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On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone
There's a difference between "good" and "too good".
Zerg has plenty of good units. The viper in its current state is too good against terran mech and air.
because of its strength the raven needed to be buffed again and now tvz lategame is all about massing OP spellcasters.
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On December 03 2016 21:52 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone There's a difference between "good" and "too good". Zerg has plenty of good units. The viper in its current state is too good against terran mech and air. because of its strength the raven needed to be buffed again and now tvz lategame is all about massing OP spellcasters.
Can you name me two good units? We are getting rekt by anything in lategame...
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Colossus +light damage (current thinking is 12 +4 light)
If something's broken... break it more.
Viper
We’d like to discuss a couple possibilities: nerfing the duration of Blinding Cloud vs. reducing the range of Abduct. Please give us your thoughts in this area.
Why not both? How about hard-nerfing Consume? I guess it's against the Blizzard design guidelines for Zerg: "there should be plenty of free stuff".
Demotions on ladder this season
Anyone with half a brain could have predicted the MMR break as a result of the 3-race ladder system deployment. Not Blizzard tho.
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On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone
You are without hesitation the best zerg foreigner, and probably the best foreigner, but that's really not fair no to admit Vipers are way too powerful.
All of the 3 casts they have are super useful and too effective.
Blizzard want to make mech viable again ? They have to nerf vipers for sure.
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On December 03 2016 19:17 FoxDog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2016 19:01 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 03 2016 04:38 Musicus wrote:
I'm not too sure about these changes, but sure let's test things. I just don't want to see too much Colossus and mech play.
Nerf the viper all you want, I don't like the unit at all! Still, reducing the abduct range would be bad because it would affect fighting vs air armies too. So it would be much better to nerf blinding cloud instead in my opinion. But if you nerf viper you will see more mech, mass colo and mass carrier. PB are uneffective vs capital ship, and abduct barely useful. Actually, zerg can't kill the golden skytoss with their units when P reach a point of invincible deathball. It will nerf viper you encourage T/P to camp and make their deathball. Mech is 100% unviable atm for people who are not gm/highmaster who main mech, you can literally not play mech on the ladder because of how good vipers are and this is not up for debate, mech players have to avoid lategame or suffer an instant loss, this is entirely unbalanced in zergs favor and the fact you dont see this is worrysome.
there is a grain of truth in this comment for Diamond players.
my mech game is weaker now. i'm in Diamond and usually i can get into Tier 1 and top 10; now i am stuck at the top of Tier 3. if they can buff mech great. "unviable" is an arbitrary label. maybe "Mech" was OP when i was using it to get to the top of diamond.
i just like rolling with 12+ Tanks. its fun. i might have a higher rank and "be a better player" if i did other stuff. however, getting into Masters really isn't that important to me. i like watching shit blow up and units fly across the screen as my Tanks bomb my enemy into the 19th century.
i don't think its Blizzard's responsibility to "balance" my "shits and giggles" playstyle into becoming a serious competitive threat.
On December 03 2016 18:29 JackONeill wrote:
At least they're on the right path. Nerfing the gamebreaking caster instead of the very strong (arguably OP) core unit is the better choice
+1, yes, i agree.
some guy named JackONeill on the BNet forums recommended experimenting with a 10 ( +6 to light ) Colossus. That would be interesting to see and a worthy experiment.
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On December 03 2016 22:53 bObA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone You are without hesitation the best zerg foreigner, and probably the best foreigner, but that's really not fair no to admit Vipers are way too powerful. All of the 3 casts they have are super useful and too effective. Blizzard want to make mech viable again ? They have to nerf vipers for sure.
