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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37044 Posts
In light of recent news in which Harstem, MajOr, and Lambo have all stated that they left Invasion eSport because they were never paid the money that they were owed, I felt compelled to share this as well.
In a recent interview with GuMiho through the tv show "dankshrine", hosted by "Toast", I had the pleasure of being the translator for GuMiho's LIVE Reddit AMA. In this interview, GuMiho revealed that he still has not been paid his DH 2nd place earnings of $5,000 from Invasion eSport. In fact, in the interview, GuMiho had this to say:
"Sebou initally said that he would pay me. He said this for about a year. When we heard nothing from him, Choya went public with the news. Sebou messaged us later and said that he was going to pay me but now is no longer going to because we brought this to the public's attention."
Quite honestly, this sickens me. If a player joins a team and works their butt off for the team's sake, then the least the team can do for that player is to pay them what their owed.
The 2015 DreamHack Open: Tours concluded back in May of 2015, which means GuMiho has been waiting to get his prize money for over a year and a half now. GuMiho also stated that Sebou and Invasion eSport had cut off all contact with him.
You can see the full interview here: https://www.twitch.tv/dankshrine/v/115283195 (The Invasion eSport stuff starts at 00:48:50)
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Well, that is unfortunate. I was slightly confused about who was being the bad guy here. At first I thought it was dreamhack - which is not the case though.
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This is just ridiculous. Someone gotta do something about this. Report this to Blizzard or DH perhaps? Let this conniving weasel, Sebou, getting away with murder is unacceptable. This kind of behavior goes unpunished is only encouraging more of this.
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South Korea2105 Posts
Aren't there any legal implications behind this? Can't they just file a lawsuit?
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On January 18 2017 04:27 ZiggyPG wrote:
Aren't there any legal implications behind this? Can't they just file a lawsuit?
With what money to pay for the lawyers?
The answer is yes, absolutely they can. Can they afford to see the lawsuit through? Thats a different matter entirely. It's complicated further by the fact that they're suing a Swiss organization internationally.
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These fuckers are so damn shady.. Fucking hate these money grabbing dicks!
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this guy sebou. everything is like bad news with him
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South Korea2105 Posts
What do they need a barrister for? This is a simple case, is it mandatory to have a representative in court?
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It's disgusted that a professional is not paid like this and has no way to seek justice.
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Are there any swiss Laywers here in the community?
Suing this piece of shit cannot be that hard. If a case like that would accur in germany, its quite easy to sue someone. And the Lawyers can be paid with the winning, or is even paid by the losing side.
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TCM-Gaming... Invasion eSport... no worth trash teams confirmed
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No team should ever be in charge of an individual players prize pool money.
Players who receive a salary should refuse to support any team if they are late on any salary payment.
Just my two cents.
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Afreeca/SBENU were partnered with Invasion for a while and they were also owed money. When Legend vented about the whole thing on Twitter (after Choya did the same), he said settling the issue legally overseas would cost them more than Sebou owed them. Maybe it's the same for GuMiho and Choya.
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On January 18 2017 05:28 NoobSkills wrote:
No team should ever be in charge of an individual players prize pool money.
Players who receive a salary should refuse to support any team if they are late on any salary payment.
Just my two cents.
The thing is, when the team is honest, it actually makes sense for the team to receive the money. Sometimes it's in the contract that the team gets a share form the prize money and from what I've heard it also reduces the amount of taxes that go into that money.
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yeah things like this make us miss kespa
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On January 18 2017 05:20 AlexGPunkt wrote:
Are there any swiss Laywers here in the community?
Suing this piece of shit cannot be that hard. If a case like that would accur in germany, its quite easy to sue someone. And the Lawyers can be paid with the winning, or is even paid by the losing side.
It would be a shame if people hired lawyers to sue Invasion, only to find out it's not really a company at all. Then who pays for the lawyer?
From their website: Invasion eSport is a french non-profit association managed by five members.
Did they create the non-profit? See steps here: https://www.angloinfo.com/how-to/france/working/starting-a-business/non-profit-associations
A non-profit association created in France can function without being declared. In this case it does not exist as a legal entity and falls under the collective ownership of all its members.
However, the association must be declared if a bank account is needed, if it collects membership fees or arranges fundraising, or if the members undertake any legal action or buy or sell on its behalf.
Assuming they had a bank account, pretty sure Sebou posted on reddit that there is a team account, they would of had to declare the non-profit.
I checked the French business registry here: https://www.infogreffe.fr/documents-officiels/procedures-demarches-infogreffe.html and found nothing under "invasion esport" and nothing resembling them when I searched for only "invasion"
EDIT: I also looked at the Swiss registry and found no results. TL;DR Is Invasion eSport an organization at all?
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On January 18 2017 05:58 sharkie wrote:
yeah things like this make us miss kespa
These things happen with and without KeSPA. Most of the time he was waiting for his prize money GuMiho was on a Proleague team.
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PREFACE - Don't confuse this comment with me defending Invasion or Sebou. Screw those guys, I'm just giving you my experience with this story. When I say that this situation isn't clearly defined, don't take that the wrong way. kk?
I was working on this story a bit when it broke over the summer. I was in contact with both Sebou and Choya (though very very limited contact with Choya, his translator wanted to be paid and I couldn't afford to even make an offer). Neither party could give me anything to corroborate their story besides Skype screenshots from Sebou (which are easily doctored [and when each party posted these screenshots publicly, the other claimed that they were faked]). In fact what Sebou sent me seemed to have Choya writing VERY differently than he does normally (take that as you will).
I did reach out to Invasion for comment, and they claimed that any deals between Sebou and Gumiho/MKP were completely personal for Sebou and unattached from the team. You have to remember that Sebou wasn't the team owner, he was just a very wealthy team manager. Invasion also claimed that their contract with Startale had ended so no money was owed. The narrative there was that StarTale had breached the contract I think?
