Below are the three NEW maps being added to the Ladder for 2017 Season 3. In addition to these,Frost LECATALLENA will join the map pool alongisde the current maps Ascension to Aiur, Odyssey and Abyssal Reef.
New 1v1 Maps
Acolyte LE Acolyte is a macro map that was a finalist in the Team Liquid Map Contest. Several bases are available for players to expand quickly. Clear rocks to open new attack paths into your opponent’s base. + Show Spoiler +
Interloper LE Interloper is a rush type map that was submitted for the Team Liquid Map Contest. Players can take one of five paths to reach their opponent, or destroy the rocks to allow free movement between any of them. + Show Spoiler +
Mech Depot LE Mech Depot is a larger sized map and it features open areas and long pathways. Move down the middle or utilize the side paths to engage your enemy. + Show Spoiler +
Hope you have been enjoying DreamHack Valencia! We had a quick update to share regarding maps. We've been reading the feedback regarding next season’s map pool and we have heard your concerns around the map pick Frost LE. We thought Frost LE would be a good addition because the map pool was lacking a four player map and we wanted more diversity to allow for a greater variety of strategies to be used next season. However, after reading over all the feedback, we agree that the map may have seen too much play recently and have decided to make a change to our plans for next season’s map pool. We will be switching out Frost LE and replacing it with Catallena LE. Catallena is a solid three player map and we think it would be a good addition for next season’s map pool.
With that substitution, next season’s map pool would look like this:
I find it hilarious that someone at Blizzard sat down and though real hard about it and said "you know what, we just haven't had enough games on Frost yet, we should bring it back"
On July 12 2017 06:37 Musicus wrote: Wait, so what's map 7?
Excellent question, I have no idea. I think they mistakenly left one out.
Hopefully map 7 is Abyssal Reef or something new (Abyssal because it's a good map and sees play in both Korean leagues). Interloper is classified as a rush map, but honestly it looks like you can play a decent standard game on it. You know, provided reapers don't end the game.
I'm not particularly thrilled about Acolyte but I guess we get an in-base natural every season now. Thanks Dusk Towers.
Overall this is a really positive move. They kept the only good maps from last season (Ascension and Odyssey), added Frost which is perfectly acceptable and swapped out Proxima, Defender's and Blood Boil which were terrible, for three new maps that probably won't be as bad. This is definitely a step in the right direction.
Honestly I think all of the latest maps that are new have been pretty successful. I'm just so over Overgrowth and even Frost I'm not gonna enjoy as much as I did prior. It's a shame that a good map will be remembered for worse, just because we played/watched it to death.
On July 12 2017 06:51 -NegativeZero- wrote: well this is a surprise, looks like i have another ladder map lol
and yes, it is intentionally "new terraform"
So basically submitting it as a rush map was a way to get around the fact that TLMC had no category for medium sized maps right?
not really... at only 126x134 it's kind of deceptively small, and the nat-nat distance is pretty short. but the goal was definitely to give people the option to play a more standard game if they want to, not just "rush only" like dasan station for example.
Abyssal is a contender for greatest map of all time and deserves at least one more season so thank goodness it stays. If I were to decide I'd leave it in forever until 7 better alternatives pop up. It takes some serious effort to find a total of 7 maps that are superior to Abyssal Reef, and size wise it fits well into almost any map pool composition, it's a perfect M/L size map.
About Frost gotta say it's a horrible map for competition. Spawn imbalances is bad, almost everyone in WCS S1 complained about Cactus/Honorgrounds spawns... Blizzard listened and changed it for S2, so it makes no sense that the ghost comes back. I sure hope it's not because WCS players have been saying 'It's so annoying that KR leagues and WCS/ladder maps are so different' because that'd be sad, very few actually want to play Frost if they could choose a better alternative.
If Frost Horizontal/Vertical is what you want, there's small/medium size 2p maps for that, like Newkirk. Cross positions there already are superior alternatives in the pool. Remove Frost, maybe bring back Newkirk or a similar one
On July 12 2017 07:08 Liquid`Snute wrote: I sure hope it's not because WCS players have been saying 'It's so annoying that KR leagues and WCS/ladder maps are so different' because that'd be sad, very few actually want to play Frost if they could choose a better alternative.
I'm sure that's one of the main reasons. Or maybe the Korean side insisted on it since they wanted another familiar map for GSL vs The World, IEM and maybe Blizzcon (if the pool lasts until then). And then Blizzard went with a 4-player map because everyone loves those ().
On July 12 2017 07:24 IronManSC wrote: I'm happy Mech Depot got into ladder. I hope it plays the way I intended it to when designing it.
i wanted to see Dragon Shire too
I'm going to submit Dragonshire to the next TLMC, as well as a couple other maps i've been working on (like Artana, and one that i'm currently finishing up on). It's not dead in the water just yet. At least Mech Depot made it through.
