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4 Posts
Having reached the halfway point of the first round of GSL vs The World, eight more players entered the FreecUP studio to complete the quarterfinals. Featuring a full four Korean vs foreigner matchups, the day very well could be the one that most encapsulated the spirit of the event.
Game one started in  sOs' favor but, having given Neeb the time to tech to carriers, things stalled. Circumventing Neeb's dominant army, sOs initiated a base trade. Despite having no bases, Neeb's astronomical archon count saw him come out on top.
sOs' dark templar and Neeb’s adepts each killed nine workers, but the game was never close from there. Stasis wards, forcefields and a superior army composition allowed Neeb to win every engagement and ultimately, the game.
sOs was first to reach three bases on Abyssal Reef, albeit on a lower worker count, while opting for a fast mothership. sOs sniped Neeb's fourth which prompted a counterattack from the North American Protoss that sOs ably held to get on the scoreboard.
Neeb struck back in game four to become the first foreigner to advance into the Round of 8. After early oracles fought to an impasse. Neeb’s move to pair a decisive blink into sOs' main with sentries in a prism allowed him to lock sOs out of his main and log a 3-1 victory.
 TY killed twelve workers early in game one before moving into mech.  Scarlett countered with hydra/bane and then swarmhosts, but was never able get an offense going. TY kept pushing with tanks, hellions and banshees, chipping away at Scarlett to go up 1-0.
Having lost 25 drones to a widow mine drop and hellions, Scarlett moved into roaches and swarm hosts against TY's bio/tank. The composition bought her time to get up to five bases, but TY's eventual push left her with only two hatcheries. Outnumbered and with no economy, she tapped out soon after.
TY continued his dominance in the third game. He macroed up into bio, constantly dropping and harassing with a raven while adding tanks and mines to counter Scarlett's hydra/ling/bane. Scarlett defended valiantly, but finally succumbed to drop the series without winning a game.
Dark jumped out to a quick lead as his early zerglings surrounded Nerchio's queens, allowing zerglings and banelings to walk into Nerchio's main unopposed. Up two hatcheries to one, but facing a stream of zerglings, Nerchio conceded.
Game two was much of the same. Nerchio opened with early zerglings of his own, but, opting for a hatchery follow up, his economy was gutted by a ling/bane run by while losing his army to banelings across the map.
Nerchio staved off elimination with a solid macro game on Acolyte. Displaying great understanding of late game ZvZ, Nerchio outmaneuvered Dark while teching in all the right directions. Ahead on supply, Nerchio locked up the win with a nydus into Dark's main.
After a frenetic early game, Dark pulled ahead with baneling runbys. Nerchio built a larger roach army, but Dark stalled until spire. Mutalisks triggered an attack from Nerchio which Dark cleaned up before lunging into Nerchio's main with enough units to close out the match.
soO's decision to tech into mutalisks proved costly as ShoWTimE hit with a zealot archon timing before soO's banelings had hatched. His zerglings died to zealots and a follow up stalker warp in dealt with the mutalisks as ShoWTimE marched to a game one victory.
After an initial flood of zerglings was stopped by ShoWTimE's natural wall, soO found himself at a disadvantage. He ramped up to hit a ling/bane/hydra timing off three bases, but a warp prism pulled him back, giving ShoWTimE time to assemble a high templar/immortal army soO could not trump.
ShoWTimE's dark templar killed ten workers, but archons failed to add to that total. soO powered into roaches and hydralisks and, after finding ShoWTimE's warp prism mid map, attacked into ShoWTimE's fourth. soO overran the stormless army on the way to his first win.
After ShoWTimE halted soO's hydra timing, the players resigned themselves for the late game. ShoWTimE went for carriers and archons, while soO macro built him a corrupter/brood lord based army. ShoWTimE took a horrendous fight as he got too aggressive, and that was enough for soO to counter and even the series.
ShoWTimE's 3 gate glaive timing killed eleven workers. From there he moved into blink/colossus. soO added corruptors to his ling/bane/hydra just in time, finding a great engagement that reset ShoWTimE's army. It was elementary from there as soO completed the reverse all kill to advance.
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showtime 
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It was a shame.
- Neeb vs. sOs - well done, good series, Neeb played excellent games and sOs was behind.
- TY vs. Scarlett - disappointment, after Scarlett was destroying Inno. in GSL, TY somehow took her seriously, did not make any mistakes and slowly built his lead in each game. So sad about that 3-0.
- Dark vs. Nerchio - if I was a foreigner playing against Dark or Life, I would be sure, they want to make fun of me and would expect pool first. But acknowledgements to Nerchio that he did not break down after 2-0 and won a very good macro game. Unfortunately, Dark was also able to win the next macrogame. But this was a good series.
- ShowTime vs. soO - disappointment, nobody expected anything from ShowTime and he surprised. But a full foreigner at the end it was.
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Now we can call Ro8 - GSL vs. Neeb 
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Really sad of Scarlett perfomance, she really needs to grow in big stages
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A lot of people hyping over soO vs ShoWTimE but I don't think it was the best showing from either of them. ShowtimE played perfect on the first 2 maps but soO made so many stupid mistakes. Then the latter 3 games were ShoWTimE going full foriegner and soO playing like we expected him to.
Still an improvement for ShoWTimE though, if he can maintain the form he showed at the start of the series he can have a good shot in Montreal
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On August 05 2017 00:19 Diabolique wrote:
It was a shame.
- Neeb vs. sOs - well done, good series, Neeb played excellent games and sOs was behind.
- TY vs. Scarlett - disappointment, after Scarlett was destroying Inno. in GSL, TY somehow took her seriously, did not make any mistakes and slowly built his lead in each game. So sad about that 3-0.
