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On January 18 2017 04:25 Vutalisk wrote:
This is just ridiculous. Someone gotta do something about this. Report this to Blizzard or DH perhaps? Let this conniving weasel, Sebou, getting away with murder is unacceptable. This kind of behavior goes unpunished is only encouraging more of this.
Considering Dreamhack still takes money from G2A, I doubt you'd get far with them
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Did Gumi signed a contract or something with Invasion? I mean, did both parties formalize the agreement through a paper contract? I really want to see that kind of instrument.
As a lawyer, I am geninuely intrigued about the fact that so many players are scammed regularily in the scene. Either the players are too naive, or e-sports is a fertile terrain for cons, frauds and the like.
Is there no lawyer when they organize the tourneys? Do Blizzard offer legal support to the scene in general, and to the players in particular?
I think that's the reason why the e-sports scene will never be mainstream: there is a scent of illegal activities around it.
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On January 18 2017 06:53 Apoteosis wrote:
Did Gumi signed a contract or something with Invasion? I mean, did both parties formalize the agreement through a paper contract? I really want to see that kind of instrument.
Like I said, the conflict is between Gumiho and Sebou, not Gumiho and Invasion. Sadly, as far as I know there was no written contract.
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On January 18 2017 07:00 CyanEsports wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2017 06:53 Apoteosis wrote:
Did Gumi signed a contract or something with Invasion? I mean, did both parties formalize the agreement through a paper contract? I really want to see that kind of instrument.
Like I said, the conflict is between Gumiho and Sebou, not Gumiho and Invasion. Sadly, as far as I know there was no written contract.
Not sure about that. I don't think a bunch of skype screenshots (possibly forged) prove anything.
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On January 18 2017 07:04 Ctone23 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2017 07:00 CyanEsports wrote:On January 18 2017 06:53 Apoteosis wrote:
Did Gumi signed a contract or something with Invasion? I mean, did both parties formalize the agreement through a paper contract? I really want to see that kind of instrument.
Like I said, the conflict is between Gumiho and Sebou, not Gumiho and Invasion. Sadly, as far as I know there was no written contract. Not sure about that. I don't think a bunch of skype screenshots (possibly forged) prove anything.
Well this is backed up by what Choya was saying and the screenshots he posted on twitter as well. Sebou was their target at the time, not Invasion. I'm not basing ANYTHING that I say on the screenshots that Sebou sent me. I said more than once in that statement that such things are easily doctored.
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On January 18 2017 07:07 CyanEsports wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2017 07:04 Ctone23 wrote:On January 18 2017 07:00 CyanEsports wrote:On January 18 2017 06:53 Apoteosis wrote:
Did Gumi signed a contract or something with Invasion? I mean, did both parties formalize the agreement through a paper contract? I really want to see that kind of instrument.
Like I said, the conflict is between Gumiho and Sebou, not Gumiho and Invasion. Sadly, as far as I know there was no written contract. Not sure about that. I don't think a bunch of skype screenshots (possibly forged) prove anything. Well this is backed up by what Choya was saying and the screenshots he posted on twitter as well. Sebou was their target at the time, not Invasion. I'm not basing ANYTHING that I say on the screenshots that Sebou sent me. I said more than once in that statement that such things are easily doctored.
But you are basing your statement off what Invasion told you, the org that hasn't made a peep since August. I'm just saying I don't think we can absolve anyone at this point.
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On January 18 2017 07:15 Ctone23 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2017 07:07 CyanEsports wrote:On January 18 2017 07:04 Ctone23 wrote:On January 18 2017 07:00 CyanEsports wrote:On January 18 2017 06:53 Apoteosis wrote:
Did Gumi signed a contract or something with Invasion? I mean, did both parties formalize the agreement through a paper contract? I really want to see that kind of instrument.
Like I said, the conflict is between Gumiho and Sebou, not Gumiho and Invasion. Sadly, as far as I know there was no written contract. Not sure about that. I don't think a bunch of skype screenshots (possibly forged) prove anything. Well this is backed up by what Choya was saying and the screenshots he posted on twitter as well. Sebou was their target at the time, not Invasion. I'm not basing ANYTHING that I say on the screenshots that Sebou sent me. I said more than once in that statement that such things are easily doctored. But you are basing your statement off what Invasion told you, the org that hasn't made a peep since August. I'm just saying I don't think we can absolve anyone at this point.
You're not wrong, fair play. Its possible that Invasion was hanging Sebou out to dry or colluding with Sebou's lie. But Choya went public to say that Sebou owed them money, not Invasion.