Sebou said he was in America at the time and he that the documents he had access to were limited. He sent me a batch of Skype screenshots and then posted a completely different set to twitter later. What he had sent me initially was basically irrelevant. It said nothing about the situation besides the fact that Choya and Sebou had talked, which both of them agreed on, they had obviously talked. And again, Skype screenshots are easily faked. And all the timestamps had been cropped out. He also claimed that because he was Swiss, there was no need for a contract, just a verbal agreement. Which seems like blatant BS-ery but heck maybe someone with international legal experience will step in and tell me otherwise.
I never did anything with the story because there was nothing for me to add that the public didn't already know. Sebou stopped replying to my questions and I wasn't able to find a translator to talk to Choya. And again, Sebou only had time-stamp-less skype screenshots. Choya posted twitter message logs that didn't reveal anything. No bank statements, no contracts, no transfer statements, nothing meaningful.
I just wanted to step in and remind people that Gumiho wasn't on Invasion when he placed at DH Tours. He was on MVP. Theoretically, the deal between Sebou and Choya/Gumiho was that he'd pay for the travel and hotel and he'd take what he was owed from Gumiho's winnings. It wasn't directly related to Invasion, as the team totally disowned the situation. Also wanted to talk a bit about my brief interaction with him.
Its a murky he-said/she-said situation here, but I think Sebou and Invasion have shown a pretty clear character streak now with conclusive proof of theft.
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On January 18 2017 04:25 Vutalisk wrote:
This is just ridiculous. Someone gotta do something about this. Report this to Blizzard or DH perhaps? Let this conniving weasel, Sebou, getting away with murder is unacceptable. This kind of behavior goes unpunished is only encouraging more of this.
Considering Dreamhack still takes money from G2A, I doubt you'd get far with them
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Did Gumi signed a contract or something with Invasion? I mean, did both parties formalize the agreement through a paper contract? I really want to see that kind of instrument.
As a lawyer, I am geninuely intrigued about the fact that so many players are scammed regularily in the scene. Either the players are too naive, or e-sports is a fertile terrain for cons, frauds and the like.
Is there no lawyer when they organize the tourneys? Do Blizzard offer legal support to the scene in general, and to the players in particular?
I think that's the reason why the e-sports scene will never be mainstream: there is a scent of illegal activities around it.
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On January 18 2017 06:53 Apoteosis wrote:
Did Gumi signed a contract or something with Invasion? I mean, did both parties formalize the agreement through a paper contract? I really want to see that kind of instrument.
Like I said, the conflict is between Gumiho and Sebou, not Gumiho and Invasion. Sadly, as far as I know there was no written contract.
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On January 18 2017 07:00 CyanEsports wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2017 06:53 Apoteosis wrote:
Did Gumi signed a contract or something with Invasion? I mean, did both parties formalize the agreement through a paper contract? I really want to see that kind of instrument.
Like I said, the conflict is between Gumiho and Sebou, not Gumiho and Invasion. Sadly, as far as I know there was no written contract.
Not sure about that. I don't think a bunch of skype screenshots (possibly forged) prove anything.
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On January 18 2017 07:04 Ctone23 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2017 07:00 CyanEsports wrote:On January 18 2017 06:53 Apoteosis wrote:
Did Gumi signed a contract or something with Invasion? I mean, did both parties formalize the agreement through a paper contract? I really want to see that kind of instrument.
Like I said, the conflict is between Gumiho and Sebou, not Gumiho and Invasion. Sadly, as far as I know there was no written contract. Not sure about that. I don't think a bunch of skype screenshots (possibly forged) prove anything.
Well this is backed up by what Choya was saying and the screenshots he posted on twitter as well. Sebou was their target at the time, not Invasion. I'm not basing ANYTHING that I say on the screenshots that Sebou sent me. I said more than once in that statement that such things are easily doctored.
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On January 18 2017 07:07 CyanEsports wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2017 07:04 Ctone23 wrote:On January 18 2017 07:00 CyanEsports wrote:On January 18 2017 06:53 Apoteosis wrote:
Did Gumi signed a contract or something with Invasion? I mean, did both parties formalize the agreement through a paper contract? I really want to see that kind of instrument.
Like I said, the conflict is between Gumiho and Sebou, not Gumiho and Invasion. Sadly, as far as I know there was no written contract. Not sure about that. I don't think a bunch of skype screenshots (possibly forged) prove anything. Well this is backed up by what Choya was saying and the screenshots he posted on twitter as well. Sebou was their target at the time, not Invasion. I'm not basing ANYTHING that I say on the screenshots that Sebou sent me. I said more than once in that statement that such things are easily doctored.
But you are basing your statement off what Invasion told you, the org that hasn't made a peep since August. I'm just saying I don't think we can absolve anyone at this point.
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On January 18 2017 07:15 Ctone23 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2017 07:07 CyanEsports wrote:On January 18 2017 07:04 Ctone23 wrote:On January 18 2017 07:00 CyanEsports wrote:On January 18 2017 06:53 Apoteosis wrote:
Did Gumi signed a contract or something with Invasion? I mean, did both parties formalize the agreement through a paper contract? I really want to see that kind of instrument.
Like I said, the conflict is between Gumiho and Sebou, not Gumiho and Invasion. Sadly, as far as I know there was no written contract. Not sure about that. I don't think a bunch of skype screenshots (possibly forged) prove anything. Well this is backed up by what Choya was saying and the screenshots he posted on twitter as well. Sebou was their target at the time, not Invasion. I'm not basing ANYTHING that I say on the screenshots that Sebou sent me. I said more than once in that statement that such things are easily doctored. But you are basing your statement off what Invasion told you, the org that hasn't made a peep since August. I'm just saying I don't think we can absolve anyone at this point.