- Dark vs. Nerchio - if I was a foreigner playing against Dark or Life, I would be sure, they want to make fun of me and would expect pool first. But acknowledgements to Nerchio that he did not break down after 2-0 and won a very good macro game. Unfortunately, Dark was also able to win the next macrogame. But this was a good series.
- ShowTime vs. soO - disappointment, nobody expected anything from ShowTime and he surprised. But a full foreigner at the end it was.
Inno is so good that losing 1-2 to him can also be sonsidered destroying him.
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United States97276 Posts
neeb justifying his spot in the power rank trashing a top 5 protoss like it was nbd
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Haven't really followed the foreigner scene for a while, is Neeb still considered the consensus #1 foreigner?
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On August 05 2017 02:52 iamho wrote:
Haven't really followed the foreigner scene for a while, is Neeb still considered the consensus #1 foreigner?
Pretty much if you ignore the deluded EU fans...
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On August 05 2017 02:52 iamho wrote:
Haven't really followed the foreigner scene for a while, is Neeb still considered the consensus #1 foreigner?
He has more competition than last year, but yeah pretty much.
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On August 05 2017 01:16 KappaKingPrime wrote:Now we can call Ro8 - GSL vs. Neeb
You forgot about Special.
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On August 05 2017 02:24 ParksonVN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2017 00:19 Diabolique wrote:
It was a shame.
- Neeb vs. sOs - well done, good series, Neeb played excellent games and sOs was behind.
- TY vs. Scarlett - disappointment, after Scarlett was destroying Inno. in GSL, TY somehow took her seriously, did not make any mistakes and slowly built his lead in each game. So sad about that 3-0.
- Dark vs. Nerchio - if I was a foreigner playing against Dark or Life, I would be sure, they want to make fun of me and would expect pool first. But acknowledgements to Nerchio that he did not break down after 2-0 and won a very good macro game. Unfortunately, Dark was also able to win the next macrogame. But this was a good series.
- ShowTime vs. soO - disappointment, nobody expected anything from ShowTime and he surprised. But a full foreigner at the end it was. Inno is so good that losing 1-2 to him can also be sonsidered destroying him.
Inno played horribly against Scarlett but for some reason (delusion) some people think that he was at peak form. Peak Inno doesn't throw away four full medivacs for free, nor does he completely fail to scout the opponent, nor does he lose to just about any Zerg, ever (possibly Life). Peak Inno can be seen in 2013 WCS Season 2 OSL Ro8 against Soulkey, or several other games from the early-HotS era. Inno in the recent GSL Season 3 wasn't even at his 2017 peak, if you want to see that watch Inno vs Dark at IEM Katowice or Inno vs ByuL in GSL Season 1.
TY simply took Scarlett seriously and played safe. He demonstrated what happens when a top KR Terran gets serious against Scarlett.
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On August 05 2017 04:01 Meeii wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2017 01:16 KappaKingPrime wrote:Now we can call Ro8 - GSL vs. Neeb You forgot about Special.
technically he's GSL too
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I don't have all statistics in my head but isn't Elazer better than Nerchio or is it a close call between them?
Nerchio is good but I'm a bit surprised not to see Elazer there.
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On August 05 2017 04:56 muppet70 wrote:
I don't have all statistics in my head but isn't Elazer better than Nerchio or is it a close call between them?
Nerchio is good but I'm a bit surprised not to see Elazer there.
Sadly Elazer was not top 4 in WCS points and did not win the zerg vote either (Scarlett did).
Hard to say who is better, overall Nerchio with his long career, right now probably Elazer.
Definitely close though!
Elazer had great success in ZvZ when he went to Korea, he had an 80% win ratio and was 6-0 vs 7k+ players like Rogue. Sadly he only got to play ZvT in the GSL, would've loved to see him in this event again.
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On August 05 2017 04:26 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2017 02:24 ParksonVN wrote:On August 05 2017 00:19 Diabolique wrote:
It was a shame.
- Neeb vs. sOs - well done, good series, Neeb played excellent games and sOs was behind.
- TY vs. Scarlett - disappointment, after Scarlett was destroying Inno. in GSL, TY somehow took her seriously, did not make any mistakes and slowly built his lead in each game. So sad about that 3-0.
- Dark vs. Nerchio - if I was a foreigner playing against Dark or Life, I would be sure, they want to make fun of me and would expect pool first. But acknowledgements to Nerchio that he did not break down after 2-0 and won a very good macro game. Unfortunately, Dark was also able to win the next macrogame. But this was a good series.
- ShowTime vs. soO - disappointment, nobody expected anything from ShowTime and he surprised. But a full foreigner at the end it was. Inno is so good that losing 1-2 to him can also be sonsidered destroying him. Inno played horribly against Scarlett but for some reason (delusion) some people think that he was at peak form. Peak Inno doesn't throw away four full medivacs for free, nor does he completely fail to scout the opponent, nor does he lose to just about any Zerg, ever (possibly Life). Peak Inno can be seen in 2013 WCS Season 2 OSL Ro8 against Soulkey, or several other games from the early-HotS era. Inno in the recent GSL Season 3 wasn't even at his 2017 peak, if you want to see that watch Inno vs Dark at IEM Katowice or Inno vs ByuL in GSL Season 1. TY simply took Scarlett seriously and played safe. He demonstrated what happens when a top KR Terran gets serious against Scarlett.
here we go again with the innovation circlejerking.
because any time innovation doesn't do something perfect he "just wasn't taking it serious"
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On August 05 2017 05:09 youngjiddle wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2017 04:26 pvsnp wrote:On August 05 2017 02:24 ParksonVN wrote:On August 05 2017 00:19 Diabolique wrote:
It was a shame.
