EPTGSL Code S S2 Groups Announced - Page 5
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zealotstim
United States455 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
Wait...12/10/10 is the distribution for GSL. How are 12 Protoss too many? ...considering that the number 32 is not divisible per 3 and that a 2-1-1 distribution came from GSL Season 1 and qualifiers resulted in a 10-9-9 for a total of 12-10-10 how can there be too many Protoss players in the Ro32? As you said, 32 is not integer-divisible by three. An optimal distribution would be 11/11/10. 12 Protosses is one too many. In Season 1, there were 12 Terrans in the Ro32 (then came Lib + Mine nerfs). 12 Protosses is not a huge imbalance in and of itself, but just like 12 Terrans last season, it's another symptom of overall imbalance. Back then, Terran had won the most recent big tournaments (IEM, WESG), had a very favorable Aligulac winrate, and disproportionate representation in GSL. Then they got a well-deserved nerf. Now, Protoss has won the most recent big tournaments (GSL, Super), has a very favorable Aligulac winrate, and disproportionate representation in GSL. And now Blizzard has announced incoming Protoss nerfs. For all the shit people give the balance team, they're on top of it right now. | ||
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FrkFrJss
Canada1205 Posts
So i don't really buy the + 1 Protoss/Terran players in Season 2/1 being indicative of an overall balance problem. There's not enough of a difference between the optimal amount of players and the supposed imbalanced number players. And also, historically, the GSL racial distribution for Code S has not been all that consistent except for 2014 of imbalance. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
I mean, it is true that large imbalances can definitely affect the race representation in Code S (see 2014 for Terran), but in many cases, there were times when races were "overpowered" like in 2012 with Zerg or early 2013 for Terran where the Code S race representation was not in favour of the "overpowered race." In the final season of 2012 for GSL, where we had the ZvZ Code S finals, there were 9 Protoss, 9 Zerg, and 14 Terran. Yet, there was no serious imbalance between Terran and Protoss, so, and I realize that there are a number of factors in this, but for 2012, Zerg consistently had fewer players in Code S despite heavily overperforming during that time. Early 2016 had optimal race distribution (11/10/11) despite the Code A qualifiers being held pre-adept nerf (and with most players concluding that there was a problem with Protoss and adepts). So i don't really buy the + 1 Protoss/Terran players in Season 2/1 being indicative of an overall balance problem. There's not enough of a difference between the optimal amount of players and the supposed imbalanced number players. And also, historically, the GSL racial distribution for Code S has not been all that consistent except for 2014 of imbalance. Of course. As you said, there are a number of factors that play into the race distribution in GSL. On its own it means little if there is one player more or less of a particular race. It could certainly be a coincidence that 12 Protoss are in the Ro32, and it could certainly be a coincidence that Protoss players have won the most recent major tournaments, and it could also certainly be a coincidence that Aligulac happened to draw from a poorly representative sample set the last few weeks. Any one of those events happening could definitely just be random chance. My point is that, while all three events could be separate coincidences if they were viewed in a vacuum, the odds of them all happening at the same time without any influence from the current state of balance is pretty low. Just like the same odds were low a few months back with Terran, and indicated that Terran was in fact overpowered at the time. Given the fact that PvT is at 57%, and the fact that our most recent champions are Stats and herO, plus the explicit announcement by the balance team of Adepts being a problem, I'm pretty confident that 12 Protosses in GSL is not just a coincidence. A rising tide lifts all boats, after all. | ||
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FrkFrJss
Canada1205 Posts
However, for the GSL, Stats played a Terran not in the finals but on March 18, where he played against Ryung, whose TvP isn't his best matchup and where the winrates for Protoss were below 50%. On February 22, Stats played against Innovation, where the winrates for Protoss were 53%. It is debatable whether that 3% (which is really a 1.5% because 1.5% for Terran would be 1.5% against Protoss so net of 3%) helped Stats substantially against Innovation. So in that regard I can't really say that Protoss being overpowered resulted in them winning the GSL or even if helped that much. Now for the GSL super tournament, there was an overrepresentation of Terran in the tournament as a whole with the representation being 4/8/4, and the qualifiers took place on March 29th, right at the beginning of the period were Protoss had a 57% PvT. So in that regard, I would say that imbalance probably helped herO at least a little bit. Though of course, if the winner was a Zerg or Protoss, they would have to win against more Terran because more Terran qualified. And then for the winrate + balance report, that goes towards the overpowered nature of the Adept. Though, for winrates in Aligulac, the fact does remain that Protoss had an advantage for two weeks, whereas prior to the balance change that nerfed Terran, Protoss was underpowered for about 4 times as long. So what we have then, is a winrate for two weeks, the balance report, the GSL super tournament (with the caveat that Terran was overrepresented) and the very slight imbalance of racial distribution in the GSL. For this reason, I don't really think the GSL season 1 win is an example of Protoss having an advantage over the others that made them win. I guess my question is how much do anyone of these results support Protoss being overpowered as the reason why either Protoss won and/or they had one more player than would be balanced in Code S. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