On July 12 2017 07:24 IronManSC wrote: I'm happy Mech Depot got into ladder. I hope it plays the way I intended it to when designing it.
Well, how did you intend it to play?
I'm going to generalize because that's the best way to answer this question without catering to any specific play style or race. Basically if you're playing against Zerg, you will definitely want to utilize the high grounds. What's nice about it is there's enough paths (good map flow IMO) that Zerg will not be overwhelmed by any sort of deathball or mech play, however protoss and terran cannot necessarily abuse it to win the game (if the high ground was more central, or the primary attack path, that would be a different story).
It's not the greatest answer, but I just hope players don't become dull to it and just do 2-3 base all-ins through the middle, y'know?
Man, strategy discussions on mech depot is going to be a blast. "I can't mech on mech."
On July 12 2017 08:11 Nerchio wrote: Abyssal stays for yet another season, I think i am going to die
On July 12 2017 07:08 Liquid`Snute wrote: Abyssal is a contender for greatest map of all time and deserves at least one more season so thank goodness it stays. If I were to decide I'd leave it in forever until 7 better alternatives pop up. It takes some serious effort to find a total of 7 maps that are superior to Abyssal Reef, and size wise it fits well into almost any map pool composition, it's a perfect M/L size map.
On July 12 2017 07:08 Liquid`Snute wrote: I sure hope it's not because WCS players have been saying 'It's so annoying that KR leagues and WCS/ladder maps are so different' because that'd be sad, very few actually want to play Frost if they could choose a better alternative.
I'm sure that's one of the main reasons. Or maybe the Korean side insisted on it since they wanted another familiar map for GSL vs The World, IEM and maybe Blizzcon (if the pool lasts until then). And then Blizzard went with a 4-player map because everyone loves those ().
I don't think the ladder maps aren't familiar to the koreans considering they all ladder a lot currently.
I always want to have one 4 players map in the map pool because I think it involves a bit of luck on where your opponent is spawned. It is more fun that way. Also, I love Frost and I think it is the best 4 players map.
Acolyte was pretty bad for the few games we saw it during the map test tournament with the pocket base being really easy to harass for terran (I wonder if they moved the gas out of range), and being really turtly overall. And Frost...
nooo stop it with Frost... Please just put deadwing in!!! also take out Abbyssal its been in there forever =_____= please blizzard either a new map or something like Terraform/Coda but not Abbysal and Frost thats just boring now.. But apart from that these maps do look interesting.. Im glad Proxima, Sequencer, Bloodboil and Defenders is finally gone. I really would like to see that Deadwing a map that more than deserves to be on, and Coda/Terraform two other beautiful maps make it over Abbyssal and Frost
Well they're reconsidering Frost at least: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/20757507160. They'll likely pick an old map (since they probably don't have time to process a new one), so I hope they pick one of the few that are actually suitable for LotV.
On July 12 2017 12:41 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Well they're reconsidering Frost at least: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/20757507160. They'll likely pick an old map (since they probably don't have time to process a new one), so I hope they pick one of the few that are actually suitable for LotV.
On July 12 2017 12:41 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Well they're reconsidering Frost at least: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/20757507160. They'll likely pick an old map (since they probably don't have time to process a new one), so I hope they pick one of the few that are actually suitable for LotV.
Ohana
Instead of dragging the name of maps that used to be good through the mud, maybe they should try to redeem old maps that were bad in HotS or WoL, but might be better in LotV.
Since Protoss has pylon overcharge now, they can obviously deal with the original Daedalus Point's ramp now, right?
On July 12 2017 12:15 GTR wrote: Just curious - who is part of the internal Blizzard mapping team right now?
They don't have a "mapping team." They have a design team that does a number of things, one of them being mapmaking. Who exactly? Nobody that we know of, or can't know about.
On July 12 2017 12:15 GTR wrote: Just curious - who is part of the internal Blizzard mapping team right now?
They don't have a "mapping team." They have a design team that does a number of things, one of them being mapmaking. Who exactly? Nobody that we know of, or can't know about.
There's no real benefit for a designer to put themselves out there and in the line of fire after all.
On July 12 2017 12:15 GTR wrote: Just curious - who is part of the internal Blizzard mapping team right now?
They don't have a "mapping team." They have a design team that does a number of things, one of them being mapmaking. Who exactly? Nobody that we know of, or can't know about.
There's no real benefit for a designer to put themselves out there and in the line of fire after all.
