fast, obliterate any transfering drones or queens outside spore cover, can harass your drones the whole game with stasis, can just jump on zerg bases once they're about 10 as they kill everything before your units can get there, force infestors as even hydras die to mass oracle, can give infinite vision of zerg's army, can place infinite defensive stasis wards on key locations, are faster than mutas and way faster than corruptors, doesn't mean they're bad game design. Have you considered the possibility that you are bad and haven't used the correct counter play yet. Funny because Scarlett made all these same points on reddit the other day, i guess shes bad and doesnt have the counter play yet either? Neither does Rogue, or SoO too amirite? Ah yes Scarlett the zerg who is queen of balance whining about protoss and SoO the zerg who wants the hydra range buff, I don't take any pro players opinions very strongly. If protoss was really that strong Scarlett would be able to play it at a high level too right? Oh wait, she does exactly that, even entering tournaments as protoss and defeating other progamers. I bet you take Avilo's opinions strongly tho, you look the type. Maybe her playing decently with Protoss is because she trains Protoss ? Because her zerg games have been very very disappointing lately. How can we even say Protoss is strong anyway when Neeb is literally the only Protoss in every WCS this year to go further than Ro8 .. When the 7 other players are always 6 zergs and 1 terran with Kelazhur or Major. Yeah that's another thing with this community, if ladder and tournaments don't have 33% of each race representation with 50% winrates at all times, the game is imbalanced, because players are robots. And the fact that Neeb only lost 2 games in that tournament doesn't matter. By your own logic, Zerg is underpowered right now, because in GSL Super Tournament we have 5 protoss, 6 terrans and only 3 zergs.
You're that biased.. wow. We're not talking about 33% for each race in Eu. i'm talking about every WCS this year being 6 zergs in the last 8. But hey I guess it's just a coincidence we've had that since Lotv is out, Top EU Protoss & Terrans just stopped playing and got bad, while zergs all got suddenly better. Must be the answer. 
Neeb losing 2 maps in the whole tournament isn't really a surprise when he just has to be good in PvZ because that's what he faces, literally only zergs the entire tournament. Don't blame Protoss just because one player does well.
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Seems good. Not sure why they removed the MULE gas mining though.
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On September 23 2017 00:29 Sapphire.lux wrote:
Seems good. Not sure why they removed the MULE gas mining though.
Because Mech is in a good spot.
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Shield battery still seems far too powerful in certain situations.
It cut down a lot on the late game power (though still a super powerful mineral dump), but this seems like an absurd buff to early game use. I'm really fearful of how this will look for proxies/contains. 2 immortals at your ramp with 5 nearby shield batteries suddenly created? Uh oh.
Also seems like a lot of on-demand defensive power because you could so easily build a bunch of these as soon as the attack is coming.
The worst part of the design is that it completely discourages preemptively making them. Why would you ever invest in a defensive shield battery if it starts at max energy and builds so fast that you can easily build them reactively? I don't like design that discourages planning and long term strategy.
Limiting its max energy is fine, but don't *start* with the max energy please.
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On September 23 2017 01:31 Autumn22 wrote:
Shield battery still seems far too powerful in certain situations.
It cut down a lot on the late game power (though still a super powerful mineral dump), but this seems like an absurd buff to early game use. I'm really fearful of how this will look for proxies/contains. 2 immortals at your ramp with 5 nearby shield batteries suddenly created? Uh oh.
Also seems like a lot of on-demand defensive power because you could so easily build a bunch of these as soon as the attack is coming.
The worst part of the design is that it completely discourages preemptively making them. Why would you ever invest in a defensive shield battery if it starts at max energy and builds so fast that you can easily build them reactively? I don't like design that discourages planning and long term strategy.
Limiting its max energy is fine, but don't *start* with the max energy please.
agree about the energy thing, but for contains, is it really any different from a bunker contain? i suppose its easier to get the batteries up as it only requires 1 probe, fucked up thing is - no pros play the test map because they dont want to invest time if they dont know if a change will be put in the game. so shield batteries for contains might be broken but we wont find out till after blizzcon lol
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On September 22 2017 16:35 DieuCure wrote:But for real, all we are all waiting for is the tankivac return right ?
please no. no more Tankivac. I really like the nice strong Terran Tank as it exists right now. If the Medivac can pick it up while sieged they'd have to weaken the Tank in some other way. Please leave the Tank and the mechanics surrounding the Tank alone.
On September 22 2017 16:55 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 16:06 DieuCure wrote:Protoss players will have to learn multitask without the easy defense behind I can't wait to see them panic Finally us Protoss f2'ers will have our time to shine. Not losing the MsCore every 4 min will prove to be an incredible boon to our economy.
i have my F2 button remapped to the CAPS LOCK key.
CapsLock , A + left-click.
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On September 22 2017 23:37 Snarosc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 22:05 xTJx wrote:On September 22 2017 21:27 Snarosc wrote:On September 22 2017 20:50 xTJx wrote:On September 22 2017 12:18 youngjiddle wrote:On September 22 2017 11:25 Finch518 wrote:On September 22 2017 11:07 youngjiddle wrote:On September 22 2017 09:32 xTJx wrote:On September 22 2017 08:10 youngjiddle wrote:Classic introduces mass oracle and PvZ winrates normalize to 50%, better nerf it so we go back to 43% again Yeah dude, just because oracles prevent lings from denying the protoss third, deny any nydus counter attack as they also kill buildings and queens fast, obliterate any transfering drones or queens outside spore cover, can harass your drones the whole game with stasis, can just jump on zerg bases once they're about 10 as they kill everything before your units can get there, force infestors as even hydras die to mass oracle, can give infinite vision of zerg's army, can place infinite defensive stasis wards on key locations, are faster than mutas and way faster than corruptors, doesn't mean they're bad game design. Have you considered the possibility that you are bad and haven't used the correct counter play yet. Funny because Scarlett made all these same points on reddit the other day, i guess shes bad and doesnt have the counter play yet either? Neither does Rogue, or SoO too amirite? Ah yes Scarlett the zerg who is queen of balance whining about protoss and SoO the zerg who wants the hydra range buff, I don't take any pro players opinions very strongly. If protoss was really that strong Scarlett would be able to play it at a high level too right? Oh wait, she does exactly that, even entering tournaments as protoss and defeating other progamers. I bet you take Avilo's opinions strongly tho, you look the type. Maybe her playing decently with Protoss is because she trains Protoss ? Because her zerg games have been very very disappointing lately. How can we even say Protoss is strong anyway when Neeb is literally the only Protoss in every WCS this year to go further than Ro8 .. When the 7 other players are always 6 zergs and 1 terran with Kelazhur or Major. Yeah that's another thing with this community, if ladder and tournaments don't have 33% of each race representation with 50% winrates at all times, the game is imbalanced, because players are robots. And the fact that Neeb only lost 2 games in that tournament doesn't matter. By your own logic, Zerg is underpowered right now, because in GSL Super Tournament we have 5 protoss, 6 terrans and only 3 zergs. You're that biased.. wow. We're not talking about 33% for each race in Eu. i'm talking about every WCS this year being 6 zergs in the last 8. But hey I guess it's just a coincidence we've had that since Lotv is out, Top EU Protoss & Terrans just stopped playing and got bad, while zergs all got suddenly better. Must be the answer. Neeb losing 2 maps in the whole tournament isn't really a surprise when he just has to be good in PvZ because that's what he faces, literally only zergs the entire tournament. Don't blame Protoss just because one player does well.
