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On December 09 2016 16:36 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2016 16:19 Qwyn wrote:On December 09 2016 15:23 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 09 2016 13:20 Qwyn wrote:
Why wouldn't they introduce the new hydra buff at the same time?
I don't really want to play against mech/skytoss cancer while having no new tools...The root of all evil is still not being addressed...
The dream is what Blade says...
The reality had better be at least enough HP to survive a liberator shot no matter the upgrades >.>. If I can't use hydras in ZvT after the NEXT "patch-patch" I think I'm done... There are coruptors, vipers, ravagers and hidras with superb mobility. Stop asking for 1a solutions against units that trade ALL of their mobility for fire power. Uhm....ALL of their mobility for enough firepower to ONE SHOT a 100/50 unit with 0 upgrades? Coupled with a 13 RANGE unit that also does incredible against hydras...There's actually no micro potential for hydras against liberators...at all. Other than "don't make them." Which is what everyone already does ~_~. Hmmm...I'm really asking a lot to be able to fight even somewhat decently against liberators with hydras without making a T3 spellcaster or (what you're suggesting) switching to a completely different tech path that Zerg have already been doing for 6 years... What if I want to play Sauron Zerg and just stay on Lair all day? I guess I'm fucked if I make hydralisks and the enemy starts to go tank liberator. Especially if he gets the range upgrade...Which is exactly, exactly the case. I understand your frustration as i've been advocating for different playstyles to be viable in this game, but you can't have a unit that kills the shit out of hellions, hellbats, mines when you have obs, tanks and all air. Don't you see how broken that is? It's like the HOTS Warhound plus anti-air.
I agree that hydra maybe got a little bit overbuffed.(but so did carriers and ravens)
But with reverting the range buff on the hydra playing vs carriers is gonna be frustrating as fuck, since the only reliable way to kill a carrier player now was to hit with a hydra timing before he got enough carriers.
So I wish they got at least compensated with a HP buff or keeping the range buff vs air only+making the hydra prioritize air unit while attack.
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Boy did my interest just wane.
Well to be honest my interest dissipated really fast with these awful old maps that weren't very good at the time. But this does not help.
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On December 09 2016 17:15 insitelol wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2016 15:35 hiroshOne wrote:
And the most funny thing is that this patch didn't cool down, and you people whine about more nerfs for Zerg- Nerf burrowed infestor casting!, Nerf Swarmhosts!, Nerf Corrosive Bile! Nerf Vipers more! For fuck sake...Just delete Zerg already huh? I wonder if Blizzard listens to whiners as you all,. what would have left from the Swarm. This is ballshit. Zerg now is basically worse than in 3.7. The only thing they buffed is Infestor burrow casting. I don't count SH because Blizzard said already at teh beginning of the patch that it will be nerfed. So let's resume- Broodlord- nerfed, Ultralisks- nerfed, Hydras buffed, than reverted as nothing changed...In the same time Terran is all about buffing, as same as Protoss. Thanks Blizzard. And all we asked for is buffing some midgame for Zerg to give us the swarmy feeling back in exchange for nerfing lategame. Now u ruined it all. Man, im pissed off about my race too, but your whine is way overboard. Zerg is by no means the weakest race, before or after the patch (and recent changes). Hydra is insanely OP with 7 range. That buff dind't make ANY FUCKING sense. It's just plain stupid. Im quite impressed that they reverted it though (because its blizzard... you know they "designed" units like SH, liberator... etc). Clinging to hydras range as the only option to deal with carriers makes no sense as well, because that's justifying one op unit to counter another op unit. And they will nerf the cost, believe me. I don't know anything about playing vs mech as zerg though, but there is definitely nothing to whine about in PvZ (after the carrier nerf). Zerg was absolutely fine in PvZ before 3.8. And now you got nerfed adept and buffed baneling/infestor/SH/potentially hydra HP buff. Don't even get me started on queens range that never should be implemented in the frist place. Zerg is in the best place ever since LoTV (aside from mech - but i doubt there are any real problems there).
"but there is definitely nothing to whine about in PvZ (after the carrier nerf)"
What Carrier nerf? Iluminate me please. Hahaha lol.
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As i said they will increase interceptors cost. Just a matter of time.
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I would be pretty shocked if they didn't say something about the carrier in this weeks or next weeks community feedback.
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The problem is, that increasing cost of interceptors from 5 minerals to 10 mineral would not solve anything.
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On December 09 2016 17:25 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2016 16:36 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 09 2016 16:19 Qwyn wrote:On December 09 2016 15:23 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 09 2016 13:20 Qwyn wrote:
Why wouldn't they introduce the new hydra buff at the same time?
I don't really want to play against mech/skytoss cancer while having no new tools...The root of all evil is still not being addressed...
The dream is what Blade says...
