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Balance changes during the off-season
In order to get more testing done, we’d like to change up how we do patches just for this off-season. Instead of putting every balance change through the balance test map process, we’ll decide on a case-by-case basis. We’ll try to push out smaller or more known changes to the live game quickly, but we’ll still test the larger or less certain changes on the test map before going live.
After going through both the community and pro feedback since the release of the patch, we’re thinking to push out these two changes rather soon:
Revert Cyclone range upgrade
Pro players have pointed out that they were dealing with the early game Cyclone all-ins toward the end of the testing phase right before this nerf went out, so we’d like to try reverting this change and go from there. We hear the concerns that early range can be problematic in TvT in particular, but because players were already finding solutions to some cases, we think this could use more testing. Defending against new threats often takes longer to learn than executing attacks, so we can come to a better conclusion in a couple weeks.
Colossus +light damage (current thinking is 12 +4 light)
We agree that with the mid/late game buffs to Zerg, Protoss looks to be struggling at those stages. This change would help against players going heavy Hydralisks. And with the Cyclone nerf being reverted, this change will help in PvT as we’ve seen bio was very strong in combination with heavy Cyclone usage before the upgrade change. We do hear concerns that this could either bring back the colossus-dominated metagame of HotS, or make bio too weak overall in PvT. We will be watchful going forward to ensure this does not become the case.
Viper
The other main thing currently on the list is Viper strength vs. mech play. We’d like to discuss a couple possibilities: nerfing the duration of Blinding Cloud vs. reducing the range of Abduct. Please give us your thoughts in this area.
Demotions on ladder this season
There was some discussion/confusion regarding demotions at the start of this season so we wanted to provide some clarification. Last season was the first time that we bootstrapped your off-races to the MMR of your main race due to the introduction of separate MMR per race. This potentially caused players to rank higher than their actual skill level on their off-races. At the start of this season, the boundaries automatically adjusted to the correct values, so many players at the higher levels of the ladder were seeing lower ranks than they did toward the end of last season. We expect player rankings to continue becoming more accurate over time.
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Reduce the range of abduct. Also, nerf Hydras.
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Uhm, why not remove the Hydra buff rather than buffing Colossi? For the Viper change, nerfing the duration of BC might be okay since it is mostly used in ZvMech unlike in HotS, but reducing the Abduct range is a no-no; otherwise you can't really fight against the skytoss without it.
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Reducing the range on abduct is better than reducing blinding cloud duration. The problem with abduct is that it allows the viper to trade cost effectively with the units that are meant to zone it out. You can mitigate blinding cloud by spreading your units, you can't really do anything about abduct once the zerg has a large number of vipers abducting everything.
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I feel like blinding cloud and abduct are the smallest issues with the viper in zvt. In HotS you could zone out vipers with vikings. this is not possible anymore because of parasitic bomb countering vikings. Also parasitic bomb made BL/Viper OP because terran didn't have an answer to this before the raven buff (which is OP too)
solution: nerf/remove parasitic bomb so terran can counter vipers with vikings again - revert the seeker missile buff.
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Why not just rework Blinding cloud to cut range in half instead of making the units inside it useless?
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i've said this before.. i'll say it again.
how does the tongue of a flying unit pull a Sieged Tank out of the ground while the flying Viper remains motionless and in the exact same position?
shouldn't this "abduct"/tongue-pull not be possible at all OR at least force the Viper itself to move towards the Sieged Tank at least a little bit?
I say either a Sieged Tank can't be abducted at all.. .or the Viper is pulled forward as it pulls the Sieged Tank out of the ground and towards it... Both the Viper and Sieged Tank should come together and both objects should move.
nerf the Viper in this way... make it move towards the victim of its abduct/tongue-pull OR maybe lower the range of the tongue pull OR eliminate the abduct ability from working on Tanks seiged into the ground.
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On December 03 2016 03:53 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
i've said this before.. i'll say it again.
how does the tongue of a flying unit pull a Sieged Tank out of the ground while the flying Viper remains motionless and in the exact same position?
shouldn't this "abduct"/tongue-pull not be possible at all OR at least force the Viper itself to move towards the Sieged Tank at least a little bit?
I say either a Sieged Tank can't be abducted at all.. .or the Viper is pulled forward as it pulls the Sieged Tank out of the ground and towards it... Both the Viper and Sieged Tank should come together and both objects should move.
It's a game where dudes with guns can take down kilometer long capital ships.A cavalier attitude to conservation of momentum is the least of our concerns.
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Then buff the range of lurkers to 13, so we can all play by massing defense? This is just ridiculous. I can't belive blizzard actualy thinks that a game of massing defense is fun. I mean, we all know the balance team is retarded, but really?
I have an even better idea. Remaster Broodwar so we can have a decent competitive RTS to play, and then leave SC2 to avilo fans. You can make it as awful and boring as you can. Don't expect the balance whine to stop until you still have anything in the game that counter siege tank lines tho.
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Btw, can't wait for protoss openning air to force hydras and then making colossi, it will be just like the old times:
http://i.imgur.com/19p9UlY.gif
User was temp banned for this post.
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I have a suggestion, Make the tank a massive unit. Before I get criticized Biotank vs Protoss would be more viable as players can use their tanks to break through forcefields (Meaning they need to un-siege a tank) As well in mech play this makes tanks un-targetable by abduct. In terms of the cyclone range why not just give it a similar upgrade to the adept glaives? where its main powerpoint is when the player decides to research the upgrade rather than have a mindless 6 range 0.1 attack speed shredder? I don't know entirely but if anyone else wants to throw in some suggestions to this id love to talk more in depth about it
(This feedback is just a bunch of random suggestions if you like it awesome! if you hate it good for you :D)
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On December 03 2016 03:41 Edowyth wrote:
Balance changes during the off-season
In order to get more testing done, we’d like to change up how we do patches just for this off-season. Instead of putting every balance change through the balance test map process, we’ll decide on a case-by-case basis. We’ll try to push out smaller or more known changes to the live game quickly, but we’ll still test the larger or less certain changes on the test map before going live.
After going through both the community and pro feedback since the release of the patch, we’re thinking to push out these two changes rather soon:
this is a good idea. its great to be more experimental while its the off-season.
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How about removing consume? Isn't the problem the fact that vipers virtually have infinite energy?
Then maybe let the viper start with 75 energy, it would allow to keep strong abilities without being able to spam them.
As for someone who don't want to see the colossus buffed in any way, i'd rather have the hydras keep that speed upgrade, but then remove the range upgrade and give them a default 6 range.
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On December 03 2016 03:58 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
A cavalier attitude to conservation of momentum is the least of our concerns.
I so wish I had written that.
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On December 03 2016 03:58 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2016 03:53 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
i've said this before.. i'll say it again.
how does the tongue of a flying unit pull a Sieged Tank out of the ground while the flying Viper remains motionless and in the exact same position?
shouldn't this "abduct"/tongue-pull not be possible at all OR at least force the Viper itself to move towards the Sieged Tank at least a little bit?