- Neeb vs. sOs - well done, good series, Neeb played excellent games and sOs was behind.
- TY vs. Scarlett - disappointment, after Scarlett was destroying Inno. in GSL, TY somehow took her seriously, did not make any mistakes and slowly built his lead in each game. So sad about that 3-0.
- Dark vs. Nerchio - if I was a foreigner playing against Dark or Life, I would be sure, they want to make fun of me and would expect pool first. But acknowledgements to Nerchio that he did not break down after 2-0 and won a very good macro game. Unfortunately, Dark was also able to win the next macrogame. But this was a good series.
- ShowTime vs. soO - disappointment, nobody expected anything from ShowTime and he surprised. But a full foreigner at the end it was. Inno is so good that losing 1-2 to him can also be sonsidered destroying him. Inno played horribly against Scarlett but for some reason (delusion) some people think that he was at peak form. Peak Inno doesn't throw away four full medivacs for free, nor does he completely fail to scout the opponent, nor does he lose to just about any Zerg, ever (possibly Life). Peak Inno can be seen in 2013 WCS Season 2 OSL Ro8 against Soulkey, or several other games from the early-HotS era. Inno in the recent GSL Season 3 wasn't even at his 2017 peak, if you want to see that watch Inno vs Dark at IEM Katowice or Inno vs ByuL in GSL Season 1. TY simply took Scarlett seriously and played safe. He demonstrated what happens when a top KR Terran gets serious against Scarlett. here we go again with the innovation circlejerking. because any time innovation doesn't do something perfect he "just wasn't taking it serious"
If you actually think a guy regularly called the best player in the world normally makes the mistakes he did against Scarlett, you are blind or ignorant or both. And clearly haven't made the slightest effort to actually watch any of his games.
Come back once you have some semblance of a clue about the context.
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On August 05 2017 04:56 muppet70 wrote:
I don't have all statistics in my head but isn't Elazer better than Nerchio or is it a close call between them?
Nerchio is good but I'm a bit surprised not to see Elazer there.
Ask Nerchio, who is better.
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based Neeb. I'm ready for him to take another Korean-laden tournament.
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United States1876 Posts
On August 05 2017 05:15 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2017 05:09 youngjiddle wrote:On August 05 2017 04:26 pvsnp wrote:On August 05 2017 02:24 ParksonVN wrote:On August 05 2017 00:19 Diabolique wrote:
It was a shame.
- Neeb vs. sOs - well done, good series, Neeb played excellent games and sOs was behind.
- TY vs. Scarlett - disappointment, after Scarlett was destroying Inno. in GSL, TY somehow took her seriously, did not make any mistakes and slowly built his lead in each game. So sad about that 3-0.
- Dark vs. Nerchio - if I was a foreigner playing against Dark or Life, I would be sure, they want to make fun of me and would expect pool first. But acknowledgements to Nerchio that he did not break down after 2-0 and won a very good macro game. Unfortunately, Dark was also able to win the next macrogame. But this was a good series.
- ShowTime vs. soO - disappointment, nobody expected anything from ShowTime and he surprised. But a full foreigner at the end it was. Inno is so good that losing 1-2 to him can also be sonsidered destroying him. Inno played horribly against Scarlett but for some reason (delusion) some people think that he was at peak form. Peak Inno doesn't throw away four full medivacs for free, nor does he completely fail to scout the opponent, nor does he lose to just about any Zerg, ever (possibly Life). Peak Inno can be seen in 2013 WCS Season 2 OSL Ro8 against Soulkey, or several other games from the early-HotS era. Inno in the recent GSL Season 3 wasn't even at his 2017 peak, if you want to see that watch Inno vs Dark at IEM Katowice or Inno vs ByuL in GSL Season 1. TY simply took Scarlett seriously and played safe. He demonstrated what happens when a top KR Terran gets serious against Scarlett. here we go again with the innovation circlejerking. because any time innovation doesn't do something perfect he "just wasn't taking it serious" If you actually think a guy regularly called the best player in the world normally makes the mistakes he did against Scarlett, you are blind or ignorant or both. And clearly haven't made the slightest effort to actually watch any of his games. Come back once you have some semblance of a clue about the context.
"Normally" is an imprecise and poorly chosen word to use in this circumstance. Like all players, INnoVation's form is in constant flux and can probably be fairly represented by a bell curve rather than one line labeled "Normally" with ever error he's ever committed slotted under that to be stricken from memory and discounted as irrelevant. INnoVation's baseline skill level is very high, but just going on this year's results alone (reverse all killed by Stats in GSL Season 1, dropping out in the R16 in Season 2, losing to aLive at Katowice and again in the first round of the Super Tournament) you start to see someone who regularly slips up in tournaments he is one of the heavy favorites (if not THE favorite) in. He won SSL and VSL, (SSL was enormously impressive, VSL not as much) but besides that INnoVation has been coasting on this "best player in the world" image since Gyeonggi. (Which is not in any way an indictment of him or his form. He can't control what people call him.)
I'll say this so people can't misconstrue this post some TL Writer anti-INnoVation propaganda: INnoVation is one of the best players currently playing (and maybe ever in SC2), but he is mortal. It's not INnoVation who calls himself the best player in the world, it's writers like myself and the community (which includes you). Some of the people who do so should be a little more responsible when throwing terms like "Bonjwa" around and saying stuff like "If you actually think a guy regularly called the best player in the world normally makes the mistakes he did against Scarlett, you are blind or ignorant or both." because INnoVation loses plenty in situations he should objectively win, just like every other player. INnoVation lost to Scarlett in that game because Scarlett was the better player on that map, at that moment. He doesn't need you to make excuses for him.