No, there's no real purpose for them to. They hunt down community maps these days and they will simply change some of the features if they feel they need to. For example, Mech Depot had one of its repair stations removed to keep the area by the watch tower more open.
On July 12 2017 13:25 Shellshock wrote: the spawns have always been a problem but I think Frost just played much better in HotS than lotv
Basically every HotS/WoL map that's been played in LotV has been understandably worse due to the fact that they weren't designed with liberators and LotV economy in mind. Maybe Echo is about as good. But all the others range from slightly worse like King Sejong to much much worse like Bel'shir Vestige.
The later HotS maps are obviously more LotV appropriate because we started moving towards closer third bases and thus fourths, etc. The unwritten rules were figured out spare some rarities (like Secret Spring..)
I would rather we completely stop this "bring back old maps" thing.
OVERGROWTH BLIZZARD. OVERGROWTH FFS. Odyssey and ascension to Aiur are basically the same map, replace one with OVERGROWTH. p.s. wake me up, am i dreaming? After all these years of imbecile mappools we have a decent one? at last? was it worth?
p.s.s.: protoss in unplayable in both MUs, blizzard. Hello!
interloper 2/5 all the bases are at really awkward angles but some potential is to be had
mech depot 1/5 impossible to defend third as protoss, terran can easily abuse libs and tanks behind nat/3rd and elevator units into main while having tanks on low ground. liberator pushes into 3rd will be cancer
Blizzard is still doing whatever, so sad that they can't make the first of many "all new maps" pool.
This is what this game is partly about, finding the maps that make for both fun play and replay for casuals and awesome skill showcasing in tournaments. The only way to do that is to "process" (add to map pool) dozens of maps, not 1 or 2 every now and then! Yes this would make for weird happenstances for 2 or 3 seasons but then after we would have more than half a dozen great maps for sc2, we would have a map pool. As is, they have not done this effort and they are just ever pushing back the possibility of having a great map pool, all this because they failed to recognize that their "tournaments will introduce new maps" strategy failed miserably (due to the minuscule size of the balls of tournament organizers (notably tl)). Bad mojo.
On July 12 2017 14:44 Avexyli wrote: I would rather we completely stop this "bring back old maps" thing.
So much this. New maps keep the game fresh, old maps don't.
Old proven and balanced maps keep the game stabilized. That keeps meta developing. That keeps the game fresh. period.
New maps (made only to fit blizzards mapmaking "standards" which originated from the fact they are completely lost and clueless on how to increase the game's popularity) bring nothing but frustration to dedicated players, distract them, making meta unstable and hard to follow thus leading to premature balance tweaks that lead to more frustration etc.
On July 12 2017 14:44 Avexyli wrote: I would rather we completely stop this "bring back old maps" thing.
So much this. New maps keep the game fresh, old maps don't.
Old proven and balanced maps keep the game stabilized. That keeps meta developing. That keeps the game fresh. period.
New maps (made only to fit blizzards mapmaking "standards" which originated from the fact they are completely lost and clueless on how to increase the game's popularity) bring nothing but frustration to dedicated players, distract them, making meta unstable and hard to follow thus leading to premature balance tweaks that lead to more frustration etc.
So no, we won't stop asking for old maps.
you mean old proven and balanced maps for HotS/WoL because almost all of them are pretty mediocre/subpar in LotV
and no, old maps don't keep things fresh, they make it stagnant, meta is already developed.
On July 12 2017 14:44 Avexyli wrote: I would rather we completely stop this "bring back old maps" thing.
So much this. New maps keep the game fresh, old maps don't.
Old proven and balanced maps keep the game stabilized. That keeps meta developing. That keeps the game fresh. period.
New maps (made only to fit blizzards mapmaking "standards" which originated from the fact they are completely lost and clueless on how to increase the game's popularity) bring nothing but frustration to dedicated players, distract them, making meta unstable and hard to follow thus leading to premature balance tweaks that lead to more frustration etc.
So no, we won't stop asking for old maps.
you mean old proven and balanced maps for HotS/WoL because almost all of them are pretty mediocre/subpar in LotV
Yeah, that's why all korean tournaments are played on them, because they are mediocre and supbar in LotV, while defenders landing, blood boil and sequencer are so innovative and fresh. Why don't we give them another try?
On July 12 2017 18:16 killerm12 wrote: and no, old maps don't keep things fresh, they make it stagnant, meta is already developed.
Sure thring. Fighting spirit and blue storm always kept BW meta stagnant and it never got a chance to develop. Oh wait. There is still balance rant in the commnutity after 20 years of "stagnant" meta.
edit: I'm sorry to dissapoint you but SC2 Meta is still in prenatal state.
On July 12 2017 14:44 Avexyli wrote: I would rather we completely stop this "bring back old maps" thing.
