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Since our recent 3.8 design update, we’ve been testing various balance changes which lead Multiplayer designer David Kim has been regularly discussing in his Community Feedback Updates. Our overall goal in doing this has been to reach a place of ultimate gameplay stability, enabling players to truly master the game's many units, builds, strategies, and metagames. After continually reviewing your feedback and testing various changes internally, we are ready to move forward with the next step for design and balance improvements in StarCraft II. Below we have broken down the changes each race will receive today.
Terran
- Cyclone
- Anti-ground weapon range increased from 4 to 6.
- Anti-grounds weapon minimum scan range updated to 6.5
- "Mag-Field Launchers" upgrade removed.
Zerg
- Hydralisk
- "Evolve Grooved Spines" upgrade removed, and +1 range is now added back to "Muscular Augments" upgrade.
- Viper
- Reduced "Blinding Cloud" ability duration from 10 seconds to 6 seconds.
Protoss
- General
- Updated subgroup priorities for Tempest, Immortal, and Dark Templar.
- Immortal
- "Barrier" is now a passive ability, and its cooldown is reduced from 43 to 32.
- Tempest
- Removed "Disruption Blast" ability.
- Anti-ground weapon range increased from 8 to 10.
- Anti-ground weapon damage increased from 35 to 40.
If you're interested in the StarCraft II Balance Team's reasoning behind each change, take a look through some of the recent Community Feedback Updates for more information!
We truly appreciate all the feedback we’ve received from the community. Your feedback and playtesting helped shape this update, and we hope you’ll continue to participate in future balance testing. Until next time, we hope you enjoy these changes!
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Seems like a step in the right direction. Not sure how the Immortal "barrier" ability works now that it's a passive ability..
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I'm just happy they are going live so fast, so that Hydras can soon receive the correct buff.
Tempests seem super good now, but for 6 supply it's fair I guess.
Cyclone rushes, welcome back, we didn't miss you.
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hydra health buff and carrier nerf when
happy about removing tempest ability, not everything needs to be a spellcaster
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Does the hydra still get the new movement speed buff?
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This looks good! Would like to see some health buff for hydras... they are such a glass cannon still  . Still think mech needs a good viable anti air option though.
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On December 09 2016 04:12 Bareleon wrote:
Does the hydra still get the new movement speed buff?
Yeah they are still faster on creep. That's the only difference to the old hydra now. "Redesign"
On December 09 2016 04:14 Thorix77 wrote:
sooo.. hydra still has 7 range?
No, now they have 6 after the upgrade.
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good changes, cyclone can actually defend the base without being super vulnerable now, tanks can potentially get to fire
would still like to see infestor ground fungal removed, feels too strong, neural and infested terran ok to be ground cast
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So carriers which were already a pain to deal with in ZvP are now just that much harder to kill... GREAT
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On December 09 2016 04:06 geokilla wrote:
Seems like a step in the right direction. Not sure how the Immortal "barrier" ability works now that it's a passive ability..
doesn't matter since there are always lots of things to micro not including barriers
On December 09 2016 04:20 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
So carriers which were already a pain to deal with in ZvP are now just that much harder to kill... GREAT
and carriers is the only solution vs heavy hydra styles
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Mass Tempest before they get nerfed
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Greath changes, altough the cyclone is going the wrong direction, buff its AA and nerf its AG and I think mech will be in a pretty ok state, not perfect but good.
Also nerf the goddamn raven already.
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On December 09 2016 04:34 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2016 04:06 geokilla wrote:
Seems like a step in the right direction. Not sure how the Immortal "barrier" ability works now that it's a passive ability.. doesn't matter since there are always lots of things to micro not including barriers Show nested quote +On December 09 2016 04:20 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
So carriers which were already a pain to deal with in ZvP are now just that much harder to kill... GREAT and carriers is the only solution vs heavy hydra styles
...until the nerf...hence that comment...
soooooooooooo what does this mean? "Updated subgroup priorities for Tempest, Immortal, and Dark Templar."
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On December 09 2016 04:34 Bareleon wrote:
Mass Tempest before they get nerfed
What? Tempest is 6 supply 10 ground range and 40 ground damage vs 4 supply 15 range 30 ground in 3.7.
Hows that better
edit : didn't want to double post, don't kill me!
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I still don't see the point of Tempests and Void Rays when Carriers exist and are better units, Skytoss units are redundant as hell. I wish they'd just remove them at this point.
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On December 09 2016 04:47 ArtyK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2016 04:34 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On December 09 2016 04:06 geokilla wrote:
Seems like a step in the right direction. Not sure how the Immortal "barrier" ability works now that it's a passive ability.. doesn't matter since there are always lots of things to micro not including barriers On December 09 2016 04:20 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
So carriers which were already a pain to deal with in ZvP are now just that much harder to kill... GREAT and carriers is the only solution vs heavy hydra styles ...until the nerf...hence that comment... soooooooooooo what does this mean? "Updated subgroup priorities for Tempest, Immortal, and Dark Templar."
I think this means that the units will attack the Tempest > Immortal > Dark Templar? or maybe Dark Templar, Immortal, and then Tempest? Not sure to be honest, the wording is indeed pretty unclear.
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On December 09 2016 04:51 phodacbiet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2016 04:47 ArtyK wrote:On December 09 2016 04:34 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On December 09 2016 04:06 geokilla wrote:
Seems like a step in the right direction. Not sure how the Immortal "barrier" ability works now that it's a passive ability.. doesn't matter since there are always lots of things to micro not including barriers On December 09 2016 04:20 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
So carriers which were already a pain to deal with in ZvP are now just that much harder to kill... GREAT and carriers is the only solution vs heavy hydra styles ...until the nerf...hence that comment... soooooooooooo what does this mean? "Updated subgroup priorities for Tempest, Immortal, and Dark Templar." I think this means that the units will attack the Tempest > Immortal > Dark Templar? or maybe Dark Templar, Immortal, and then Tempest? Not sure to be honest, the wording is indeed pretty unclear.
It's about their order in a control group when you tab through them. Units with active abilities have higher priority, and from those three only DT has one now.
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On December 09 2016 04:57 aQuaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2016 04:51 phodacbiet wrote:On December 09 2016 04:47 ArtyK wrote:On December 09 2016 04:34 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On December 09 2016 04:06 geokilla wrote:
Seems like a step in the right direction. Not sure how the Immortal "barrier" ability works now that it's a passive ability.. doesn't matter since there are always lots of things to micro not including barriers On December 09 2016 04:20 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
So carriers which were already a pain to deal with in ZvP are now just that much harder to kill... GREAT and carriers is the only solution vs heavy hydra styles ...until the nerf...hence that comment... soooooooooooo what does this mean? "Updated subgroup priorities for Tempest, Immortal, and Dark Templar." I think this means that the units will attack the Tempest > Immortal > Dark Templar? or maybe Dark Templar, Immortal, and then Tempest? Not sure to be honest, the wording is indeed pretty unclear. It's about their order in a control group when you tab through them. Units with active abilities have higher priority, and from those three only DT has one now.
If you're right, it's what i thought and i'm pissed : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/516921-request-for-minor-gameplay-improvements
They need to do it for mines as well at least -_-
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Mass Carrier viability - check
Mass Tempest viability - check
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Why does the balance team keep trying to force their Cyclone all-ins? The unit is literally useless outside of all-inning or applying early pressure.
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as an outsider ive seen a endless stream of ''balance changes'' from blizzard
im wondering seriously is it going anywhere?
is there an achievement made from past changes?
would it maybe just be better to stop community feedback/suggestions or whatever and request blizzard to make a huge turn around and comeup with something really bold and creative on their own?
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A very good step in the right direction.
The only thing lacking is a Swarm Host price increase. Without it I doubt that mech will be viable in TvZ.
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please consider experimenting with Swarmhost locusts costing $5 or $10 or maybe 2 locusts for $5 or some kind of mineral cost per locust.
On December 09 2016 05:21 onlystar wrote:
as an outsider ive seen a endless stream of ''balance changes'' from blizzard
im wondering seriously is it going anywhere?
is there an achievement made from past changes?
would it maybe just be better to stop community feedback/suggestions or whatever and request blizzard to make a huge turn around and comeup with something really bold and creative on their own?
all the balance changes in WoL, HotS and year 1 LotV really don't mean much. The game was effectively reset.
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On December 09 2016 05:43 JimmyJRaynor wrote:please consider experimenting with Swarmhost locusts costing $5 or $10 or maybe 2 for $5 or some kind of mineral cost per locust. Show nested quote +On December 09 2016 05:21 onlystar wrote:
as an outsider ive seen a endless stream of ''balance changes'' from blizzard
im wondering seriously is it going anywhere?
is there an achievement made from past changes?
would it maybe just be better to stop community feedback/suggestions or whatever and request blizzard to make a huge turn around and comeup with something really bold and creative on their own? all the balance changes in WoL, HotS and year 1 LotV really don't mean much. The game was effectively reset.
I don't think you need the dollar symbol for minerals/vespene, unless you're suggesting in-game microtransactions...
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I dont understand the hydra upgrade removal?