Spellcasters of protoss like HT/Oracle are already more powerful than Viper so if you want to nerf Viper then why not nerf those too
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Nerf burrow fungal. its broken
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On December 04 2016 00:49 Nerchio wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2016 22:53 bObA wrote:On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone You are without hesitation the best zerg foreigner, and probably the best foreigner, but that's really not fair no to admit Vipers are way too powerful. All of the 3 casts they have are super useful and too effective. Blizzard want to make mech viable again ? They have to nerf vipers for sure. Spellcasters of protoss like HT/Oracle are already more powerful than Viper so if you want to nerf Viper then why not nerf those too
Because they don't singlehandedly invalidate mech in the matchup? XD
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On December 04 2016 01:28 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2016 00:49 Nerchio wrote:On December 03 2016 22:53 bObA wrote:On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone You are without hesitation the best zerg foreigner, and probably the best foreigner, but that's really not fair no to admit Vipers are way too powerful. All of the 3 casts they have are super useful and too effective. Blizzard want to make mech viable again ? They have to nerf vipers for sure. Spellcasters of protoss like HT/Oracle are already more powerful than Viper so if you want to nerf Viper then why not nerf those too Because they don't singlehandedly invalidate mech in the matchup? XD
How does viper invalidate mech? You can play it just fine but you can't just sit there thinking you are unbreakable. We had that in Heart of the swarm and that was stupid as hell
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Man what happened to Bizzard? They are always on track nowdays with both great changes and great communication. Long may it last.
I feel the passion coming strong 
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On December 04 2016 01:45 Nerchio wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2016 01:28 JackONeill wrote:On December 04 2016 00:49 Nerchio wrote:On December 03 2016 22:53 bObA wrote:On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone You are without hesitation the best zerg foreigner, and probably the best foreigner, but that's really not fair no to admit Vipers are way too powerful. All of the 3 casts they have are super useful and too effective. Blizzard want to make mech viable again ? They have to nerf vipers for sure. Spellcasters of protoss like HT/Oracle are already more powerful than Viper so if you want to nerf Viper then why not nerf those too Because they don't singlehandedly invalidate mech in the matchup? XD How does viper invalidate mech? You can play it just fine but you can't just sit there thinking you are unbreakable. We had that in Heart of the swarm and that was stupid as hell
Why the hell can people not grasp this? Even if Vipers are teetering on overbearing what are they really overbearing against? Mass unbreakable tank lines that without Blinding Cloud is unbeatable? Mass cancer Ravens where without PB and abduct there is no fighting it?
You know, crazy thought here and all, I'm sure I'll receive a flame or two but...
You can micro your tanks so that they aren't sieged in a giant blob where 1 Cloud disables 8 of them...Contrary to popular belief, mech requires very high apm and micro to make work. You should be punished for poor unit positioning, tanks in their current form are incredibly powerful vs ground units so their counters need to be strong or mech will just be broken.
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On December 03 2016 22:53 bObA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone You are without hesitation the best zerg foreigner, and probably the best foreigner, but that's really not fair no to admit Vipers are way too powerful. All of the 3 casts they have are super useful and too effective. Blizzard want to make mech viable again ? They have to nerf vipers for sure.
Infestors are super useful and too effective? 3? Are we really calling Queens too effective? hahaha
O__o..
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On December 04 2016 01:45 Nerchio wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2016 01:28 JackONeill wrote:On December 04 2016 00:49 Nerchio wrote:On December 03 2016 22:53 bObA wrote:On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone You are without hesitation the best zerg foreigner, and probably the best foreigner, but that's really not fair no to admit Vipers are way too powerful. All of the 3 casts they have are super useful and too effective. Blizzard want to make mech viable again ? They have to nerf vipers for sure. Spellcasters of protoss like HT/Oracle are already more powerful than Viper so if you want to nerf Viper then why not nerf those too Because they don't singlehandedly invalidate mech in the matchup? XD How does viper invalidate mech? You can play it just fine but you can't just sit there thinking you are unbreakable. We had that in Heart of the swarm and that was stupid as hell Mech isnt viable at all, the only way to beat viper in any unit compo is to use ghost perfectly
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On December 04 2016 02:55 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2016 22:53 bObA wrote:On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone You are without hesitation the best zerg foreigner, and probably the best foreigner, but that's really not fair no to admit Vipers are way too powerful. All of the 3 casts they have are super useful and too effective. Blizzard want to make mech viable again ? They have to nerf vipers for sure. Infestors are super useful and too effective? 3? Are we really calling Queens too effective? hahaha O__o..
Casts as in spells. Not casters.