The reality had better be at least enough HP to survive a liberator shot no matter the upgrades >.>. If I can't use hydras in ZvT after the NEXT "patch-patch" I think I'm done... There are coruptors, vipers, ravagers and hidras with superb mobility. Stop asking for 1a solutions against units that trade ALL of their mobility for fire power. Uhm....ALL of their mobility for enough firepower to ONE SHOT a 100/50 unit with 0 upgrades? Coupled with a 13 RANGE unit that also does incredible against hydras...There's actually no micro potential for hydras against liberators...at all. Other than "don't make them." Which is what everyone already does ~_~. Hmmm...I'm really asking a lot to be able to fight even somewhat decently against liberators with hydras without making a T3 spellcaster or (what you're suggesting) switching to a completely different tech path that Zerg have already been doing for 6 years... What if I want to play Sauron Zerg and just stay on Lair all day? I guess I'm fucked if I make hydralisks and the enemy starts to go tank liberator. Especially if he gets the range upgrade...Which is exactly, exactly the case. I understand your frustration as i've been advocating for different playstyles to be viable in this game, but you can't have a unit that kills the shit out of hellions, hellbats, mines when you have obs, tanks and all air. Don't you see how broken that is? It's like the HOTS Warhound plus anti-air. I agree that hydra maybe got a little bit overbuffed.(but so did carriers and ravens) But with reverting the range buff on the hydra playing vs carriers is gonna be frustrating as fuck, since the only reliable way to kill a carrier player now was to hit with a hydra timing before he got enough carriers. So I wish they got at least compensated with a HP buff or keeping the range buff vs air only+making the hydra prioritize air unit while attack.
If they increase interceptor cost as they should IMO it will be fine. The point on having hidras have more range for anti air only is interesting though.
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Finally a great patch. People generally forget that whatever the cost of interceptors, after being destroyed the protoss needs time to make carriers attack again. Fungles and parasitic bombs kill interceptors immediatly and give the zerg a window to strike carriers with some corruptors. They just need to take good fights and not A-move at the wrong timing.
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On December 09 2016 18:05 FFgringo wrote:
Finally a great patch. People generally forget that whatever the cost of interceptors, after being destroyed the protoss needs time to make carriers attack again. Fungles and parasitic bombs kill interceptors immediatly and give the zerg a window to strike carriers with some corruptors. They just need to take good fights and not A-move at the wrong timing.
It takes 3 fungals to even kill an interceptor and they are extremely fast which makes it impossible to fungal most of them, while losing all your infestors to the interceptors you didn't get.
And you cant even target them with parasitic bomb so not sure why you even suggest that.
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On December 09 2016 18:15 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2016 18:05 FFgringo wrote:
Finally a great patch. People generally forget that whatever the cost of interceptors, after being destroyed the protoss needs time to make carriers attack again. Fungles and parasitic bombs kill interceptors immediatly and give the zerg a window to strike carriers with some corruptors. They just need to take good fights and not A-move at the wrong timing. It takes 3 fungals to even kill an interceptor and they are extremely fast which makes it impossible to fungal most of them, while losing all your infestors to the interceptors you didn't get. And you cant even target them with parasitic bomb so not sure why you even suggest that.
ah ok, i didn't know about parasitic bomb.
thanks for information
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I'll be honest I really don't understand much reasoning behind many of these changes. Nonetheless I'll put my thoughts on it.
Cyclone:
The Cyclone is very strong in the right compositions and with the right timings. The + range upgrade doesn't even make that much sense on the unit. You want the Cyclone to be in the front and tank the damage and then once you pull them back, at this moment the + range makes sense.
Cyclone+Ghost rushes are extremely strong, the area where Cyclones lose power is when you tech up as Mech. Mech needs to straight up win every single engagement with not many loses and the Cyclone is a unit which trades.
I think this is fine, since there's a lot of units in the game and so not every unit should be a core unit. This unit is a core unit until the big daddy Siege Tank takes over as the core unit for Mech.
I think a change which would be nice for the Cyclone, is Cyclone always has 4 range, but the Lock-On can hit ground units as well. So when you pull back the weakened Cyclone you also Lock-On to a target and you don't re-engage with the unit, you let it sit and survive, while shooting with Lock-On.
Then as an upgrade you can have +2 Lock-On acquiring range. So it can be more cost efficient in the mid game and not be crap vs Light units which are not Zerglings.
Hydralisk:
Thx now I don't have to off-race anymore, I can play Protoss again. What will Zerg do vs Carriers though? There's not less reason to go Carriers as Protoss, now there's just other options as well.
The +1 range made it so Hydralisks could actually get in and shoot the Carrier or Mothership, now they can only trade vs Interceptors and with 5 mineral Interceptors, it's not much of a trade.
Viper:
Viper change doesn't do anything, players will move units out of Blinding Cloud, if you wait the 6 seconds, your army is already gone. The Viper is on the receiving end of so many nerfs, it's got 4 spells which is unheard of from a spellcaster unit and it requires no Tech building. Every Zerg ability on this unit is subject to nerfs because of this, Zerg should have strong spells, but they cannot, because the Viper is too versatile.
Immortal/Tempest:
This is just ridiculous and I don't understand it. You realize that most players don't click this Barrier spell, just because you remove the option to click it, doesn't mean there are now less abilities to juggle. You could just disregard clicking it all together, it's on auto-cast as default! We gain nothing from this, all it does is buff Protoss and nerf skilled Protosses. There is one guy out there who has made it his deal, to always manually cast Barrier and that guy loves doing it. That guy probably messes up a lot of Protoss actions that other players do better, but he has mastered clicking the Barrier.