Are they suggesting that hydralisks arent used enough or what
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On December 09 2016 05:49 Pontius Pirate wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2016 05:43 JimmyJRaynor wrote:please consider experimenting with Swarmhost locusts costing $5 or $10 or maybe 2 for $5 or some kind of mineral cost per locust. On December 09 2016 05:21 onlystar wrote:
as an outsider ive seen a endless stream of ''balance changes'' from blizzard
im wondering seriously is it going anywhere?
is there an achievement made from past changes?
would it maybe just be better to stop community feedback/suggestions or whatever and request blizzard to make a huge turn around and comeup with something really bold and creative on their own? all the balance changes in WoL, HotS and year 1 LotV really don't mean much. The game was effectively reset. I don't think you need the dollar symbol for minerals/vespene, unless you're suggesting in-game microtransactions...
Pay2Win swarm hosts are the future of starcraft
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On December 09 2016 05:49 Pontius Pirate wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2016 05:43 JimmyJRaynor wrote:please consider experimenting with Swarmhost locusts costing $5 or $10 or maybe 2 for $5 or some kind of mineral cost per locust. On December 09 2016 05:21 onlystar wrote:
as an outsider ive seen a endless stream of ''balance changes'' from blizzard
im wondering seriously is it going anywhere?
is there an achievement made from past changes?
would it maybe just be better to stop community feedback/suggestions or whatever and request blizzard to make a huge turn around and comeup with something really bold and creative on their own? all the balance changes in WoL, HotS and year 1 LotV really don't mean much. The game was effectively reset. I don't think you need the dollar symbol for minerals/vespene, unless you're suggesting in-game microtransactions...
$5 USD for a package of 10,000 locusts!
marine bullets.. $9.99 for 5,000 marine bullets.
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I guess Blizzard wasn't happy with Zerg being viable vs Skytoss for a week. Looks like the balance whiners win again.
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On December 09 2016 05:56 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2016 05:49 Pontius Pirate wrote:On December 09 2016 05:43 JimmyJRaynor wrote:please consider experimenting with Swarmhost locusts costing $5 or $10 or maybe 2 for $5 or some kind of mineral cost per locust. On December 09 2016 05:21 onlystar wrote:
as an outsider ive seen a endless stream of ''balance changes'' from blizzard
im wondering seriously is it going anywhere?
is there an achievement made from past changes?
would it maybe just be better to stop community feedback/suggestions or whatever and request blizzard to make a huge turn around and comeup with something really bold and creative on their own? all the balance changes in WoL, HotS and year 1 LotV really don't mean much. The game was effectively reset. I don't think you need the dollar symbol for minerals/vespene, unless you're suggesting in-game microtransactions... $5 USD for a package of 10,000 locusts! marine bullets.. $9.99 for 5,000 marine bullets.
Can't wait for Reaper Grenade Xmas Bundle!
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I wonder,.. didn´t they say the Hydralisk become the new Zerg core unit? Hydras are so important vs Protoss Airplay and now the fix them back,....
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On December 09 2016 06:07 Majick wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2016 05:56 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On December 09 2016 05:49 Pontius Pirate wrote:On December 09 2016 05:43 JimmyJRaynor wrote:please consider experimenting with Swarmhost locusts costing $5 or $10 or maybe 2 for $5 or some kind of mineral cost per locust. On December 09 2016 05:21 onlystar wrote:
as an outsider ive seen a endless stream of ''balance changes'' from blizzard
im wondering seriously is it going anywhere?
is there an achievement made from past changes?
would it maybe just be better to stop community feedback/suggestions or whatever and request blizzard to make a huge turn around and comeup with something really bold and creative on their own? all the balance changes in WoL, HotS and year 1 LotV really don't mean much. The game was effectively reset. I don't think you need the dollar symbol for minerals/vespene, unless you're suggesting in-game microtransactions... $5 USD for a package of 10,000 locusts! marine bullets.. $9.99 for 5,000 marine bullets. Can't wait for Reaper Grenade Xmas Bundle!
Buy 2 Rax and get the 3rd one Free*
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On December 09 2016 06:11 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2016 06:07 Majick wrote:On December 09 2016 05:56 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On December 09 2016 05:49 Pontius Pirate wrote:On December 09 2016 05:43 JimmyJRaynor wrote:please consider experimenting with Swarmhost locusts costing $5 or $10 or maybe 2 for $5 or some kind of mineral cost per locust. On December 09 2016 05:21 onlystar wrote:
as an outsider ive seen a endless stream of ''balance changes'' from blizzard
im wondering seriously is it going anywhere?
is there an achievement made from past changes?
would it maybe just be better to stop community feedback/suggestions or whatever and request blizzard to make a huge turn around and comeup with something really bold and creative on their own? all the balance changes in WoL, HotS and year 1 LotV really don't mean much. The game was effectively reset. I don't think you need the dollar symbol for minerals/vespene, unless you're suggesting in-game microtransactions... $5 USD for a package of 10,000 locusts! marine bullets.. $9.99 for 5,000 marine bullets. Can't wait for Reaper Grenade Xmas Bundle! Buy 2 Rax and get the 3rd one Free*
Buy bunkers stocks and in a couple of years take your profits and retire.
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Infestors should have to surface to use Fungal Growth, I mean it only makes sense right for it to make itself vulnerable to use a potent spell?
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Golden armada inbound
Too bad did not get time to play with super range hydra before the nerf TT
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Im glad they are adressing things fast.. however do not even think about mech vs swarm host even a bit.. HotS was horrible in that regard
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On December 09 2016 04:18 bakemonoda wrote:
good changes, cyclone can actually defend the base without being super vulnerable now, tanks can potentially get to fire
would still like to see infestor ground fungal removed, feels too strong, neural and infested terran ok to be ground cast
Yea remove ground fungal
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Interesting quote:
This would make it so that the micro is focused more on positioning your units so the shield soaks up as much as possible and vulnerable immortals are rescued.
Funny how it took them so long to realize that "fun" micro is related to unit-movement, not pressing buttons for the sake of it.
Now let's get rid of Forcefields and increase cooldowns of Corrosive Bile and Reaper bombs.
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On December 09 2016 05:51 Psychobabas wrote:
I dont understand the hydra upgrade removal?
Are they suggesting that hydralisks arent used enough or what
They took the upgrade and smooshed it with another upgrade, so now you get two for one, unless I read their notes wrong.
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On December 09 2016 07:13 reneg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2016 05:51 Psychobabas wrote:
I dont understand the hydra upgrade removal?
Are they suggesting that hydralisks arent used enough or what They took the upgrade and smooshed it with another upgrade, so now you get two for one, unless I read their notes wrong.
But now the only difference with patch 3.7 is that hydras gets the speed boost on creep, they don't get 7 range
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other things to fix: reaper grenade, ravens, parasitic bomb, burrow fungal, carriers
but good balance changes
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On December 09 2016 07:15 ArtyK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2016 07:13 reneg wrote:On December 09 2016 05:51 Psychobabas wrote:
I dont understand the hydra upgrade removal?
Are they suggesting that hydralisks arent used enough or what They took the upgrade and smooshed it with another upgrade, so now you get two for one, unless I read their notes wrong. But now the only difference with patch 3.7 is that hydras gets the speed boost on creep, they don't get 7 range
But don't they go to range 6 now? Since they took that and slammed it back into muscular? Which I think would definitely placate many people (since the range was one of the key concerns)
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On December 09 2016 07:24 reneg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2016 07:15 ArtyK wrote:On December 09 2016 07:13 reneg wrote:On December 09 2016 05:51 Psychobabas wrote:
I dont understand the hydra upgrade removal?
Are they suggesting that hydralisks arent used enough or what They took the upgrade and smooshed it with another upgrade, so now you get two for one, unless I read their notes wrong. But now the only difference with patch 3.7 is that hydras gets the speed boost on creep, they don't get 7 range But don't they go to range 6 now? Since they took that and slammed it back into muscular? Which I think would definitely placate many people (since the range was one of the key concerns)
Patch 3.7 had 6 range hydras, so yeah.
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On December 09 2016 04:34 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2016 04:06 geokilla wrote:
Seems like a step in the right direction. Not sure how the Immortal "barrier" ability works now that it's a passive ability.. doesn't matter since there are always lots of things to micro not including barriers Show nested quote +On December 09 2016 04:20 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
So carriers which were already a pain to deal with in ZvP are now just that much harder to kill... GREAT and carriers is the only solution vs heavy hydra styles
Not anymore. Hydra's are almost the exact same now as pre-patch, only difference now is they get a speed boost on creep. So if you still lose to the style, it's on you and can't blame the buffed Hydra  .
I wish Blizzard would put Hydra's to 1 supply and nerf stats/cost to compensate. Would be soo nice.
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On December 09 2016 04:20 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
So carriers which were already a pain to deal with in ZvP are now just that much harder to kill... GREAT
try ling bane into corruptor timings, I've had a lot of success with it.
with the ling bane army you can decimate his economy with constant ling runbys/drops after busting his wall and then you can switch into carapace upgraded corruptors to kill the carriers. It works really well.
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Stop.Buffing.Damaging...Everything already dies in .2 seconds.
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This is a decent little patch, but there more work to be done.
Protoss is still a race of spell casters - makes them hard to balance
Aerial armies are still overpowered especially in mass - necessitates cancer abilities like Parasitic Bomb and Seeker Missiles/counter mass aerial armies
The Swarm Host still existing - Why have such a horribly designed/difficult to balance unit? I swear the SH has gone through about as many revisions as the Oracle at this point and it's still imbalanced vs. mech, just scrap this trash unit or redesign it to help deal with mass air play, something Zerg has historically struggled against.