You're not wrong, fair play. Its possible that Invasion was hanging Sebou out to dry or colluding with Sebou's lie. But Choya went public to say that Sebou owed them money, not Invasion.
Those were the tweets that broke the issue. Its possible that Choya meant to implicate Invasion as well, but wouldn't he tweet at them as well, the same way he did Sebou? He also didn't try to implicate the organization of Invasion once throughout the whole ordeal. Choya might have meant Invasion, but I don't see why he wouldn't have made that crystal clear at the time. So I read those tweets as Choya saying that the deal was with Sebou, not the team.
It doesn't reeeeeally matter at the end of the day I guess. Sebou and invasion are both confirmed to be bad at this point.
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On January 18 2017 07:27 CyanEsports wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2017 07:15 Ctone23 wrote:On January 18 2017 07:07 CyanEsports wrote:On January 18 2017 07:04 Ctone23 wrote:On January 18 2017 07:00 CyanEsports wrote:On January 18 2017 06:53 Apoteosis wrote:
Did Gumi signed a contract or something with Invasion? I mean, did both parties formalize the agreement through a paper contract? I really want to see that kind of instrument.
Like I said, the conflict is between Gumiho and Sebou, not Gumiho and Invasion. Sadly, as far as I know there was no written contract. Not sure about that. I don't think a bunch of skype screenshots (possibly forged) prove anything. Well this is backed up by what Choya was saying and the screenshots he posted on twitter as well. Sebou was their target at the time, not Invasion. I'm not basing ANYTHING that I say on the screenshots that Sebou sent me. I said more than once in that statement that such things are easily doctored. But you are basing your statement off what Invasion told you, the org that hasn't made a peep since August. I'm just saying I don't think we can absolve anyone at this point. Its possible that Choya meant to implicate Invasion as well, but wouldn't he tweet at them as well, the same way he did Sebou? He also didn't try to implicate the organization of Invasion once throughout the whole ordeal. Choya might have meant Invasion, but I don't see why he wouldn't have made that crystal clear at the time. So I read those tweets as Choya saying that the deal was with Sebou, not the team. It doesn't reeeeeally matter at the end of the day I guess. Sebou and invasion are both confirmed to be bad at this point.
Yeah it makes sense what you're saying, and at the end of the day it reaallly doesn't matter. It just shows how "wild-west" esports still is imo.
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I don't quite understand why when somebody doesn't get paid they bitch about it on the internet....file a lawsuit or at least send them a demand letter. If you're really owed something, you'll get it that way.
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this is why teams should let the players collect the money then pay the what they are owed i would never let a player nnnnot benefit like this, same case as HyuN
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On January 18 2017 06:34 showstealer1829 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2017 04:25 Vutalisk wrote:
This is just ridiculous. Someone gotta do something about this. Report this to Blizzard or DH perhaps? Let this conniving weasel, Sebou, getting away with murder is unacceptable. This kind of behavior goes unpunished is only encouraging more of this. Considering Dreamhack still takes money from G2A, I doubt you'd get far with them
I see your point. I won't comment on G2A given I never use them before. I guess Blizzard should be notified or something regarding this matter. These are professional SC2 players who got scammed like that from the same individual. It is despicable and he should be considered a theft and a fraud!
My point is Sebou should pay back the prize money from DH because GuMiho earned it. It is his money. About the airfare and hotel + others which won't be able to get back, consider it is bad luck.
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Is there some reason these tournaments don't pay the winner directly?
Why is the cash always paid to the team?
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I would imagine you wouldn't have to sue through any over-seas venture. Just in whatever district the contract was written in. I've had similar issues with contracts. For example, if the contract refers to Pennsylvania as the filing state, you would sue in Pennsylvania Small Claims for small $25-50 filing fee and then book a flight / show up. All of which would be under $5,000. You may even be able to get a representative (friend or something) to attend on your behalf with a written statement. You may also sue for costs taking them to court. Of course, I don't know the specific legal situation of them and if it is more expensive, that blows. I'm sure a kickstarter for justice (as absurd as that sounds) would work or finding a rather new lawyer firm to do it pro-bono in return for testimonials / press / other promotional stuff to get their business going.
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We need an international kespa
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On January 18 2017 05:49 JuanDi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2017 05:28 NoobSkills wrote:
No team should ever be in charge of an individual players prize pool money.
Players who receive a salary should refuse to support any team if they are late on any salary payment.
Just my two cents. The thing is, when the team is honest, it actually makes sense for the team to receive the money. Sometimes it's in the contract that the team gets a share form the prize money and from what I've heard it also reduces the amount of taxes that go into that money.
I do understand that some contracts have the team receive money. Issue is, that it is much harder for an individual to sue an organization than it is for an organization to sue and individual. Also, in a scenario where a player doesn't give back XXX dollars the team then could refuse to send them to the next tournament, the player however has very little they can do to an organization in return.
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On January 18 2017 06:27 CyanEsports wrote:
PREFACE - Don't confuse this comment with me defending Invasion or Sebou. Screw those guys, I'm just giving you my experience with this story. When I say that this situation isn't clearly defined, don't take that the wrong way. kk?
I was working on this story a bit when it broke over the summer. I was in contact with both Sebou and Choya (though very very limited contact with Choya, his translator wanted to be paid and I couldn't afford to even make an offer). Neither party could give me anything to corroborate their story besides Skype screenshots from Sebou (which are easily doctored [and when each party posted these screenshots publicly, the other claimed that they were faked]). In fact what Sebou sent me seemed to have Choya writing VERY differently than he does normally (take that as you will).