So much this. New maps keep the game fresh, old maps don't.
Old proven and balanced maps keep the game stabilized. That keeps meta developing. That keeps the game fresh. period.
New maps (made only to fit blizzards mapmaking "standards" which originated from the fact they are completely lost and clueless on how to increase the game's popularity) bring nothing but frustration to dedicated players, distract them, making meta unstable and hard to follow thus leading to premature balance tweaks that lead to more frustration etc.
So no, we won't stop asking for old maps.
you mean old proven and balanced maps for HotS/WoL because almost all of them are pretty mediocre/subpar in LotV
Yeah, that's why all korean tournaments are played on them, because they are mediocre and supbar in LotV
They play on them because the players are familiar with them. Regardless of that, the maps are at best mediocre for LotV. Terrain issues (liberators), layout problems...
On July 12 2017 14:44 Avexyli wrote: I would rather we completely stop this "bring back old maps" thing.
So much this. New maps keep the game fresh, old maps don't.
Old proven and balanced maps keep the game stabilized. That keeps meta developing. That keeps the game fresh. period.
New maps (made only to fit blizzards mapmaking "standards" which originated from the fact they are completely lost and clueless on how to increase the game's popularity) bring nothing but frustration to dedicated players, distract them, making meta unstable and hard to follow thus leading to premature balance tweaks that lead to more frustration etc.
So no, we won't stop asking for old maps.
you mean old proven and balanced maps for HotS/WoL because almost all of them are pretty mediocre/subpar in LotV
Yeah, that's why all korean tournaments are played on them, because they are mediocre and supbar in LotV
They play on them because the players are familiar with them. Regardless of that, the maps are at best mediocre for LotV. Terrain issues (liberators), layout problems...
I don't really want to sound offensive but... You don't really know what's "wrong" with old maps, do you? Because this kind of argumenation just reveals your stereotypical thinking (new=good, old=bad). Everything else is just an attempt to justify it. Liberator issues (?), layout (?).. What do you mean by that? There are absolutely NO defferences in layout in "hots" and "lotv" maps. It is all in your head. You "want" them to be different because you can't accept the fact blizzard hyped the shit of LoTV and HoTS and sold you the same, 6 years old game TWICE after the initial release. Just rewatch recent GSL/SSL matches on DB/Newkirk/OG/WW/KSS and accept it already. Or name any new strat/meta twist (whithin a 3 years period) that was a direct product of a new map(pool). If they were so fresh...
On July 12 2017 19:44 FO-nTTaX wrote: Well, at least i am sick of seeing the same maps year after year. I like some change
On July 12 2017 14:44 Avexyli wrote: I would rather we completely stop this "bring back old maps" thing.
So much this. New maps keep the game fresh, old maps don't.
Old proven and balanced maps keep the game stabilized. That keeps meta developing. That keeps the game fresh. period.
New maps (made only to fit blizzards mapmaking "standards" which originated from the fact they are completely lost and clueless on how to increase the game's popularity) bring nothing but frustration to dedicated players, distract them, making meta unstable and hard to follow thus leading to premature balance tweaks that lead to more frustration etc.
So no, we won't stop asking for old maps.
you mean old proven and balanced maps for HotS/WoL because almost all of them are pretty mediocre/subpar in LotV
Yeah, that's why all korean tournaments are played on them, because they are mediocre and supbar in LotV
They play on them because the players are familiar with them. Regardless of that, the maps are at best mediocre for LotV. Terrain issues (liberators), layout problems...
I don't really want to sound offensive but...
Yeah I don't either, but if you don't even understand what issues liberators cause with maps this isn't going to go anywhere.
The other part you don't understand that it's not about HotS maps vs LotV maps in particular. Some of the maps that were tried out weren't bad (though imo still at best mediocre). I think Coda could be a very good map for LotV. But specific maps like Bel'Shir Vestige, Cactus Valley or Overgrowth didn't work out very well in LotV whenever they were tried in professional play.
Overgrowth was used in Proleague and is used in SSL, but quite frankly, no LotV game on Overgrowth is memorable for its quality. Frost has worked out decently and I'd personally be fine with playing it, but as you can see from Snute's comments, pros aren't enthused because of the massive differences between spawns.
edit : not too happy about Frost again though, I agree they should stop bringing back old maps just because they were solid in HotS. Or try to use maps that weren't used for too long in HotS and could be more well suited for LotV, Coda, Terraform and Foxtrot Labs come to mind and could be pretty interesting.