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So Zerg being back at having to allin in the midgame vs mech/skytoss.
fun
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Airtoss amove is back guys, feels like WoL again.
Seriously, they don't play their own game and don't even bother reading what we write, not even what progamers wrote in last Balance Patch thread.
How the hell is zerg suposed to deal with airtoss without a compensation for that hydra nerf?
Why are swarm hosts and reaper grenades still in the game?
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So Hydras aren't supposed to be a core unit. Why did you get our hopes up Blizzard?
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Do none of you hydra complainers read?
They agreed with pro players that the range buff was too much and are reverting it before they will make a buff to something else. Hp buff or cost buff are on the tables.
Still, they have a speed buff compared to pre 3.8. How do you know that isn't a big enough change to make them more viable than pre 3.8. And possibly with the infester buff and swarmhost buff they will be made part of the stable composition.
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On December 09 2016 09:18 mGGrinehart wrote:
Do none of you hydra complainers read?
They agreed with pro players that the range buff was too much and are reverting it before they will make a buff to something else. Hp buff or cost buff are on the tables.
Still, they have a speed buff compared to pre 3.8. How do you know that isn't a big enough change to make them more viable than pre 3.8. And possibly with the infester buff and swarmhost buff they will be made part of the stable composition.
Those same pros also said that the problem with the Hydra is that it is far too squishy to be a core unit, and that they either want a health or armor buff or for it to be reworked as a tier 1 unit.
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When I see the 3-0 with 3 same cheesy games Classic have won vs INnovation today ( SGL or something like that, that were Wardy who casted in English and Crank in Korean ) for me something is wrong and not correctly balanced.
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Just wrecking with proxy cyclones right now, they are so ridiculously good early game against Protoss now 
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O look Destiny Cloud Fist cyclone :D. Topkek.
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Why wouldn't they introduce the new hydra buff at the same time?
I don't really want to play against mech/skytoss cancer while having no new tools...The root of all evil is still not being addressed...
The dream is what Blade says...
The reality had better be at least enough HP to survive a liberator shot no matter the upgrades >.>. If I can't use hydras in ZvT after the NEXT "patch-patch" I think I'm done...
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I fear mass tempests will return as a hard counter PvMech but we'll see.
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Yeah. Until that mysterious buff comes into play. Hydras will once again fade back into irrelevance and into being a pretty bad unit. The only answer for carriers zerg will have is to hope and pray with infestors and corruptors.
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On December 09 2016 13:49 Sapphire.lux wrote:
I fear mass tempests will return as a hard counter PvMech but we'll see.
Yeah... this is just a strange retreat on so many fronts.
On December 09 2016 07:01 Hider wrote:Interesting quote: Show nested quote + This would make it so that the micro is focused more on positioning your units so the shield soaks up as much as possible and vulnerable immortals are rescued. Funny how it took them so long to realize that "fun" micro is related to unit-movement, not pressing buttons for the sake of it. Now let's get rid of Forcefields and increase cooldowns of Corrosive Bile and Reaper bombs.
I might quote you at a later time.
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Every game vs Zergs that know how to abuse is them massing 100% swarmhost. Not that fun.
I have a 75% winrate vs Protoss massing pure swarmhost off 2 base. There is nothing the opponent can do to respond because i swarmhost bomb a base, and then escape thru nydus network and keep doing it till they die.
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Wait, let me get this straight, they nerfed larva generation and broodlord, reverted buffs to ultra and hydra, now they also nerfed viper?!
I'm not a fan of balance whines, but seriously, what is my late game? How do I beat a full power composition from Terran or protoss? And I'm not even talking about the fantasy end game ones. Just a full 200 supply late game army?
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On December 09 2016 13:20 Qwyn wrote:
Why wouldn't they introduce the new hydra buff at the same time?
I don't really want to play against mech/skytoss cancer while having no new tools...The root of all evil is still not being addressed...
The dream is what Blade says...
The reality had better be at least enough HP to survive a liberator shot no matter the upgrades >.>. If I can't use hydras in ZvT after the NEXT "patch-patch" I think I'm done...
There are coruptors, vipers, ravagers and hidras with superb mobility. Stop asking for 1a solutions against units that trade ALL of their mobility for fire power.
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On December 09 2016 13:49 Soke wrote:
Yeah. Until that mysterious buff comes into play. Hydras will once again fade back into irrelevance and into being a pretty bad unit. The only answer for carriers zerg will have is to hope and pray with infestors and corruptors.
the way DK discussed it i think the Hydra buff is arriving quickly... like less than 4 weeks.
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On December 09 2016 15:23 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2016 13:20 Qwyn wrote:
Why wouldn't they introduce the new hydra buff at the same time?
I don't really want to play against mech/skytoss cancer while having no new tools...The root of all evil is still not being addressed...
The dream is what Blade says...
The reality had better be at least enough HP to survive a liberator shot no matter the upgrades >.>. If I can't use hydras in ZvT after the NEXT "patch-patch" I think I'm done... There are coruptors, vipers, ravagers and hidras with superb mobility. Stop asking for 1a solutions against units that trade ALL of their mobility for fire power.
What u're saying is wrong and pretty much funny as u cry since years for a-move AntiAir for mech Terran. LOL
And it's clear to me that u never faced Protoss on 3.8 patch while playing Zerg. Also uo forget that hydras are only little bit faster on creep. That's all. Carriers, just when they reach number of 5 are pretty much unstopabble. And knowing this from pro players feedback, Blizzard decides to nerf core midgame antiair unit for Zerg, basically reverting it to the same shit as it was at 3.7.
Now. This changes are Huuuuge nerfs for Zerg. In the same time, Blizzard buffs Tempests as if SkyTosss wouldn't be OP already. That's hilarious.
And the most funny thing is that this patch didn't cool down, and you people whine about more nerfs for Zerg- Nerf burrowed infestor casting!, Nerf Swarmhosts!, Nerf Corrosive Bile! Nerf Vipers more! For fuck sake...Just delete Zerg already huh? I wonder if Blizzard listens to whiners as you all,. what would have left from the Swarm. This is ballshit. Zerg now is basically worse than in 3.7. The only thing they buffed is Infestor burrow casting. I don't count SH because Blizzard said already at teh beginning of the patch that it will be nerfed. So let's resume- Broodlord- nerfed, Ultralisks- nerfed, Hydras buffed, than reverted as nothing changed...In the same time Terran is all about buffing, as same as Protoss. Thanks Blizzard. And all we asked for is buffing some midgame for Zerg to give us the swarmy feeling back in exchange for nerfing lategame. Now u ruined it all.
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if u r indeed correct i bet you a pretty quick Hydra buff provides the midgame buff you seek.
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On December 09 2016 15:41 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
if u r indeed correct i bet you a pretty quick Hydra buff provides the midgame buff you seek.
I really don't know if 10hp buff will be enough to compensate, especially with all that skyToss and mech buffing. They will pretty much die the same, being still fragile as fuck.
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On December 09 2016 15:35 hiroshOne wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2016 15:23 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 09 2016 13:20 Qwyn wrote:
Why wouldn't they introduce the new hydra buff at the same time?
I don't really want to play against mech/skytoss cancer while having no new tools...The root of all evil is still not being addressed...
The dream is what Blade says...
The reality had better be at least enough HP to survive a liberator shot no matter the upgrades >.>. If I can't use hydras in ZvT after the NEXT "patch-patch" I think I'm done... There are coruptors, vipers, ravagers and hidras with superb mobility. Stop asking for 1a solutions against units that trade ALL of their mobility for fire power. What u're saying is wrong and pretty much funny as u cry since years for a-move AntiAir for mech Terran. LOL And it's clear to me that u never faced Protoss on 3.8 patch while playing Zerg. Also uo forget that hydras are only little bit faster on creep. That's all. Carriers, just when they reach number of 5 are pretty much unstopabble. And knowing this from pro players feedback, Blizzard decides to nerf core midgame antiair unit for Zerg, basically reverting it to the same shit as it was at 3.7. Now. This changes are Huuuuge nerfs for Zerg. In the same time, Blizzard buffs Tempests as if SkyTosss wouldn't be OP already. That's hilarious. And the most funny thing is that this patch didn't cool down, and you people whine about more nerfs for Zerg- Nerf burrowed infestor casting!, Nerf Swarmhosts!, Nerf Corrosive Bile! Nerf Vipers more! For fuck sake...Just delete Zerg already huh? I wonder if Blizzard listens to whiners as you all,. what would have left from the Swarm. This is ballshit. Zerg now is basically worse than in 3.7. The only thing they buffed is Infestor burrow casting. I don't count SH because Blizzard said already at teh beginning of the patch that it will be nerfed. So let's resume- Broodlord- nerfed, Ultralisks- nerfed, Hydras buffed, than reverted as nothing changed...In the same time Terran is all about buffing, as same as Protoss. Thanks Blizzard. And all we asked for is buffing some midgame for Zerg to give us the swarmy feeling back in exchange for nerfing lategame. Now u ruined it all.
I was asking for a simple factory unit that's good at AA, not a unit that has insane dps against both ground and air with all the mobility and range and hp.