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On August 05 2017 05:59 mizenhauer wrote:
[for] all players, [..] form is in constant flux and can probably be fairly represented by a bell curve
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/nNFz0c4.png)
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On August 05 2017 05:59 mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2017 05:15 pvsnp wrote:On August 05 2017 05:09 youngjiddle wrote:On August 05 2017 04:26 pvsnp wrote:On August 05 2017 02:24 ParksonVN wrote:On August 05 2017 00:19 Diabolique wrote:
It was a shame.
- Neeb vs. sOs - well done, good series, Neeb played excellent games and sOs was behind.
- TY vs. Scarlett - disappointment, after Scarlett was destroying Inno. in GSL, TY somehow took her seriously, did not make any mistakes and slowly built his lead in each game. So sad about that 3-0.
- Dark vs. Nerchio - if I was a foreigner playing against Dark or Life, I would be sure, they want to make fun of me and would expect pool first. But acknowledgements to Nerchio that he did not break down after 2-0 and won a very good macro game. Unfortunately, Dark was also able to win the next macrogame. But this was a good series.
- ShowTime vs. soO - disappointment, nobody expected anything from ShowTime and he surprised. But a full foreigner at the end it was. Inno is so good that losing 1-2 to him can also be sonsidered destroying him. Inno played horribly against Scarlett but for some reason (delusion) some people think that he was at peak form. Peak Inno doesn't throw away four full medivacs for free, nor does he completely fail to scout the opponent, nor does he lose to just about any Zerg, ever (possibly Life). Peak Inno can be seen in 2013 WCS Season 2 OSL Ro8 against Soulkey, or several other games from the early-HotS era. Inno in the recent GSL Season 3 wasn't even at his 2017 peak, if you want to see that watch Inno vs Dark at IEM Katowice or Inno vs ByuL in GSL Season 1. TY simply took Scarlett seriously and played safe. He demonstrated what happens when a top KR Terran gets serious against Scarlett. here we go again with the innovation circlejerking. because any time innovation doesn't do something perfect he "just wasn't taking it serious" If you actually think a guy regularly called the best player in the world normally makes the mistakes he did against Scarlett, you are blind or ignorant or both. And clearly haven't made the slightest effort to actually watch any of his games. Come back once you have some semblance of a clue about the context. "Normally" is an imprecise and poorly chosen word to use in this circumstance. Like all players, INnoVation's form is in constant flux and can probably be fairly represented by a bell curve rather than one line labeled "Normally" with ever error he's ever committed slotted under that to be stricken from memory and discounted as irrelevant. INnoVation's baseline skill level is very high, but just going on this year's results alone (reverse all killed by Stats in GSL Season 1, dropping out in the R16 in Season 2, losing to aLive at Katowice and again in the first round of the Super Tournament) you start to see someone who regularly slips up in tournaments he is one of the heavy favorites (if not THE favorite) in. He won SSL and VSL, (SSL was enormously impressive, VSL not as much) but besides that INnoVation has been coasting on this "best player in the world" image since Gyeonggi. (Which is not in any way an indictment of him or his form. He can't control what people call him.) I'll say this so people can't misconstrue this post some TL Writer anti-INnoVation propaganda: INnoVation is one of the best players currently playing (and maybe ever in SC2), but he is mortal. It's not INnoVation who calls himself the best player in the world, it's writers like myself and the community (which includes you). Some of the people who do so should be a little more responsible when throwing terms like "Bonjwa" around and saying stuff like "If you actually think a guy regularly called the best player in the world normally makes the mistakes he did against Scarlett, you are blind or ignorant or both." because INnoVation loses plenty in situations he should objectively win, just like every other player. INnoVation lost to Scarlett in that game because Scarlett was the better player on that map, at that moment. He doesn't need you to make excuses for him
Thank you. Recognizing the subtleties of a player's form and how said player is viewed in the SC2 zeitgeist is rarely done, in my experience. I usually lack the patience to explain such nuances in the lowest-common-denominator environment of internet forums (especially when the conversation starts with such an intelligent opener as "here we go again with the INnoVation circlejerking").
Also I am mildly annoyed that you seem to have forgotten my post about the cultural relativism regarding the definition of bonjwa.
Though regarding your criticism of "normally" as an "imprecise and poorly chosen word," then immediately referring to bell curves just made me laugh, even though I know this is semantics (technical vs vernacular definitions):
![[image loading]](https://www.mathsisfun.com/data/images/normal-distrubution-large.svg)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_distribution
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On August 05 2017 06:13 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2017 05:59 mizenhauer wrote:
[for] all players, [..] form is in constant flux and can probably be fairly represented by a bell curve
This is an impossibly accurate depiction
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United States1876 Posts
On August 05 2017 06:17 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2017 06:13 Ej_ wrote:On August 05 2017 05:59 mizenhauer wrote:
[for] all players, [..] form is in constant flux and can probably be fairly represented by a bell curve This is an impossibly accurate depiction
I wasn't talking about over a period of time btw. I simply meant that most of the time players play at (or around) their baseline skill level and then, over a lesser amount of the time, they fall short of or exceed it. But, yes, that is Dear's career trajectory, although it actually peaked far higher and dipped lower. 