I did reach out to Invasion for comment, and they claimed that any deals between Sebou and Gumiho/MKP were completely personal for Sebou and unattached from the team. You have to remember that Sebou wasn't the team owner, he was just a very wealthy team manager. Invasion also claimed that their contract with Startale had ended so no money was owed. The narrative there was that StarTale had breached the contract I think?
Sebou said he was in America at the time and he that the documents he had access to were limited. He sent me a batch of Skype screenshots and then posted a completely different set to twitter later. What he had sent me initially was basically irrelevant. It said nothing about the situation besides the fact that Choya and Sebou had talked, which both of them agreed on, they had obviously talked. And again, Skype screenshots are easily faked. And all the timestamps had been cropped out. He also claimed that because he was Swiss, there was no need for a contract, just a verbal agreement. Which seems like blatant BS-ery but heck maybe someone with international legal experience will step in and tell me otherwise.
I never did anything with the story because there was nothing for me to add that the public didn't already know. Sebou stopped replying to my questions and I wasn't able to find a translator to talk to Choya. And again, Sebou only had time-stamp-less skype screenshots. Choya posted twitter message logs that didn't reveal anything. No bank statements, no contracts, no transfer statements, nothing meaningful.
I just wanted to step in and remind people that Gumiho wasn't on Invasion when he placed at DH Tours. He was on MVP. Theoretically, the deal between Sebou and Choya/Gumiho was that he'd pay for the travel and hotel and he'd take what he was owed from Gumiho's winnings. It wasn't directly related to Invasion, as the team totally disowned the situation. Also wanted to talk a bit about my brief interaction with him.
Its a murky he-said/she-said situation here, but I think Sebou and Invasion have shown a pretty clear character streak now with conclusive proof of theft.
thanks for the insights.
the promotion i worked for had a commandment they always adhered to. the money got put directly into the hands of the winner ALWAYS. or they didn't pay it out and they'd wait. they would never let the any prize-winner-guy say "give it to my management team".
also, Dana White ALWAYS makes sure the UFC pays the fighters directly.
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Just wondering, if there is a contract, maybe they can send a debt collector after Sebou? Would that work? It might be cheaper than filing a lawsuit. Also, I hope that current progamers take note of these incidents and make sure they get a contract with their team, or at least something in writing to prevent stuff like this from happening. This is unfortunately happening too frequently now...
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I remember Choya bringing this up quite a long time ago, and I'm pretty sure he had some chat logs of Sebou. Maybe I'm remembering the names incorrectly, because it seems like this is breaking news.
I think it'd be wise to start using people's real names when it comes to corruption like this, as the story sounds like a joke to anyone who isn't familiar with the scene.
Best wishes to Gumiho et. al. with getting the money they deserve. Someone needs to file suit.
Edit: Someone answered my first question above, this isn't an entirely new story.
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so this is all a scam from the beginning?
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On January 18 2017 10:11 G5 wrote:I would imagine you wouldn't have to sue through any over-seas venture. Just in whatever district the contract was written in. I've had similar issues with contracts. For example, if the contract refers to Pennsylvania as the filing state, you would sue in Pennsylvania Small Claims for small $25-50 filing fee and then book a flight / show up. All of which would be under $5,000. You may even be able to get a representative (friend or something) to attend on your behalf with a written statement. You may also sue for costs taking them to court. Of course, I don't know the specific legal situation of them and if it is more expensive, that blows. I'm sure a kickstarter for justice (as absurd as that sounds) would work or finding a rather new lawyer firm to do it pro-bono in return for testimonials / press / other promotional stuff to get their business going.
I agree with this. GuMiho is Korean, and this certainly concerns business in Korea, so Korean courts have jurisdiction/venue. Service might be an issue, but I would hope he at least has an email address for sebou/invasion.
For the non-lawyers; if this happened in the US, you would just go down to small claims court (or your state's equivalent) and file a claim against the person or company that owed you money. The argument that it's not worth the money to sue actually works in favor of the plaintiff (the person suing). It's almost always not worth the money to hire a lawyer to present a defense, whereas it is pretty easy for the plaintiff to fill out the paperwork and present the case without a lawyer.
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So this Sebou guy gave Gumiho a personal sponsorship(flight+hotel), collected the prize money, kept all the money, and never reimbursed Gumiho for the flight tickets and hotel stay? Why did Gumiho pay for the flight and hotel with his own money to begin with?
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On January 18 2017 15:42 critique wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2017 10:11 G5 wrote:I would imagine you wouldn't have to sue through any over-seas venture. Just in whatever district the contract was written in. I've had similar issues with contracts. For example, if the contract refers to Pennsylvania as the filing state, you would sue in Pennsylvania Small Claims for small $25-50 filing fee and then book a flight / show up. All of which would be under $5,000. You may even be able to get a representative (friend or something) to attend on your behalf with a written statement. You may also sue for costs taking them to court. Of course, I don't know the specific legal situation of them and if it is more expensive, that blows. I'm sure a kickstarter for justice (as absurd as that sounds) would work or finding a rather new lawyer firm to do it pro-bono in return for testimonials / press / other promotional stuff to get their business going. I agree with this. GuMiho is Korean, and this certainly concerns business in Korea, so Korean courts have jurisdiction/venue. Service might be an issue, but I would hope he at least has an email address for sebou/invasion. For the non-lawyers; if this happened in the US, you would just go down to small claims court (or your state's equivalent) and file a claim against the person or company that owed you money. The argument that it's not worth the money to sue actually works in favor of the plaintiff (the person suing). It's almost always not worth the money to hire a lawyer to present a defense, whereas it is pretty easy for the plaintiff to fill out the paperwork and present the case without a lawyer.