I'm sorry, but this is an area I'm very passionate about, the game of Starcraft is about the individual, his perception of the game and how he goes about problem solving. This guy might want to be the next Parting, thinking, man I really don't have an easy time beating Zerg in the late game, I'm gonna perfect this Immortal allin and that's how I will beat Zergs. He might be right, he might be wrong, but damn it this guy deserves the option!
But I guess it's easier to just BabyRage on Reddit, about there being too many abilities, even though that redditor probably never truly tried playing Protoss.
The same goes for the Tempest, if the Tempest was just buffed to 5 supply. I'm pretty sure some Protosses would mix in at least 1 into his skytoss army and use it for the Stun ability. Or we can change the Stun ability so that it's actually better, but no, instead we get the same old HotS Tempest, but now it 1 shots a Zergling from 10 range.. jubi!
And for some reason it one shots a Drone, because the only fun thing about this unit is the fact that it's never used, but it's used for this one proxy build, which is super annoying for the other player to deal with and other than that the unit serves no other real purpose. But hey, at least the broadcasters can go: "Rotti build!"
Yeah this patch is in the complete wrong direction, but at least 7 range Hydras is not a thing anymore.
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raven/carrier far too strong when massed
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People or just low league players still complaining about "oh my hidras cannot kill the carriers", ofc not and they are not supposed to, stop that senseless statement. My archons and stalkers cannot kill mass broodlords and they are not supposed to. Keep the hard work blizz! Change timewarp! And buff sentrys (they are no longer good with that cost).
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ADEPT nerf anyone....? not even from a balance perspective but can we agree they are annoying af in their current state? so many buffs and nerfs but ffs why not a reduction of shade time or cooldown. can someone plz shake dk...
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On December 09 2016 21:26 ILoveZest wrote:
People or just low league players still complaining about "oh my hidras cannot kill the carriers", ofc not and they are not supposed to, stop that senseless statement. My archons and stalkers cannot kill mass broodlords and they are not supposed to. Keep the hard work blizz! Change timewarp! And buff sentrys (they are no longer good with that cost).
It is not about hydras, there is nothing that kills mass carriers and it is very common complain in highest level as well.
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IloveZest i think your statement is senseless. I am just mid masters (div 2) i dunno if you consider that as lower league or not (and im t player not z). But what i see in korean games is the same problem.
And to counter your arguments:
1.) if stalkers blink under broodlords you can take them. It works in some situations not always. But you can also outrun broodlords that is the main problem with broodlords on most maps. And this goes not for carriers (especially with MC).
2.) what counters carriers? Tell the z players how they should play? The argument "dont let protoss get to that point" should not be valid. Otherwise the game is poorly designed imo.
3.) With the voidray speed they are a more valid and a strong support vs corruptors.
So protoss air just straight up got buffed.
I think the main problem is the carriers high damageoutput vs everything while interceptors being so cheap.
In a rock paper scissors game there should not be the possibility of massing 1 unit ( of course it also needs support but i think you get the point)
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On December 09 2016 21:26 ILoveZest wrote:
People or just low league players still complaining about "oh my hidras cannot kill the carriers", ofc not and they are not supposed to, stop that senseless statement. My archons and stalkers cannot kill mass broodlords and they are not supposed to. Keep the hard work blizz! Change timewarp! And buff sentrys (they are no longer good with that cost).
thou shaltz switchez onz urz brainzez. now thou shalts realizez:
teching to broodlords takes approximately one (1) century. so zeh protoss can tech to and mass the proper, perfect, protossly counter unit composition, e.g. sum tempests/voids/ht combined with oracle revelation periods of approximately one (1) century.
turtling and teching to carriers, on the other hand (surprisez!), can now be don within quite a short amount of time. and that amount of time, unfortunately, leaves the zerg just so little (like: very little) time to defend against adepts AND oracles AND dts AND tech AND mass to an ok-ish, cost-inefficient, paperboard counter unit composition against carriers.
now thou can switch it back off.
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On December 09 2016 07:01 Hider wrote:
Funny how it took them so long to realize that "fun" micro is related to unit-movement, not pressing buttons for the sake of it.
Now let's get rid of Forcefields and increase cooldowns of Corrosive Bile and Reaper bombs.
I doubt it took them this long, it's just that the Blizzard way ™ is to wait a few years before doing exactly what the community asked lest they look like admitting they were wrong about something.
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I'm disappointed with this patch. Hydra and vipers with nothing to compensate. We don't need to test old hydras. We should already be testing next change to them.
Cyclone change is ok, but they are just better boring unit now. Removal of immortal ability is ok, the buff is stupid.Tempest revert is ok. Another revert is sad, but protoss has already a lot of abilities so I don't mind that as much as long as their supply stays high.
No reaper and mainly carrier change, that's just sad. They could have been working on carriers being good and not broken once massed for long time. It's the easiest unit to change out of whole the SC2.
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EPT