Since the patch i also dislike how cheap interceptors are as i feel it takes a way away from fighting them: killing interceptors. Tempests, Ravens and most air units that can be massed and be a standing army that mostly destroys ground armies are also something i've "cried" about for years as i feel it makes for less interesting gameplay to both watch and play, from either side.
There are more nerfs coming to Zerg you are right here, Infestors and SHs are next. Hopefully fallowed by Ravens and Interceptor cost.
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"There are more nerfs coming to Zerg you are right here, Infestors and SHs are next. Hopefully fallowed by Ravens and Interceptor cost."
Well, i really hope that you're not right about that. Zerg already with these changes is the weakest race. I would agree with all that changes if Blizz would bring 4 larva back, so the Zerg's strength would lie in early economy advantage and production advantage. If not- Zerg with all that buffs for Terran and Protoss would be unplayable. So either stop nerfing Zerg units, or buff macro. Zerg supposed to be weaker in units department but stronger in production and eco. Now it's all messed up.
And if u demand Infestor nerf- i want HighTemplars and Ravens nerfed too. As Nerchio said- the most OP caster in sc2 is HT not Infestors or Vipers.
As for SH nerf- i don't care about this unit. Especially that Blizzard said themselves that SH is destined to be nerfed. This 3.8 buff was released just to force players to ever use this shit unit.
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On December 09 2016 15:35 hiroshOne wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2016 15:23 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 09 2016 13:20 Qwyn wrote:
Why wouldn't they introduce the new hydra buff at the same time?
I don't really want to play against mech/skytoss cancer while having no new tools...The root of all evil is still not being addressed...
The dream is what Blade says...
The reality had better be at least enough HP to survive a liberator shot no matter the upgrades >.>. If I can't use hydras in ZvT after the NEXT "patch-patch" I think I'm done... There are coruptors, vipers, ravagers and hidras with superb mobility. Stop asking for 1a solutions against units that trade ALL of their mobility for fire power. What u're saying is wrong and pretty much funny as u cry since years for a-move AntiAir for mech Terran. LOL And it's clear to me that u never faced Protoss on 3.8 patch while playing Zerg. Also uo forget that hydras are only little bit faster on creep. That's all. Carriers, just when they reach number of 5 are pretty much unstopabble. And knowing this from pro players feedback, Blizzard decides to nerf core midgame antiair unit for Zerg, basically reverting it to the same shit as it was at 3.7. Now. This changes are Huuuuge nerfs for Zerg. In the same time, Blizzard buffs Tempests as if SkyTosss wouldn't be OP already. That's hilarious. And the most funny thing is that this patch didn't cool down, and you people whine about more nerfs for Zerg- Nerf burrowed infestor casting!, Nerf Swarmhosts!, Nerf Corrosive Bile! Nerf Vipers more! For fuck sake...Just delete Zerg already huh? I wonder if Blizzard listens to whiners as you all,. what would have left from the Swarm. This is ballshit. Zerg now is basically worse than in 3.7. The only thing they buffed is Infestor burrow casting. I don't count SH because Blizzard said already at teh beginning of the patch that it will be nerfed. So let's resume- Broodlord- nerfed, Ultralisks- nerfed, Hydras buffed, than reverted as nothing changed...In the same time Terran is all about buffing, as same as Protoss. Thanks Blizzard. And all we asked for is buffing some midgame for Zerg to give us the swarmy feeling back in exchange for nerfing lategame. Now u ruined it all.
Eh...Yeah Terran got buffed for sure, but don't forget two huge nerfs to Protoss:
Adept shade range got reduced to 2, which is a pretty big nerf
Tempest ground range reduced from 15 to 10 (though with damage increase vs ground) and supply increased from 4-6
These are not small nerfs by any means
As for Zerg, they got a huge buff with casting while burrowed Infestors, and Hydras still retain the speed buff.
The Zerg nerfs:
Broodlord range reduced by 1.
Ultralisk armor changed from 1 to 2, and the upgrade gives one two less armor
Also, viper blinding cloud decreased to 6 seconds from 10
Hydra still maintains speed buff
I'm just going to say that the ultralisks actually got buffed in the midgame and minorly nerfed in the late game. I feel like minus one range to broodlords and minus one overall armor to ultralisks really shouldn't bother you that much. I mean, please tell me how one less range on your broodlords and one less armor to ultralisks hurt you that much. The viper one is a bit more substantial, but it's not as major as the tempest or the adept nerf.
Besides, if you go back and look at the tournament distribution of wins and what not, Zerg was not doing poorly by any means.
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On December 09 2016 15:58 hiroshOne wrote:
"There are more nerfs coming to Zerg you are right here, Infestors and SHs are next. Hopefully fallowed by Ravens and Interceptor cost."
Well, i really hope that you're not right about that. Zerg already with these changes is the weakest race. I would agree with all that changes if Blizz would bring 4 larva back, so the Zerg's strength would lie in early economy advantage and production advantage. If not- Zerg with all that buffs for Terran and Protoss would be unplayable. So either stop nerfing Zerg units, or buff macro. Zerg supposed to be weaker in units department but stronger in production and eco. Now it's all messed up.
And if u demand Infestor nerf- i want HighTemplars and Ravens nerfed too. As Nerchio said- the most OP caster in sc2 is HT not Infestors or Vipers.
As for SH nerf- i don't care about this unit. Especially that Blizzard said themselves that SH is destined to be nerfed. This 3.8 buff was released just to force players to ever use this shit unit.
Nerchio has his opinions, i like listening more to what PIG and other Zergs have to say. The Infestor has the potential to completely destabilize Terran bio because there is a problem of detection there. As a mech player i'm not that affected. I already said i hate mass ravens and HTs i think are strong but balanced; they don't make other strategies for Z/T impossible, like the Viper does to mech.
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On December 09 2016 15:23 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2016 13:20 Qwyn wrote:
Why wouldn't they introduce the new hydra buff at the same time?
I don't really want to play against mech/skytoss cancer while having no new tools...The root of all evil is still not being addressed...
The dream is what Blade says...
The reality had better be at least enough HP to survive a liberator shot no matter the upgrades >.>. If I can't use hydras in ZvT after the NEXT "patch-patch" I think I'm done... There are coruptors, vipers, ravagers and hidras with superb mobility. Stop asking for 1a solutions against units that trade ALL of their mobility for fire power.
Uhm....ALL of their mobility for enough firepower to ONE SHOT a 100/50 unit with 0 upgrades? Coupled with a 13 RANGE unit that also does incredible against hydras...There's actually no micro potential for hydras against liberators...at all. Other than "don't make them." Which is what everyone already does ~_~.
Hmmm...I'm really asking a lot to be able to fight even somewhat decently against liberators with hydras without making a T3 spellcaster or (what you're suggesting) switching to a completely different tech path that Zerg have already been doing for 6 years...
What if I want to play Sauron Zerg and just stay on Lair all day? I guess I'm fucked if I make hydralisks and the enemy starts to go tank liberator. Especially if he gets the range upgrade...Which is exactly, exactly the case.
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On December 09 2016 05:06 SlammerSC2 wrote:
Mass Tempest viability - check
Tempest is 6 supply - didn't check.
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Broodlord-1 and especially Ultralisks armour nerf is huge.
With Ultralisks nerf, now marines and marauders deal 100% more damage to them. In the scenario when ultra has plating and 3/3 and bio has 3/3 upgrades, ultralisks can be kited easily and killed. It's like before 3.8- if u had only 2/2 on ultra with plating they still would die from BIO. But i don't mind that nerfs. But to be honest i don't feel as Blizzard compensated this. Burrowed casting for Infestors seems a way to do this.
If Zerg didn't go poorly, now it will. Especially in ZvP with Carriers wrecking everything.
Without Viper- mech would wreck Zerg mainly because of strong tanks.
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On December 09 2016 16:19 Qwyn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2016 15:23 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 09 2016 13:20 Qwyn wrote:
Why wouldn't they introduce the new hydra buff at the same time?
I don't really want to play against mech/skytoss cancer while having no new tools...The root of all evil is still not being addressed...
The dream is what Blade says...
The reality had better be at least enough HP to survive a liberator shot no matter the upgrades >.>. If I can't use hydras in ZvT after the NEXT "patch-patch" I think I'm done... There are coruptors, vipers, ravagers and hidras with superb mobility. Stop asking for 1a solutions against units that trade ALL of their mobility for fire power. Uhm....ALL of their mobility for enough firepower to ONE SHOT a 100/50 unit with 0 upgrades? Coupled with a 13 RANGE unit that also does incredible against hydras...There's actually no micro potential for hydras against liberators...at all. Other than "don't make them." Which is what everyone already does ~_~. Hmmm...I'm really asking a lot to be able to fight even somewhat decently against liberators with hydras without making a T3 spellcaster or (what you're suggesting) switching to a completely different tech path that Zerg have already been doing for 6 years... What if I want to play Sauron Zerg and just stay on Lair all day? I guess I'm fucked if I make hydralisks and the enemy starts to go tank liberator. Especially if he gets the range upgrade...Which is exactly, exactly the case.
I understand your frustration as i've been advocating for different playstyles to be viable in this game, but you can't have a unit that kills the shit out of hellions, hellbats, mines when you have obs, tanks and all air. Don't you see how broken that is? It's like the HOTS Warhound plus anti-air.
