On July 12 2017 14:44 Avexyli wrote: I would rather we completely stop this "bring back old maps" thing.
So much this. New maps keep the game fresh, old maps don't.
Old proven and balanced maps keep the game stabilized. That keeps meta developing. That keeps the game fresh. period.
New maps (made only to fit blizzards mapmaking "standards" which originated from the fact they are completely lost and clueless on how to increase the game's popularity) bring nothing but frustration to dedicated players, distract them, making meta unstable and hard to follow thus leading to premature balance tweaks that lead to more frustration etc.
So no, we won't stop asking for old maps.
you mean old proven and balanced maps for HotS/WoL because almost all of them are pretty mediocre/subpar in LotV
Yeah, that's why all korean tournaments are played on them, because they are mediocre and supbar in LotV
They play on them because the players are familiar with them. Regardless of that, the maps are at best mediocre for LotV. Terrain issues (liberators), layout problems...
I don't really want to sound offensive but...
Yeah I don't either, but if you don't even understand what issues liberators cause with maps this isn't going to go anywhere.
So can you actually name these issues? And how they specifically impact the gameplay on old maps, stagnating meta or somehow limiting players or who knows promoting certain kind of strategies or w/e.
On July 12 2017 20:15 Elentos wrote: The other part you don't understand that it's not about HotS maps vs LotV maps in particular. Some of the maps that were tried out weren't bad (though imo still at best mediocre). I think Coda could be a very good map for LotV. But specific maps like Bel'Shir Vestige, Cactus Valley or Overgrowth didn't work out very well in LotV whenever they were tried in professional play.
Overgrowth was used in Proleague and is used in SSL, but quite frankly, no LotV game on Overgrowth is memorable for its quality. Frost has worked out decently and I'd personally be fine with playing it, but as you can see from Snute's comments, pros aren't enthused because of the massive differences between spawns.
Of course i can't understand something that doesn't exist. Especially if your argumentation is basically about "this being bad and that being good, something working out and something not working out" etc. And btw i wasnt talking about games being memorable at all.
On July 12 2017 19:52 insitelol wrote: name any new strat/meta twist (whithin a 3 years period) that was a direct product of a new map(pool). If they were so fresh...
tank drop vs Z on Deadwing, tank push vs Z on KSS, spine/SH strat on Deadwing and Vaani, macro 2rax on MGR, 2 base tempest into blink all-in vs Zerg on Dash and Terminal from the top of my head and then all the gold base shenanigans on Overgrowth/Habitation/Odyssey and backdoor rocks cheeses on Expedition Lost/Bridgehead/Dasan
This is the list of specific map abuses. In this case strat is gone along with map being thrown out of mappool. What i was talking about is an example of how exactly a certain map influenced meta developement (unit compositions/expansion time etc being used by players regardless of a certain map). This or that abuse or cheese being available on some maps has nothing to do with this.
On July 12 2017 20:54 Ej_ wrote: btw, it's PPS (post post scriptum), not PSS
:rollingeyes:
On July 12 2017 21:34 Meavis wrote: guys guys, how about we just lock in 7 maps forever so we never have to bother with replacing old maps at all.
New pool is a step in the right direction. The maps they got rid of are horrible. Hopefully the new ones are good.
I'm glad Abyssal Reef is staying in, I think it's the best LoTV original map. Hopefully it stays until blizzcon, becuase it tends to deliver the best pro level games
On July 12 2017 21:34 Meavis wrote: guys guys, how about we just lock in 7 maps forever so we never have to bother with replacing old maps at all.
Exactly.
lmao i can't believe you actually thought he was serious
lmao i can't believe you actually thought i thought he was serious. He wasn't. I was.
it was blatant satire, people that support this argument are far from aware from the consequences this situation would bring. first there's the false assumption that this supposed map pool is ideal and thus never has to change, this will never happen due to the conflicting opinions on what an ideal map pool is. then there is the completely forgotten factor of time, freezing any recent map pool may seem like a good ideal, but suppose a decision like this was made some time ago, I'm sure you wouldn't mind playing on lerilak forever right? ruins of seras maybe? we could go even further back to maps like heavy rain.
speaking of heavy rain, that brings up a very good reason to change maps, balance and meta, heavy rain was one of a couple of maps where winrates massively exploded into protoss favor during the blink era of HotS.
but let's assume a perfect world where the meta never changes, or use the argument that maps will be rotated when these type of events occur.
there are perfect examples of what happens when neither meta or maps ever change, all you have to do is look towards the end of WoL where meta stagnated almost completely and a particular set of maps persisted through any pool changes.
people got sick of playing the same maps over and over, and even more sick of the turtle push meta these maps shaped,
during this very same period there was a different meta played elsewhere, where? in the GSL where maps adapted, where maps such as whirlwind tore broodlord infestor apart.