On July 12 2017 19:52 insitelol wrote: name any new strat/meta twist (whithin a 3 years period) that was a direct product of a new map(pool). If they were so fresh...
tank drop vs Z on Deadwing, tank push vs Z on KSS, spine/SH strat on Deadwing and Vaani, macro 2rax on MGR, 2 base tempest into blink all-in vs Zerg on Dash and Terminal from the top of my head and then all the gold base shenanigans on Overgrowth/Habitation/Odyssey and backdoor rocks cheeses on Expedition Lost/Bridgehead/Dasan
On July 12 2017 14:44 Avexyli wrote: I would rather we completely stop this "bring back old maps" thing.
So much this. New maps keep the game fresh, old maps don't.
Old proven and balanced maps keep the game stabilized. That keeps meta developing. That keeps the game fresh. period.
New maps (made only to fit blizzards mapmaking "standards" which originated from the fact they are completely lost and clueless on how to increase the game's popularity) bring nothing but frustration to dedicated players, distract them, making meta unstable and hard to follow thus leading to premature balance tweaks that lead to more frustration etc.
So no, we won't stop asking for old maps.
you mean old proven and balanced maps for HotS/WoL because almost all of them are pretty mediocre/subpar in LotV
Yeah, that's why all korean tournaments are played on them, because they are mediocre and supbar in LotV
They play on them because the players are familiar with them. Regardless of that, the maps are at best mediocre for LotV. Terrain issues (liberators), layout problems...
I don't really want to sound offensive but...
Yeah I don't either, but if you don't even understand what issues liberators cause with maps this isn't going to go anywhere.
So can you actually name these issues? And how they specifically impact the gameplay on old maps, stagnating meta or somehow limiting players or who knows promoting certain kind of strategies or w/e.
On July 12 2017 20:15 Elentos wrote: The other part you don't understand that it's not about HotS maps vs LotV maps in particular. Some of the maps that were tried out weren't bad (though imo still at best mediocre). I think Coda could be a very good map for LotV. But specific maps like Bel'Shir Vestige, Cactus Valley or Overgrowth didn't work out very well in LotV whenever they were tried in professional play.
Overgrowth was used in Proleague and is used in SSL, but quite frankly, no LotV game on Overgrowth is memorable for its quality. Frost has worked out decently and I'd personally be fine with playing it, but as you can see from Snute's comments, pros aren't enthused because of the massive differences between spawns.
Of course i can't understand something that doesn't exist. Especially if your argumentation is basically about "this being bad and that being good, something working out and something not working out" etc. And btw i wasnt talking about games being memorable at all.
On July 12 2017 19:52 insitelol wrote: name any new strat/meta twist (whithin a 3 years period) that was a direct product of a new map(pool). If they were so fresh...
tank drop vs Z on Deadwing, tank push vs Z on KSS, spine/SH strat on Deadwing and Vaani, macro 2rax on MGR, 2 base tempest into blink all-in vs Zerg on Dash and Terminal from the top of my head and then all the gold base shenanigans on Overgrowth/Habitation/Odyssey and backdoor rocks cheeses on Expedition Lost/Bridgehead/Dasan
This is the list of specific map abuses. In this case strat is gone along with map being thrown out of mappool. What i was talking about is an example of how exactly a certain map influenced meta developement (unit compositions/expansion time etc being used by players regardless of a certain map). This or that abuse or cheese being available on some maps has nothing to do with this.
On July 12 2017 20:54 Ej_ wrote: btw, it's PPS (post post scriptum), not PSS
:rollingeyes:
On July 12 2017 21:34 Meavis wrote: guys guys, how about we just lock in 7 maps forever so we never have to bother with replacing old maps at all.
New pool is a step in the right direction. The maps they got rid of are horrible. Hopefully the new ones are good.
I'm glad Abyssal Reef is staying in, I think it's the best LoTV original map. Hopefully it stays until blizzcon, becuase it tends to deliver the best pro level games
On July 12 2017 21:34 Meavis wrote: guys guys, how about we just lock in 7 maps forever so we never have to bother with replacing old maps at all.
Exactly.
lmao i can't believe you actually thought he was serious
lmao i can't believe you actually thought i thought he was serious. He wasn't. I was.
it was blatant satire, people that support this argument are far from aware from the consequences this situation would bring. first there's the false assumption that this supposed map pool is ideal and thus never has to change, this will never happen due to the conflicting opinions on what an ideal map pool is. then there is the completely forgotten factor of time, freezing any recent map pool may seem like a good ideal, but suppose a decision like this was made some time ago, I'm sure you wouldn't mind playing on lerilak forever right? ruins of seras maybe? we could go even further back to maps like heavy rain.
speaking of heavy rain, that brings up a very good reason to change maps, balance and meta, heavy rain was one of a couple of maps where winrates massively exploded into protoss favor during the blink era of HotS.
but let's assume a perfect world where the meta never changes, or use the argument that maps will be rotated when these type of events occur.
there are perfect examples of what happens when neither meta or maps ever change, all you have to do is look towards the end of WoL where meta stagnated almost completely and a particular set of maps persisted through any pool changes.
people got sick of playing the same maps over and over, and even more sick of the turtle push meta these maps shaped,
during this very same period there was a different meta played elsewhere, where? in the GSL where maps adapted, where maps such as whirlwind tore broodlord infestor apart.
