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usopsama
6502 Posts
On December 03 2016 06:29 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: Oh the carnage! Imagine an armada of buildings floating above a massive terran army! It would be suffocating! Cheese your opponents by doing a barrack-landing rush on their workers. | ||
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
I agree that Vipers being an all purpose unit for dealing with mech is kind of ludicrous but that's a design issue not a balance one. Without vipers Zerg could NEVER deal with mech or skyterran in any sort of effective way, especially after this weird ass raven buff they've put in. If you nerf abduct range especially, be prepared to see turtle mech out of every single Terran every single TvZ. | ||
Liquid`Snute
Norway839 Posts
Modifying damage to 12+4 light is so extreme, what about +2 vs light damage and take it from there? I would also bring Interceptor cost up to 10 (at least). It trades too well at max and killing interceptors isn't even an option now. Only to win by the no-interceptors-left-push-forward condition. Carrier should spawn with 8 interceptors too because they are too weak initially. You already spent a century building the thing so it should spawn with 8. Gravaton catapult upgrade should be removed and launch fire rate should be put somewhere betwen before and after upgrades. For defensive purposes, carriers should be able to build interceptors faster, especially if you reduce the launch fire rate I think this would help battles become more fair. Carrier strength is too binary. About Viper. It HAS TO stay strong for Zerg to be able to defeat mech especially on medium size maps such as overgrowth. Tweaking values won't change the fact that zerg is doing one of these: - Attacking head on with a big sky zerg/viper/transfuse based army, bursting out all spells - Taking small hit and run trades using viper spells and Consume continously (combos well with swarm host) Simply nerfing the viper abilities won't solve the identity crisis of the viper. The unit by design is created to be in one of those modes and consume ENCOURAGES hit and run/over time play. If you remove that, you force straight up fights and thus possibly stale board state up until the point of combat. What do they want? A mobile hit and run ninja unit, or a big support caster for grand broodlord/corruptor/infestor viper? Because right now there is no doubt that Mass Raven destroys sky-zerg and that Mass Viper/Hydra/Swarmhost kill-them-before-they-get-there taking free trades is better. I do think Terran lategame is stronger than Zerg but it's impossible for them to reach that stage. So one should work on fixing both. | ||
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
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DeadByDawn
United Kingdom476 Posts
If you nerf BC duration then my sieged tanks will still all die as the Zerg will have made up the distance to them in seconds. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On December 03 2016 06:35 Liquid`Snute wrote: Can't colossus start with 7 range instead of 6? What about trimming off 15-20% of thermal lance time? Modifying damage to 12+4 light is so extreme, what about +2 vs light damage and take it from there? I would also bring Interceptor cost up to 10 (at least). It trades too well at max and killing interceptors isn't even an option now. Only to win by the no-interceptors-left-push-forward condition. Carrier should spawn with 8 interceptors too because they are too weak initially. You already spent a century building the thing so it should spawn with 8. Gravaton catapult upgrade should be removed and launch fire rate should be put somewhere betwen before and after upgrades. For defensive purposes, carriers should be able to build interceptors faster, especially if you reduce the launch fire rate I think this would help battles become more fair. Carrier strength is too binary. About Viper. It HAS TO stay strong for Zerg to be able to defeat mech especially on medium size maps such as overgrowth. Tweaking values won't change the fact that zerg is doing one of these: - Attacking head on with a big sky zerg/viper/transfuse based army, bursting out all spells - Taking small hit and run trades using viper spells and Consume continously (combos well with swarm host) Simply nerfing the viper abilities won't solve the identity crisis of the viper. The unit by design is created to be in one of those modes and consume ENCOURAGES hit and run/over time play. If you remove that, you force straight up fights and thus possibly stale board state up until the point of combat. What do they want? A mobile hit and run ninja unit, or a big support caster for grand broodlord/corruptor/infestor viper? Because right now there is no doubt that Mass Raven destroys sky-zerg and that Mass Viper/Hydra/Swarmhost kill-them-before-they-get-there taking free trades is better. I do think Terran lategame is stronger than Zerg but it's impossible for them to reach that stage. So one should work on fixing both. Viper has been OP for years now. If anything parasitic bomb made it god tier and should never have been added because it makes vikings useless as a counter. Honestly both vipers and ravens needed to have their supply increased to around 4 years ago. These units are too cost efficient and the issue is when you get 10+ of either of them they take over the entire game. Making them cost more supply means you'd be able to get less of them in a maxed out army. TBH let's just all be real here - they are scapegoating random units now because they don't want to admit they made a massive mistake with the hydra, swarmhost, and infestor buffs. These units are at absurd levels of imbalance right now. Rather than make more problems by buffing collosus and nerfing vipers, they should revert all of the ridiculous Zerg changes they made and just admit they were wrong and made a mistake. Too bad we know that won't happen. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