On July 12 2017 07:08 Liquid`Snute wrote: Abyssal is a contender for greatest map of all time and deserves at least one more season so thank goodness it stays. If I were to decide I'd leave it in forever until 7 better alternatives pop up. It takes some serious effort to find a total of 7 maps that are superior to Abyssal Reef, and size wise it fits well into almost any map pool composition, it's a perfect M/L size map.
It's comments like this that make me happy to be part of this community. I've got a lot of flack from my...not so well received maps, but a simple comment like yours is all it takes to make those negative comments fade away. I hope to keep creating new content for everybody to enjoy. Thank you! =)
On July 12 2017 07:08 Liquid`Snute wrote: Abyssal is a contender for greatest map of all time and deserves at least one more season so thank goodness it stays. If I were to decide I'd leave it in forever until 7 better alternatives pop up. It takes some serious effort to find a total of 7 maps that are superior to Abyssal Reef, and size wise it fits well into almost any map pool composition, it's a perfect M/L size map.
It's comments like this that make me happy to be part of this community. I've got a lot of flack from my...not so well received maps, but a simple comment like yours is all it takes to make those negative comments fade away. I hope to keep creating new content for everybody to enjoy. Thank you! =)
sidian your maps are literally the worst thing to ever happen to sc2, this dude's definitely some bronze scrub who doesn't know what he's talking about
I really don't mind frost, I've had so many great games on that map in lotv too.. great memories with my friends.
I love the idea that 4 player maps should be in the map pool. It's nice to have a map where cheese isn't viable or good. Makes series way more interesting.
If they remove frost they better add a 4p map... maybe dusk towers lol.
On July 13 2017 12:48 youngjiddle wrote: I really don't mind frost, I've had so many great games on that map in lotv too.. great memories with my friends.
I love the idea that 4 player maps should be in the map pool. It's nice to have a map where cheese isn't viable or good. Makes series way more interesting.
If they remove frost they better add a 4p map... maybe dusk towers lol.
Cheese is viable on Frost though (I guess you could argue that 3-rax reaper builds aren't cheese since they aren't easy to defeat when scouted, but the point remains).
On July 12 2017 07:08 Liquid`Snute wrote: Abyssal is a contender for greatest map of all time and deserves at least one more season so thank goodness it stays. If I were to decide I'd leave it in forever until 7 better alternatives pop up. It takes some serious effort to find a total of 7 maps that are superior to Abyssal Reef, and size wise it fits well into almost any map pool composition, it's a perfect M/L size map.
It's comments like this that make me happy to be part of this community. I've got a lot of flack from my...not so well received maps, but a simple comment like yours is all it takes to make those negative comments fade away. I hope to keep creating new content for everybody to enjoy. Thank you! =)
sidian your maps are literally the worst thing to ever happen to sc2, this dude's definitely some bronze scrub who doesn't know what he's talking about
On July 12 2017 14:44 Avexyli wrote: I would rather we completely stop this "bring back old maps" thing.
So much this. New maps keep the game fresh, old maps don't.
Old proven and balanced maps keep the game stabilized. That keeps meta developing. That keeps the game fresh. period.
New maps (made only to fit blizzards mapmaking "standards" which originated from the fact they are completely lost and clueless on how to increase the game's popularity) bring nothing but frustration to dedicated players, distract them, making meta unstable and hard to follow thus leading to premature balance tweaks that lead to more frustration etc.
So no, we won't stop asking for old maps.
you mean old proven and balanced maps for HotS/WoL because almost all of them are pretty mediocre/subpar in LotV
Yeah, that's why all korean tournaments are played on them, because they are mediocre and supbar in LotV, while defenders landing, blood boil and sequencer are so innovative and fresh. Why don't we give them another try?
On July 12 2017 18:16 killerm12 wrote: and no, old maps don't keep things fresh, they make it stagnant, meta is already developed.
Sure thring. Fighting spirit and blue storm always kept BW meta stagnant and it never got a chance to develop. Oh wait. There is still balance rant in the commnutity after 20 years of "stagnant" meta.
edit: I'm sorry to dissapoint you but SC2 Meta is still in prenatal state.
please never bring up brood war maps and the affect on balance in comparison with starcraft 2.
I can garauntee you there is no equivalency because the games are drastically different, the features of maps wildly more important than they are in starcraft 2.
On July 12 2017 07:08 Liquid`Snute wrote: Abyssal is a contender for greatest map of all time and deserves at least one more season so thank goodness it stays. If I were to decide I'd leave it in forever until 7 better alternatives pop up. It takes some serious effort to find a total of 7 maps that are superior to Abyssal Reef, and size wise it fits well into almost any map pool composition, it's a perfect M/L size map.
It's comments like this that make me happy to be part of this community. I've got a lot of flack from my...not so well received maps, but a simple comment like yours is all it takes to make those negative comments fade away. I hope to keep creating new content for everybody to enjoy. Thank you! =)
Sidian, i beg you. Consider reworking lighting on your map. It's hurting people!
EPT