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On December 09 2016 15:35 hiroshOne wrote:
And the most funny thing is that this patch didn't cool down, and you people whine about more nerfs for Zerg- Nerf burrowed infestor casting!, Nerf Swarmhosts!, Nerf Corrosive Bile! Nerf Vipers more! For fuck sake...Just delete Zerg already huh? I wonder if Blizzard listens to whiners as you all,. what would have left from the Swarm. This is ballshit. Zerg now is basically worse than in 3.7. The only thing they buffed is Infestor burrow casting. I don't count SH because Blizzard said already at teh beginning of the patch that it will be nerfed. So let's resume- Broodlord- nerfed, Ultralisks- nerfed, Hydras buffed, than reverted as nothing changed...In the same time Terran is all about buffing, as same as Protoss. Thanks Blizzard. And all we asked for is buffing some midgame for Zerg to give us the swarmy feeling back in exchange for nerfing lategame. Now u ruined it all.
Man, im pissed off about my race too, but your whine is way overboard. Zerg is by no means the weakest race, before or after the patch (and recent changes). Hydra is insanely OP with 7 range. That buff dind't make ANY FUCKING sense. It's just plain stupid. Im quite impressed that they reverted it though (because its blizzard... you know they "designed" units like SH, liberator... etc). Clinging to hydras range as the only option to deal with carriers makes no sense as well, because that's justifying one op unit to counter another op unit. And they will nerf the cost, believe me. I don't know anything about playing vs mech as zerg though, but there is definitely nothing to whine about in PvZ (after the carrier nerf). Zerg was absolutely fine in PvZ before 3.8. And now you got nerfed adept and buffed baneling/infestor/SH/potentially hydra HP buff. Don't even get me started on queens range that never should be implemented in the frist place. Zerg is in the best place ever since LoTV (aside from mech - but i doubt there are any real problems there).
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Those changes are pretty good but next step imo should be upgreading cyclone AA as i posted before if Blizz is afraid of potential to much damage output, i suggest just decreace the time cyclone needs to shot those160 damage, for example from 14 second slower it to 6 seconds which would pretty visible diffrence already.
On Hydras i agree that some health buff would be cool to see, jsut test it as this season is mostly about testing anyways.
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Oh and other thing we could do to hydras is this long waited cost change
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On December 09 2016 16:36 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2016 16:19 Qwyn wrote:On December 09 2016 15:23 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 09 2016 13:20 Qwyn wrote:
Why wouldn't they introduce the new hydra buff at the same time?
I don't really want to play against mech/skytoss cancer while having no new tools...The root of all evil is still not being addressed...
The dream is what Blade says...
The reality had better be at least enough HP to survive a liberator shot no matter the upgrades >.>. If I can't use hydras in ZvT after the NEXT "patch-patch" I think I'm done... There are coruptors, vipers, ravagers and hidras with superb mobility. Stop asking for 1a solutions against units that trade ALL of their mobility for fire power. Uhm....ALL of their mobility for enough firepower to ONE SHOT a 100/50 unit with 0 upgrades? Coupled with a 13 RANGE unit that also does incredible against hydras...There's actually no micro potential for hydras against liberators...at all. Other than "don't make them." Which is what everyone already does ~_~. Hmmm...I'm really asking a lot to be able to fight even somewhat decently against liberators with hydras without making a T3 spellcaster or (what you're suggesting) switching to a completely different tech path that Zerg have already been doing for 6 years... What if I want to play Sauron Zerg and just stay on Lair all day? I guess I'm fucked if I make hydralisks and the enemy starts to go tank liberator. Especially if he gets the range upgrade...Which is exactly, exactly the case. I understand your frustration as i've been advocating for different playstyles to be viable in this game, but you can't have a unit that kills the shit out of hellions, hellbats, mines when you have obs, tanks and all air. Don't you see how broken that is? It's like the HOTS Warhound plus anti-air.
I agree that hydra maybe got a little bit overbuffed.(but so did carriers and ravens)
But with reverting the range buff on the hydra playing vs carriers is gonna be frustrating as fuck, since the only reliable way to kill a carrier player now was to hit with a hydra timing before he got enough carriers.
So I wish they got at least compensated with a HP buff or keeping the range buff vs air only+making the hydra prioritize air unit while attack.
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Boy did my interest just wane.
Well to be honest my interest dissipated really fast with these awful old maps that weren't very good at the time. But this does not help.
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On December 09 2016 17:15 insitelol wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2016 15:35 hiroshOne wrote:
And the most funny thing is that this patch didn't cool down, and you people whine about more nerfs for Zerg- Nerf burrowed infestor casting!, Nerf Swarmhosts!, Nerf Corrosive Bile! Nerf Vipers more! For fuck sake...Just delete Zerg already huh? I wonder if Blizzard listens to whiners as you all,. what would have left from the Swarm. This is ballshit. Zerg now is basically worse than in 3.7. The only thing they buffed is Infestor burrow casting. I don't count SH because Blizzard said already at teh beginning of the patch that it will be nerfed. So let's resume- Broodlord- nerfed, Ultralisks- nerfed, Hydras buffed, than reverted as nothing changed...In the same time Terran is all about buffing, as same as Protoss. Thanks Blizzard. And all we asked for is buffing some midgame for Zerg to give us the swarmy feeling back in exchange for nerfing lategame. Now u ruined it all. Man, im pissed off about my race too, but your whine is way overboard. Zerg is by no means the weakest race, before or after the patch (and recent changes). Hydra is insanely OP with 7 range. That buff dind't make ANY FUCKING sense. It's just plain stupid. Im quite impressed that they reverted it though (because its blizzard... you know they "designed" units like SH, liberator... etc). Clinging to hydras range as the only option to deal with carriers makes no sense as well, because that's justifying one op unit to counter another op unit. And they will nerf the cost, believe me. I don't know anything about playing vs mech as zerg though, but there is definitely nothing to whine about in PvZ (after the carrier nerf). Zerg was absolutely fine in PvZ before 3.8. And now you got nerfed adept and buffed baneling/infestor/SH/potentially hydra HP buff. Don't even get me started on queens range that never should be implemented in the frist place. Zerg is in the best place ever since LoTV (aside from mech - but i doubt there are any real problems there).
"but there is definitely nothing to whine about in PvZ (after the carrier nerf)"
What Carrier nerf? Iluminate me please. Hahaha lol.
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As i said they will increase interceptors cost. Just a matter of time.
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I would be pretty shocked if they didn't say something about the carrier in this weeks or next weeks community feedback.
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The problem is, that increasing cost of interceptors from 5 minerals to 10 mineral would not solve anything.
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On December 09 2016 17:25 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2016 16:36 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 09 2016 16:19 Qwyn wrote:On December 09 2016 15:23 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 09 2016 13:20 Qwyn wrote:
Why wouldn't they introduce the new hydra buff at the same time?
I don't really want to play against mech/skytoss cancer while having no new tools...The root of all evil is still not being addressed...
The dream is what Blade says...
The reality had better be at least enough HP to survive a liberator shot no matter the upgrades >.>. If I can't use hydras in ZvT after the NEXT "patch-patch" I think I'm done... There are coruptors, vipers, ravagers and hidras with superb mobility. Stop asking for 1a solutions against units that trade ALL of their mobility for fire power. Uhm....ALL of their mobility for enough firepower to ONE SHOT a 100/50 unit with 0 upgrades? Coupled with a 13 RANGE unit that also does incredible against hydras...There's actually no micro potential for hydras against liberators...at all. Other than "don't make them." Which is what everyone already does ~_~. Hmmm...I'm really asking a lot to be able to fight even somewhat decently against liberators with hydras without making a T3 spellcaster or (what you're suggesting) switching to a completely different tech path that Zerg have already been doing for 6 years... What if I want to play Sauron Zerg and just stay on Lair all day? I guess I'm fucked if I make hydralisks and the enemy starts to go tank liberator. Especially if he gets the range upgrade...Which is exactly, exactly the case. I understand your frustration as i've been advocating for different playstyles to be viable in this game, but you can't have a unit that kills the shit out of hellions, hellbats, mines when you have obs, tanks and all air. Don't you see how broken that is? It's like the HOTS Warhound plus anti-air. I agree that hydra maybe got a little bit overbuffed.(but so did carriers and ravens) But with reverting the range buff on the hydra playing vs carriers is gonna be frustrating as fuck, since the only reliable way to kill a carrier player now was to hit with a hydra timing before he got enough carriers. So I wish they got at least compensated with a HP buff or keeping the range buff vs air only+making the hydra prioritize air unit while attack.
If they increase interceptor cost as they should IMO it will be fine. The point on having hidras have more range for anti air only is interesting though.
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Finally a great patch. People generally forget that whatever the cost of interceptors, after being destroyed the protoss needs time to make carriers attack again. Fungles and parasitic bombs kill interceptors immediatly and give the zerg a window to strike carriers with some corruptors. They just need to take good fights and not A-move at the wrong timing.
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On December 09 2016 18:05 FFgringo wrote:
Finally a great patch. People generally forget that whatever the cost of interceptors, after being destroyed the protoss needs time to make carriers attack again. Fungles and parasitic bombs kill interceptors immediatly and give the zerg a window to strike carriers with some corruptors. They just need to take good fights and not A-move at the wrong timing.