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On December 04 2016 02:52 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2016 01:45 Nerchio wrote:On December 04 2016 01:28 JackONeill wrote:On December 04 2016 00:49 Nerchio wrote:On December 03 2016 22:53 bObA wrote:On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone You are without hesitation the best zerg foreigner, and probably the best foreigner, but that's really not fair no to admit Vipers are way too powerful. All of the 3 casts they have are super useful and too effective. Blizzard want to make mech viable again ? They have to nerf vipers for sure. Spellcasters of protoss like HT/Oracle are already more powerful than Viper so if you want to nerf Viper then why not nerf those too Because they don't singlehandedly invalidate mech in the matchup? XD How does viper invalidate mech? You can play it just fine but you can't just sit there thinking you are unbreakable. We had that in Heart of the swarm and that was stupid as hell Why the hell can people not grasp this? Even if Vipers are teetering on overbearing what are they really overbearing against? Mass unbreakable tank lines that without Blinding Cloud is unbeatable? Mass cancer Ravens where without PB and abduct there is no fighting it? You know, crazy thought here and all, I'm sure I'll receive a flame or two but... You can micro your tanks so that they aren't sieged in a giant blob where 1 Cloud disables 8 of them...Contrary to popular belief, mech requires very high apm and micro to make work. You should be punished for poor unit positioning, tanks in their current form are incredibly powerful vs ground units so their counters need to be strong or mech will just be broken. its a reason no pro player play mech. it dosnt work. you dont get to the late comp you wwant, and if you do, zerg have taken whole map while you have 3-4
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On December 04 2016 02:57 MiCroLiFe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2016 02:52 Beelzebub1 wrote:On December 04 2016 01:45 Nerchio wrote:On December 04 2016 01:28 JackONeill wrote:On December 04 2016 00:49 Nerchio wrote:On December 03 2016 22:53 bObA wrote:On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone You are without hesitation the best zerg foreigner, and probably the best foreigner, but that's really not fair no to admit Vipers are way too powerful. All of the 3 casts they have are super useful and too effective. Blizzard want to make mech viable again ? They have to nerf vipers for sure. Spellcasters of protoss like HT/Oracle are already more powerful than Viper so if you want to nerf Viper then why not nerf those too Because they don't singlehandedly invalidate mech in the matchup? XD How does viper invalidate mech? You can play it just fine but you can't just sit there thinking you are unbreakable. We had that in Heart of the swarm and that was stupid as hell Why the hell can people not grasp this? Even if Vipers are teetering on overbearing what are they really overbearing against? Mass unbreakable tank lines that without Blinding Cloud is unbeatable? Mass cancer Ravens where without PB and abduct there is no fighting it? You know, crazy thought here and all, I'm sure I'll receive a flame or two but... You can micro your tanks so that they aren't sieged in a giant blob where 1 Cloud disables 8 of them...Contrary to popular belief, mech requires very high apm and micro to make work. You should be punished for poor unit positioning, tanks in their current form are incredibly powerful vs ground units so their counters need to be strong or mech will just be broken. its a reason no pro player play mech. it dosnt work. you dont get to the late comp you wwant, and if you do, zerg have taken whole map while you have 3-4
But there is lots of styles that are sub optimal to play at the tip top level that work just fine at any level before that (which is about 99.9% of players) like Roach/Hydra/Viper (sucks still even with super Hydralisks), all robo or all Stargate (cancer style imo) is generally not viable. I understand that Terran is tired of playing bio I reall do, I'm kind of bored watching it. I'm hoping they will bring bio mech back in full as I thought that yielded the best ZvT games (marine/tank vs LBM) but making mech imba by buffing everything and nerfing everything that can fight it isn't the way to do it.
Mech sucks because SC players think that mech has to be mass defensive tank mech which was truly nerfed when the new economy system was implemented, it has little to do with unit on unit interactions and everything to do with map design and economy.
Mech is gas intensive and it's pretty damn mineral heavy as well, so you need lots of bases. Problem is that bases mine out extremely quickly, between harassment from the non Terran and MULES stripping expansions in minutes, mech is forced to spread out and have thin defensive lines, which is an inherent critical weakness of mech in the first place. As long as the economy system is this way tank based turtle mech styles will be weak because mobility is king in SC2.