In my opinion Korean courts don't have jurisdiction in this kind of lawsuit. Yes, GuMiho is Korean, but the contract (if there ever was one) was made with Swiss person in God knows which country... My point is, court jurisdiction in international lawsuits is set usually by a) the place, where the contract was made, or b) the place, where the damage was dealt. Or there is sometimes option c) jurisdiction has a court in the country of defendant (not the plaintiff). All of this means that if GuMiho would actually want to file a claim against Sebou, it'd have to be done either in Switzerland or somewhere else, where the contract was made (but almost certainly not in Korea). This would mean travel costs, high likely court fees and not to even mention getting a legal representative and translator (I know that court should provide a translator to a party that is not native in their country, but you still need to find a translator first for your own to debate the case with some lawyer that knows the legal situation in that country).
Hope you get my points, I haven't used my 'legal English' since way back at university, so it get pretty rusty.
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to be honest, im sure i still have the PMs i exchanged with the guys at invasion back when they first had DRG (iirc?) and before they became a foreigner team... where-in, they were trying to acknowledge my extreme and publicized fandom and said they would send me a team jersey like the players wore. they asked for my measurements and shipping info etc, and this was provided... and then nothing else ever happened. i never got the team jersey. it's kind of a weird thing to bring up or complain about, and i've never made a peep about it - i mean, someone was offering me free stuff. it was just shitty that the pretense was there and initiated by them, and that i was left hanging, over something like a jersey they specifically sought me out to offer to me. i thought it was a good move on their part, trying to nurture their fanbase in a grassroots way.
but, given that they dropped the ball on something as low cost as that.. i can't say it's too surprising that they've come up short in how they've handled these much bigger deals to do with paying their players as they promised? i mean, given that it /is/ eSports where we are sadly used to this kind of shit. I mean, i get it - i sponsored a local tournament once and it ended up taking me an extra few months to regain the money i had had, due to some unforeseen issues that came up, but i got around to it. you can't just... not pay people what you owe them.
anywho, just wanted to chime in with another angle of insight in to the character of invasion esports. can furnish proof of the PM exchange if anyone actually gives two shits about seeing that. it's a few years old now, i think.
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I'm not a lawyer but I'm swiss, and I can say one thing for certain: If Gumiho has any proof that he is owed the money he can get it easily. We have this thing called enforcment (Betreibung), to open it you have to pay CHF100 as far as I know. There is a department just following these enforcments, they will send you an invoice which if you don't pay it, they come to your house with the police and take away stuff like your car or whatever you have with the worth of the money you owe, after that they sell that stuff to get the money they need for their efforts and to pay the claim. Of course I don't know exact legal implications, but I know certainly that I would never ever don't pay a bill here in Switzerland, because you gonna get fucked. This is how this country works...
So I don't know about this story, either Gumiho and Choya never even talked to a swiss lawyer because they think they can't do anything, or they have no proof of their claim at all, second case would make them liars...
In any case it seems extremliy naiv to me, to give the entire prize money to a private person that will pay hotels and travels and then pay you the rest. Just get the whole prize and let that person make an invoice with the expenditures and then pay that invoice...
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I don't understand why tournaments would pay out the money to the team. While there might be some reasons, you can mostly always pay directly to the player. By the way - might be that TaKeTV is sometimes a bit slow on payments for different reasons - sometimes also because players are busy / slow themselves but we usually always pay the player. That should be the way to go too.
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On January 18 2017 20:36 TaKeTV wrote:
I don't understand why tournaments would pay out the money to the team. While there might be some reasons, you can mostly always pay directly to the player. By the way - might be that TaKeTV is sometimes a bit slow on payments for different reasons - sometimes also because players are busy / slow themselves but we usually always pay the player. That should be the way to go too.
Paying the money to teams instead of players means less money from the price money goes to taxes from what i remember.
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I'm not a lawyer but I'm swiss, and I can say one thing for certain: If Gumiho has any proof that he is owed the money he can get it easily. We have this thing called enforcment (Betreibung), to open it you have to pay CHF100 as far as I know. There is a department just following these enforcments, they will send you an invoice which if you don't pay it, they come to your house with the police and take away stuff like your car or whatever you have with the worth of the money you owe, after that they sell that stuff to get the money they need for their efforts and to pay the claim. Of course I don't know exact legal implications, but I know certainly that I would never ever don't pay a bill here in Switzerland, because you gonna get fucked. This is how this country works...
So I don't know about this story, either Gumiho and Choya never even talked to a swiss lawyer because they think they can't do anything, or they have no proof of their claim at all, second case would make them liars...
In any case it seems extremliy naiv to me, to give the entire prize money to a private person that will pay hotels and travels and then pay you the rest. Just get the whole prize and let that person make an invoice with the expenditures and then pay that invoice...
Hi there, also swiss here. The process is not that easy. When an enforcement is filed in Switzerland you get a letter regarding the matter (From who are you enforcement and on what claim). You have then like 7 days to file an objection and the whole enforcement is stopped. Then it starts actually with a meeting with a judge and the involved parties, however it is not a court case but more a try to finish the case with settlement.
Even if you win the court case, you might have troubles to get the money because you cannot find the person.
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Too bad for the hard working players training 10hrs a day trying to show their best for the fans and to represent a team only to get screwed by it.
Whoever this sebou moron is, i wish him warmly a lot of jail time
Also I completely agree with Take. Pay the player directly. Or at least a significant percentage split
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we need a crowdfunding/charity event campaign to collect those funds for the players that didn't get paid what they DESERVED.