It's not a coincindence, Zergs on EU have always been really good, and now the region are locked, it's easier to reach RO16 because they don't meet a korean player that will destroy them.
If the race were strong, they would have no problem winning all the foreigner tournaments, but actually they only won 3 tournaments while Protoss foreigners won 8, and even if you don't count Neeb; Showtime, Harstem and PetitDrogo won 4 tournaments.
Terrans players may be not good on foreigners league, (uthermal has still won a tournament on LOTV, so he is not doing more poorly than Snute, Elazer or Nerchio), they are really strong in korea, big proof the race isn't weak, the problem is just who is behind the keyboard.
The only thing i see here is you don't want to accept Zerg foreigners are good.
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Btw Day[9] announcer pack :D
this is the one that I may buy! <3 Day[J]
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You wanna less zerg ?? Only one thing is better in zerg race : Its the creep.
Remove creeps visibility, and you ll have equal terrans protoss and zergs. LOL they have OL and tumors for visibility but none care.
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On September 23 2017 03:21 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 23:37 Snarosc wrote:On September 22 2017 22:05 xTJx wrote:On September 22 2017 21:27 Snarosc wrote:On September 22 2017 20:50 xTJx wrote:On September 22 2017 12:18 youngjiddle wrote:On September 22 2017 11:25 Finch518 wrote:On September 22 2017 11:07 youngjiddle wrote:On September 22 2017 09:32 xTJx wrote:On September 22 2017 08:10 youngjiddle wrote:Classic introduces mass oracle and PvZ winrates normalize to 50%, better nerf it so we go back to 43% again Yeah dude, just because oracles prevent lings from denying the protoss third, deny any nydus counter attack as they also kill buildings and queens fast, obliterate any transfering drones or queens outside spore cover, can harass your drones the whole game with stasis, can just jump on zerg bases once they're about 10 as they kill everything before your units can get there, force infestors as even hydras die to mass oracle, can give infinite vision of zerg's army, can place infinite defensive stasis wards on key locations, are faster than mutas and way faster than corruptors, doesn't mean they're bad game design. Have you considered the possibility that you are bad and haven't used the correct counter play yet. Funny because Scarlett made all these same points on reddit the other day, i guess shes bad and doesnt have the counter play yet either? Neither does Rogue, or SoO too amirite? Ah yes Scarlett the zerg who is queen of balance whining about protoss and SoO the zerg who wants the hydra range buff, I don't take any pro players opinions very strongly. If protoss was really that strong Scarlett would be able to play it at a high level too right? Oh wait, she does exactly that, even entering tournaments as protoss and defeating other progamers. I bet you take Avilo's opinions strongly tho, you look the type. Maybe her playing decently with Protoss is because she trains Protoss ? Because her zerg games have been very very disappointing lately. How can we even say Protoss is strong anyway when Neeb is literally the only Protoss in every WCS this year to go further than Ro8 .. When the 7 other players are always 6 zergs and 1 terran with Kelazhur or Major. Yeah that's another thing with this community, if ladder and tournaments don't have 33% of each race representation with 50% winrates at all times, the game is imbalanced, because players are robots. And the fact that Neeb only lost 2 games in that tournament doesn't matter. By your own logic, Zerg is underpowered right now, because in GSL Super Tournament we have 5 protoss, 6 terrans and only 3 zergs. You're that biased.. wow. We're not talking about 33% for each race in Eu. i'm talking about every WCS this year being 6 zergs in the last 8. But hey I guess it's just a coincidence we've had that since Lotv is out, Top EU Protoss & Terrans just stopped playing and got bad, while zergs all got suddenly better. Must be the answer. Neeb losing 2 maps in the whole tournament isn't really a surprise when he just has to be good in PvZ because that's what he faces, literally only zergs the entire tournament. Don't blame Protoss just because one player does well. It's not a coincindence, Zergs on EU have always been really good, and now the region are locked, it's easier to reach RO16 because they don't meet a korean player that will destroy them. If the race were strong, they would have no problem winning all the foreigner tournaments, but actually they only won 3 tournaments while Protoss foreigners won 8, and even if you don't count Neeb; Showtime, Harstem and PetitDrogo won 4 tournaments. Terrans players may be not good on foreigners league, (uthermal has still won a tournament on LOTV, so he is not doing more poorly than Snute, Elazer or Nerchio), they are really strong in korea, big proof the race isn't weak, the problem is just who is behind the keyboard. The only thing i see here is you don't want to accept Zerg foreigners are good.
Ah yes, foreign zergs are just better than foreign protosses or terrans. But if zerg players ever do poorly in Korea, it's the race, not Korean zergs being worse than their counterparts.
What a ridiculous double standard.