I say either a Sieged Tank can't be abducted at all.. .or the Viper is pulled forward as it pulls the Sieged Tank out of the ground and towards it... Both the Viper and Sieged Tank should come together and both objects should move. It's a game where dudes with guns can take down kilometer long capital ships.A cavalier attitude to conservation of momentum is the least of our concerns.
10/10
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On December 03 2016 04:06 Ryu3600 wrote:
I have a suggestion, Make the tank a massive unit. Before I get criticized Biotank vs Protoss would be more viable as players can use their tanks to break through forcefields (Meaning they need to un-siege a tank) As well in mech play this makes tanks un-targetable by abduct. In terms of the cyclone range why not just give it a similar upgrade to the adept glaives? where its main powerpoint is when the player decides to research the upgrade rather than have a mindless 6 range 0.1 attack speed shredder? I don't know entirely but if anyone else wants to throw in some suggestions to this id love to talk more in depth about it
(This feedback is just a bunch of random suggestions if you like it awesome! if you hate it good for you :D)
abduct works on massive units too
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I say instead of buffing the stupid Colossus, Nerf Hydras, Nerf cost and make them 1 supply. 
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On December 03 2016 04:14 blade55555 wrote:I say instead of buffing the stupid Colossus, Nerf Hydras, Nerf cost and make them 1 supply.
or just revert the range buff and buff their health finally
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On December 03 2016 04:10 ArtyK wrote:
How about removing consume? Isn't the problem the fact that vipers virtually have infinite energy?
Then maybe let the viper start with 75 energy, it would allow to keep strong abilities without being able to spam them.
good idea... or nerfing consume 5 fold so that it takes 5 times as much health from buildings and units as it does now.
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Colossus buff, that's exactly what people want because the unit is so fun to use and play against! And people really argue that blizzard actually wants to make the best game possible 
I already said it in the other thread talking about viper abduct but hey this is a good place as well:
Spells in sc2 are always on the edge of being too strong because you can easily spam it. Having 5+ spellcasters and getting all the spells casted in 1 second is no problem. That's the issue, not individual spells being strong. Always the same in this game, a certain strategy revolving casters is perceived as too strong and then the spell gets nerfed so it only is useful when you actually have a large amount of casters. That's not interesting and it's certainly not fun to play.
The easiest method to change that would be to remove smartcasting, if there are other options i am ok with that too but people have to realise that spamming spells is the issue, no? (in the case of the viper it's obviously also the fact that it's a flying spellcaster which makes it even easier to use)
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On December 03 2016 04:22 The_Red_Viper wrote:Colossus buff, that's exactly what people want because the unit is so fun to use and play against! And people really argue that blizzard actually wants to make the best game possible I already said it in the other thread talking about viper abduct but hey this is a good place as well: Spells in sc2 are always on the edge of being too strong because you can easily spam it. Having 5+ spellcasters and getting all the spells casted in 1 second is no problem. That's the issue, not individual spells being strong. Always the same in this game, a certain strategy revolving casters is perceived as too strong and then the spell gets nerfed so it only is useful when you actually have a large amount of casters. That's not interesting and it's certainly not fun to play. The easiest method to change that would be to remove smartcasting, if there are other options i am ok with that too but people have to realise that spamming spells is the issue, no? (in the case of the viper it's obviously also the fact that it's a flying spellcaster which makes it even easier to use)
Or just a cooldown on when you cast the same (or all, whatever) spell again. I know this only really helps when there are one or few casters, but regardless, I think cooldowns in general can have a place in fixing all that is wrong with SC2.
Not related, but I wish supply costs were not so inflated in SC2. I wish SC2 had the large armies that are prevalent in star1. I know it would result in many other issues, but I'd like to see the supply cap raised to 250 or something. Of course, SC2 still lags on semi-modern computers, so I guess they can't do that =\
broken since 2010
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On December 03 2016 03:45 redloser wrote:
Uhm, why not remove the Hydra buff rather than buffing Colossi? For the Viper change, nerfing the duration of BC might be okay since it is mostly used in ZvMech unlike in HotS, but reducing the Abduct range is a no-no; otherwise you can't really fight against the skytoss without it.
Because buffing is fun!
On December 03 2016 03:53 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
i've said this before.. i'll say it again.
how does the tongue of a flying unit pull a Sieged Tank out of the ground while the flying Viper remains motionless and in the exact same position?
shouldn't this "abduct"/tongue-pull not be possible at all OR at least force the Viper itself to move towards the Sieged Tank at least a little bit?
I say either a Sieged Tank can't be abducted at all.. .or the Viper is pulled forward as it pulls the Sieged Tank out of the ground and towards it... Both the Viper and Sieged Tank should come together and both objects should move.
nerf the Viper in this way... make it move towards the victim of its abduct/tongue-pull OR maybe lower the range of the tongue pull OR eliminate the abduct ability from working on Tanks seiged into the ground.
I agree, it looks awful. It goes way over the (well mine at least) suspension of disbelief.
I think they should try swapping abilities between Infestor and Viper, abduct for Neural parasite for example. Have an animation for the Infestor clinging to the ground when pulling, burrowed is fine as is obviously. This will make it look a lot better but more importantly, abducting will be more difficult to.. pull of :p
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On December 03 2016 04:32 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2016 03:45 redloser wrote:
Uhm, why not remove the Hydra buff rather than buffing Colossi? For the Viper change, nerfing the duration of BC might be okay since it is mostly used in ZvMech unlike in HotS, but reducing the Abduct range is a no-no; otherwise you can't really fight against the skytoss without it. Because buffing is fun!
Alright let's let reapers throw actual widow mines!
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"remove consume", "nerf vipers and hydras same time", and shit like this...The amount of "remove Zerg from the game" ballshit on this forum makes me sick. Seriously people, it's not a game ment only for Terrans and Protosses.
As I'm ok with colossus buff, i would recommend to be careful with Viper nerfs. Nerfing blinding cloud duration time means that after casting them, Zerg's damage dealing army won't have time to take positions to deal that damage. Nerfing abduct range would mean that Vipers would be sniped/feedbacked before they even get in range to do something and this unit is veryfragile and not cheap.
Retard ideas like "removing consume"...It's below of myself to comment this but i will do that-vipers come into play so late in the game that waiting for energy grow to cast sth would make this unit useless. Must i remind u that most of casters of other races vome into play on tier2 basically?
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I'm not too sure about these changes, but sure let's test things. I just don't want to see too much Colossus and mech play.
Nerf the viper all you want, I don't like the unit at all! Still, reducing the abduct range would be bad because it would affect fighting vs air armies too. So it would be much better to nerf blinding cloud instead in my opinion.
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This is how best games are made! Keep it up David Kim!
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On December 03 2016 04:34 ArtyK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2016 04:32 Penev wrote:On December 03 2016 03:45 redloser wrote:
Uhm, why not remove the Hydra buff rather than buffing Colossi? For the Viper change, nerfing the duration of BC might be okay since it is mostly used in ZvMech unlike in HotS, but reducing the Abduct range is a no-no; otherwise you can't really fight against the skytoss without it. Because buffing is fun! Alright let's let reapers throw actual widow mines!