Those were the tweets that broke the issue. Its possible that Choya meant to implicate Invasion as well, but wouldn't he tweet at them as well, the same way he did Sebou? He also didn't try to implicate the organization of Invasion once throughout the whole ordeal. Choya might have meant Invasion, but I don't see why he wouldn't have made that crystal clear at the time. So I read those tweets as Choya saying that the deal was with Sebou, not the team.
It doesn't reeeeeally matter at the end of the day I guess. Sebou and invasion are both confirmed to be bad at this point.
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On January 18 2017 07:27 CyanEsports wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2017 07:15 Ctone23 wrote:On January 18 2017 07:07 CyanEsports wrote:On January 18 2017 07:04 Ctone23 wrote:On January 18 2017 07:00 CyanEsports wrote:On January 18 2017 06:53 Apoteosis wrote:
Did Gumi signed a contract or something with Invasion? I mean, did both parties formalize the agreement through a paper contract? I really want to see that kind of instrument.
Like I said, the conflict is between Gumiho and Sebou, not Gumiho and Invasion. Sadly, as far as I know there was no written contract. Not sure about that. I don't think a bunch of skype screenshots (possibly forged) prove anything. Well this is backed up by what Choya was saying and the screenshots he posted on twitter as well. Sebou was their target at the time, not Invasion. I'm not basing ANYTHING that I say on the screenshots that Sebou sent me. I said more than once in that statement that such things are easily doctored. But you are basing your statement off what Invasion told you, the org that hasn't made a peep since August. I'm just saying I don't think we can absolve anyone at this point. Its possible that Choya meant to implicate Invasion as well, but wouldn't he tweet at them as well, the same way he did Sebou? He also didn't try to implicate the organization of Invasion once throughout the whole ordeal. Choya might have meant Invasion, but I don't see why he wouldn't have made that crystal clear at the time. So I read those tweets as Choya saying that the deal was with Sebou, not the team. It doesn't reeeeeally matter at the end of the day I guess. Sebou and invasion are both confirmed to be bad at this point.
Yeah it makes sense what you're saying, and at the end of the day it reaallly doesn't matter. It just shows how "wild-west" esports still is imo.
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I don't quite understand why when somebody doesn't get paid they bitch about it on the internet....file a lawsuit or at least send them a demand letter. If you're really owed something, you'll get it that way.
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this is why teams should let the players collect the money then pay the what they are owed i would never let a player nnnnot benefit like this, same case as HyuN
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On January 18 2017 06:34 showstealer1829 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2017 04:25 Vutalisk wrote:
This is just ridiculous. Someone gotta do something about this. Report this to Blizzard or DH perhaps? Let this conniving weasel, Sebou, getting away with murder is unacceptable. This kind of behavior goes unpunished is only encouraging more of this. Considering Dreamhack still takes money from G2A, I doubt you'd get far with them
I see your point. I won't comment on G2A given I never use them before. I guess Blizzard should be notified or something regarding this matter. These are professional SC2 players who got scammed like that from the same individual. It is despicable and he should be considered a theft and a fraud!
My point is Sebou should pay back the prize money from DH because GuMiho earned it. It is his money. About the airfare and hotel + others which won't be able to get back, consider it is bad luck.
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Is there some reason these tournaments don't pay the winner directly?
Why is the cash always paid to the team?
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I would imagine you wouldn't have to sue through any over-seas venture. Just in whatever district the contract was written in. I've had similar issues with contracts. For example, if the contract refers to Pennsylvania as the filing state, you would sue in Pennsylvania Small Claims for small $25-50 filing fee and then book a flight / show up. All of which would be under $5,000. You may even be able to get a representative (friend or something) to attend on your behalf with a written statement. You may also sue for costs taking them to court. Of course, I don't know the specific legal situation of them and if it is more expensive, that blows. I'm sure a kickstarter for justice (as absurd as that sounds) would work or finding a rather new lawyer firm to do it pro-bono in return for testimonials / press / other promotional stuff to get their business going.
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We need an international kespa
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On January 18 2017 05:49 JuanDi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2017 05:28 NoobSkills wrote:
No team should ever be in charge of an individual players prize pool money.
Players who receive a salary should refuse to support any team if they are late on any salary payment.
Just my two cents. The thing is, when the team is honest, it actually makes sense for the team to receive the money. Sometimes it's in the contract that the team gets a share form the prize money and from what I've heard it also reduces the amount of taxes that go into that money.
I do understand that some contracts have the team receive money. Issue is, that it is much harder for an individual to sue an organization than it is for an organization to sue and individual. Also, in a scenario where a player doesn't give back XXX dollars the team then could refuse to send them to the next tournament, the player however has very little they can do to an organization in return.
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On January 18 2017 06:27 CyanEsports wrote:
PREFACE - Don't confuse this comment with me defending Invasion or Sebou. Screw those guys, I'm just giving you my experience with this story. When I say that this situation isn't clearly defined, don't take that the wrong way. kk?