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If you doon t want to remove zerg mecanics, you can always increase the life tumors and remove invisibility
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On September 23 2017 03:58 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2017 03:21 Tyrhanius wrote:On September 22 2017 23:37 Snarosc wrote:On September 22 2017 22:05 xTJx wrote:On September 22 2017 21:27 Snarosc wrote:On September 22 2017 20:50 xTJx wrote:On September 22 2017 12:18 youngjiddle wrote:On September 22 2017 11:25 Finch518 wrote:On September 22 2017 11:07 youngjiddle wrote:On September 22 2017 09:32 xTJx wrote:
[quote]
Yeah dude, just because oracles prevent lings from denying the protoss third, deny any nydus counter attack as they also kill buildings and queens fast, obliterate any transfering drones or queens outside spore cover, can harass your drones the whole game with stasis, can just jump on zerg bases once they're about 10 as they kill everything before your units can get there, force infestors as even hydras die to mass oracle, can give infinite vision of zerg's army, can place infinite defensive stasis wards on key locations, are faster than mutas and way faster than corruptors, doesn't mean they're bad game design. Have you considered the possibility that you are bad and haven't used the correct counter play yet. Funny because Scarlett made all these same points on reddit the other day, i guess shes bad and doesnt have the counter play yet either? Neither does Rogue, or SoO too amirite? Ah yes Scarlett the zerg who is queen of balance whining about protoss and SoO the zerg who wants the hydra range buff, I don't take any pro players opinions very strongly. If protoss was really that strong Scarlett would be able to play it at a high level too right? Oh wait, she does exactly that, even entering tournaments as protoss and defeating other progamers. I bet you take Avilo's opinions strongly tho, you look the type. Maybe her playing decently with Protoss is because she trains Protoss ? Because her zerg games have been very very disappointing lately. How can we even say Protoss is strong anyway when Neeb is literally the only Protoss in every WCS this year to go further than Ro8 .. When the 7 other players are always 6 zergs and 1 terran with Kelazhur or Major. Yeah that's another thing with this community, if ladder and tournaments don't have 33% of each race representation with 50% winrates at all times, the game is imbalanced, because players are robots. And the fact that Neeb only lost 2 games in that tournament doesn't matter. By your own logic, Zerg is underpowered right now, because in GSL Super Tournament we have 5 protoss, 6 terrans and only 3 zergs. You're that biased.. wow. We're not talking about 33% for each race in Eu. i'm talking about every WCS this year being 6 zergs in the last 8. But hey I guess it's just a coincidence we've had that since Lotv is out, Top EU Protoss & Terrans just stopped playing and got bad, while zergs all got suddenly better. Must be the answer. Neeb losing 2 maps in the whole tournament isn't really a surprise when he just has to be good in PvZ because that's what he faces, literally only zergs the entire tournament. Don't blame Protoss just because one player does well. It's not a coincindence, Zergs on EU have always been really good, and now the region are locked, it's easier to reach RO16 because they don't meet a korean player that will destroy them. If the race were strong, they would have no problem winning all the foreigner tournaments, but actually they only won 3 tournaments while Protoss foreigners won 8, and even if you don't count Neeb; Showtime, Harstem and PetitDrogo won 4 tournaments. Terrans players may be not good on foreigners league, (uthermal has still won a tournament on LOTV, so he is not doing more poorly than Snute, Elazer or Nerchio), they are really strong in korea, big proof the race isn't weak, the problem is just who is behind the keyboard. The only thing i see here is you don't want to accept Zerg foreigners are good. Ah yes, foreign zergs are just better than foreign protosses or terrans. But if zerg players ever do poorly in Korea, it's the race, not Korean zergs being worse than their counterparts. What a ridiculous double standard.
Well the game gets balanced for the highest level of play which is in korea,so obviously it's a problem when a race is underperforming there. foreign tournaments aren't a representation of balance
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On September 23 2017 03:58 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2017 03:21 Tyrhanius wrote:On September 22 2017 23:37 Snarosc wrote:On September 22 2017 22:05 xTJx wrote:On September 22 2017 21:27 Snarosc wrote:On September 22 2017 20:50 xTJx wrote:On September 22 2017 12:18 youngjiddle wrote:On September 22 2017 11:25 Finch518 wrote:On September 22 2017 11:07 youngjiddle wrote:On September 22 2017 09:32 xTJx wrote:
[quote]
Yeah dude, just because oracles prevent lings from denying the protoss third, deny any nydus counter attack as they also kill buildings and queens fast, obliterate any transfering drones or queens outside spore cover, can harass your drones the whole game with stasis, can just jump on zerg bases once they're about 10 as they kill everything before your units can get there, force infestors as even hydras die to mass oracle, can give infinite vision of zerg's army, can place infinite defensive stasis wards on key locations, are faster than mutas and way faster than corruptors, doesn't mean they're bad game design. Have you considered the possibility that you are bad and haven't used the correct counter play yet. Funny because Scarlett made all these same points on reddit the other day, i guess shes bad and doesnt have the counter play yet either? Neither does Rogue, or SoO too amirite? Ah yes Scarlett the zerg who is queen of balance whining about protoss and SoO the zerg who wants the hydra range buff, I don't take any pro players opinions very strongly. If protoss was really that strong Scarlett would be able to play it at a high level too right? Oh wait, she does exactly that, even entering tournaments as protoss and defeating other progamers. I bet you take Avilo's opinions strongly tho, you look the type. Maybe her playing decently with Protoss is because she trains Protoss ? Because her zerg games have been very very disappointing lately. How can we even say Protoss is strong anyway when Neeb is literally the only Protoss in every WCS this year to go further than Ro8 .. When the 7 other players are always 6 zergs and 1 terran with Kelazhur or Major. Yeah that's another thing with this community, if ladder and tournaments don't have 33% of each race representation with 50% winrates at all times, the game is imbalanced, because players are robots. And the fact that Neeb only lost 2 games in that tournament doesn't matter. By your own logic, Zerg is underpowered right now, because in GSL Super Tournament we have 5 protoss, 6 terrans and only 3 zergs. You're that biased.. wow. We're not talking about 33% for each race in Eu. i'm talking about every WCS this year being 6 zergs in the last 8. But hey I guess it's just a coincidence we've had that since Lotv is out, Top EU Protoss & Terrans just stopped playing and got bad, while zergs all got suddenly better. Must be the answer. Neeb losing 2 maps in the whole tournament isn't really a surprise when he just has to be good in PvZ because that's what he faces, literally only zergs the entire tournament. Don't blame Protoss just because one player does well. It's not a coincindence, Zergs on EU have always been really good, and now the region are locked, it's easier to reach RO16 because they don't meet a korean player that will destroy them. If the race were strong, they would have no problem winning all the foreigner tournaments, but actually they only won 3 tournaments while Protoss foreigners won 8, and even if you don't count Neeb; Showtime, Harstem and PetitDrogo won 4 tournaments. Terrans players may be not good on foreigners league, (uthermal has still won a tournament on LOTV, so he is not doing more poorly than Snute, Elazer or Nerchio), they are really strong in korea, big proof the race isn't weak, the problem is just who is behind the keyboard. The only thing i see here is you don't want to accept Zerg foreigners are good. Ah yes, foreign zergs are just better than foreign protosses or terrans. But if zerg players ever do poorly in Korea, it's the race, not Korean zergs being worse than their counterparts. What a ridiculous double standard.