That is true as well, multiple instances of a certain result (Protoss winning/higher than normal winrates) + the community report do support that Protoss, and specifically adepts, are too strong currently. However, for the GSL, Stats played a Terran not in the finals but on March 18, where he played against Ryung, whose TvP isn't his best matchup and where the winrates for Protoss were below 50%. On February 22, Stats played against Innovation, where the winrates for Protoss were 53%. It is debatable whether that 3% (which is really a 1.5% because 1.5% for Terran would be 1.5% against Protoss so net of 3%) helped Stats substantially against Innovation. So in that regard I can't really say that Protoss being overpowered resulted in them winning the GSL or even if helped that much. Now for the GSL super tournament, there was an overrepresentation of Terran in the tournament as a whole with the representation being 4/8/4, and the qualifiers took place on March 29th, right at the beginning of the period were Protoss had a 57% PvT. So in that regard, I would say that imbalance probably helped herO at least a little bit. Though of course, if the winner was a Zerg or Protoss, they would have to win against more Terran because more Terran qualified. And then for the winrate + balance report, that goes towards the overpowered nature of the Adept. Though, for winrates in Aligulac, the fact does remain that Protoss had an advantage for two weeks, whereas prior to the balance change that nerfed Terran, Protoss was underpowered for about 4 times as long. So what we have then, is a winrate for two weeks, the balance report, the GSL super tournament (with the caveat that Terran was overrepresented) and the very slight imbalance of racial distribution in the GSL. For this reason, I don't really think the GSL season 1 win is an example of Protoss having an advantage over the others that made them win. I guess my question is how much do anyone of these results support Protoss being overpowered as the reason why either Protoss won and/or they had one more player than would be balanced in Code S. I'm not quite sure what your point is regarding the contemporary state of balance. Winrates by their very nature will lag slightly behind the current meta because they are drawn from a time range, not an instantaneous point. The upward trend of Protoss winrates is what concerns me. My answer to your question is "not much." Any single one of the results means little by itself; if it were just one I wouldn't be concerned. What's concerning is the multiple results measuring multiple metrics that all point toward Protoss on the rise. | ||
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Shinespark
Chile843 Posts
If you just won the hardest SC2 tournament in the world, you should be brave and call out someone who's a potential threat to stop them early. Like Maru or something. Instead he goes for the low hanging fruit. What a bore. | ||
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Elentos
55551 Posts
On April 19 2017 01:24 Shinespark wrote: Stats choosing an easy opponent for the ro32 is such a cop out move. If you just won the hardest SC2 tournament in the world, you should be brave and call out someone who's a potential threat to stop them early. Like Maru or something. Instead he goes for the low hanging fruit. What a bore. He only had the choice between the tier 4 players. And realistically in the Ro32 it's more important to get to the Ro16 than to eliminate anyone in particular. | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
On April 19 2017 01:24 Shinespark wrote: Stats choosing an easy opponent for the ro32 is such a cop out move. If you just won the hardest SC2 tournament in the world, you should be brave and call out someone who's a potential threat to stop them early. Like Maru or something. Instead he goes for the low hanging fruit. What a bore. That's a good strat for the ro16 where choosing a hard opponent gives you an easy bracket to the finals but the round of 32 has no implication for ro16 groups, other than deciding which players are playing. It would be better to pick easy in the ro32 to get to ro16 to pick someone hard to get yourself a good bracket | ||
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
On April 19 2017 01:24 Shinespark wrote: Stats choosing an easy opponent for the ro32 is such a cop out move. If you just won the hardest SC2 tournament in the world, you should be brave and call out someone who's a potential threat to stop them early. Like Maru or something. Instead he goes for the low hanging fruit. What a bore. He could only choose one of 8 players. Maybe he thinks Scarlett is the hardest one? She's taken games off him before | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On April 19 2017 01:24 Shinespark wrote: Stats choosing an easy opponent for the ro32 is such a cop out move. If you just won the hardest SC2 tournament in the world, you should be brave and call out someone who's a potential threat to stop them early. Like Maru or something. Instead he goes for the low hanging fruit. What a bore. It was interesting last year when Zest lost to MC (when he just came out of retirement) in proleague. His response was to choose MC for GSL ro32 in order to redeem himself. Stats is more logical though | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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AshC
United States328 Posts
On April 19 2017 02:00 Fango wrote: Also does anyone think Scarlett doesn't proxy hatch at least twice? I don't think that will work against Stats. She does proxy hatch vs Protoss a lot. Did that to Patience and Classic earlier on this year. It becomes her thing. Stats plays with Scarlett quite a bit as well. He would scout for that strat. Also, what happens with TL Preview for GSL Code S Group A? It happens in like 5 hours but still not post. | ||
CynicalDeath
Italy3410 Posts
On April 19 2017 13:51 AshC wrote: Also, what happens with TL Preview for GSL Code S Group A? It happens in like 5 hours but still not post. ...if I got it right no more "dedicated" previews are planned: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/521335-korea-weekly-vsl-finals-gsl-ssl-and-more#13 | ||
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Vutalisk
United States680 Posts
On April 19 2017 15:57 CynicalDeath wrote: ...if I got it right no more "dedicated" previews are planned: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/521335-korea-weekly-vsl-finals-gsl-ssl-and-more#13 Not sure if that is a good idea. I like the preview post. It is a hyped-up before the broadcast. Also, for voting and prediction (we can always trash-talk how bad TL prediction is  ). On top of that, it is kind of a reminder for those who lost track of time. | ||
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mikedebo
Canada4341 Posts
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-StrifeX-
United States529 Posts
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Hunta15
United States81 Posts
On April 22 2017 06:42 -StrifeX- wrote: Why is herO considered 5th if his points are total up to 3rd place when combined? The four players above him were the top 4 in last seasons GSL. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
scarlett may have a shot, though | ||
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