Nukes
I propose nukes
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Why no mention of Swarm Hosts?
It does not matter that Vipers hard counter all mech units in the late game.
Swarm Hosts makes sure the mech player never reaches the late game, and even if he does it will be in a really bad position.
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On December 03 2016 04:38 hiroshOne wrote:
"remove consume", "nerf vipers and hydras same time", and shit like this...The amount of "remove Zerg from the game" ballshit on this forum makes me sick. Seriously people, it's not a game ment only for Terrans and Protosses.
As I'm ok with colossus buff, i would recommend to be careful with Viper nerfs. Nerfing blinding cloud duration time means that after casting them, Zerg's damage dealing army won't have time to take positions to deal that damage. Nerfing abduct range would mean that Vipers would be sniped/feedbacked before they even get in range to do something and this unit is veryfragile and not cheap.
Retard ideas like "removing consume"...It's below of myself to comment this but i will do that-vipers come into play so late in the game that waiting for energy grow to cast sth would make this unit useless. Must i remind u that most of casters of other races vome into play on tier2 basically?
Yeah because you generally need vipers midgame against most compositions...not.
Consume allows viper to abuse strong abilities over and over at the cost of energy while your opponents slowly bleeds out his entire army...
By proposing to remove consume and giving vipers a default 75 energy, i stay away from nerfing the abilities you cherish so much. AND you can cast abduct as soon as they get out, isn't that neat?
Considering the current state of ZvX, the nerfs we're discussing here won't remove zerg from the game, believe me...
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On December 03 2016 04:38 hiroshOne wrote:
"remove consume", "nerf vipers and hydras same time", and shit like this...The amount of "remove Zerg from the game" ballshit on this forum makes me sick. Seriously people, it's not a game ment only for Terrans and Protosses.
if nerfing Vipers or swapping abilities between the Viper and Infestor causes Zerg to be weak then i propose that they be buffed in some other way. i want the game to be balanced at the top level of play and then if possible i want it balanced at my level of play. If it can't be balanced in both ways simultaneously while still being a fun game then the top level of play is more important.
On December 03 2016 04:32 Penev wrote:
I think they should try swapping abilities between Infestor and Viper, abduct for Neural parasite for example. Have an animation for the Infestor clinging to the ground when pulling, burrowed is fine as is obviously. This will make it look a lot better but more importantly, abducting will be more difficult to.. pull of :p
that is a good idea too!
in Brood War the Queen could 1-shot a Siege Tank with "parasite" i think it was called. But, the Queen did not have a way to charge up its energy levels the way a Viper does.
i think CONSUME combined with the "Energy For Fighting Unit" trade is just too much in favour of Zerg.
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Nothing on the hydralisk?
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Blizzard, we're begging you: just remove the damn Colossus from the game, significantly change it, or help the disruptor be an outright replacement. Nobody likes a ground, a-move siege unit (in terms of functionality), with a perpendicular wide arc, high ground vision, and zero unit collision (with the exception of other colossi). Units like this promote deathball gameplay, which the game encourages enough as it is.
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On December 03 2016 04:38 Musicus wrote:
I'm not too sure about these changes, but sure let's test things. I just don't want to see too much Colossus and mech play.
Nerf the viper all you want, I don't like the unit at all! Still, reducing the abduct range would be bad because it would affect fighting vs air armies too. So it would be much better to nerf blinding cloud instead in my opinion.
This is really big worry if they nerf abduct. If something is really terrible in SC2 then it is mass air.
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Interesting proposal, swapping abduct for NP, but that would make infestors very good at eliminating key units all by themselves.
A hit squad of 4-5 infestors can single handedly take out tanks or key strategically positioned units.
All they would have to do is pre-cast a group of infested terrans than yank whatever unit they want dead and retreat, all of which can easily be queued into action. That with the ability to cast all spells while burrowed will give zerg a much easier time dismantling a fortified terran opponent.
At least abduct on viper still relies on other units to take out the abductee. Abduct on infestor kind of turns an infestor into a hitman.
Cast a bunch of infested terrans -> have them slow march to fortified position -> burrow move infestors within range of tanks -> abduct tanks into infested terrans -> retreat to safety and wait for energy to build again.
All while burrowed. Sounds like a complex move, and it will be initially, but once the pros get muscle memory trained, it would be easy peasy to use that tactic. I don't know if opponents would have a hard time dealing with that, nor do I know if it is OP, but I think it is a powerful move.
I'm not against moving abilities between viper and infestor, but I am not sure if abduct for NP is the best trade.
I think blinding cloud for NP would be a better switch.
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The viper range will hopefully be reduced.
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Here is an idea, How about instead of reducing the range on the abduct cast, you reduce the range the target can be pulled. That way vipers retain more survivability against units like templar, vikings, and tempest but the units that they pull (with the exception of tanks) are slightly less vulnerable when abducted. Thors, ravens and liberators will always be great targets for abduct so these would be the units that would be stronger against viper from the mech point of view. This change would have a much smaller impact than what is proposed. The only other solution I could come up with is reducing the rate at which vipers can consume buildings for energy.
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I have no idea anymore... and I don't think blizzard do either
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On December 03 2016 06:17 Exquisite7 wrote:
Here is an idea, How about instead of reducing the range on the abduct cast, you reduce the range the target can be pulled. That way vipers retain more survivability against units like templar, vikings, and tempest but the units that they pull (with the exception of tanks) are slightly less vulnerable when abducted. Thors, ravens and liberators will always be great targets for abduct so these would be the units that would be stronger against viper from the mech point of view. This change would have a much smaller impact than what is proposed. The only other solution I could come up with is reducing the rate at which vipers can consume buildings for energy.
So vipers can still safely abduct a unit, but that unit is not abducted so close to the viper. Sounds like a good option. It also gives the abductee a chance to escape.
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On December 03 2016 04:34 ArtyK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2016 04:32 Penev wrote:On December 03 2016 03:45 redloser wrote:
Uhm, why not remove the Hydra buff rather than buffing Colossi? For the Viper change, nerfing the duration of BC might be okay since it is mostly used in ZvMech unlike in HotS, but reducing the Abduct range is a no-no; otherwise you can't really fight against the skytoss without it. Because buffing is fun! Alright let's let reapers throw actual widow mines!
Allow floating buildings to land on and kill all units beneath them.
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Oh the carnage! Imagine an armada of buildings floating above a massive terran army!
It would be suffocating!
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On December 03 2016 06:29 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
Oh the carnage! Imagine an armada of buildings floating above a massive terran army!
It would be suffocating!
Cheese your opponents by doing a barrack-landing rush on their workers.
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Nerfing Vipers? The hell?
I agree that Vipers being an all purpose unit for dealing with mech is kind of ludicrous but that's a design issue not a balance one. Without vipers Zerg could NEVER deal with mech or skyterran in any sort of effective way, especially after this weird ass raven buff they've put in. If you nerf abduct range especially, be prepared to see turtle mech out of every single Terran every single TvZ.