What is ridiculous is how someone make a point about 1 unit and people have to turn it into a balance rant.
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On September 22 2017 16:36 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 16:35 DieuCure wrote:But for real, all we are all waiting for is the tankivac return right ? No, never
honestly i miss it, I mean yeah it got rid of the gloriuse chess match that was tvt, but frankly tvt has never been as good as it was in wol because of boosted medivacs. And it was alot of fun to make deathball of tanks and drop it places to pick off big chunks of army supply.
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On September 22 2017 23:12 Ranari wrote:When I was watching the interview with the game designer in that last tournament, I felt like their direction with everything was pretty sound. It's pretty clear that they're looking at the overall health of the game, both balance wise and the enjoyment factor of watching it. From the viewer's perspective, it is hyper important that one single composition or strat isn't hyper dominant over the other. It makes watching the matchups stale, and limits viewership. As the above poster said, 3-rax reaper was balanced, but it wasn't fun to watch. Watching a swarm of Oracles obliterate everything at all stages of the game wasn't fun to watch either. Heck, watching Marine, Marauder, Medivic, Widowmine on every single matchup against every race gets old too. I'm calling it though. They'll change Lurkers next
Then im wondering why bliz does nothing about the dominance of hydra ling bane in both zvt and zvp.
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On September 23 2017 06:16 washikie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 23:12 Ranari wrote:When I was watching the interview with the game designer in that last tournament, I felt like their direction with everything was pretty sound. It's pretty clear that they're looking at the overall health of the game, both balance wise and the enjoyment factor of watching it. From the viewer's perspective, it is hyper important that one single composition or strat isn't hyper dominant over the other. It makes watching the matchups stale, and limits viewership. As the above poster said, 3-rax reaper was balanced, but it wasn't fun to watch. Watching a swarm of Oracles obliterate everything at all stages of the game wasn't fun to watch either. Heck, watching Marine, Marauder, Medivic, Widowmine on every single matchup against every race gets old too. I'm calling it though. They'll change Lurkers next Then im wondering why bliz does nothing about the dominance of hydra ling bane in both zvt and zvp.
Dominance is a strong word. I would choose the word prevalent.
But I agree hydra/ling/bane is very strong in both matchups.
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Hi GM protoss player feedback :
- happy with mothership core removal,it's archaic design and not needed anymore. more fun and less QQ = good change
- oracle change is not a big deal, a small nerf to a toxic gameplay in PvZ
- disruptor : bad design, need redesign. The nerf is too much aswell.
- colossus : seems balanced for a niche aoe unit
- observer /ht changes : QoL nothing to say about, doesn't matter.
- shield battery : extremely strong with any proxy gate unit rush or canons. it's beyond broken. it's defense utility is ok tough. Another "cool" choice badly implemented.
I think protoss don't need anything to compensate for mscCore removal and shield battery should be scrapped ( and probably will be before the end of ptr) because of those unwanted offensiv uses.
Have fun stomping z or T with few immortal stalker/zealot . There is nothing terran or zerg can do about it, it's so funny :D
- other races changes : minors changes i'm fine with them
edit : - scrambler missile might be a bit too strong
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On September 22 2017 05:26 NutriaKaiN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 05:06 bela.mervado wrote:
i like the pulsar beam idea, but it is still does 1x15 dmg (i wonder what difference this makes against 1 base armor queens),
maybe they should split it into 2x7 (just like the marauder nerf). maybe the oracle should do no damage, only the beam itself.
I was thinking make it regular damage, and split it to 15 beams doing 1 damage each for its attack.