On July 12 2017 07:08 Liquid`Snute wrote: Abyssal is a contender for greatest map of all time and deserves at least one more season so thank goodness it stays. If I were to decide I'd leave it in forever until 7 better alternatives pop up. It takes some serious effort to find a total of 7 maps that are superior to Abyssal Reef, and size wise it fits well into almost any map pool composition, it's a perfect M/L size map.
It's comments like this that make me happy to be part of this community. I've got a lot of flack from my...not so well received maps, but a simple comment like yours is all it takes to make those negative comments fade away. I hope to keep creating new content for everybody to enjoy. Thank you! =)
On July 12 2017 07:08 Liquid`Snute wrote: Abyssal is a contender for greatest map of all time and deserves at least one more season so thank goodness it stays. If I were to decide I'd leave it in forever until 7 better alternatives pop up. It takes some serious effort to find a total of 7 maps that are superior to Abyssal Reef, and size wise it fits well into almost any map pool composition, it's a perfect M/L size map.
It's comments like this that make me happy to be part of this community. I've got a lot of flack from my...not so well received maps, but a simple comment like yours is all it takes to make those negative comments fade away. I hope to keep creating new content for everybody to enjoy. Thank you! =)
sidian your maps are literally the worst thing to ever happen to sc2, this dude's definitely some bronze scrub who doesn't know what he's talking about
I really don't mind frost, I've had so many great games on that map in lotv too.. great memories with my friends.
I love the idea that 4 player maps should be in the map pool. It's nice to have a map where cheese isn't viable or good. Makes series way more interesting.
If they remove frost they better add a 4p map... maybe dusk towers lol.
On July 13 2017 12:48 youngjiddle wrote: I really don't mind frost, I've had so many great games on that map in lotv too.. great memories with my friends.
I love the idea that 4 player maps should be in the map pool. It's nice to have a map where cheese isn't viable or good. Makes series way more interesting.
If they remove frost they better add a 4p map... maybe dusk towers lol.
Cheese is viable on Frost though (I guess you could argue that 3-rax reaper builds aren't cheese since they aren't easy to defeat when scouted, but the point remains).
On July 12 2017 07:08 Liquid`Snute wrote: Abyssal is a contender for greatest map of all time and deserves at least one more season so thank goodness it stays. If I were to decide I'd leave it in forever until 7 better alternatives pop up. It takes some serious effort to find a total of 7 maps that are superior to Abyssal Reef, and size wise it fits well into almost any map pool composition, it's a perfect M/L size map.
It's comments like this that make me happy to be part of this community. I've got a lot of flack from my...not so well received maps, but a simple comment like yours is all it takes to make those negative comments fade away. I hope to keep creating new content for everybody to enjoy. Thank you! =)
sidian your maps are literally the worst thing to ever happen to sc2, this dude's definitely some bronze scrub who doesn't know what he's talking about
On July 12 2017 14:44 Avexyli wrote: I would rather we completely stop this "bring back old maps" thing.
So much this. New maps keep the game fresh, old maps don't.
Old proven and balanced maps keep the game stabilized. That keeps meta developing. That keeps the game fresh. period.
New maps (made only to fit blizzards mapmaking "standards" which originated from the fact they are completely lost and clueless on how to increase the game's popularity) bring nothing but frustration to dedicated players, distract them, making meta unstable and hard to follow thus leading to premature balance tweaks that lead to more frustration etc.
So no, we won't stop asking for old maps.
you mean old proven and balanced maps for HotS/WoL because almost all of them are pretty mediocre/subpar in LotV
Yeah, that's why all korean tournaments are played on them, because they are mediocre and supbar in LotV, while defenders landing, blood boil and sequencer are so innovative and fresh. Why don't we give them another try?
On July 12 2017 18:16 killerm12 wrote: and no, old maps don't keep things fresh, they make it stagnant, meta is already developed.
Sure thring. Fighting spirit and blue storm always kept BW meta stagnant and it never got a chance to develop. Oh wait. There is still balance rant in the commnutity after 20 years of "stagnant" meta.
edit: I'm sorry to dissapoint you but SC2 Meta is still in prenatal state.
please never bring up brood war maps and the affect on balance in comparison with starcraft 2.