The only reason BW tank mech was so good is because Vultures were so fast and Spider Mines so good at holding multiple territories at a time that mech COULD spread out a bit, by the time the enemy wades through the mine fields you can have tanks and Science Vessels in position. Tanks were powerful in BW for sure, but mech itself was only viable because the Vultures compensated for a critical weakness in mech that Hellions and Banshees just do not in SC2, and that is allowing mech to have a lightning fast raider/defender that could hold ground through Spider Mine fields.
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On December 04 2016 02:57 MiCroLiFe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2016 02:52 Beelzebub1 wrote:On December 04 2016 01:45 Nerchio wrote:On December 04 2016 01:28 JackONeill wrote:On December 04 2016 00:49 Nerchio wrote:On December 03 2016 22:53 bObA wrote:On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone You are without hesitation the best zerg foreigner, and probably the best foreigner, but that's really not fair no to admit Vipers are way too powerful. All of the 3 casts they have are super useful and too effective. Blizzard want to make mech viable again ? They have to nerf vipers for sure. Spellcasters of protoss like HT/Oracle are already more powerful than Viper so if you want to nerf Viper then why not nerf those too Because they don't singlehandedly invalidate mech in the matchup? XD How does viper invalidate mech? You can play it just fine but you can't just sit there thinking you are unbreakable. We had that in Heart of the swarm and that was stupid as hell Why the hell can people not grasp this? Even if Vipers are teetering on overbearing what are they really overbearing against? Mass unbreakable tank lines that without Blinding Cloud is unbeatable? Mass cancer Ravens where without PB and abduct there is no fighting it? You know, crazy thought here and all, I'm sure I'll receive a flame or two but... You can micro your tanks so that they aren't sieged in a giant blob where 1 Cloud disables 8 of them...Contrary to popular belief, mech requires very high apm and micro to make work. You should be punished for poor unit positioning, tanks in their current form are incredibly powerful vs ground units so their counters need to be strong or mech will just be broken. its a reason no pro player play mech. it dosnt work. you dont get to the late comp you wwant, and if you do, zerg have taken whole map while you have 3-4
You end up with 3 or 4 bases if all your plan is building the invincible army while doing nothing else.
This is boring to watch, boring to play against and in my opinion it is also boring to play.
But in this patch mech was given tools not only for a slow but strong army, but also tools for a mobile and annoying army (early speed banshees, cyclones, etc). Utilize both and you can be active on the map while making your army at home. Or even invest in another rax, stim, some marines, and be active on the map while making a mech army at home (factories, upgrades, etc).
I think that was Nechios point about a viable mech without sitting there and thinking you were unbreakable,
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On December 03 2016 22:46 PharaphobiaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2016 21:52 Charoisaur wrote:On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone There's a difference between "good" and "too good". Zerg has plenty of good units. The viper in its current state is too good against terran mech and air. because of its strength the raven needed to be buffed again and now tvz lategame is all about massing OP spellcasters. Can you name me two good units? We are getting rekt by anything in lategame...
If you don't think zerg has any good units I won't be able to convince you otherwise so I don't even bother.
Btw terran has no good units and protoss has no good units.
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On December 04 2016 03:40 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2016 22:46 PharaphobiaSC wrote:On December 03 2016 21:52 Charoisaur wrote:On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone There's a difference between "good" and "too good". Zerg has plenty of good units. The viper in its current state is too good against terran mech and air. because of its strength the raven needed to be buffed again and now tvz lategame is all about massing OP spellcasters. Can you name me two good units? We are getting rekt by anything in lategame... If you don't think zerg has any good units I won't be able to convince you otherwise so I don't even bother. Btw terran has no good units and protoss has no good units.
Yea not sure what that guy is talking about, Zerg certainly isn't suffering from having alot of non viable units at the moment, burrow Fungal seems very strong vs parade pushes and the Infestor has been the neutered dog in Zerg's arsenal for awhile now.
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EPT