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On September 23 2017 03:58 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2017 03:21 Tyrhanius wrote:On September 22 2017 23:37 Snarosc wrote:On September 22 2017 22:05 xTJx wrote:On September 22 2017 21:27 Snarosc wrote:On September 22 2017 20:50 xTJx wrote:On September 22 2017 12:18 youngjiddle wrote:On September 22 2017 11:25 Finch518 wrote:On September 22 2017 11:07 youngjiddle wrote:On September 22 2017 09:32 xTJx wrote:
[quote]
Yeah dude, just because oracles prevent lings from denying the protoss third, deny any nydus counter attack as they also kill buildings and queens fast, obliterate any transfering drones or queens outside spore cover, can harass your drones the whole game with stasis, can just jump on zerg bases once they're about 10 as they kill everything before your units can get there, force infestors as even hydras die to mass oracle, can give infinite vision of zerg's army, can place infinite defensive stasis wards on key locations, are faster than mutas and way faster than corruptors, doesn't mean they're bad game design. Have you considered the possibility that you are bad and haven't used the correct counter play yet. Funny because Scarlett made all these same points on reddit the other day, i guess shes bad and doesnt have the counter play yet either? Neither does Rogue, or SoO too amirite? Ah yes Scarlett the zerg who is queen of balance whining about protoss and SoO the zerg who wants the hydra range buff, I don't take any pro players opinions very strongly. If protoss was really that strong Scarlett would be able to play it at a high level too right? Oh wait, she does exactly that, even entering tournaments as protoss and defeating other progamers. I bet you take Avilo's opinions strongly tho, you look the type. Maybe her playing decently with Protoss is because she trains Protoss ? Because her zerg games have been very very disappointing lately. How can we even say Protoss is strong anyway when Neeb is literally the only Protoss in every WCS this year to go further than Ro8 .. When the 7 other players are always 6 zergs and 1 terran with Kelazhur or Major. Yeah that's another thing with this community, if ladder and tournaments don't have 33% of each race representation with 50% winrates at all times, the game is imbalanced, because players are robots. And the fact that Neeb only lost 2 games in that tournament doesn't matter. By your own logic, Zerg is underpowered right now, because in GSL Super Tournament we have 5 protoss, 6 terrans and only 3 zergs. You're that biased.. wow. We're not talking about 33% for each race in Eu. i'm talking about every WCS this year being 6 zergs in the last 8. But hey I guess it's just a coincidence we've had that since Lotv is out, Top EU Protoss & Terrans just stopped playing and got bad, while zergs all got suddenly better. Must be the answer. Neeb losing 2 maps in the whole tournament isn't really a surprise when he just has to be good in PvZ because that's what he faces, literally only zergs the entire tournament. Don't blame Protoss just because one player does well. It's not a coincindence, Zergs on EU have always been really good, and now the region are locked, it's easier to reach RO16 because they don't meet a korean player that will destroy them. If the race were strong, they would have no problem winning all the foreigner tournaments, but actually they only won 3 tournaments while Protoss foreigners won 8, and even if you don't count Neeb; Showtime, Harstem and PetitDrogo won 4 tournaments. Terrans players may be not good on foreigners league, (uthermal has still won a tournament on LOTV, so he is not doing more poorly than Snute, Elazer or Nerchio), they are really strong in korea, big proof the race isn't weak, the problem is just who is behind the keyboard. The only thing i see here is you don't want to accept Zerg foreigners are good. Ah yes, foreign zergs are just better than foreign protosses or terrans. But if zerg players ever do poorly in Korea, it's the race, not Korean zergs being worse than their counterparts. What a ridiculous double standard.
And according to you : Zerg are more numerous in foreigner leagues because they're OP, but in korea Terran are the best players...
It makes no sense that only foreigner league is affected by balance, but not korea...
It's also make no sense because the foreigners and the kor zerg players are exactly the same than on HOTS.
You act like the Snute/nerchio/Scarlett are newcomers that never used to be good, and start to perform on LOTV, like Dark/Solar/Soo/Rogue were no name on HOTS and Terran players were always better...
Who have heard about Byun before LOTV ? Who thought Gumiho can win GSL before LOTV, or TY two tournaments ?
And Protoss foreigners perform better than Zerg on LOTV but you keep saying Zerg rules foreigners tournaments...
They're a lot of zerg on foreigners tournaments because the good player from HOTS haven't stopped playing, but still despite you have 6-8 of the best Zerg on foreigners scene, protoss won most of the tournaments.
On GSL, we used to see more Z/P than T, but right now Zerg is the less represented race.
Also Zerg breaks a record this year, and had the longest period when they didn't win a tournament on the history of SC2.
All show Zerg are doing rather poorly right now compared to the past.
But as "Terran community" don't want to accept that reality they try to find everything they can.
You use distribution as an argument of casality, it's not a scientific method, it's just a way to manipulate numbers to say what you want.
Imagine something like : "There is more women than men, so it's obvious the life is harder for men than women, that's why they die earlier", and when we say : "But, actually men won more money than women, most of the rulers are men", "- Yeah it's because they're more skilled".
That's the same argumentation than : "Zerg are more in foreigner tournaments, but they win less because P/T are more skilled"
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On September 23 2017 15:20 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2017 03:58 Athenau wrote:On September 23 2017 03:21 Tyrhanius wrote:On September 22 2017 23:37 Snarosc wrote:On September 22 2017 22:05 xTJx wrote:On September 22 2017 21:27 Snarosc wrote:On September 22 2017 20:50 xTJx wrote:On September 22 2017 12:18 youngjiddle wrote:On September 22 2017 11:25 Finch518 wrote:On September 22 2017 11:07 youngjiddle wrote:
[quote]
Have you considered the possibility that you are bad and haven't used the correct counter play yet. Funny because Scarlett made all these same points on reddit the other day, i guess shes bad and doesnt have the counter play yet either? Neither does Rogue, or SoO too amirite? Ah yes Scarlett the zerg who is queen of balance whining about protoss and SoO the zerg who wants the hydra range buff, I don't take any pro players opinions very strongly. If protoss was really that strong Scarlett would be able to play it at a high level too right? Oh wait, she does exactly that, even entering tournaments as protoss and defeating other progamers. I bet you take Avilo's opinions strongly tho, you look the type. Maybe her playing decently with Protoss is because she trains Protoss ? Because her zerg games have been very very disappointing lately. How can we even say Protoss is strong anyway when Neeb is literally the only Protoss in every WCS this year to go further than Ro8 .. When the 7 other players are always 6 zergs and 1 terran with Kelazhur or Major. Yeah that's another thing with this community, if ladder and tournaments don't have 33% of each race representation with 50% winrates at all times, the game is imbalanced, because players are robots. And the fact that Neeb only lost 2 games in that tournament doesn't matter. By your own logic, Zerg is underpowered right now, because in GSL Super Tournament we have 5 protoss, 6 terrans and only 3 zergs. You're that biased.. wow. We're not talking about 33% for each race in Eu. i'm talking about every WCS this year being 6 zergs in the last 8. But hey I guess it's just a coincidence we've had that since Lotv is out, Top EU Protoss & Terrans just stopped playing and got bad, while zergs all got suddenly better. Must be the answer. Neeb losing 2 maps in the whole tournament isn't really a surprise when he just has to be good in PvZ because that's what he faces, literally only zergs the entire tournament. Don't blame Protoss just because one player does well. It's not a coincindence, Zergs on EU have always been really good, and now the region are locked, it's easier to reach RO16 because they don't meet a korean player that will destroy them. If the race were strong, they would have no problem winning all the foreigner tournaments, but actually they only won 3 tournaments while Protoss foreigners won 8, and even if you don't count Neeb; Showtime, Harstem and PetitDrogo