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Norway839 Posts
Can't colossus start with 7 range instead of 6? What about trimming off 15-20% of thermal lance time?
Modifying damage to 12+4 light is so extreme, what about +2 vs light damage and take it from there?
I would also bring Interceptor cost up to 10 (at least). It trades too well at max and killing interceptors isn't even an option now. Only to win by the no-interceptors-left-push-forward condition. Carrier should spawn with 8 interceptors too because they are too weak initially. You already spent a century building the thing so it should spawn with 8. Gravaton catapult upgrade should be removed and launch fire rate should be put somewhere betwen before and after upgrades. For defensive purposes, carriers should be able to build interceptors faster, especially if you reduce the launch fire rate I think this would help battles become more fair. Carrier strength is too binary.
About Viper. It HAS TO stay strong for Zerg to be able to defeat mech especially on medium size maps such as overgrowth.
Tweaking values won't change the fact that zerg is doing one of these:
- Attacking head on with a big sky zerg/viper/transfuse based army, bursting out all spells
- Taking small hit and run trades using viper spells and Consume continously (combos well with swarm host)
Simply nerfing the viper abilities won't solve the identity crisis of the viper. The unit by design is created to be in one of those modes and consume ENCOURAGES hit and run/over time play. If you remove that, you force straight up fights and thus possibly stale board state up until the point of combat. What do they want? A mobile hit and run ninja unit, or a big support caster for grand broodlord/corruptor/infestor viper? Because right now there is no doubt that Mass Raven destroys sky-zerg and that Mass Viper/Hydra/Swarmhost kill-them-before-they-get-there taking free trades is better. I do think Terran lategame is stronger than Zerg but it's impossible for them to reach that stage. So one should work on fixing both.
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Nerf parasitic bomb so I am able to counter Vipers with Vikings, or significantly reduce the radius of BC.
If you nerf BC duration then my sieged tanks will still all die as the Zerg will have made up the distance to them in seconds.
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Rob Pardo somewhere is facepalming.
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On December 03 2016 06:35 Liquid`Snute wrote:
Can't colossus start with 7 range instead of 6? What about trimming off 15-20% of thermal lance time?
Modifying damage to 12+4 light is so extreme, what about +2 vs light damage and take it from there?
I would also bring Interceptor cost up to 10 (at least). It trades too well at max and killing interceptors isn't even an option now. Only to win by the no-interceptors-left-push-forward condition. Carrier should spawn with 8 interceptors too because they are too weak initially. You already spent a century building the thing so it should spawn with 8. Gravaton catapult upgrade should be removed and launch fire rate should be put somewhere betwen before and after upgrades. For defensive purposes, carriers should be able to build interceptors faster, especially if you reduce the launch fire rate I think this would help battles become more fair. Carrier strength is too binary.
About Viper. It HAS TO stay strong for Zerg to be able to defeat mech especially on medium size maps such as overgrowth.
Tweaking values won't change the fact that zerg is doing one of these:
- Attacking head on with a big sky zerg/viper/transfuse based army, bursting out all spells
- Taking small hit and run trades using viper spells and Consume continously (combos well with swarm host)
Simply nerfing the viper abilities won't solve the identity crisis of the viper. The unit by design is created to be in one of those modes and consume ENCOURAGES hit and run/over time play. If you remove that, you force straight up fights and thus possibly stale board state up until the point of combat. What do they want? A mobile hit and run ninja unit, or a big support caster for grand broodlord/corruptor/infestor viper? Because right now there is no doubt that Mass Raven destroys sky-zerg and that Mass Viper/Hydra/Swarmhost kill-them-before-they-get-there taking free trades is better. I do think Terran lategame is stronger than Zerg but it's impossible for them to reach that stage. So one should work on fixing both.
Viper has been OP for years now. If anything parasitic bomb made it god tier and should never have been added because it makes vikings useless as a counter.
Honestly both vipers and ravens needed to have their supply increased to around 4 years ago. These units are too cost efficient and the issue is when you get 10+ of either of them they take over the entire game. Making them cost more supply means you'd be able to get less of them in a maxed out army.
TBH let's just all be real here - they are scapegoating random units now because they don't want to admit they made a massive mistake with the hydra, swarmhost, and infestor buffs. These units are at absurd levels of imbalance right now. Rather than make more problems by buffing collosus and nerfing vipers, they should revert all of the ridiculous Zerg changes they made and just admit they were wrong and made a mistake.
Too bad we know that won't happen.
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Changing viper, yes please.
But if zerg gets underpowered as snute says, then change raven as well. Even if zerg doesnt get underpowered i would like raven changed anyway, its not a fun unit nor has ever been.
The raven unit should feel more like a support unit. Both raven and viper should feel more interactive imo, when viper abducts right now its not as interactive as it can be, its only pre-abduct its interactive which feels rather lame.
Some other suggestion i have on top of my head, perhaps when roaches burrow they get some durability for 1second against attacks that do alot of damage such as siege tanks.
Note iam not playing the game nor have i for long time. But if things improve with the gameplay i might actually pick up the game again and play it hardcore... To many things that are unfun atm.
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On December 03 2016 07:20 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2016 06:35 Liquid`Snute wrote:
Can't colossus start with 7 range instead of 6? What about trimming off 15-20% of thermal lance time?
Modifying damage to 12+4 light is so extreme, what about +2 vs light damage and take it from there?
I would also bring Interceptor cost up to 10 (at least). It trades too well at max and killing interceptors isn't even an option now. Only to win by the no-interceptors-left-push-forward condition. Carrier should spawn with 8 interceptors too because they are too weak initially. You already spent a century building the thing so it should spawn with 8. Gravaton catapult upgrade should be removed and launch fire rate should be put somewhere betwen before and after upgrades. For defensive purposes, carriers should be able to build interceptors faster, especially if you reduce the launch fire rate I think this would help battles become more fair. Carrier strength is too binary.
About Viper. It HAS TO stay strong for Zerg to be able to defeat mech especially on medium size maps such as overgrowth.
Tweaking values won't change the fact that zerg is doing one of these:
- Attacking head on with a big sky zerg/viper/transfuse based army, bursting out all spells
- Taking small hit and run trades using viper spells and Consume continously (combos well with swarm host)
Simply nerfing the viper abilities won't solve the identity crisis of the viper. The unit by design is created to be in one of those modes and consume ENCOURAGES hit and run/over time play. If you remove that, you force straight up fights and thus possibly stale board state up until the point of combat. What do they want? A mobile hit and run ninja unit, or a big support caster for grand broodlord/corruptor/infestor viper? Because right now there is no doubt that Mass Raven destroys sky-zerg and that Mass Viper/Hydra/Swarmhost kill-them-before-they-get-there taking free trades is better. I do think Terran lategame is stronger than Zerg but it's impossible for them to reach that stage. So one should work on fixing both. Viper has been OP for years now. If anything parasitic bomb made it god tier and should never have been added because it makes vikings useless as a counter. Honestly both vipers and ravens needed to have their supply increased to around 4 years ago. These units are too cost efficient and the issue is when you get 10+ of either of them they take over the entire game. Making them cost more supply means you'd be able to get less of them in a maxed out army. TBH let's just all be real here - they are scapegoating random units now because they don't want to admit they made a massive mistake with the hydra, swarmhost, and infestor buffs. These units are at absurd levels of imbalance right now. Rather than make more problems by buffing collosus and nerfing vipers, they should revert all of the ridiculous Zerg changes they made and just admit they were wrong and made a mistake. Too bad we know that won't happen.