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On January 18 2017 20:53 Mattidute wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2017 20:36 TaKeTV wrote:
I don't understand why tournaments would pay out the money to the team. While there might be some reasons, you can mostly always pay directly to the player. By the way - might be that TaKeTV is sometimes a bit slow on payments for different reasons - sometimes also because players are busy / slow themselves but we usually always pay the player. That should be the way to go too. Paying the money to teams instead of players means less money from the price money goes to taxes from what i remember.
No difference for us. As long as we have to pay outside of Germany, we pay the same tax no matter if private person or business.
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Is this guy that DemusliM defended when Choya made thoose tweets? If so, this is some spicy memes
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If he can't be sued, maybe he can be reported to the police for theft at least? He is a middle-man that kept all the money/is contractually obligated to give the money to gumiho (I assume he had a contract with the team).
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On January 18 2017 05:58 Ctone23 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2017 05:20 AlexGPunkt wrote:
Are there any swiss Laywers here in the community?
Suing this piece of shit cannot be that hard. If a case like that would accur in germany, its quite easy to sue someone. And the Lawyers can be paid with the winning, or is even paid by the losing side. It would be a shame if people hired lawyers to sue Invasion, only to find out it's not really a company at all. Then who pays for the lawyer? From their website: Did they create the non-profit? See steps here: https://www.angloinfo.com/how-to/france/working/starting-a-business/non-profit-associationsShow nested quote +A non-profit association created in France can function without being declared. In this case it does not exist as a legal entity and falls under the collective ownership of all its members.
However, the association must be declared if a bank account is needed, if it collects membership fees or arranges fundraising, or if the members undertake any legal action or buy or sell on its behalf. Assuming they had a bank account, pretty sure Sebou posted on reddit that there is a team account, they would of had to declare the non-profit. I checked the French business registry here: https://www.infogreffe.fr/documents-officiels/procedures-demarches-infogreffe.html and found nothing under "invasion esport" and nothing resembling them when I searched for only "invasion" EDIT: I also looked at the Swiss registry and found no results. TL;DR Is Invasion eSport an organization at all?
Non-profit organizations (called "Association Loi 1901" in France) won't be found in a business registry, but here : http://www.journal-officiel.gouv.fr/association/
As you can see if you search "Invasion", Invasion eSports has been officially declared on 18/10/2014. Their declared headquarters are right there.
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On January 18 2017 22:27 TaKeTV wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2017 20:53 Mattidute wrote:On January 18 2017 20:36 TaKeTV wrote:
I don't understand why tournaments would pay out the money to the team. While there might be some reasons, you can mostly always pay directly to the player. By the way - might be that TaKeTV is sometimes a bit slow on payments for different reasons - sometimes also because players are busy / slow themselves but we usually always pay the player. That should be the way to go too. Paying the money to teams instead of players means less money from the price money goes to taxes from what i remember. No difference for us. As long as we have to pay outside of Germany, we pay the same tax no matter if private person or business.
It has a big impact for DH prize money though. It's just the swedish law. Pay the player directly, 40% tax, pay a company, in this case the team, it's just 10% tax or something.
If players want to receive DH prize money directly, without going through a team, they should register their own company.
Best case would of course be, if teams could just be trusted  .
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I feel really sorry for the Invasion players, Gumiho and Choya. Specially as the guy was bragging a lot about how rich he is.
In an interview [1], they mentioned an Alcohol business that support them. Does someone know what brand is it and how KingSebou ( It's the guy who disappeared, right ?) is related to them ?
They mention another sponsor called librit.fr and being 5 peoples. As far as I know, nobodies of the staff as commented about this. It will also be nice to have comments of well known figures, like DeMusliM who defend the guy in the first place.
KingSebou was so talkative on twitter, that we should be able to collect enough evidence for a lawyer or at least spread some love to this business partner.
[1] http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/471089-invasion-esport-interview
~
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On January 19 2017 01:09 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2017 05:58 Ctone23 wrote:On January 18 2017 05:20 AlexGPunkt wrote:
Are there any swiss Laywers here in the community?
Suing this piece of shit cannot be that hard. If a case like that would accur in germany, its quite easy to sue someone. And the Lawyers can be paid with the winning, or is even paid by the losing side. It would be a shame if people hired lawyers to sue Invasion, only to find out it's not really a company at all. Then who pays for the lawyer? From their website: Invasion eSport is a french non-profit association managed by five members. Did they create the non-profit? See steps here: https://www.angloinfo.com/how-to/france/working/starting-a-business/non-profit-associationsA non-profit association created in France can function without being declared. In this case it does not exist as a legal entity and falls under the collective ownership of all its members.
However, the association must be declared if a bank account is needed, if it collects membership fees or arranges fundraising, or if the members undertake any legal action or buy or sell on its behalf. Assuming they had a bank account, pretty sure Sebou posted on reddit that there is a team account, they would of had to declare the non-profit. I checked the French business registry here: https://www.infogreffe.fr/documents-officiels/procedures-demarches-infogreffe.html and found nothing under "invasion esport" and nothing resembling them when I searched for only "invasion" EDIT: I also looked at the Swiss registry and found no results. TL;DR Is Invasion eSport an organization at all? Non-profit organizations (called "Association Loi 1901" in France) won't be found in a business registry, but here : http://www.journal-officiel.gouv.fr/association/As you can see if you search "Invasion", Invasion eSports has been officially declared on 18/10/2014. Their declared headquarters are right there.
Thank you for finding this!
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On January 19 2017 02:09 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2017 22:27 TaKeTV wrote:On January 18 2017 20:53 Mattidute wrote:On January 18 2017 20:36 TaKeTV wrote:
I don't understand why tournaments would pay out the money to the team. While there might be some reasons, you can mostly always pay directly to the player. By the way - might be that TaKeTV is sometimes a bit slow on payments for different reasons - sometimes also because players are busy / slow themselves but we usually always pay the player. That should be the way to go too. Paying the money to teams instead of players means less money from the price money goes to taxes from what i remember. No difference for us. As long as we have to pay outside of Germany, we pay the same tax no matter if private person or business. It has a big impact for DH prize money though. It's just the swedish law. Pay the player directly, 40% tax, pay a company, in this case the team, it's just 10% tax or something. If players want to receive DH prize money directly, without going through a team, they should register their own company. Best case would of course be, if teams could just be trusted .