won 4 tournaments. Terrans players may be not good on foreigners league, (uthermal has still won a tournament on LOTV, so he is not doing more poorly than Snute, Elazer or Nerchio), they are really strong in korea, big proof the race isn't weak, the problem is just who is behind the keyboard. The only thing i see here is you don't want to accept Zerg foreigners are good. Ah yes, foreign zergs are just better than foreign protosses or terrans. But if zerg players ever do poorly in Korea, it's the race, not Korean zergs being worse than their counterparts. What a ridiculous double standard. And according to you : Zerg are more numerous in foreigner leagues because they're OP, but in korea Terran are the best players... It makes no sense that only foreigner league is affected by balance, but not korea... It's also make no sense because the foreigners and the kor zerg players are exactly the same than on HOTS. You act like the Snute/nerchio/Scarlett are newcomers that never used to be good, and start to perform on LOTV, like Dark/Solar/Soo/Rogue were no name on HOTS and Terran players were always better... Who have heard about Byun before LOTV ? Who thought Gumiho can win GSL before LOTV, or TY two tournaments ? And Protoss foreigners perform better than Zerg on LOTV but you keep saying Zerg rules foreigners tournaments... They're a lot of zerg on foreigners tournaments because the good player from HOTS haven't stopped playing, but still despite you have 6-8 of the best Zerg on foreigners scene, protoss won most of the tournaments. On GSL, we used to see more Z/P than T, but right now Zerg is the less represented race. Also Zerg breaks a record this year, and had the longest period when they didn't win a tournament on the history of SC2. All show Zerg are doing rather poorly right now compared to the past. But as "Terran community" don't want to accept that reality they try to find everything they can. You use distribution as an argument of casality, it's not a scientific method, it's just a way to manipulate numbers to say what you want. Imagine something like : "There is more women than men, so it's obvious the life is harder for men than women, that's why they die earlier", and when we say : "But, actually men won more money than women, most of the rulers are men", "- Yeah it's because they're more skilled". That's the same argumentation than : "Zerg are more in foreigner tournaments, but they win less because P/T are more skilled"
more like zerg is just the easiest race the game than it's being OP in general, foreigners are not good enough especially terrans, the gap between kr terrans and other terrans is gigantic, there's at least 6 kr terrans that is way better than any foreigner, and level of inno, byun and TY is so high that they managed to outperform kr zergs, but who knows what would be if Life wasn't banned, and soO wasn't so unlucky lol.
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Can we stop with the bullshit 'foreigner', and talk about the changes?
I'd like to point out, the duration of a shield battery is only about 6 seconds, I believe.
The battery gives 3 shield per 1 energy, and recharges at a rate of 51 shield per second. Doing the math gives the duration at ~5.88 seconds.
That isn't a very long time, but long enough for a photon cannon to get a couple more shots.
I'm not entirely sure, but a single shield battery can't sustain a proxy gate build. I don't think we have to worry about that. With constant pokes at the gate, I feel any terran, zerg, or protoss can drain the shield battery before protoss can snowball a gateway attack.
I wonder how shield battery works with a cannon rush. It's a heavy investment to try a cannon battery rush, but I feel some pros, like Has, will try it just to measure its success. I'd like to see him try it.
It's still hard to tell if the shield battery is op, useless, or stupid. Let's try out the current iteration first. All you cannon rush addicts, get to testing!
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On September 23 2017 15:20 Tyrhanius wrote:
That's the same argumentation than : "Zerg are more in foreigner tournaments, but they win less because P/T are more skilled"
So where is the problem you can be skilled and plays an easier race, spamming creep tumors everywhere anybody can contest your field. You can be skilled and play zerg with a little shorter of gap progression in training but in definitive you are always able to perform as well.. So what you say didn t make sense too.
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On September 23 2017 22:35 the_last_terran1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2017 15:20 Tyrhanius wrote:
That's the same argumentation than : "Zerg are more in foreigner tournaments, but they win less because P/T are more skilled" So where is the problem you can be skilled and plays an easier race, spamming creep tumors everywhere anybody can contest your field. You can be skilled and play zerg with a little shorter of gap progression in training but in definitive you are always able to perform as well.. So what you say didn t make sense too.
creep tumors are fine as they are - and the level of skill of foreigner / koreans is really *not* the subject discussed in this thread...
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On September 23 2017 22:42 VHbb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2017 22:35 the_last_terran1 wrote:On September 23 2017 15:20 Tyrhanius wrote:
That's the same argumentation than : "Zerg are more in foreigner tournaments, but they win less because P/T are more skilled" So where is the problem you can be skilled and plays an easier race, spamming creep tumors everywhere anybody can contest your field. You can be skilled and play zerg with a little shorter of gap progression in training but in definitive you are always able to perform as well.. So what you say didn t make sense too. creep tumors are fine as they are - and the level of skill of foreigner / koreans is really *not* the subject discussed in this thread...
Creep tumors is what you see when you are in a zerg skin, when yoou are against you see noothing.. Overlords has the same function of creep, they scoot earlier and most of this thread is talking about the overlords problem. If you dig furhter you can also say without any problems most of the pro players never confirm their will to play with 12 workers (For example Byun and Soo like 6 workers...), if I dig a little bit further i will admit all the build and strategy looks the same in each different match up.
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On September 22 2017 20:50 xTJx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 12:18 youngjiddle wrote:On September 22 2017 11:25 Finch518 wrote:On September 22 2017 11:07 youngjiddle wrote:On September 22 2017 09:32 xTJx wrote:On September 22 2017 08:10 youngjiddle wrote:Classic introduces mass oracle and PvZ winrates normalize to 50%, better nerf it so we go back to 43% again Yeah dude, just because oracles prevent lings from denying the protoss third, deny any nydus counter attack as they also kill buildings and queens fast, obliterate any transfering drones or queens outside spore cover, can harass your drones the whole game with stasis, can just jump on zerg bases once they're about 10 as they kill everything before your units can get there, force infestors as even hydras die to mass oracle, can give infinite vision of zerg's army, can place infinite defensive stasis wards on key locations, are faster than mutas and way faster than corruptors, doesn't mean they're bad game design. Have you considered the possibility that you are bad and haven't used the correct counter play yet. Funny because Scarlett made all these same points on reddit the other day, i guess shes bad and doesnt have the counter play yet either? Neither does Rogue, or SoO too amirite? Ah yes Scarlett the zerg who is queen of balance whining about protoss and SoO the zerg who wants the hydra range buff, I don't take any pro players opinions very strongly. If protoss was really that strong Scarlett would be able to play it at a high level too right? Oh wait, she does exactly that, even entering tournaments as protoss and defeating other progamers. I bet you take Avilo's opinions strongly tho, you look the type.
lol, I was watching neeb play Zerg, ZvP on GM KR ladder and winning, if you think protoss is easy because "a zerg pro can become extremely good at it", you really don't know how good pros are with other races. She even practices protoss, lol.
and no, I don't take avilo's opinions for anything, why would you assume that off of what little I have said? Trying to put down anything I say eh? I said I don't take the popular opinion as always being true and think for myself unlike avilo goons. I am sick of nerfs because of balance whine, like adepts, disrupter, oracles, and the removal of the mothership core.