It's publicly known that unless you que the game and autowin that you always will bring these balance wall of texts which leads to nowhere. There is many many games where terran reach that state of mass raven i saw at least 10+ today on zerg streams  )
At first Blizzard should adress and remove turtle "strategic" style of the game, if you want things to be mobile thats okay, but games where 30 minutes is only about building turrets and keep zerg home with random harras with banshees and helion cyclone is NOT fun at all.. because u know u play against time clock.
Also how come viper is that "godtier" unit since u can easly snipe it with raven, viking, lib sky combo? or just build turrets? This game should be fast paced not "build defensive units and slowly push zerg to state where he has no unit comp to win...
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The viper vs raven interaction feels like the HT vs ghosts.
I like the idea of caster vs caster, but I don't think ravens and vipers are as balanced as HT and ghosts.
Both might need adjustments to get the game balanced.
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On December 03 2016 06:35 Liquid`Snute wrote:
Can't colossus start with 7 range instead of 6? What about trimming off 15-20% of thermal lance time?
Modifying damage to 12+4 light is so extreme, what about +2 vs light damage and take it from there?
I would also bring Interceptor cost up to 10 (at least). It trades too well at max and killing interceptors isn't even an option now. Only to win by the no-interceptors-left-push-forward condition. Carrier should spawn with 8 interceptors too because they are too weak initially. You already spent a century building the thing so it should spawn with 8. Gravaton catapult upgrade should be removed and launch fire rate should be put somewhere betwen before and after upgrades. For defensive purposes, carriers should be able to build interceptors faster, especially if you reduce the launch fire rate I think this would help battles become more fair. Carrier strength is too binary.
About Viper. It HAS TO stay strong for Zerg to be able to defeat mech especially on medium size maps such as overgrowth.
I guess using the parasite bomb to kill the interceptors does not work? I know you can't target the interceptors with it, but at around the release of LoTV I was messing around by launching the parasite bomb on the carier and getting the corruptor at very close range of the carriers, the interceptors get caught in the AOE of the parasite bomb and it was working fairly well, but I guess that's not going to work at higher level. ^^
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I'll try to give an unbiased idea here --
A big motif with mech TvZ is that the Terran is all but invincible until vipers come out...thus necessitating their use. At that point, the roles reverse and the Zerg starts taking over.
How about making mech more versatile and skill-based, so that the strength of the Terran force is dependent on talent, rather than just sitting in one spot with a huge, unbreakable wall? The mech force would still be as powerful as ever in the right hands, but not automatically just because a critical mass was built. This would also directly devalue the use of vipers, as the Zerg would be able to fight back in the midgame, without them. Most importantly, this would make the matchup more fun for BOTH races, as the strength of either force would be dependent on skill and strategy, rather than who happens to have what unit at what time. Oh, and be more exciting to watch!
I don't believe winning should depend so heavily on units, but rather strategy. Each unit composition should be as strong or weak as its user. These ideas would obviously require several changes to units, but I'm just trying to make this more fun and even for everyone.
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On December 03 2016 07:20 avilo wrote:
TBH let's just all be real here - they are scapegoating random units now because they don't want to admit they made a massive mistake with the hydra, swarmhost, and infestor buffs. These units are at absurd levels of imbalance right now. Rather than make more problems by buffing collosus and nerfing vipers, they should revert all of the ridiculous Zerg changes they made and just admit they were wrong and made a mistake.
let's "pay attention to outcomes"; your projection of total zerg dominance did not come to fruition at IEM. if you made very accurate projections then i'd listen to you more.
On December 03 2016 05:58 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
Interesting proposal, swapping abduct for NP, but that would make infestors very good at eliminating key units all by themselves.
A hit squad of 4-5 infestors can single handedly take out tanks or key strategically positioned units.
All they would have to do is pre-cast a group of infested terrans than yank whatever unit they want dead and retreat, all of which can easily be queued into action. That with the ability to cast all spells while burrowed will give zerg a much easier time dismantling a fortified terran opponent.
At least abduct on viper still relies on other units to take out the abductee. Abduct on infestor kind of turns an infestor into a hitman.
ya, good point. Prolly, if you gave Infestor the Abduct ability you'd have to rework the entire unit.
i think Viper's consume ability PLUS its ability to trade energy for a fighting unit is just too much. The Queen in Brood War was OK because it did not have a way to instantly crank up its MANA\Energy level. The Queen was a flying anti-Tank threat in Brood War.
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On December 03 2016 06:20 AssyrianKing wrote:
I have no idea anymore... and I don't think blizzard do either
this is how i feel just kinda gave up on a good designed/balanced game and just play the game here and there hoping for the best.
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Reduce/nerf abduct IMO.
I like that they are finally talking about the viper.
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@_AK
You've got the wrong motiv. The motiv of mech is that the army becomes invincible at its stationary location. This has always been the strengh point of mech, providing so much fire power in the setup area that it would mean nothing short of doom for anyone trying to engage it head on. So what's the weekness of mech?
-Hard to secure the infrastructure
-Expensive
-Low mobility
-Extreme fragile while on the move
Notice that the Viper penetrates the strenght of mech more so than it does abuse its weakness, and this is the underlying problem.
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Abduct makes viper and unit being abducted switch places! That way vipers are basically suicidal units, and you can't just abduct whatever the fuck you want, you have to do abduct intelligently :D
Not sure whether this is actually high quality, but just an idea heh
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Turn Blinding Cloud into a flat range reduction, something that would reduce most ranged units to range 1 or even melee but still let siege tanks get some shots off and not be made completely impotent.
Make abduct have a 2 second tether that let's terrans have a chance to micro the tank out of the tether range, this would be incredibly hard to do in the middle of a fight and really reward the best Terrans in the world being able to save their tanks.
Perhaps ever so slightly increase Viper health pool or base armor, maybe even make it slightly smaller?
Theres better ways to fix things besides A and B in my opinion, make it a true soft counter, not a wanna be soft counter because it makes tanks totally impotent for less of a duration, make it so that tanks are not made impotent at all in the first place.
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I'd like them to at least try an overhaul of both the SH and the Viper. Rough blueprint would be something along the lines of:
Swarmhost:
- Remove Locusts. Add Scourge.
- Scourge cost 25 minerals a pop with a duration of 30 seconds.
- Reduce SH movement speed (compensates for the high speed scourge).
Viper:
- Remove abduct
- Remove parasitic bomb
- Blinding cloud duration reduced to 5 seconds
- Viper cost reduced from 100/200 -> 100/100
- Tech level change from Hive to Spire. (tier 3 -> tier 2.5)
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On December 03 2016 08:43 Jonsoload wrote:
@_AK
You've got the wrong motiv. The motiv of mech is that the army becomes invincible at its stationary location. This has always been the strengh point of mech, providing so much fire power in the setup area that it would mean nothing short of doom for anyone trying to engage it head on. So what's the weekness of mech?