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my prediction was
ro16
Stats > herO
SpeCial > Kelazhur
INnoVation > iAsonu
Serral < ByuN
Neeb > sOs
TY > Scarlett
Nerchio < Dark
soO > ShoWTimE
ro8
Stats > SpeCial
INnoVation > ByuN
Neeb < TY
Dark < soO
ro4
Stats < INnoVation
TY > soO
final
INnoVation < TY
and looks like my predictions for first 2 days are all right :D
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On August 05 2017 06:39 CBAS2TheHumanLife wrote:
my prediction was
ro16
Stats > herO
SpeCial > Kelazhur
INnoVation > iAsonu
Serral < ByuN
Neeb > sOs
TY > Scarlett
Nerchio < Dark
soO > ShoWTimE
ro8
Stats > SpeCial
INnoVation > ByuN
Neeb < TY
Dark < soO
ro4
Stats < INnoVation
TY > soO
final
INnoVation < TY
and looks like my predictions for first 2 days are all right :D
i'll be back at the end of the tournament to tell everyone my predictions :D
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On August 05 2017 06:42 FataLe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2017 06:39 CBAS2TheHumanLife wrote:
my prediction was
ro16
Stats > herO
SpeCial > Kelazhur
INnoVation > iAsonu
Serral < ByuN
Neeb > sOs
TY > Scarlett
Nerchio < Dark
soO > ShoWTimE
ro8
Stats > SpeCial
INnoVation > ByuN
Neeb < TY
Dark < soO
ro4
Stats < INnoVation
TY > soO
final
INnoVation < TY
and looks like my predictions for first 2 days are all right :D i'll be back at the end of the tournament to tell everyone my predictions :D
This :')
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On August 05 2017 05:15 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2017 05:09 youngjiddle wrote:On August 05 2017 04:26 pvsnp wrote:On August 05 2017 02:24 ParksonVN wrote:On August 05 2017 00:19 Diabolique wrote:
It was a shame.
- Neeb vs. sOs - well done, good series, Neeb played excellent games and sOs was behind.
- TY vs. Scarlett - disappointment, after Scarlett was destroying Inno. in GSL, TY somehow took her seriously, did not make any mistakes and slowly built his lead in each game. So sad about that 3-0.
- Dark vs. Nerchio - if I was a foreigner playing against Dark or Life, I would be sure, they want to make fun of me and would expect pool first. But acknowledgements to Nerchio that he did not break down after 2-0 and won a very good macro game. Unfortunately, Dark was also able to win the next macrogame. But this was a good series.
- ShowTime vs. soO - disappointment, nobody expected anything from ShowTime and he surprised. But a full foreigner at the end it was. Inno is so good that losing 1-2 to him can also be sonsidered destroying him. Inno played horribly against Scarlett but for some reason (delusion) some people think that he was at peak form. Peak Inno doesn't throw away four full medivacs for free, nor does he completely fail to scout the opponent, nor does he lose to just about any Zerg, ever (possibly Life). Peak Inno can be seen in 2013 WCS Season 2 OSL Ro8 against Soulkey, or several other games from the early-HotS era. Inno in the recent GSL Season 3 wasn't even at his 2017 peak, if you want to see that watch Inno vs Dark at IEM Katowice or Inno vs ByuL in GSL Season 1. TY simply took Scarlett seriously and played safe. He demonstrated what happens when a top KR Terran gets serious against Scarlett. here we go again with the innovation circlejerking. because any time innovation doesn't do something perfect he "just wasn't taking it serious" If you actually think a guy regularly called the best player in the world normally makes the mistakes he did against Scarlett, you are blind or ignorant or both. And clearly haven't made the slightest effort to actually watch any of his games. Come back once you have some semblance of a clue about the context.
I never claimed he regularly makes mistakes, what are you talking about? I hate when people do this.
Every player makes mistakes, so scarlett took a game. Why do people always have to discredit people's wins by saying "oh, you know he wasn't being himself, he's blah blah blah.
He lost a game.
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Stats wins the tournament. Only iAsonu is capable of beating Stats atm and he is out of the tournament.
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We got oneeee!
Also props for that Dear skill graph. It's so accurate!
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i'll be back at the end of the tournament to tell everyone my predictions :D
the first two days were very easy to predict for anyone. All Koreans victory except Neeb > sOs cuz even Koreans predicted that Neeb will beat sOs :D
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This :')
Do not ever doubt on Dark's vs foreigner again 
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I don't have all statistics in my head but isn't Elazer better than Nerchio or is it a close call between them?
Nerchio is good but I'm a bit surprised not to see Elazer there.
Nerchio was invited as top 4 in WCS Circuit. And I was also surprised that sOs was picked instead of GuMiho, Maru and Classic. (I understand that Rogue and Zest weren't picked as they were not showing great performances at that time during votes) but yea.. it was votes from fans, so what can you do about it?
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On August 05 2017 05:59 mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2017 05:15 pvsnp wrote:On August 05 2017 05:09 youngjiddle wrote:On August 05 2017 04:26 pvsnp wrote:On August 05 2017 02:24 ParksonVN wrote:On August 05 2017 00:19 Diabolique wrote:
It was a shame.
- Neeb vs. sOs - well done, good series, Neeb played excellent games and sOs was behind.
- TY vs. Scarlett - disappointment, after Scarlett was destroying Inno. in GSL, TY somehow took her seriously, did not make any mistakes and slowly built his lead in each game. So sad about that 3-0.
- Dark vs. Nerchio - if I was a foreigner playing against Dark or Life, I would be sure, they want to make fun of me and would expect pool first. But acknowledgements to Nerchio that he did not break down after 2-0 and won a very good macro game. Unfortunately, Dark was also able to win the next macrogame. But this was a good series.