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One of the aims of the patch was to make Mech better compared to live version. The problem is that the changes achieved the opposite.
I agree that nerfing mass Ravens was a good move. As well as removing Mothership core. But if you look at all the changes in the game mech is actually far weaker on the test patch compared to live.
In TvT mech is slightly weaker. The old missile costed more energy and could only damage, not kill a Tank. The new Raven can disable more tanks which is an advantage for the bio player since they can invest more gas into Ravens. And Ravens will no longer have pdd which means that pdd cannot protect your tanks from mass bio.
In TvZ mech is weaker. Mass Ravens were OP but they were also the one unit that made it possible to fight against Zergs late game. Not having auto turrets and missiles will make TvZ almost impossible. Shredder missiles are close to useless compared to those abilities and scrambler missiles will have almost no meaningful use. Swarm Hosts being slightly slower off creep will have almost no impact.
In TvP mech will go from really weak to completely dead. The new chrono boost combined with higher stalker damage and offensive shield batteries will make it completely impossible to go mech. You will not see mech in a single high-level game in TvP except in the first few weeks after the patch when no one knows what they are doing.
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On September 24 2017 15:06 MockHamill wrote:
One of the aims of the patch was to make Mech better compared to live version.
says who? it's already super strong.
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Wrong thread. Nerf Warp Prism
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I believe swarm hosts are too hard to play against but not too strong.They are not silver bullet in pro matchs at all :-/
They are just...bad design tbh may be terran needs a treatment just like colossus attack speed buff to help pub players.Unlike protoss's case even Gm and master terrans are struggling with this unit.
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Why not have Parasitic Bomb do friendly fire?
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hydralisk-bane (and sh) style players are strong from such long time and blizzard isnt doing something about it, but the oracle build is not even used in all the matchups, still not very popular at all leagues, and it has like 2-3 months on the meta and is already getting a nerf, im really impressed about the balance team on sc2.
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On September 25 2017 04:09 wiNgiAN wrote:
hydralisk-bane (and sh) style players are strong from such long time and blizzard isnt doing something about it, but the oracle build is not even used in all the matchups, still not very popular at all leagues, and it has like 2-3 months on the meta and is already getting a nerf, im really impressed about the balance team on sc2.
That's funny how Zerg players still manage to be kind of objective with some changes, and zerg pros don't hesitate to call a zerg buff OP when it is, but P and T always claim their race are the weakest, and whine on every changes that are not buffs.
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On September 25 2017 06:06 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2017 04:09 wiNgiAN wrote:
hydralisk-bane (and sh) style players are strong from such long time and blizzard isnt doing something about it, but the oracle build is not even used in all the matchups, still not very popular at all leagues, and it has like 2-3 months on the meta and is already getting a nerf, im really impressed about the balance team on sc2. That's funny how Zerg players still manage to be kind of objective with some changes, and zerg pros don't hesitate to call a zerg buff OP when it is, but P and T always claim their race are the weakest, and whine on every changes that are not buffs.
You say that.
Protoss player: "That's funny how Protoss players still manage to be kind of objective with some changes, and Protoss pros don't hesitate to call a Protoss buff OP when it is, but Z and T always claim their race are the weakest, and whine on every changes that are not buffs."
Terran player: "That's funny how Terran players still manage to be kind of objective with some changes, and Terran pros don't hesitate to call a Terran buff OP when it is, but P and Z always claim their race are the weakest, and whine on every changes that are not buffs."
Me:+ Show Spoiler +
The sheer amount of delusion from biased players of all races is unbelievably ironic and incredibly hilarious. If any of you spent half the effort on practicing as you do on whining, you would be competing at Blizzcon.
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On September 25 2017 06:06 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2017 04:09 wiNgiAN wrote:
hydralisk-bane (and sh) style players are strong from such long time and blizzard isnt doing something about it, but the oracle build is not even used in all the matchups, still not very popular at all leagues, and it has like 2-3 months on the meta and is already getting a nerf, im really impressed about the balance team on sc2. That's funny how Zerg players still manage to be kind of objective with some changes, and zerg pros don't hesitate to call a zerg buff OP when it is, but P and T always claim their race are the weakest, and whine on every changes that are not buffs.
Even snute said that the hydra buff was too much and he think that blizzard should revert that.
Snute is one of the best foreigners zerg, and one of the most honest and objetive player in high lvl, i hope its enough for you little man
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I think some people here don't quite understand that Blizzard is intentionally changing up the game rapidly and significantly. Players will inevitably adjust their strategies and find new optimal builds, and I think that's an exciting part of the process. If Blizzard succumbs to pressure and continuously reverts big changes, it's going to be difficult to take the game in a new direction.
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On September 25 2017 07:17 wiNgiAN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2017 06:06 Tyrhanius wrote:On September 25 2017 04:09 wiNgiAN wrote:
hydralisk-bane (and sh) style players are strong from such long time and blizzard isnt doing something about it, but the oracle build is not even used in all the matchups, still not very popular at all leagues, and it has like 2-3 months on the meta and is already getting a nerf, im really impressed about the balance team on sc2. That's funny how Zerg players still manage to be kind of objective with some changes, and zerg pros don't hesitate to call a zerg buff OP when it is, but P and T always claim their race are the weakest, and whine on every changes that are not buffs. Even snute said that the hydra buff was too much and he think that blizzard should revert that. https://clips.twitch.tv/VivaciousFaithfulAnacondaGivePLZSnute is one of the best foreigners zerg, and one of the most honest and objetive player in high lvl, i hope its enough for you little man
Yeah, it's exactly what i'm saying unlike you he is objective, and doesn't hesitate to say something is too strong with his race, while you'll never admit making mass oracles to kill army/buildings, and blocking eggs is too strong.