-Hard to secure the infrastructure
-Expensive
-Low mobility
-Extreme fragile while on the move
Notice that the Viper penetrates the strenght of mech more so than it does abuse its weakness, and this is the underlying problem.
That's literally what I just said. You just explained my post in further detail, thanks.
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colosuss buss will make tvp impossible
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Please bring back mid-season demotions for ladder.
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On December 03 2016 09:29 geokilla wrote:
Please bring back mid-season demotions for ladder.
how would that affect you?
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forgot to mention that reaper grenade still in the game for no reason and zerg has no counter to it.
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On December 03 2016 06:35 Liquid`Snute wrote:
Because right now there is no doubt that Mass Raven destroys sky-zerg and that Mass Viper/Hydra/Swarmhost kill-them-before-they-get-there taking free trades is better. I do think Terran lategame is stronger than Zerg but it's impossible for them to reach that stage. So one should work on fixing both.
Mass ravens make as much sense as current vipers, both should be nerfed instead of staying in this stupid arms race of who gets the supreme lategame first.
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i will never be one of the annoying entitled people who go on rants about ded gaem or firing david kim - i have a lot of respect for sc2 and have enjoyed countless hours of it. mostly i find their reasoning for balance changes pretty rational even when i disagree with it
the one thing that's starting to confuse me though is why they seem to fixate on abstract concepts like "if hydras are a problem maybe we can buff colossus" when there are broad issues emerging with how the game is actually played by human beings. on ladder huge majorities of people are either racing to unbeatable turtle styles or doing allins to avoid ever getting there.
huge majorities of my zvzs are literally just mass banelings move commanding into my natural because the game has become so ability casting intensive that no one wants to bother with tech. same thing with adepts and same thing with terrans starting to use 2rax stim timings. these are all clear signs that a lot of players want to play mechanically with low tech units instead of worrying about dodging spells and juggling hotkeys. but for some reason the solution blizzard offers is to buff tower defense playstyles like mech and skytoss based on some weird even-stevens idea that any style you can dream up should be viable. what actually happens is that the entire midgame of every matchup is ruined because you either survive to tech or you die to aggression
again, i love the game, it's fun and i still play it. but i even find myself going hyper aggressive and ignoring the meta entirely just to play ling bane muta in every matchup because it's simply more fun than playing pin the tail on the counter and don't sneeze or you're dead. and don't misunderstand this as racially motivated - it's a problem across all races and matchups. it's a problem because blizzard is trying to please everyone in ways that arent possible. please just make the game have a consistent feel and consistent requirements. making every random thing viable doesn't help. gimmicks like burrow and DT blink don't make the game more playable, they just make it more intense. and it's already VERY INTENSE
the midgame is dying. hots tvz with ling bane muta vs bio mine was beautiful because it had a rich mechanical midgame. NOT because 48 styles and builds were all viable.
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I really need to find some time to actually play a few ladder games before possible hydra nerf haha
End of year and so much work irl :'(
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For sure with the actual viper's abilities that's quite impossible to play mech.
Imo you should reduce the blind cloud effect to one targeted unit.
That's not normal to make 3/4 tanks useless with only one blinding cloud. And during a fight that's not easy to split tanks well enough to avoid to have a group focused by one blinding cloud, since you have to scan all the time to see where zerg army is, and since zerg army can attack from multiple angles.
Very often you are following your attack carefully but just one seconde when the zerg army is on you, you have to siege them up quickly but that's too late. 2 blinding clouds and your all army is useless.
And everybody knows how long is the mech army repop, so one fight lost and you are DEAD.
Also with the disappearance of the tankivacs it is impossible to take up a good position back and unsiege them during a fight is a loss for sure.
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I don't see the point of the colossus buff. The disruptor seems to work just fine, and this buff wouldn't be needed if it wasn't for the hasty hydralisk buff last patch.
I still haven't seen a compelling reason why the hydralisk was buffed in the first place - and now that it's making PvZ suffer you're going to buff the colossus with some weird +light damage to compensate. Why did you buff the hydralisk to begin with?
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I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone
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At least they're on the right path. Nerfing the gamebreaking caster instead of the very strong (arguably OP) core unit is the better choice
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On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone
Exactly this. It's been years now and Blizzard always does the same thing. They nerf to the ground every good unit that Zerg has. Balance topics are always about Terran and Protoss crying as they cannot a-move to victory vs Zerg. Terrans crying about ultralisks-Blizzard nerfs them-Terrans switch to cry about vipers, infestors, hydralisks. I mean...what will left after those oceans of tears for Zerg?
I'm also tire of reading about mech as it would be a 4th race in this game. It's Terran. And i just don't understand this cry that pure mech composition cannot kill everything in the game. Zergs are not crying that Muta/bling doesnt kill mass siegetanks/thors. They just make units that can do that. U cry about mech having problems with Vipers. So how about mixing some ghosts? Too hard?
Year after year of those changes of Zerg based on rivers of tears makes Zerg less and less fun to play. I mean Blizzard. Stop listening biased people like Avilo or others. I would strongly reccomend to u all to play the game and stop whining. Meta needs time to settle. I loose hard to Terran bio but still im not whining. Just playing and improving.
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On December 03 2016 04:38 Musicus wrote:
I'm not too sure about these changes, but sure let's test things. I just don't want to see too much Colossus and mech play.
Nerf the viper all you want, I don't like the unit at all! Still, reducing the abduct range would be bad because it would affect fighting vs air armies too. So it would be much better to nerf blinding cloud instead in my opinion.
But if you nerf viper you will see more mech, mass colo and mass carrier.
PB are uneffective vs capital ship, and abduct barely useful. Actually, zerg can't kill the golden skytoss with their units when P reach a point of invincible deathball.
It will nerf viper you encourage T/P to camp and make their deathball.
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On December 03 2016 19:01 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2016 04:38 Musicus wrote:
I'm not too sure about these changes, but sure let's test things. I just don't want to see too much Colossus and mech play.
Nerf the viper all you want, I don't like the unit at all! Still, reducing the abduct range would be bad because it would affect fighting vs air armies too. So it would be much better to nerf blinding cloud instead in my opinion. But if you nerf viper you will see more mech, mass colo and mass carrier. PB are uneffective vs capital ship, and abduct barely useful. Actually, zerg can't kill the golden skytoss with their units when P reach a point of invincible deathball. It will nerf viper you encourage T/P to camp and make their deathball.
Mech is 100% unviable atm for people who are not gm/highmaster who main mech, you can literally not play mech on the ladder because of how good vipers are and this is not up for debate, mech players have to avoid lategame or suffer an instant loss, this is entirely unbalanced in zergs favor and the fact you dont see this is worrysome.