- ShowTime vs. soO - disappointment, nobody expected anything from ShowTime and he surprised. But a full foreigner at the end it was. Inno is so good that losing 1-2 to him can also be sonsidered destroying him. Inno played horribly against Scarlett but for some reason (delusion) some people think that he was at peak form. Peak Inno doesn't throw away four full medivacs for free, nor does he completely fail to scout the opponent, nor does he lose to just about any Zerg, ever (possibly Life). Peak Inno can be seen in 2013 WCS Season 2 OSL Ro8 against Soulkey, or several other games from the early-HotS era. Inno in the recent GSL Season 3 wasn't even at his 2017 peak, if you want to see that watch Inno vs Dark at IEM Katowice or Inno vs ByuL in GSL Season 1. TY simply took Scarlett seriously and played safe. He demonstrated what happens when a top KR Terran gets serious against Scarlett. here we go again with the innovation circlejerking. because any time innovation doesn't do something perfect he "just wasn't taking it serious" If you actually think a guy regularly called the best player in the world normally makes the mistakes he did against Scarlett, you are blind or ignorant or both. And clearly haven't made the slightest effort to actually watch any of his games. Come back once you have some semblance of a clue about the context. "Normally" is an imprecise and poorly chosen word to use in this circumstance. Like all players, INnoVation's form is in constant flux and can probably be fairly represented by a bell curve rather than one line labeled "Normally" with ever error he's ever committed slotted under that to be stricken from memory and discounted as irrelevant. INnoVation's baseline skill level is very high, but just going on this year's results alone (reverse all killed by Stats in GSL Season 1, dropping out in the R16 in Season 2, losing to aLive at Katowice and again in the first round of the Super Tournament) you start to see someone who regularly slips up in tournaments he is one of the heavy favorites (if not THE favorite) in. He won SSL and VSL, (SSL was enormously impressive, VSL not as much) but besides that INnoVation has been coasting on this "best player in the world" image since Gyeonggi. (Which is not in any way an indictment of him or his form. He can't control what people call him.) I'll say this so people can't misconstrue this post some TL Writer anti-INnoVation propaganda: INnoVation is one of the best players currently playing (and maybe ever in SC2), but he is mortal. It's not INnoVation who calls himself the best player in the world, it's writers like myself and the community (which includes you). Some of the people who do so should be a little more responsible when throwing terms like "Bonjwa" around and saying stuff like "If you actually think a guy regularly called the best player in the world normally makes the mistakes he did against Scarlett, you are blind or ignorant or both." because INnoVation loses plenty in situations he should objectively win, just like every other player. INnoVation lost to Scarlett in that game because Scarlett was the better player on that map, at that moment. He doesn't need you to make excuses for him.
Great post.
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On August 05 2017 06:13 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2017 05:59 mizenhauer wrote:
[for] all players, [..] form is in constant flux and can probably be fairly represented by a bell curve
oh my god thank you. this is how i felt liquibetting on Dear games last season
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On August 05 2017 05:15 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2017 05:09 youngjiddle wrote:On August 05 2017 04:26 pvsnp wrote:On August 05 2017 02:24 ParksonVN wrote:On August 05 2017 00:19 Diabolique wrote:
It was a shame.
- Neeb vs. sOs - well done, good series, Neeb played excellent games and sOs was behind.
- TY vs. Scarlett - disappointment, after Scarlett was destroying Inno. in GSL, TY somehow took her seriously, did not make any mistakes and slowly built his lead in each game. So sad about that 3-0.
- Dark vs. Nerchio - if I was a foreigner playing against Dark or Life, I would be sure, they want to make fun of me and would expect pool first. But acknowledgements to Nerchio that he did not break down after 2-0 and won a very good macro game. Unfortunately, Dark was also able to win the next macrogame. But this was a good series.
- ShowTime vs. soO - disappointment, nobody expected anything from ShowTime and he surprised. But a full foreigner at the end it was. Inno is so good that losing 1-2 to him can also be sonsidered destroying him. Inno played horribly against Scarlett but for some reason (delusion) some people think that he was at peak form. Peak Inno doesn't throw away four full medivacs for free, nor does he completely fail to scout the opponent, nor does he lose to just about any Zerg, ever (possibly Life). Peak Inno can be seen in 2013 WCS Season 2 OSL Ro8 against Soulkey, or several other games from the early-HotS era. Inno in the recent GSL Season 3 wasn't even at his 2017 peak, if you want to see that watch Inno vs Dark at IEM Katowice or Inno vs ByuL in GSL Season 1. TY simply took Scarlett seriously and played safe. He demonstrated what happens when a top KR Terran gets serious against Scarlett. here we go again with the innovation circlejerking. because any time innovation doesn't do something perfect he "just wasn't taking it serious" If you actually think a guy regularly called the best player in the world normally makes the mistakes he did against Scarlett, you are blind or ignorant or both. And clearly haven't made the slightest effort to actually watch any of his games. Come back once you have some semblance of a clue about the context.
you're proving his point. yes inno makes mistakes, yes he will lose games and no you don't get to make up that he "didnt care". i understand youre a big fan of the player but hes not a perfect unbeatable god and he will make a percentage of mistakes like any other player - just the lowest percentage. when the top player has his worst day that still counts. if you count only a player's best day then everyone is innovation. what makes him different is consistently making fewer mistakes than anyone, not being "above" mistakes like some kind of morally pure archangel beast
the player worship in sc2 is embarrassing...
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i had stated before that i thought all foreigners would be roflstomped except neeb who had a chance, yuuuuuup thats exactly what happened. neeb is the real deal holy shit. although showtime put up a good showing looks like. fell asleep so didnt watch the matches.
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On August 05 2017 04:26 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2017 02:24 ParksonVN wrote:On August 05 2017 00:19 Diabolique wrote:
It was a shame.
- Neeb vs. sOs - well done, good series, Neeb played excellent games and sOs was behind.