I was working on this story a bit when it broke over the summer. I was in contact with both Sebou and Choya (though very very limited contact with Choya, his translator wanted to be paid and I couldn't afford to even make an offer). Neither party could give me anything to corroborate their story besides Skype screenshots from Sebou (which are easily doctored [and when each party posted these screenshots publicly, the other claimed that they were faked]). In fact what Sebou sent me seemed to have Choya writing VERY differently than he does normally (take that as you will).
I did reach out to Invasion for comment, and they claimed that any deals between Sebou and Gumiho/MKP were completely personal for Sebou and unattached from the team. You have to remember that Sebou wasn't the team owner, he was just a very wealthy team manager. Invasion also claimed that their contract with Startale had ended so no money was owed. The narrative there was that StarTale had breached the contract I think?
Sebou said he was in America at the time and he that the documents he had access to were limited. He sent me a batch of Skype screenshots and then posted a completely different set to twitter later. What he had sent me initially was basically irrelevant. It said nothing about the situation besides the fact that Choya and Sebou had talked, which both of them agreed on, they had obviously talked. And again, Skype screenshots are easily faked. And all the timestamps had been cropped out. He also claimed that because he was Swiss, there was no need for a contract, just a verbal agreement. Which seems like blatant BS-ery but heck maybe someone with international legal experience will step in and tell me otherwise.
I never did anything with the story because there was nothing for me to add that the public didn't already know. Sebou stopped replying to my questions and I wasn't able to find a translator to talk to Choya. And again, Sebou only had time-stamp-less skype screenshots. Choya posted twitter message logs that didn't reveal anything. No bank statements, no contracts, no transfer statements, nothing meaningful.
I just wanted to step in and remind people that Gumiho wasn't on Invasion when he placed at DH Tours. He was on MVP. Theoretically, the deal between Sebou and Choya/Gumiho was that he'd pay for the travel and hotel and he'd take what he was owed from Gumiho's winnings. It wasn't directly related to Invasion, as the team totally disowned the situation. Also wanted to talk a bit about my brief interaction with him.
Its a murky he-said/she-said situation here, but I think Sebou and Invasion have shown a pretty clear character streak now with conclusive proof of theft.
thanks for the insights.
the promotion i worked for had a commandment they always adhered to. the money got put directly into the hands of the winner ALWAYS. or they didn't pay it out and they'd wait. they would never let the any prize-winner-guy say "give it to my management team".
also, Dana White ALWAYS makes sure the UFC pays the fighters directly.
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Just wondering, if there is a contract, maybe they can send a debt collector after Sebou? Would that work? It might be cheaper than filing a lawsuit. Also, I hope that current progamers take note of these incidents and make sure they get a contract with their team, or at least something in writing to prevent stuff like this from happening. This is unfortunately happening too frequently now...
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I remember Choya bringing this up quite a long time ago, and I'm pretty sure he had some chat logs of Sebou. Maybe I'm remembering the names incorrectly, because it seems like this is breaking news.
I think it'd be wise to start using people's real names when it comes to corruption like this, as the story sounds like a joke to anyone who isn't familiar with the scene.
Best wishes to Gumiho et. al. with getting the money they deserve. Someone needs to file suit.
Edit: Someone answered my first question above, this isn't an entirely new story.
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so this is all a scam from the beginning?
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On January 18 2017 10:11 G5 wrote:I would imagine you wouldn't have to sue through any over-seas venture. Just in whatever district the contract was written in. I've had similar issues with contracts. For example, if the contract refers to Pennsylvania as the filing state, you would sue in Pennsylvania Small Claims for small $25-50 filing fee and then book a flight / show up. All of which would be under $5,000. You may even be able to get a representative (friend or something) to attend on your behalf with a written statement. You may also sue for costs taking them to court. Of course, I don't know the specific legal situation of them and if it is more expensive, that blows. I'm sure a kickstarter for justice (as absurd as that sounds) would work or finding a rather new lawyer firm to do it pro-bono in return for testimonials / press / other promotional stuff to get their business going.
I agree with this. GuMiho is Korean, and this certainly concerns business in Korea, so Korean courts have jurisdiction/venue. Service might be an issue, but I would hope he at least has an email address for sebou/invasion.
For the non-lawyers; if this happened in the US, you would just go down to small claims court (or your state's equivalent) and file a claim against the person or company that owed you money. The argument that it's not worth the money to sue actually works in favor of the plaintiff (the person suing). It's almost always not worth the money to hire a lawyer to present a defense, whereas it is pretty easy for the plaintiff to fill out the paperwork and present the case without a lawyer.
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EPT