But if zerg gets underpowered as snute says, then change raven as well. Even if zerg doesnt get underpowered i would like raven changed anyway, its not a fun unit nor has ever been. The raven unit should feel more like a support unit. Both raven and viper should feel more interactive imo, when viper abducts right now its not as interactive as it can be, its only pre-abduct its interactive which feels rather lame. Some other suggestion i have on top of my head, perhaps when roaches burrow they get some durability for 1second against attacks that do alot of damage such as siege tanks. Note iam not playing the game nor have i for long time. But if things improve with the gameplay i might actually pick up the game again and play it hardcore... To many things that are unfun atm. | ||
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PharaphobiaSC
Czech Republic457 Posts
On December 03 2016 07:20 avilo wrote: Viper has been OP for years now. If anything parasitic bomb made it god tier and should never have been added because it makes vikings useless as a counter. Honestly both vipers and ravens needed to have their supply increased to around 4 years ago. These units are too cost efficient and the issue is when you get 10+ of either of them they take over the entire game. Making them cost more supply means you'd be able to get less of them in a maxed out army. TBH let's just all be real here - they are scapegoating random units now because they don't want to admit they made a massive mistake with the hydra, swarmhost, and infestor buffs. These units are at absurd levels of imbalance right now. Rather than make more problems by buffing collosus and nerfing vipers, they should revert all of the ridiculous Zerg changes they made and just admit they were wrong and made a mistake. Too bad we know that won't happen. It's publicly known that unless you que the game and autowin that you always will bring these balance wall of texts which leads to nowhere. There is many many games where terran reach that state of mass raven i saw at least 10+ today on zerg streams  ) At first Blizzard should adress and remove turtle "strategic" style of the game, if you want things to be mobile thats okay, but games where 30 minutes is only about building turrets and keep zerg home with random harras with banshees and helion cyclone is NOT fun at all.. because u know u play against time clock. Also how come viper is that "godtier" unit since u can easly snipe it with raven, viking, lib sky combo? or just build turrets? This game should be fast paced not "build defensive units and slowly push zerg to state where he has no unit comp to win... | ||
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Jett.Jack.Alvir
Canada2250 Posts
I like the idea of caster vs caster, but I don't think ravens and vipers are as balanced as HT and ghosts. Both might need adjustments to get the game balanced. | ||
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
On December 03 2016 06:35 Liquid`Snute wrote: Can't colossus start with 7 range instead of 6? What about trimming off 15-20% of thermal lance time? Modifying damage to 12+4 light is so extreme, what about +2 vs light damage and take it from there? I would also bring Interceptor cost up to 10 (at least). It trades too well at max and killing interceptors isn't even an option now. Only to win by the no-interceptors-left-push-forward condition. Carrier should spawn with 8 interceptors too because they are too weak initially. You already spent a century building the thing so it should spawn with 8. Gravaton catapult upgrade should be removed and launch fire rate should be put somewhere betwen before and after upgrades. For defensive purposes, carriers should be able to build interceptors faster, especially if you reduce the launch fire rate I think this would help battles become more fair. Carrier strength is too binary. About Viper. It HAS TO stay strong for Zerg to be able to defeat mech especially on medium size maps such as overgrowth. I guess using the parasite bomb to kill the interceptors does not work? I know you can't target the interceptors with it, but at around the release of LoTV I was messing around by launching the parasite bomb on the carier and getting the corruptor at very close range of the carriers, the interceptors get caught in the AOE of the parasite bomb and it was working fairly well, but I guess that's not going to work at higher level. ^^ | ||
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_AK
5 Posts