- TY vs. Scarlett - disappointment, after Scarlett was destroying Inno. in GSL, TY somehow took her seriously, did not make any mistakes and slowly built his lead in each game. So sad about that 3-0.
- Dark vs. Nerchio - if I was a foreigner playing against Dark or Life, I would be sure, they want to make fun of me and would expect pool first. But acknowledgements to Nerchio that he did not break down after 2-0 and won a very good macro game. Unfortunately, Dark was also able to win the next macrogame. But this was a good series.
- ShowTime vs. soO - disappointment, nobody expected anything from ShowTime and he surprised. But a full foreigner at the end it was. Inno is so good that losing 1-2 to him can also be sonsidered destroying him. Inno played horribly against Scarlett but for some reason (delusion) some people think that he was at peak form. Peak Inno doesn't throw away four full medivacs for free, nor does he completely fail to scout the opponent, nor does he lose to just about any Zerg, ever (possibly Life). Peak Inno can be seen in 2013 WCS Season 2 OSL Ro8 against Soulkey, or several other games from the early-HotS era. Inno in the recent GSL Season 3 wasn't even at his 2017 peak, if you want to see that watch Inno vs Dark at IEM Katowice or Inno vs ByuL in GSL Season 1. TY simply took Scarlett seriously and played safe. He demonstrated what happens when a top KR Terran gets serious against Scarlett.
Peak Inno in 2013 threw away full medivacs tho. It was glorious tbh.
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On August 05 2017 07:24 youngjiddle wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2017 05:15 pvsnp wrote:On August 05 2017 05:09 youngjiddle wrote:On August 05 2017 04:26 pvsnp wrote:On August 05 2017 02:24 ParksonVN wrote:On August 05 2017 00:19 Diabolique wrote:
It was a shame.
- Neeb vs. sOs - well done, good series, Neeb played excellent games and sOs was behind.
- TY vs. Scarlett - disappointment, after Scarlett was destroying Inno. in GSL, TY somehow took her seriously, did not make any mistakes and slowly built his lead in each game. So sad about that 3-0.
- Dark vs. Nerchio - if I was a foreigner playing against Dark or Life, I would be sure, they want to make fun of me and would expect pool first. But acknowledgements to Nerchio that he did not break down after 2-0 and won a very good macro game. Unfortunately, Dark was also able to win the next macrogame. But this was a good series.
- ShowTime vs. soO - disappointment, nobody expected anything from ShowTime and he surprised. But a full foreigner at the end it was. Inno is so good that losing 1-2 to him can also be sonsidered destroying him. Inno played horribly against Scarlett but for some reason (delusion) some people think that he was at peak form. Peak Inno doesn't throw away four full medivacs for free, nor does he completely fail to scout the opponent, nor does he lose to just about any Zerg, ever (possibly Life). Peak Inno can be seen in 2013 WCS Season 2 OSL Ro8 against Soulkey, or several other games from the early-HotS era. Inno in the recent GSL Season 3 wasn't even at his 2017 peak, if you want to see that watch Inno vs Dark at IEM Katowice or Inno vs ByuL in GSL Season 1. TY simply took Scarlett seriously and played safe. He demonstrated what happens when a top KR Terran gets serious against Scarlett. here we go again with the innovation circlejerking. because any time innovation doesn't do something perfect he "just wasn't taking it serious" If you actually think a guy regularly called the best player in the world normally makes the mistakes he did against Scarlett, you are blind or ignorant or both. And clearly haven't made the slightest effort to actually watch any of his games. Come back once you have some semblance of a clue about the context. I never claimed he regularly makes mistakes, what are you talking about? I hate when people do this. Every player makes mistakes, so scarlett took a game. Why do people always have to discredit people's wins by saying "oh, you know he wasn't being himself, he's blah blah blah. He lost a game.
On August 05 2017 09:30 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2017 05:15 pvsnp wrote:On August 05 2017 05:09 youngjiddle wrote:On August 05 2017 04:26 pvsnp wrote:On August 05 2017 02:24 ParksonVN wrote:On August 05 2017 00:19 Diabolique wrote:
It was a shame.
- Neeb vs. sOs - well done, good series, Neeb played excellent games and sOs was behind.
- TY vs. Scarlett - disappointment, after Scarlett was destroying Inno. in GSL, TY somehow took her seriously, did not make any mistakes and slowly built his lead in each game. So sad about that 3-0.
- Dark vs. Nerchio - if I was a foreigner playing against Dark or Life, I would be sure, they want to make fun of me and would expect pool first. But acknowledgements to Nerchio that he did not break down after 2-0 and won a very good macro game. Unfortunately, Dark was also able to win the next macrogame. But this was a good series.
- ShowTime vs. soO - disappointment, nobody expected anything from ShowTime and he surprised. But a full foreigner at the end it was. Inno is so good that losing 1-2 to him can also be sonsidered destroying him. Inno played horribly against Scarlett but for some reason (delusion) some people think that he was at peak form. Peak Inno doesn't throw away four full medivacs for free, nor does he completely fail to scout the opponent, nor does he lose to just about any Zerg, ever (possibly Life). Peak Inno can be seen in 2013 WCS Season 2 OSL Ro8 against Soulkey, or several other games from the early-HotS era. Inno in the recent GSL Season 3 wasn't even at his 2017 peak, if you want to see that watch Inno vs Dark at IEM Katowice or Inno vs ByuL in GSL Season 1. TY simply took Scarlett seriously and played safe. He demonstrated what happens when a top KR Terran gets serious against Scarlett. here we go again with the innovation circlejerking. because any time innovation doesn't do something perfect he "just wasn't taking it serious" If you actually think a guy regularly called the best player in the world normally makes the mistakes he did against Scarlett, you are blind or ignorant or both. And clearly haven't made the slightest effort to actually watch any of his games. Come back once you have some semblance of a clue about the context. you're proving his point. yes inno makes mistakes, yes he will lose games and no you don't get to make up that he "didnt care". i understand youre a big fan of the player but hes not a perfect unbeatable god and he will make a percentage of mistakes like any other player - just the lowest percentage. when the top player has his worst day that still counts. if you count only a player's best day then everyone is innovation. what makes him different is consistently making fewer mistakes than anyone, not being "above" mistakes like some kind of morally pure archangel beast the player worship in sc2 is embarrassing...