Or if the money would go to a player's union... Less tax + trustworthiness
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Any news on what the pros said what they will do now?
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On January 19 2017 01:09 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2017 05:58 Ctone23 wrote:On January 18 2017 05:20 AlexGPunkt wrote:
Are there any swiss Laywers here in the community?
Suing this piece of shit cannot be that hard. If a case like that would accur in germany, its quite easy to sue someone. And the Lawyers can be paid with the winning, or is even paid by the losing side. It would be a shame if people hired lawyers to sue Invasion, only to find out it's not really a company at all. Then who pays for the lawyer? From their website: Invasion eSport is a french non-profit association managed by five members. Did they create the non-profit? See steps here: https://www.angloinfo.com/how-to/france/working/starting-a-business/non-profit-associationsA non-profit association created in France can function without being declared. In this case it does not exist as a legal entity and falls under the collective ownership of all its members.
However, the association must be declared if a bank account is needed, if it collects membership fees or arranges fundraising, or if the members undertake any legal action or buy or sell on its behalf. Assuming they had a bank account, pretty sure Sebou posted on reddit that there is a team account, they would of had to declare the non-profit. I checked the French business registry here: https://www.infogreffe.fr/documents-officiels/procedures-demarches-infogreffe.html and found nothing under "invasion esport" and nothing resembling them when I searched for only "invasion" EDIT: I also looked at the Swiss registry and found no results. TL;DR Is Invasion eSport an organization at all? Non-profit organizations (called "Association Loi 1901" in France) won't be found in a business registry, but here : http://www.journal-officiel.gouv.fr/association/As you can see if you search "Invasion", Invasion eSports has been officially declared on 18/10/2014. Their declared headquarters are right there.
Do you know of any way to check if Invasion has filed to dissolve? TCM Gaming quietly dissolved a while back, leaving any potential claims against them impossible.
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On January 19 2017 01:09 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2017 05:58 Ctone23 wrote:On January 18 2017 05:20 AlexGPunkt wrote:
Are there any swiss Laywers here in the community?
Suing this piece of shit cannot be that hard. If a case like that would accur in germany, its quite easy to sue someone. And the Lawyers can be paid with the winning, or is even paid by the losing side. It would be a shame if people hired lawyers to sue Invasion, only to find out it's not really a company at all. Then who pays for the lawyer? From their website: Invasion eSport is a french non-profit association managed by five members. Did they create the non-profit? See steps here: https://www.angloinfo.com/how-to/france/working/starting-a-business/non-profit-associationsA non-profit association created in France can function without being declared. In this case it does not exist as a legal entity and falls under the collective ownership of all its members.
However, the association must be declared if a bank account is needed, if it collects membership fees or arranges fundraising, or if the members undertake any legal action or buy or sell on its behalf. Assuming they had a bank account, pretty sure Sebou posted on reddit that there is a team account, they would of had to declare the non-profit. I checked the French business registry here: https://www.infogreffe.fr/documents-officiels/procedures-demarches-infogreffe.html and found nothing under "invasion esport" and nothing resembling them when I searched for only "invasion" EDIT: I also looked at the Swiss registry and found no results. TL;DR Is Invasion eSport an organization at all? Non-profit organizations (called "Association Loi 1901" in France) won't be found in a business registry, but here : http://www.journal-officiel.gouv.fr/association/As you can see if you search "Invasion", Invasion eSports has been officially declared on 18/10/2014. Their declared headquarters are right there.
Jesus, that looks like a run down house in the ghetto.
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On January 19 2017 07:32 Ctone23 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2017 01:09 OtherWorld wrote:On January 18 2017 05:58 Ctone23 wrote:On January 18 2017 05:20 AlexGPunkt wrote:
Are there any swiss Laywers here in the community?
Suing this piece of shit cannot be that hard. If a case like that would accur in germany, its quite easy to sue someone. And the Lawyers can be paid with the winning, or is even paid by the losing side. It would be a shame if people hired lawyers to sue Invasion, only to find out it's not really a company at all. Then who pays for the lawyer? From their website: Invasion eSport is a french non-profit association managed by five members. Did they create the non-profit? See steps here: https://www.angloinfo.com/how-to/france/working/starting-a-business/non-profit-associationsA non-profit association created in France can function without being declared. In this case it does not exist as a legal entity and falls under the collective ownership of all its members.
However, the association must be declared if a bank account is needed, if it collects membership fees or arranges fundraising, or if the members undertake any legal action or buy or sell on its behalf. Assuming they had a bank account, pretty sure Sebou posted on reddit that there is a team account, they would of had to declare the non-profit. I checked the French business registry here: https://www.infogreffe.fr/documents-officiels/procedures-demarches-infogreffe.html and found nothing under "invasion esport" and nothing resembling them when I searched for only "invasion" EDIT: I also looked at the Swiss registry and found no results. TL;DR Is Invasion eSport an organization at all? Non-profit organizations (called "Association Loi 1901" in France) won't be found in a business registry, but here : http://www.journal-officiel.gouv.fr/association/As you can see if you search "Invasion", Invasion eSports has been officially declared on 18/10/2014. Their declared headquarters are right there. Do you know of any way to check if Invasion has filed to dissolve? TCM Gaming quietly dissolved a while back, leaving any potential claims against them impossible.