A big motif with mech TvZ is that the Terran is all but invincible until vipers come out...thus necessitating their use. At that point, the roles reverse and the Zerg starts taking over. How about making mech more versatile and skill-based, so that the strength of the Terran force is dependent on talent, rather than just sitting in one spot with a huge, unbreakable wall? The mech force would still be as powerful as ever in the right hands, but not automatically just because a critical mass was built. This would also directly devalue the use of vipers, as the Zerg would be able to fight back in the midgame, without them. Most importantly, this would make the matchup more fun for BOTH races, as the strength of either force would be dependent on skill and strategy, rather than who happens to have what unit at what time. Oh, and be more exciting to watch! I don't believe winning should depend so heavily on units, but rather strategy. Each unit composition should be as strong or weak as its user. These ideas would obviously require several changes to units, but I'm just trying to make this more fun and even for everyone. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada18040 Posts
On December 03 2016 07:20 avilo wrote: TBH let's just all be real here - they are scapegoating random units now because they don't want to admit they made a massive mistake with the hydra, swarmhost, and infestor buffs. These units are at absurd levels of imbalance right now. Rather than make more problems by buffing collosus and nerfing vipers, they should revert all of the ridiculous Zerg changes they made and just admit they were wrong and made a mistake. let's "pay attention to outcomes"; your projection of total zerg dominance did not come to fruition at IEM. if you made very accurate projections then i'd listen to you more. On December 03 2016 05:58 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: Interesting proposal, swapping abduct for NP, but that would make infestors very good at eliminating key units all by themselves. A hit squad of 4-5 infestors can single handedly take out tanks or key strategically positioned units. All they would have to do is pre-cast a group of infested terrans than yank whatever unit they want dead and retreat, all of which can easily be queued into action. That with the ability to cast all spells while burrowed will give zerg a much easier time dismantling a fortified terran opponent. At least abduct on viper still relies on other units to take out the abductee. Abduct on infestor kind of turns an infestor into a hitman. ya, good point. Prolly, if you gave Infestor the Abduct ability you'd have to rework the entire unit. i think Viper's consume ability PLUS its ability to trade energy for a fighting unit is just too much. The Queen in Brood War was OK because it did not have a way to instantly crank up its MANA\Energy level. The Queen was a flying anti-Tank threat in Brood War. | ||
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starslayer
United States696 Posts
On December 03 2016 06:20 AssyrianKing wrote: I have no idea anymore... and I don't think blizzard do either this is how i feel just kinda gave up on a good designed/balanced game and just play the game here and there hoping for the best. | ||
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
I like that they are finally talking about the viper. | ||
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Jonsoload
Germany62 Posts
You've got the wrong motiv. The motiv of mech is that the army becomes invincible at its stationary location. This has always been the strengh point of mech, providing so much fire power in the setup area that it would mean nothing short of doom for anyone trying to engage it head on. So what's the weekness of mech? -Hard to secure the infrastructure -Expensive -Low mobility -Extreme fragile while on the move Notice that the Viper penetrates the strenght of mech more so than it does abuse its weakness, and this is the underlying problem. | ||
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yubo56
690 Posts
Not sure whether this is actually high quality, but just an idea heh | ||
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Beelzebub1
1005 Posts
Make abduct have a 2 second tether that let's terrans have a chance to micro the tank out of the tether range, this would be incredibly hard to do in the middle of a fight and really reward the best Terrans in the world being able to save their tanks. Perhaps ever so slightly increase Viper health pool or base armor, maybe even make it slightly smaller? Theres better ways to fix things besides A and B in my opinion, make it a true soft counter, not a wanna be soft counter because it makes tanks totally impotent for less of a duration, make it so that tanks are not made impotent at all in the first place. | ||
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
Swarmhost: - Remove Locusts. Add Scourge. - Scourge cost 25 minerals a pop with a duration of 30 seconds. - Reduce SH movement speed (compensates for the high speed scourge). Viper: - Remove abduct - Remove parasitic bomb - Blinding cloud duration reduced to 5 seconds - Viper cost reduced from 100/200 -> 100/100 - Tech level change from Hive to Spire. (tier 3 -> tier 2.5) | ||
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_AK
5 Posts
On December 03 2016 08:43 Jonsoload wrote: @_AK You've got the wrong motiv. The motiv of mech is that the army becomes invincible at its stationary location. This has always been the strengh point of mech, providing so much fire power in the setup area that it would mean nothing short of doom for anyone trying to engage it head on. So what's the weekness of mech? -Hard to secure the infrastructure -Expensive -Low mobility -Extreme fragile while on the move Notice that the Viper penetrates the strenght of mech more so than it does abuse its weakness, and this is the underlying problem. That's literally what I just said. You just explained my post in further detail, thanks. | ||
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