On August 05 2017 12:27 Phredxor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2017 04:26 pvsnp wrote:On August 05 2017 02:24 ParksonVN wrote:On August 05 2017 00:19 Diabolique wrote:
It was a shame.
- Neeb vs. sOs - well done, good series, Neeb played excellent games and sOs was behind.
- TY vs. Scarlett - disappointment, after Scarlett was destroying Inno. in GSL, TY somehow took her seriously, did not make any mistakes and slowly built his lead in each game. So sad about that 3-0.
- Dark vs. Nerchio - if I was a foreigner playing against Dark or Life, I would be sure, they want to make fun of me and would expect pool first. But acknowledgements to Nerchio that he did not break down after 2-0 and won a very good macro game. Unfortunately, Dark was also able to win the next macrogame. But this was a good series.
- ShowTime vs. soO - disappointment, nobody expected anything from ShowTime and he surprised. But a full foreigner at the end it was. Inno is so good that losing 1-2 to him can also be sonsidered destroying him. Inno played horribly against Scarlett but for some reason (delusion) some people think that he was at peak form. Peak Inno doesn't throw away four full medivacs for free, nor does he completely fail to scout the opponent, nor does he lose to just about any Zerg, ever (possibly Life). Peak Inno can be seen in 2013 WCS Season 2 OSL Ro8 against Soulkey, or several other games from the early-HotS era. Inno in the recent GSL Season 3 wasn't even at his 2017 peak, if you want to see that watch Inno vs Dark at IEM Katowice or Inno vs ByuL in GSL Season 1. TY simply took Scarlett seriously and played safe. He demonstrated what happens when a top KR Terran gets serious against Scarlett. Peak Inno in 2013 threw away full medivacs tho. It was glorious tbh.
Mizenhauer already addressed everything, and I don't feel like reiterating what he said. Suffice to say fluctuations in form happen to everyone, and Inno that day was hardly in peak form. It's only fair to apply the same logic to every other player, including Scarlett.
Expecting her to play as well as she did against Inno, or for TY to play as poorly as he did when he got reverse-swept by soO, is just as foolish as assuming Inno will always be in peak form or that he will always get reverse-swept.
Assuming a sufficiently large sample (relatively speaking) a rough (and inherently subjective) estimate of the median form of a player can be deduced, and applied for predictive purposes (basically a crude form of regression). It might sound complex but it's very intuitive and probably what any rational person is already doing. Such a prediction won't always be correct, of course, but it's better than nothing. And applying this back to the original point, TY > Scarlett, so it shouldn't be a surprise or disappointment that he won 3-0 yesterday (as OP expressed), Scarlett's momentary peak in GSL notwithstanding (after today it appears to be an outlier).
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Congratulations to the winners!
On August 05 2017 13:12 pvsnp wrote:
WORDS
Someone please make it stop.
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On August 05 2017 13:34 zyce wrote:Congratulations to the winners! Someone please make it stop.
It looks like I included this line for nothing.
On August 05 2017 13:12 pvsnp wrote:
It might sound complex but it's very intuitive and probably what any rational person is already doing.
Without bringing the actual math in (though least-squares is not particularly complex itself), there's nothing counterintuitive about using past results to predict future performance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Least_squares
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Thats a lot of words. All i'm saying it that peak Inno isn't perfect either. He can indeed fly medivacacs into certain death and has done so.
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4 interesting series. the Protoss mirror was good. the Zerg mirror was ok. i liked seeing Mech from TY in game 1. the game is in a great spot.
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On August 05 2017 08:16 CBAS2TheHumanLife wrote:Show nested quote +I don't have all statistics in my head but isn't Elazer better than Nerchio or is it a close call between them?
Nerchio is good but I'm a bit surprised not to see Elazer there. Nerchio was invited as top 4 in WCS Circuit. And I was also surprised that sOs was picked instead of GuMiho, Maru and Classic. (I understand that Rogue and Zest weren't picked as they were not showing great performances at that time during votes) but yea.. it was votes from fans, so what can you do about it?
I thought so too, but looking at liquipedia
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Portal:2017_WCS
Elazer is sitting 2 pinholes above Nerchio.
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On August 05 2017 23:49 muppet70 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2017 08:16 CBAS2TheHumanLife wrote:I don't have all statistics in my head but isn't Elazer better than Nerchio or is it a close call between them?
Nerchio is good but I'm a bit surprised not to see Elazer there. Nerchio was invited as top 4 in WCS Circuit. And I was also surprised that sOs was picked instead of GuMiho, Maru and Classic. (I understand that Rogue and Zest weren't picked as they were not showing great performances at that time during votes) but yea.. it was votes from fans, so what can you do about it? I thought so too, but looking at liquipedia http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Portal:2017_WCSElazer is sitting 2 pinholes above Nerchio.
That's after the last WCS tournament, which wasn't considered yet for GSL vs The World. Before that, Nerchio was ahead of Elazer so he got invited.
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EPT