It takes 3 fungals to even kill an interceptor and they are extremely fast which makes it impossible to fungal most of them, while losing all your infestors to the interceptors you didn't get.
And you cant even target them with parasitic bomb so not sure why you even suggest that.
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On December 09 2016 18:15 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2016 18:05 FFgringo wrote:
Finally a great patch. People generally forget that whatever the cost of interceptors, after being destroyed the protoss needs time to make carriers attack again. Fungles and parasitic bombs kill interceptors immediatly and give the zerg a window to strike carriers with some corruptors. They just need to take good fights and not A-move at the wrong timing. It takes 3 fungals to even kill an interceptor and they are extremely fast which makes it impossible to fungal most of them, while losing all your infestors to the interceptors you didn't get. And you cant even target them with parasitic bomb so not sure why you even suggest that.
ah ok, i didn't know about parasitic bomb.
thanks for information
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I'll be honest I really don't understand much reasoning behind many of these changes. Nonetheless I'll put my thoughts on it.
Cyclone:
The Cyclone is very strong in the right compositions and with the right timings. The + range upgrade doesn't even make that much sense on the unit. You want the Cyclone to be in the front and tank the damage and then once you pull them back, at this moment the + range makes sense.
Cyclone+Ghost rushes are extremely strong, the area where Cyclones lose power is when you tech up as Mech. Mech needs to straight up win every single engagement with not many loses and the Cyclone is a unit which trades.
I think this is fine, since there's a lot of units in the game and so not every unit should be a core unit. This unit is a core unit until the big daddy Siege Tank takes over as the core unit for Mech.
I think a change which would be nice for the Cyclone, is Cyclone always has 4 range, but the Lock-On can hit ground units as well. So when you pull back the weakened Cyclone you also Lock-On to a target and you don't re-engage with the unit, you let it sit and survive, while shooting with Lock-On.
Then as an upgrade you can have +2 Lock-On acquiring range. So it can be more cost efficient in the mid game and not be crap vs Light units which are not Zerglings.
Hydralisk:
Thx now I don't have to off-race anymore, I can play Protoss again. What will Zerg do vs Carriers though? There's not less reason to go Carriers as Protoss, now there's just other options as well.
The +1 range made it so Hydralisks could actually get in and shoot the Carrier or Mothership, now they can only trade vs Interceptors and with 5 mineral Interceptors, it's not much of a trade.
Viper:
Viper change doesn't do anything, players will move units out of Blinding Cloud, if you wait the 6 seconds, your army is already gone. The Viper is on the receiving end of so many nerfs, it's got 4 spells which is unheard of from a spellcaster unit and it requires no Tech building. Every Zerg ability on this unit is subject to nerfs because of this, Zerg should have strong spells, but they cannot, because the Viper is too versatile.
Immortal/Tempest:
This is just ridiculous and I don't understand it. You realize that most players don't click this Barrier spell, just because you remove the option to click it, doesn't mean there are now less abilities to juggle. You could just disregard clicking it all together, it's on auto-cast as default! We gain nothing from this, all it does is buff Protoss and nerf skilled Protosses. There is one guy out there who has made it his deal, to always manually cast Barrier and that guy loves doing it. That guy probably messes up a lot of Protoss actions that other players do better, but he has mastered clicking the Barrier.
I'm sorry, but this is an area I'm very passionate about, the game of Starcraft is about the individual, his perception of the game and how he goes about problem solving. This guy might want to be the next Parting, thinking, man I really don't have an easy time beating Zerg in the late game, I'm gonna perfect this Immortal allin and that's how I will beat Zergs. He might be right, he might be wrong, but damn it this guy deserves the option!
But I guess it's easier to just BabyRage on Reddit, about there being too many abilities, even though that redditor probably never truly tried playing Protoss.
The same goes for the Tempest, if the Tempest was just buffed to 5 supply. I'm pretty sure some Protosses would mix in at least 1 into his skytoss army and use it for the Stun ability. Or we can change the Stun ability so that it's actually better, but no, instead we get the same old HotS Tempest, but now it 1 shots a Zergling from 10 range.. jubi!
And for some reason it one shots a Drone, because the only fun thing about this unit is the fact that it's never used, but it's used for this one proxy build, which is super annoying for the other player to deal with and other than that the unit serves no other real purpose. But hey, at least the broadcasters can go: "Rotti build!"
Yeah this patch is in the complete wrong direction, but at least 7 range Hydras is not a thing anymore.
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raven/carrier far too strong when massed
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People or just low league players still complaining about "oh my hidras cannot kill the carriers", ofc not and they are not supposed to, stop that senseless statement. My archons and stalkers cannot kill mass broodlords and they are not supposed to. Keep the hard work blizz! Change timewarp! And buff sentrys (they are no longer good with that cost).
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ADEPT nerf anyone....? not even from a balance perspective but can we agree they are annoying af in their current state? so many buffs and nerfs but ffs why not a reduction of shade time or cooldown. can someone plz shake dk...
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On December 09 2016 21:26 ILoveZest wrote:
People or just low league players still complaining about "oh my hidras cannot kill the carriers", ofc not and they are not supposed to, stop that senseless statement. My archons and stalkers cannot kill mass broodlords and they are not supposed to. Keep the hard work blizz! Change timewarp! And buff sentrys (they are no longer good with that cost).
It is not about hydras, there is nothing that kills mass carriers and it is very common complain in highest level as well.
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IloveZest i think your statement is senseless. I am just mid masters (div 2) i dunno if you consider that as lower league or not (and im t player not z). But what i see in korean games is the same problem.
And to counter your arguments:
1.) if stalkers blink under broodlords you can take them. It works in some situations not always. But you can also outrun broodlords that is the main problem with broodlords on most maps. And this goes not for carriers (especially with MC).
2.) what counters carriers? Tell the z players how they should play? The argument "dont let protoss get to that point" should not be valid. Otherwise the game is poorly designed imo.
3.) With the voidray speed they are a more valid and a strong support vs corruptors.
So protoss air just straight up got buffed.
I think the main problem is the carriers high damageoutput vs everything while interceptors being so cheap.
In a rock paper scissors game there should not be the possibility of massing 1 unit ( of course it also needs support but i think you get the point)
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On December 09 2016 21:26 ILoveZest wrote:
People or just low league players still complaining about "oh my hidras cannot kill the carriers", ofc not and they are not supposed to, stop that senseless statement. My archons and stalkers cannot kill mass broodlords and they are not supposed to. Keep the hard work blizz! Change timewarp! And buff sentrys (they are no longer good with that cost).
thou shaltz switchez onz urz brainzez. now thou shalts realizez:
teching to broodlords takes approximately one (1) century. so zeh protoss can tech to and mass the proper, perfect, protossly counter unit composition, e.g. sum tempests/voids/ht combined with oracle revelation periods of approximately one (1) century.
turtling and teching to carriers, on the other hand (surprisez!), can now be don within quite a short amount of time. and that amount of time, unfortunately, leaves the zerg just so little (like: very little) time to defend against adepts AND oracles AND dts AND tech AND mass to an ok-ish, cost-inefficient, paperboard counter unit composition against carriers.
now thou can switch it back off.
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On December 09 2016 07:01 Hider wrote:
Funny how it took them so long to realize that "fun" micro is related to unit-movement, not pressing buttons for the sake of it.
Now let's get rid of Forcefields and increase cooldowns of Corrosive Bile and Reaper bombs.
I doubt it took them this long, it's just that the Blizzard way ™ is to wait a few years before doing exactly what the community asked lest they look like admitting they were wrong about something.
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I'm disappointed with this patch. Hydra and vipers with nothing to compensate. We don't need to test old hydras. We should already be testing next change to them.
Cyclone change is ok, but they are just better boring unit now. Removal of immortal ability is ok, the buff is stupid.Tempest revert is ok. Another revert is sad, but protoss has already a lot of abilities so I don't mind that as much as long as their supply stays high.
No reaper and mainly carrier change, that's just sad. They could have been working on carriers being good and not broken once massed for long time. It's the easiest unit to change out of whole the SC2.
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Yeah so it's as i feared. Tempests not trade well with thors in ideal thor conditions, but they are flying units so they have the advantage. BS change for the Tempest, or the Thor has to be buffed again....
EDIT: STOP buffing air units Blizzard, please!
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This is really getting out of hand. People seem to think just because a units gets nerfed it is immediately useless.
I also think it is not productive to blame the whole balance of the game on 1-2 units and their interactions and everybody underestimates the importance of maps. On maps with wide open entrances to the nat it is relatively difficult for T to take their nat against adepts or mass lings. But this doesn't immediately apply that adepts and lings are broken. It's a feature of the map and people have to deal with it. A good map is one where T can get an advantage back for living into the next phase of the game. This also doesn't mean T has broken units later. It just balances (!) the initial struggle.
Things are only broken if they are always good, no matter the map layout and no matter what the opponent does. Mass Reapers for example. It is either insanely good or good enough to stay on par with your opponent. Of course you can always derp it, but you never end up in a worse position just because you built the second rax. (Often not even with the third, but that can be local to my regions of the ladder.) Same thing with Protoss' fast expand. You can only get behind by not doing it. On the other hand, Z immediately feels the effect of building one set of lings vs. 3 sets of lings. But these are minor things.