And please, i'm not your little man, i'm not your friend, keep your arrogant behavior for yourself.
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On September 24 2017 11:11 youngjiddle wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 20:50 xTJx wrote:On September 22 2017 12:18 youngjiddle wrote:On September 22 2017 11:25 Finch518 wrote:On September 22 2017 11:07 youngjiddle wrote:On September 22 2017 09:32 xTJx wrote:On September 22 2017 08:10 youngjiddle wrote:Classic introduces mass oracle and PvZ winrates normalize to 50%, better nerf it so we go back to 43% again Yeah dude, just because oracles prevent lings from denying the protoss third, deny any nydus counter attack as they also kill buildings and queens fast, obliterate any transfering drones or queens outside spore cover, can harass your drones the whole game with stasis, can just jump on zerg bases once they're about 10 as they kill everything before your units can get there, force infestors as even hydras die to mass oracle, can give infinite vision of zerg's army, can place infinite defensive stasis wards on key locations, are faster than mutas and way faster than corruptors, doesn't mean they're bad game design. Have you considered the possibility that you are bad and haven't used the correct counter play yet. Funny because Scarlett made all these same points on reddit the other day, i guess shes bad and doesnt have the counter play yet either? Neither does Rogue, or SoO too amirite? Ah yes Scarlett the zerg who is queen of balance whining about protoss and SoO the zerg who wants the hydra range buff, I don't take any pro players opinions very strongly. If protoss was really that strong Scarlett would be able to play it at a high level too right? Oh wait, she does exactly that, even entering tournaments as protoss and defeating other progamers. I bet you take Avilo's opinions strongly tho, you look the type. lol, I was watching neeb play Zerg, ZvP on GM KR ladder and winning, if you think protoss is easy because "a zerg pro can become extremely good at it", you really don't know how good pros are with other races. She even practices protoss, lol. and no, I don't take avilo's opinions for anything, why would you assume that off of what little I have said? Trying to put down anything I say eh? I said I don't take the popular opinion as always being true and think for myself unlike avilo goons. I am sick of nerfs because of balance whine, like adepts, disrupter, oracles, and the removal of the mothership core.
You're the one trying to put down the criticism against protoss units as balance whining. All your posts are "protoss is not viable", you're literaly the protoss Avilo.
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On September 23 2017 06:12 washikie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 16:36 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On September 22 2017 16:35 DieuCure wrote:But for real, all we are all waiting for is the tankivac return right ? No, never honestly i miss it, I mean yeah it got rid of the gloriuse chess match that was tvt, but frankly tvt has never been as good as it was in wol because of boosted medivacs. And it was alot of fun to make deathball of tanks and drop it places to pick off big chunks of army supply.
Tankivac was definitely the best period of LotV Terran for me, with that said Terran gameplay as been incredibly boring with LotV. Liberators aren't fun to use at all, TvP is like 10 times worse than it was in WoL/HotS. Bio vs Z has been ruined for a year by ultras and the insane eco makes it way more dull than HotS anyway. Hydra ling bane vs bio tank is cool tho atm.
TvT has been fucked up by reapers beyong measure and has been destroyed by medivac boost anyway in HotS.
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You dont need Liberators in TvP if you play like God.
TvT ladder before the cyclone's prod change was like 80% 3rax reaper, the worst period of fun for me.
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HotS TvP was hot garbage. SCV pulls all day every day. Yeah sure, you got the occasionally jaw-dropping outlier like Maru vs Myungsik, but everything else was a snoozefest.
Liberators make that matchup 10x better. Terran can play a defensive macro game with an actual lategame transition and actual positional play. Protoss can do something besides deathballing with Colossus or YOLO all-ins.
If a TvP gets to the midgame without an overwhelming advantage for either player it's got a pretty good chance of becoming awesome. Just look at any of TY's long games on Abyssal.
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You know you haven't played this game in a while when you have no idea what anything being referred to is about your own race (save for the mule, but it could mine gas... wtf!)
I need to come back to this game and give it another go, sounds interesting.
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On September 27 2017 00:54 GoSuNamhciR wrote:
You know you haven't played this game in a while when you have no idea what anything being referred to is about your own race (save for the mule, but it could mine gas... wtf!)
I need to come back to this game and give it another go, sounds interesting.
We need you. My god did I love watching you cheese your way through MLG's.
If only I could only recreate those days.
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On September 27 2017 13:50 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2017 00:54 GoSuNamhciR wrote:
You know you haven't played this game in a while when you have no idea what anything being referred to is about your own race (save for the mule, but it could mine gas... wtf!)
I need to come back to this game and give it another go, sounds interesting. We need you. My god did I love watching you cheese your way through MLG's. If only I could only recreate those days.
Haha thanks man! I would never go truly competitive again, but am definitely interested in picking up the game again. I would just have to see where it went from there if I actually got into it again.
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new balance changes posted on Bnet
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/20975163
Please review our most recent Community Update, as well as other recent Community Updates for additional details on the changes below.
Disruptor
Activation radius reduced from 0.5 to 0.25.
Damage increased from 135 (+25 shields) to 145 (+55 shields).
Purification Nova cooldown reduced from 17.9 to 14.3.
Purification Nova no longer activated by enemy Changelings.
Raven
Shredder Missile debuff duration increased from 10.7 to 21.4 seconds.
Shredder Missile debuff will now display a duration status bar on affected units for all players.
maybe add this to the OP?
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Disruptor
Activation radius reduced from 0.5 to 0.25.
Damage increased from 135 (+25 shields) to 145 (+55 shields).
Is it correct to assume that an army with disruptors in it cannot fire if currently under attack by Zerglings, because the disruptor shot would toggle on the lings and deal 200 damage to the nearby protoss units?
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EPT
![[image loading]](https://m.popkey.co/a818d6/4Vvbx.gif)