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On December 03 2016 03:49 Charoisaur wrote:
I feel like blinding cloud and abduct are the smallest issues with the viper in zvt. In HotS you could zone out vipers with vikings. this is not possible anymore because of parasitic bomb countering vikings. Also parasitic bomb made BL/Viper OP because terran didn't have an answer to this before the raven buff (which is OP too)
solution: nerf/remove parasitic bomb so terran can counter vipers with vikings again - revert the seeker missile buff.
Totally aggree with that, parasite bomb is the issue, when one viper can kill 15 vikings, you know something is not right. The other spells can be avoided by good tank placement while parasite bomb just counters viper's counter...
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On December 03 2016 18:29 JackONeill wrote:
At least they're on the right path. Nerfing the gamebreaking caster instead of the very strong (arguably OP) core unit is the better choice
Wrong, if there is any gamebreaking caster it's high templar
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On December 03 2016 03:53 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
i've said this before.. i'll say it again.
how does the tongue of a flying unit pull a Sieged Tank out of the ground while the flying Viper remains motionless and in the exact same position?
shouldn't this "abduct"/tongue-pull not be possible at all OR at least force the Viper itself to move towards the Sieged Tank at least a little bit?
I say either a Sieged Tank can't be abducted at all.. .or the Viper is pulled forward as it pulls the Sieged Tank out of the ground and towards it... Both the Viper and Sieged Tank should come together and both objects should move.
nerf the Viper in this way... make it move towards the victim of its abduct/tongue-pull OR maybe lower the range of the tongue pull OR eliminate the abduct ability from working on Tanks seiged into the ground.
nah. it leans back a bit.
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Why not make it so that sieged tanks cannot be abducted? They are bolted into the ground after all. Doesn't need to be about physics. Just that static deployed units cannot be abducted. And maybe massive units can only abducted half way? And blinding cloud cutting range in half rather than to zero? Not saying that all that should be used of course, just some thoughts.
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On December 03 2016 19:39 Nerchio wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2016 18:29 JackONeill wrote:
At least they're on the right path. Nerfing the gamebreaking caster instead of the very strong (arguably OP) core unit is the better choice Wrong, if there is any gamebreaking caster it's high templar
nerchio please be honest, do you want mech to be a viable playstyle or not? if not then why, and what buffs would you give zerg in exchange for removing blinding cloud?
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raven turret damage is way too high and protoss is totally fucked vs zerg.
we need 14 damage flat stalker damage and maybe more.
Disruptors are a total gamble and not worth it with their tiny range and slow shot speed. Colossus are boring and will always create deathballs. Make disruptor shots last longer or go faster and maybe reduce damage and increase radius or the other way around.
Interceptors probably should be 10 minerals.
tempests shoulb go back to the way they were with 4-5 supply cost but with less HP since they are artillery.
Vipers parasitic bomb should not stack but do more damage and blinding cloud might need a shorter casting range.
I like the chargelot and void speed buff though.
Thx
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On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone
There's a difference between "good" and "too good".
Zerg has plenty of good units. The viper in its current state is too good against terran mech and air.
because of its strength the raven needed to be buffed again and now tvz lategame is all about massing OP spellcasters.
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On December 03 2016 21:52 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone There's a difference between "good" and "too good". Zerg has plenty of good units. The viper in its current state is too good against terran mech and air. because of its strength the raven needed to be buffed again and now tvz lategame is all about massing OP spellcasters.
Can you name me two good units? We are getting rekt by anything in lategame...
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Colossus +light damage (current thinking is 12 +4 light)
If something's broken... break it more.
Viper
We’d like to discuss a couple possibilities: nerfing the duration of Blinding Cloud vs. reducing the range of Abduct. Please give us your thoughts in this area.
Why not both? How about hard-nerfing Consume? I guess it's against the Blizzard design guidelines for Zerg: "there should be plenty of free stuff".
Demotions on ladder this season
Anyone with half a brain could have predicted the MMR break as a result of the 3-race ladder system deployment. Not Blizzard tho.
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On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone
You are without hesitation the best zerg foreigner, and probably the best foreigner, but that's really not fair no to admit Vipers are way too powerful.
All of the 3 casts they have are super useful and too effective.
Blizzard want to make mech viable again ? They have to nerf vipers for sure.
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On December 03 2016 19:17 FoxDog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2016 19:01 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 03 2016 04:38 Musicus wrote:
I'm not too sure about these changes, but sure let's test things. I just don't want to see too much Colossus and mech play.
Nerf the viper all you want, I don't like the unit at all! Still, reducing the abduct range would be bad because it would affect fighting vs air armies too. So it would be much better to nerf blinding cloud instead in my opinion. But if you nerf viper you will see more mech, mass colo and mass carrier. PB are uneffective vs capital ship, and abduct barely useful. Actually, zerg can't kill the golden skytoss with their units when P reach a point of invincible deathball. It will nerf viper you encourage T/P to camp and make their deathball. Mech is 100% unviable atm for people who are not gm/highmaster who main mech, you can literally not play mech on the ladder because of how good vipers are and this is not up for debate, mech players have to avoid lategame or suffer an instant loss, this is entirely unbalanced in zergs favor and the fact you dont see this is worrysome.
there is a grain of truth in this comment for Diamond players.
my mech game is weaker now. i'm in Diamond and usually i can get into Tier 1 and top 10; now i am stuck at the top of Tier 3. if they can buff mech great. "unviable" is an arbitrary label. maybe "Mech" was OP when i was using it to get to the top of diamond.
i just like rolling with 12+ Tanks. its fun. i might have a higher rank and "be a better player" if i did other stuff. however, getting into Masters really isn't that important to me. i like watching shit blow up and units fly across the screen as my Tanks bomb my enemy into the 19th century.
i don't think its Blizzard's responsibility to "balance" my "shits and giggles" playstyle into becoming a serious competitive threat.
On December 03 2016 18:29 JackONeill wrote:
At least they're on the right path. Nerfing the gamebreaking caster instead of the very strong (arguably OP) core unit is the better choice
+1, yes, i agree.
some guy named JackONeill on the BNet forums recommended experimenting with a 10 ( +6 to light ) Colossus. That would be interesting to see and a worthy experiment.
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On December 03 2016 22:53 bObA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone You are without hesitation the best zerg foreigner, and probably the best foreigner, but that's really not fair no to admit Vipers are way too powerful. All of the 3 casts they have are super useful and too effective. Blizzard want to make mech viable again ? They have to nerf vipers for sure.