In my oppinion the one and absolutely most broken change, that has ever been done to SC2, was the new economy in LOTV. It was introduced because peo ple felt matches needed to spring into action quicker. All it did was brake the game thorougly. We hat strong 8 10 and 12 minute timings as far back as WOL. Just as there were important events between the 6 and 8 minute mark. These numbers haven't really changed all that much. Remeber, that this was when an in-game minute was less than a wall-clock-time minute. Blizz gave us 12 workers to start out with so that we get to that action faster. On the other hand, they make everything that is not early expanding (not action!) a bad idea. Consequently, the game is slowed down again.
This change completely failed its purpose. Yet, it destroyed 90% of one-base plays, 80% of two-base plays and of course everything in between. The game really only begins when everybody has 2-3 tech trees established. It used to be a big deal when a player established new tech (IMO most visible in ZvZ), but it is not in LOTV. "Getting there" is not a problem anymore for 80% of the tech tree. Maybe Blizz tried to address this, by making the remaining 20% awfully OP, I don't know.
One simple way to address this might be to have 4000 gas in the geysers at the starting location, but have no geysers at the natural expansion. By slowing down gas mining considerably chosing tech and getting tech units gains a lot more importance and it really motivates you to get a third. At the same time you (can) have the large influx of minerals of a second base, which is what actually allows for fast expandions and big bases.
Make tech great again! *scnr*
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I do not recall seeing a patch.
How was it possible to apply these balance changes without a patch?
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On December 10 2016 00:48 paralleluniverse wrote:
I do not recall seeing a patch.
How was it possible to apply these balance changes without a patch?
same, I just suppose it was the fastest patching ever and I was looking somewhere else....
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It was prob. a hotfix, so you dont need to download anything.
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Keep Hydra's 7 range and nerf its flat damage; from 12 to 8(+4, light)
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am i missing something or have i not seen a viper for ages, let alone the use of bc, so lets make this ability like totally pointless
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On December 10 2016 01:10 StatixEx wrote:
am i missing something or have i not seen a viper for ages, let alone the use of bc, so lets make this ability like totally pointless
You haven't seen it because you haven't seen mech, and you haven't seen mech because of that ability.
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On December 10 2016 01:01 Thouhastmail wrote:
Keep Hydra's 7 range and nerf its flat damage; from 12 to 8(+4, light)
then they are incredibly weak in ZvZ. takes a age to kill one overlord or one roach. not to mention about ZvP and ZvT.
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I really hope Hydras are getting either HP buff or reduced cost soon. Otherwise they can't stand as a core unit.
On December 09 2016 07:27 blade55555 wrote:
I wish Blizzard would put Hydra's to 1 supply and nerf stats/cost to compensate. Would be soo nice.
I like this idea
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Where is the Reaper fixes? Mass reaper early game against Zerg has been and still is very imbalanced, if nothing else it's still at the very least high reward low risk.
Oh yea, David Kim watches mass Reaper in early game ZvT and says, "Hell yea, this is what the people want."
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Russian Federation473 Posts
well i keep enjoying playing BCs
run in, kill stuff with yamato, teleport back
repair, recharge, repeat
build up a huge fleet and go in for the kill
seems unstoppable in tvt
very hard to stop as protoss or zerg too
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On December 09 2016 15:35 hiroshOne wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2016 15:23 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 09 2016 13:20 Qwyn wrote:
Why wouldn't they introduce the new hydra buff at the same time?
I don't really want to play against mech/skytoss cancer while having no new tools...The root of all evil is still not being addressed...
The dream is what Blade says...
The reality had better be at least enough HP to survive a liberator shot no matter the upgrades >.>. If I can't use hydras in ZvT after the NEXT "patch-patch" I think I'm done... There are coruptors, vipers, ravagers and hidras with superb mobility. Stop asking for 1a solutions against units that trade ALL of their mobility for fire power. What u're saying is wrong and pretty much funny as u cry since years for a-move AntiAir for mech Terran. LOL And it's clear to me that u never faced Protoss on 3.8 patch while playing Zerg. Also uo forget that hydras are only little bit faster on creep. That's all. Carriers, just when they reach number of 5 are pretty much unstopabble. And knowing this from pro players feedback, Blizzard decides to nerf core midgame antiair unit for Zerg, basically reverting it to the same shit as it was at 3.7. Now. This changes are Huuuuge nerfs for Zerg.
Where were you in 2016 ? Zerg has the lead in the Korean Ladder and the European ladder... I m just asking why people bullshit on Zerg while they dominate 3.7 patch,
ffs fungal burrow is irritating for players, they have to scan each step moving on creep.
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so what do all these changes mean for bunker banks? is it a good time to build or time to salvage?
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On December 10 2016 03:03 The_Last_Terran wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2016 15:35 hiroshOne wrote:On December 09 2016 15:23 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 09 2016 13:20 Qwyn wrote:
Why wouldn't they introduce the new hydra buff at the same time?
I don't really want to play against mech/skytoss cancer while having no new tools...The root of all evil is still not being addressed...
The dream is what Blade says...
The reality had better be at least enough HP to survive a liberator shot no matter the upgrades >.>. If I can't use hydras in ZvT after the NEXT "patch-patch" I think I'm done... There are coruptors, vipers, ravagers and hidras with superb mobility. Stop asking for 1a solutions against units that trade ALL of their mobility for fire power. What u're saying is wrong and pretty much funny as u cry since years for a-move AntiAir for mech Terran. LOL And it's clear to me that u never faced Protoss on 3.8 patch while playing Zerg. Also uo forget that hydras are only little bit faster on creep. That's all. Carriers, just when they reach number of 5 are pretty much unstopabble. And knowing this from pro players feedback, Blizzard decides to nerf core midgame antiair unit for Zerg, basically reverting it to the same shit as it was at 3.7. Now. This changes are Huuuuge nerfs for Zerg. Where were you in 2016 ? Zerg has the lead in the Korean Ladder and the European ladder... I m just asking why people bullshit on Zerg while they dominate 3.7 patch, ffs fungal burrow is irritating for players, they have to scan each step moving on creep.
Zerg was non existant on Korean Ladder this year. In Europe yes. But in Korea Zerg was dead race. So i wonder where have u been this whole year to make so bs statements.
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Dark, SOlar... do u know ?
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Just remove hydras and let ravagers have anti air. Also be lair tech. For a 100/100 unit, they are not efficient unless you hit biles. You can remove hydra den and put in lurker den also. All these changes to hydras is just going to make it a modified roach with anti air.
Ravagers are fast enugh witg 6 range and a little less hp (conpared to roach) it can easily replace hydra by giving it aa. And for 100/100, people are more willing to take that trade. Not to mention they are 3 supply if i remember correctly.
Edit: or just keep everything the same and give a lair upgrade for AA. Cause you know. 3 rax reaper.
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On December 09 2016 22:43 SpecKROELLchen wrote:
2.) what counters carriers? Tell the z players how they should play? The argument "dont let protoss get to that point" should not be valid. Otherwise the game is poorly designed imo.
I don't really agree, it wouldn't be so much a problem if getting to that point you needed 5++ base, but that is clearly not the case at the moment, it is way too easy to get carrier and that is the actual problem.
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On December 10 2016 04:27 CrayonSc2 wrote:
Just remove hydras and let ravagers have anti air. Also be lair tech. For a 100/100 unit, they are not efficient unless you hit biles. You can remove hydra den and put in lurker den also. All these changes to hydras is just going to make it a modified roach with anti air.
Ravagers are fast enugh witg 6 range and a little less hp (conpared to roach) it can easily replace hydra by giving it aa. And for 100/100, people are more willing to take that trade. Not to mention they are 3 supply if i remember correctly.
Edit: or just keep everything the same and give a lair upgrade for AA. Cause you know. 3 rax reaper.
This is a really good idea imo (although I doubt blizzard will do this). I always felt that sc2 Zerg was all over the place and that's because of the Roach. Blizzard wanted to add the Roach, but the hydras were iconic so they kept them in as well. What if Roaches evolved into Ravagers that can shoot air OR into the lurkers. Have ravagers be a lair requirement, and lurkers be a lair requirement that require the roach warren to morph into a lurker den first.
When sc1 transitioned into BW, Blizzard gave each races units that would help them overcome their weaknesses. But with SC2, it's just random units that had a "wow cool!!!" factor that seems all over the place. I don't know, Zerg units just doesn't seem to synergize well to me. Let's not forget about the Corruptors... can we re-design this unit?
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It's just like 2010 again, protoss air unbeatable and mech forcing broodlords queens spores.
We just have to wait another 5 years and they'll make zerg better.
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On December 10 2016 05:24 phodacbiet wrote:
Zerg units just doesn't seem to synergize well to me. Let's not forget about the Corruptors... can we re-design this unit?
Why don t you change race ? You are still able to try Terran or Protoss to know if they have more synergy...
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On December 10 2016 03:03 The_Last_Terran wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2016 15:35 hiroshOne wrote:On December 09 2016 15:23 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 09 2016 13:20 Qwyn wrote:
Why wouldn't they introduce the new hydra buff at the same time?
I don't really want to play against mech/skytoss cancer while having no new tools...The root of all evil is still not being addressed...
The dream is what Blade says...