I can garauntee you there is no equivalency because the games are drastically different, the features of maps wildly more important than they are in starcraft 2.
On July 12 2017 07:08 Liquid`Snute wrote: Abyssal is a contender for greatest map of all time and deserves at least one more season so thank goodness it stays. If I were to decide I'd leave it in forever until 7 better alternatives pop up. It takes some serious effort to find a total of 7 maps that are superior to Abyssal Reef, and size wise it fits well into almost any map pool composition, it's a perfect M/L size map.
It's comments like this that make me happy to be part of this community. I've got a lot of flack from my...not so well received maps, but a simple comment like yours is all it takes to make those negative comments fade away. I hope to keep creating new content for everybody to enjoy. Thank you! =)
Sidian, i beg you. Consider reworking lighting on your map. It's hurting people!
On July 12 2017 07:08 Liquid`Snute wrote: Abyssal is a contender for greatest map of all time and deserves at least one more season so thank goodness it stays. If I were to decide I'd leave it in forever until 7 better alternatives pop up. It takes some serious effort to find a total of 7 maps that are superior to Abyssal Reef, and size wise it fits well into almost any map pool composition, it's a perfect M/L size map.
It's comments like this that make me happy to be part of this community. I've got a lot of flack from my...not so well received maps, but a simple comment like yours is all it takes to make those negative comments fade away. I hope to keep creating new content for everybody to enjoy. Thank you! =)
Sidian, i beg you. Consider reworking lighting on your map. It's hurting people!
Stop playing with your Hybrid settings.
Honestly though, I believe that's really the only time I have people complain about it. That or maybe there is a specific lighting setting or something that causes it to be too bright with the sand.
Frost hahahah, lets be honest, I DONT CARE ANY MORE FOR THIS GAME. This is thinking from the past pooping up here.
To take out Sequencer is one of the biggest mistakes they could have done and replacing it with frost cause this map was ultra good for the current meta to practice with.
Instead of taken out abysaal wihch is since 3 seasons now i think they take out Sequencer which was one of the most favoured maps of the players. I have no respect for this decision left.
Interloper can replace Sequencer for no reasons same the other map the just replaced like defenders landing which was a good decision they could have done like this season i dont get it still why defenders landing was added its was a waste to the mappool and took other maps the chance to get used. Keep on to ur 5min games blizzard. GJ
Blizzard shows again that defenders landing was just like a running gag and get taken out immeditaly, instead of this we get acolyte LOL which should been in the mappool since the start of this season but nope they wanted defenders landing, was worth it it seems so.
Im really unhappy with this pool and i cant hide that my trust into blizzard is rekt complelty. The discussion of colossus show me they have learned aboslutly nothing.
It was one of my last commands cause it think this game is no longer worth to give it any attention. Best of luck to the community this all will get better which i dont think so. RIP Sc2
Jesus. That Catallena is just straight-up horrible. I never enjoyed any matches on that map since well forever. We have 4 players maps in the contest, just use one of those instead. Why bring back the old map?
Seriously Frost was boring as hell but the map is rather ok in lotv. Catallena, on the other hand, is not suited for low eco, is very reaper friendly and should have some pretty broken lib spots. Very nice choice.
On July 15 2017 07:16 FO-nTTaX wrote: Ugh so instead of one old map we bring another old map back. I'm disappointed.
It was bound to be an old map. Any new map would have to be evaluated and tinkered with by Blizzard, and they probably don't have the time.
On July 15 2017 06:27 [PkF] Wire wrote: Seriously Frost was boring as hell but the map is rather ok in lotv. Catallena, on the other hand, is not suited for low eco, is very reaper friendly and should have some pretty broken lib spots. Very nice choice.
Liberators spots? Maybe with lib range, but every map has unreachable spots with lib range. And while reapers might be problematic I'm not sure it's necessarily a better reaper map than Frost, since it does have a ramp at the front of natural.
Well, every decision from Blizzard will be divisive. Still, instead of choosing a random and potentially problematic (untested in LOTV) map like Catallena, they should stick with Frost. They can't win the fan war anyway. May as well choose a better (more balanced) map.
On July 15 2017 10:16 Vutalisk wrote: Well, every decision from Blizzard will be divisive. Still, instead of choosing a random and potentially problematic (untested in LOTV) map like Catallena, they should stick with Frost. They can't win the fan war anyway. May as well choose a better (more balanced) map.
Frost isn't a good map in LotV on top of being played to death. It's doubtful that Catallena will be good, so it's really a matter you want guaranteed mediocrity or a map that will end up somewhere between okay and awful.