Hard to determine. Afaik, officializing a dissolution by having it published in the Journal Officiel is not an obligation in France (unlike officializing a creation), and one that a potentially shady organization definitely won't fulfill.
Honestly, it's pretty hard to move on from here, without (a) knowing exactly the organization's statutes (les statuts de l'association, a document that you're legally bound to write when you create a non-profit organization, that details how shit works, who can do what, etc ; and most importantly, it probably details what happens in case of a dissolution : where does the money go ?) and/or (b) having direct contact with someone who knew the team's management (friends, etc).
(a) can be potentially obtained through the Préfecture de Seine-Saint-Denis, since that's where it was declared.
(b) is easier or harder to do, depending on how much effort you're willing to undertake. As a first step, I think checking with Invasion's sponsors might be useful (they had contact with the team's management, else they wouldn't be sponsors). This is even truer considering that I have high suspicion that three of their sponsors (LibrIT, Four Seasons Property and the alcohol brand that was never mentioned) are somehow linked to the team's creators ; probably family ties. LibrIT because it was there since the begining ; Four Seasons Property and the alcohol brand because, well, luxury brands usually just do not invest in eSports (and have zero, zero, zero interest in doing so), meaning this sponsorship was motivated by personal passion/pleasure.
EDIT : after a quick research, Four Seasons Property, through its administrative president Grégory Lyonnet, is indeed linked to a alcohol-related business, "Luxury Spirits SARL", a society whose goal is to "import, export, buy and sell wine, liquors, spirits, alcohol, and alcohol-free drinks". [1] [2]
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On January 19 2017 21:51 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2017 07:32 Ctone23 wrote:On January 19 2017 01:09 OtherWorld wrote:On January 18 2017 05:58 Ctone23 wrote:On January 18 2017 05:20 AlexGPunkt wrote:
Are there any swiss Laywers here in the community?
Suing this piece of shit cannot be that hard. If a case like that would accur in germany, its quite easy to sue someone. And the Lawyers can be paid with the winning, or is even paid by the losing side. It would be a shame if people hired lawyers to sue Invasion, only to find out it's not really a company at all. Then who pays for the lawyer? From their website: Invasion eSport is a french non-profit association managed by five members. Did they create the non-profit? See steps here: https://www.angloinfo.com/how-to/france/working/starting-a-business/non-profit-associationsA non-profit association created in France can function without being declared. In this case it does not exist as a legal entity and falls under the collective ownership of all its members.
However, the association must be declared if a bank account is needed, if it collects membership fees or arranges fundraising, or if the members undertake any legal action or buy or sell on its behalf. Assuming they had a bank account, pretty sure Sebou posted on reddit that there is a team account, they would of had to declare the non-profit. I checked the French business registry here: https://www.infogreffe.fr/documents-officiels/procedures-demarches-infogreffe.html and found nothing under "invasion esport" and nothing resembling them when I searched for only "invasion" EDIT: I also looked at the Swiss registry and found no results. TL;DR Is Invasion eSport an organization at all? Non-profit organizations (called "Association Loi 1901" in France) won't be found in a business registry, but here : http://www.journal-officiel.gouv.fr/association/As you can see if you search "Invasion", Invasion eSports has been officially declared on 18/10/2014. Their declared headquarters are right there. Do you know of any way to check if Invasion has filed to dissolve? TCM Gaming quietly dissolved a while back, leaving any potential claims against them impossible. Hard to determine. Afaik, officializing a dissolution by having it published in the Journal Officiel is not an obligation in France (unlike officializing a creation), and one that a potentially shady organization definitely won't fulfill. Honestly, it's pretty hard to move on from here, without (a) knowing exactly the organization's statutes ( les statuts de l'association, a document that you're legally bound to write when you create a non-profit organization, that details how shit works, who can do what, etc ; and most importantly, it probably details what happens in case of a dissolution : where does the money go ?) and/or (b) having direct contact with someone who knew the team's management (friends, etc). (a) can be potentially obtained through the Préfecture de Seine-Saint-Denis, since that's where it was declared. (b) is easier or harder to do, depending on how much effort you're willing to undertake. As a first step, I think checking with Invasion's sponsors might be useful (they had contact with the team's management, else they wouldn't be sponsors). This is even truer considering that I have high suspicion that three of their sponsors (LibrIT, Four Seasons Property and the alcohol brand that was never mentioned) are somehow linked to the team's creators ; probably family ties. LibrIT because it was there since the begining ; Four Seasons Property and the alcohol brand because, well, luxury brands usually just do not invest in eSports (and have zero, zero, zero interest in doing so), meaning this sponsorship was motivated by personal passion/pleasure. EDIT : after a quick research, Four Seasons Property, through its administrative president Grégory Lyonnet, is indeed linked to a alcohol-related business, "Luxury Spirits SARL", a society whose goal is to "import, export, buy and sell wine, liquors, spirits, alcohol, and alcohol-free drinks". [1] [2]
hmm yeah if they aren't required to provide notice if they dissolve then it doesn't seem like much can be done. Typically the money left over (they would clear out the account before) would go towards the state / government, provided no claim against them is made in the notice period. However, as you say, doesn't look like notice is required.
In the grand scheme of this, the dissolution is a moot point. It seems that the sponsors of Invasion have some personal connection with the managers, as you say, Four Seasons Property as a sponsor? Not likely..
It makes more sense to me now what's going on, Invasion was a passion project that was losing too much money and as a result the cord was pulled. It's not very realistic that anything comes from this, and I'm sure the powers that be fully realized that, which is sad
Still very much the wild west.
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thats pretty bad, how does this guy get away with this?
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Any way they could do some kind of class action lawsuit?
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Sad to see that people are still this shady almost 7 years into SC2.
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EPT