The reality had better be at least enough HP to survive a liberator shot no matter the upgrades >.>. If I can't use hydras in ZvT after the NEXT "patch-patch" I think I'm done... There are coruptors, vipers, ravagers and hidras with superb mobility. Stop asking for 1a solutions against units that trade ALL of their mobility for fire power. What u're saying is wrong and pretty much funny as u cry since years for a-move AntiAir for mech Terran. LOL And it's clear to me that u never faced Protoss on 3.8 patch while playing Zerg. Also uo forget that hydras are only little bit faster on creep. That's all. Carriers, just when they reach number of 5 are pretty much unstopabble. And knowing this from pro players feedback, Blizzard decides to nerf core midgame antiair unit for Zerg, basically reverting it to the same shit as it was at 3.7. Now. This changes are Huuuuge nerfs for Zerg. Where were you in 2016 ? Zerg has the lead in the Korean Ladder and the European ladder... I m just asking why people bullshit on Zerg while they dominate 3.7 patch, ffs fungal burrow is irritating for players, they have to scan each step moving on creep.
They could also make Raven. Or it's to hard for ppl queueing MMM on their production facilities?
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On December 10 2016 04:00 The_Last_Terran wrote:
..
Dark, SOlar... do u know ?
Yeah i know. Just watch some 2016 Proleague. Zergs weren't even uncluded in setups. No coach would risk. LOL
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Man the few games I've played already I really miss 7 range hydras...
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On December 10 2016 06:07 The_Last_Terran wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2016 05:24 phodacbiet wrote:
Zerg units just doesn't seem to synergize well to me. Let's not forget about the Corruptors... can we re-design this unit? Why don t you change race ? You are still able to try Terran or Protoss to know if they have more synergy...
Because me switching race doesn't make Zerg units synergize well...?
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lol so many people crying about op mass hydras and win being taken away like lmao the amount of games that were won just by massing hydra is hillarious. also hydras always good pvz how are you gonna buff them and not break the matchup and also 25% faster on creep is a little? LOL dont dimiss that buff gives hydra way easier time to split vs aoe as well as run away from fights, reinforce faster etc.. i wish protoss player would whine as much as zergs ...
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On December 10 2016 01:01 PinoKotsBeer wrote:
It was prob. a hotfix, so you dont need to download anything.
If you look at the old replays, they still use the old balance but are in the current version and don't require loading an old version.
If all balance changes can be done this way, then that would mean in the future we shouldn't need to load an old version to watch old replays.
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On December 10 2016 01:25 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2016 01:10 StatixEx wrote:
am i missing something or have i not seen a viper for ages, let alone the use of bc, so lets make this ability like totally pointless You haven't seen it because you haven't seen mech, and you haven't seen mech because of that ability.
Exactly and very well replied
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On December 10 2016 21:11 bObA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2016 01:25 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 10 2016 01:10 StatixEx wrote:
am i missing something or have i not seen a viper for ages, let alone the use of bc, so lets make this ability like totally pointless You haven't seen it because you haven't seen mech, and you haven't seen mech because of that ability. Exactly and very well replied
and the sad part is that they buff the tank then immediatly nerf blinding cloud which should tell every zerg that the ability was ridiculous in the past when tanks only did 50dmg and the ability was 11 seconds
i mean look at the criticisms and ad hominems i receive calling me biased for saying that the ability was too strong back in hots, and now we get 85 dmg siege tanks and a 40% time reduction on blinding cloud, and its still too strong for most...
mech has just not been played by non mech gods who devote all their time to the style, so when casuals do it you get to see the immense skill it takes to mech it happen™
it is still so powerful most people wont be able to play mech or wont want to, thats the hilarious part, it is too strong depending on what leagues you are balancing for, until you hit diamond/master i wouldnt even attempt mech due to how hard a counter blinding cloud + broods and parasitic bomb are to mech, i do not see plats or below making ghosts to counter the vipers on top of having to manage their mech army just right for anti air/ground...
and then there is invincible nydus which has not even been adressed due to how rare it has been seen, thats going to get nerfed next.
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On December 10 2016 21:32 FoxDog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2016 21:11 bObA wrote:On December 10 2016 01:25 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 10 2016 01:10 StatixEx wrote:
am i missing something or have i not seen a viper for ages, let alone the use of bc, so lets make this ability like totally pointless You haven't seen it because you haven't seen mech, and you haven't seen mech because of that ability. Exactly and very well replied i mean look at the criticisms and ad hominems i receive calling me biased for saying that the ability was too strong back in hots, and now we get 85 dmg siege tanks and a 40% time reduction on blinding cloud, and its still too strong for most...
SC2 engagements are fast,so while 40% looks huge if its still long enough to roll over the army it's not really a nerf at all. The tanks still don't fire. Mech still isn't all that viable as long as there are vipers and the ability to click on the tanks.
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I just need to fully commit to quitting Protoss and playing Terran, because I'm always so disappointed with the balance changes. I'm sure I'm a bit biased, but it seems like Protoss is an afterthought in the recent balance changes. It feels like Blizzard is busy buffing Zerg/Terran to deal with eachother, and then addressing random anti-Protoss concerns from 6-12 months ago.
What I take from that, is there's a lot more advocates with experience playing Terran/Zerg - like they have lobbyists and Protoss doesn't. Maybe that's just the vibe I get from forums and Twitch chat, though.
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wow there's still hope about the balance.
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i have no idea why so many zergs whine over here. foreginer zergs stil wins korean terrans. as long its that and not the other way around, they should shut it.
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Zergs are used to having only 4 diffrent units with main anti-Air being queen vs Terrran.
Mutas make this MU much better. New maps offer almost free mapcontrol to zergs willing NOT to drone up to 70 before making more than 10 lings. You can deny bases, smash down attacks..but zerg lacks the will to adept.
Honestly if I see Zergs still
1) Trying to defend reapers with Zerglings, instead of going 4-6 Roaches (Ling defense only works against bad terrans)
2) not making a spire, but make queens
3) Morph any amount of banelings vs Archons (U S E L E S S)
4) Never runby, never flank
5) Go "bad supply" (roach Ravager) every game....not having an attack plan..
They do not deserve o cry about getting punished.
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On December 10 2016 10:00 SwiftRH wrote:
lol so many people crying about op mass hydras and win being taken away like lmao the amount of games that were won just by massing hydra is hillarious. also hydras always good pvz how are you gonna buff them and not break the matchup and also 25% faster on creep is a little? LOL dont dimiss that buff gives hydra way easier time to split vs aoe as well as run away from fights, reinforce faster etc.. i wish protoss player would whine as much as zergs ...
Storm.
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On December 11 2016 20:21 MiCroLiFe wrote:
i have no idea why so many zergs whine over here. foreginer zergs stil wins korean terrans. as long its that and not the other way around, they should shut it.
Pros can win with zerg, so everything it's fine.
Pros don't use mech, we need complain to blizzard about it.
#terranlogic
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On December 11 2016 20:27 KT_Elwood wrote:
Zergs are used to having only 4 diffrent units with main anti-Air being queen vs Terrran.
Mutas make this MU much better. New maps offer almost free mapcontrol to zergs willing NOT to drone up to 70 before making more than 10 lings. You can deny bases, smash down attacks..but zerg lacks the will to adept.
Honestly if I see Zergs still
1) Trying to defend reapers with Zerglings, instead of going 4-6 Roaches (Ling defense only works against bad terrans)
2) not making a spire, but make queens
3) Morph any amount of banelings vs Archons (U S E L E S S)
4) Never runby, never flank
5) Go "bad supply" (roach Ravager) every game....not having an attack plan..
They do not deserve o cry about getting punished.
I guess you should be hired as Dark's coach then.
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On December 11 2016 21:09 xTJx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2016 20:21 MiCroLiFe wrote:
i have no idea why so many zergs whine over here. foreginer zergs stil wins korean terrans. as long its that and not the other way around, they should shut it. Pros can win with zerg, so everything it's fine. Pros don't use mech, we need complain to blizzard about it. #terranlogic i think you missunderstood. first off. zerg is way easyer to play and have much more easy way for the victory in the game. remember Life? what he played like? constantly harassing and aktive on map. thats how we terran Have to do in order to win. zerg can sit there and deffend, which is pretty easy.
second. Mech? i cant stand mech. its slow, its bad, its boring.
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I'm glad that they're trying to make the cyclone viable. But that air lockon feels so useless though...i havent been able to reliably kill air units...
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nerf fungal! terran is always busy making two medevac..there is no time to make a single raven 
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On December 10 2016 06:55 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Man the few games I've played already I really miss 7 range hydras...
7 range hydras was the most fun I've ever had with SC2. I finally had a unit I could use without sending it to die every attack.
Compared to right now, where it's back to horrible ol' ling bane, hope your opponent sucks.
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On December 11 2016 21:24 MiCroLiFe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2016 21:09 xTJx wrote:On December 11 2016 20:21 MiCroLiFe wrote:
i have no idea why so many zergs whine over here. foreginer zergs stil wins korean terrans. as long its that and not the other way around, they should shut it. Pros can win with zerg, so everything it's fine. Pros don't use mech, we need complain to blizzard about it. #terranlogic i think you missunderstood. first off. zerg is way easyer to play and have much more easy way for the victory in the game. remember Life? what he played like? constantly harassing and aktive on map. thats how we terran Have to do in order to win. zerg can sit there and deffend, which is pretty easy.
What?? You're ridiculous.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/blog_header/vv/VVKA6LVZUA0Y1448482273038.jpg)