I for one like that blizzard listened. Im glad you guys are finally opting to do 3 player map, I really am I think thats fun. Im also happy that you are replacing Frost not that its bad but its been used. However I personally think that Catallena may be a little bit imbalanced vs T. I think a better map to use would be Merry go round. Furthermore I think Mech Depot should be modified. The space between the natural base and the ramp are a little too tight.. I imagine it can really affect certain styles or specific types of walls. Apart from that really good job blizzard Thank you for listening to the community ^^
I would rather a new map, but Catallena is at least a better choice than Frost. Time to watch more BasetradeTV Thinking about it I think Catallena is actually a good testing ground for Reaper changes and to watch for if Liberator changes is needed, or the map needs changes instead. I just hope they also want to try and fix doom drops, TvT was an absolute mess in HotS on this map.
On July 15 2017 14:00 Ryu3600 wrote: I for one like that blizzard listened. Im glad you guys are finally opting to do 3 player map, I really am I think thats fun. Im also happy that you are replacing Frost not that its bad but its been used. However I personally think that Catallena may be a little bit imbalanced vs T. I think a better map to use would be Merry go round. Furthermore I think Mech Depot should be modified. The space between the natural base and the ramp are a little too tight.. I imagine it can really affect certain styles or specific types of walls. Apart from that really good job blizzard Thank you for listening to the community ^^
Blizzard should only allow tournament/ladder maps with natural daylight/night. My eyes hurt from all other "daylight" colors like that one seawater map (abyssal reef) and the other (formerly gsl?! CalDeum) yellow daylight map and violet (acolyte/cloud knigdom). Are such "daylight" colors really needed?
Watching ByuN play on Odyssey right now, it seems Odyssey got updated. The water around the map is now a deeper blue and looks more like water compared to before. Nice to see this visual change.
Catallena is one of the worst choices ever, spawning left as zerg vs terran bottom is ridicilously hard compared to zerg left vs terran right. Terran can be in a perfect defensive spot outside their 1-2-3 and do a full doomdrop with turbovacs into your main with a full army in like ... 7-8 seconds? Just a ridicilously brutal defensive ground rush distance even for zerglings, leaving zerg with no choice but to lock down brutal amounts of idle army in the main base. Attacking isn't really a thing when you're locked down that hard.
All the while the entire top right side of the map is dead space for terran to send double vac drops, with safe ledge in the 1'o clock main to unload vs mutas. Perfect shutdown on the top 4th, with even crazier ground rush distance to get lings up there. This isn't even stuff you can adapt to, even if you take precautions zerg just ends up in a horrible deficit because of 40%+ of your army supply being locked up in precautions. Taking the center(triangle) base as Zerg and playing a slower compact style also doesn't work well because RRI gets sieged by tanks from Terran's 3rd and your main is always open to doomdrops. Baseracing with 100% of one's army would be a choice but no, terran's 1-2-3 is ridicilously solid with plenty of chokes and ramps so it's not exactly attractive.
But the most bothersome is the difference in spawns from (Z left T bottom) to (Z left T right)... Dunno why maps with obvious spawn imbalances like this keep sneaking into the official wcs tournament pool. I know vetos are a thing but grand finals exist and having a terrible map 7 sucks. It also ruins fun/freedom in vetoing cuz you have to veto the same map every single time and end up playing the same 5-6 maps instead of stylistic choices vs different players. Catallena ZvT in left vs bottom is garbage for Zerg even if you play hydra, lbm, roach, doesn't matter.
Something to think about if the next WCS finals has a ZvT on Catallena, the outcome will shift drastically over a spawn coin flip. Zerg left vs terran top right is far more forgiving
On July 26 2017 02:53 geokilla wrote: Watching ByuN play on Odyssey right now, it seems Odyssey got updated. The water around the map is now a deeper blue and looks more like water compared to before. Nice to see this visual change.
Nope, no changes. Probably just different settings.
I must admit I haven't played much ladder this year, so I basically just played my first ZvT on Odyssey - and I can't understand how there is not a bigger uproar about the "jump up pod" between main a 3rd. It fits a fucking tank! My oponent just went a fast tank drop and destroyed my 3rd with very little effort. This is bullshit level Lost Temple.
On October 08 2017 21:47 opisska wrote: I must admit I haven't played much ladder this year, so I basically just played my first ZvT on Odyssey - and I can't understand how there is not a bigger uproar about the "jump up pod" between main a 3rd. It fits a fucking tank! My oponent just went a fast tank drop and destroyed my 3rd with very little effort. This is bullshit level Lost Temple.
No one's complaining because it isn't a problem...The other third is just better in ZvT. And even if you expand there you can usually push the drop away with queens.
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