Spellcasters of protoss like HT/Oracle are already more powerful than Viper so if you want to nerf Viper then why not nerf those too
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Nerf burrow fungal. its broken
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On December 04 2016 00:49 Nerchio wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2016 22:53 bObA wrote:On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone You are without hesitation the best zerg foreigner, and probably the best foreigner, but that's really not fair no to admit Vipers are way too powerful. All of the 3 casts they have are super useful and too effective. Blizzard want to make mech viable again ? They have to nerf vipers for sure. Spellcasters of protoss like HT/Oracle are already more powerful than Viper so if you want to nerf Viper then why not nerf those too
Because they don't singlehandedly invalidate mech in the matchup? XD
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On December 04 2016 01:28 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2016 00:49 Nerchio wrote:On December 03 2016 22:53 bObA wrote:On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone You are without hesitation the best zerg foreigner, and probably the best foreigner, but that's really not fair no to admit Vipers are way too powerful. All of the 3 casts they have are super useful and too effective. Blizzard want to make mech viable again ? They have to nerf vipers for sure. Spellcasters of protoss like HT/Oracle are already more powerful than Viper so if you want to nerf Viper then why not nerf those too Because they don't singlehandedly invalidate mech in the matchup? XD
How does viper invalidate mech? You can play it just fine but you can't just sit there thinking you are unbreakable. We had that in Heart of the swarm and that was stupid as hell
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Man what happened to Bizzard? They are always on track nowdays with both great changes and great communication. Long may it last.
I feel the passion coming strong
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On December 04 2016 01:45 Nerchio wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2016 01:28 JackONeill wrote:On December 04 2016 00:49 Nerchio wrote:On December 03 2016 22:53 bObA wrote:On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone You are without hesitation the best zerg foreigner, and probably the best foreigner, but that's really not fair no to admit Vipers are way too powerful. All of the 3 casts they have are super useful and too effective. Blizzard want to make mech viable again ? They have to nerf vipers for sure. Spellcasters of protoss like HT/Oracle are already more powerful than Viper so if you want to nerf Viper then why not nerf those too Because they don't singlehandedly invalidate mech in the matchup? XD How does viper invalidate mech? You can play it just fine but you can't just sit there thinking you are unbreakable. We had that in Heart of the swarm and that was stupid as hell
Why the hell can people not grasp this? Even if Vipers are teetering on overbearing what are they really overbearing against? Mass unbreakable tank lines that without Blinding Cloud is unbeatable? Mass cancer Ravens where without PB and abduct there is no fighting it?
You know, crazy thought here and all, I'm sure I'll receive a flame or two but...
You can micro your tanks so that they aren't sieged in a giant blob where 1 Cloud disables 8 of them...Contrary to popular belief, mech requires very high apm and micro to make work. You should be punished for poor unit positioning, tanks in their current form are incredibly powerful vs ground units so their counters need to be strong or mech will just be broken.
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On December 03 2016 22:53 bObA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone You are without hesitation the best zerg foreigner, and probably the best foreigner, but that's really not fair no to admit Vipers are way too powerful. All of the 3 casts they have are super useful and too effective. Blizzard want to make mech viable again ? They have to nerf vipers for sure.
Infestors are super useful and too effective? 3? Are we really calling Queens too effective? hahaha
O__o..
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On December 04 2016 01:45 Nerchio wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2016 01:28 JackONeill wrote:On December 04 2016 00:49 Nerchio wrote:On December 03 2016 22:53 bObA wrote:On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone You are without hesitation the best zerg foreigner, and probably the best foreigner, but that's really not fair no to admit Vipers are way too powerful. All of the 3 casts they have are super useful and too effective. Blizzard want to make mech viable again ? They have to nerf vipers for sure. Spellcasters of protoss like HT/Oracle are already more powerful than Viper so if you want to nerf Viper then why not nerf those too Because they don't singlehandedly invalidate mech in the matchup? XD How does viper invalidate mech? You can play it just fine but you can't just sit there thinking you are unbreakable. We had that in Heart of the swarm and that was stupid as hell Mech isnt viable at all, the only way to beat viper in any unit compo is to use ghost perfectly
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On December 04 2016 02:55 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2016 22:53 bObA wrote:On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone You are without hesitation the best zerg foreigner, and probably the best foreigner, but that's really not fair no to admit Vipers are way too powerful. All of the 3 casts they have are super useful and too effective. Blizzard want to make mech viable again ? They have to nerf vipers for sure. Infestors are super useful and too effective? 3? Are we really calling Queens too effective? hahaha O__o..
Casts as in spells. Not casters.
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On December 04 2016 02:52 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2016 01:45 Nerchio wrote:On December 04 2016 01:28 JackONeill wrote:On December 04 2016 00:49 Nerchio wrote:On December 03 2016 22:53 bObA wrote:On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone You are without hesitation the best zerg foreigner, and probably the best foreigner, but that's really not fair no to admit Vipers are way too powerful. All of the 3 casts they have are super useful and too effective. Blizzard want to make mech viable again ? They have to nerf vipers for sure. Spellcasters of protoss like HT/Oracle are already more powerful than Viper so if you want to nerf Viper then why not nerf those too Because they don't singlehandedly invalidate mech in the matchup? XD How does viper invalidate mech? You can play it just fine but you can't just sit there thinking you are unbreakable. We had that in Heart of the swarm and that was stupid as hell Why the hell can people not grasp this? Even if Vipers are teetering on overbearing what are they really overbearing against? Mass unbreakable tank lines that without Blinding Cloud is unbeatable? Mass cancer Ravens where without PB and abduct there is no fighting it? You know, crazy thought here and all, I'm sure I'll receive a flame or two but... You can micro your tanks so that they aren't sieged in a giant blob where 1 Cloud disables 8 of them...Contrary to popular belief, mech requires very high apm and micro to make work. You should be punished for poor unit positioning, tanks in their current form are incredibly powerful vs ground units so their counters need to be strong or mech will just be broken. its a reason no pro player play mech. it dosnt work. you dont get to the late comp you wwant, and if you do, zerg have taken whole map while you have 3-4
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On December 04 2016 02:57 MiCroLiFe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2016 02:52 Beelzebub1 wrote:On December 04 2016 01:45 Nerchio wrote:On December 04 2016 01:28 JackONeill wrote:On December 04 2016 00:49 Nerchio wrote:On December 03 2016 22:53 bObA wrote:On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone You are without hesitation the best zerg foreigner, and probably the best foreigner, but that's really not fair no to admit Vipers are way too powerful. All of the 3 casts they have are super useful and too effective. Blizzard want to make mech viable again ? They have to nerf vipers for sure. Spellcasters of protoss like HT/Oracle are already more powerful than Viper so if you want to nerf Viper then why not nerf those too Because they don't singlehandedly invalidate mech in the matchup? XD How does viper invalidate mech? You can play it just fine but you can't just sit there thinking you are unbreakable. We had that in Heart of the swarm and that was stupid as hell Why the hell can people not grasp this? Even if Vipers are teetering on overbearing what are they really overbearing against? Mass unbreakable tank lines that without Blinding Cloud is unbeatable? Mass cancer Ravens where without PB and abduct there is no fighting it? You know, crazy thought here and all, I'm sure I'll receive a flame or two but... You can micro your tanks so that they aren't sieged in a giant blob where 1 Cloud disables 8 of them...Contrary to popular belief, mech requires very high apm and micro to make work. You should be punished for poor unit positioning, tanks in their current form are incredibly powerful vs ground units so their counters need to be strong or mech will just be broken. its a reason no pro player play mech. it dosnt work. you dont get to the late comp you wwant, and if you do, zerg have taken whole map while you have 3-4
But there is lots of styles that are sub optimal to play at the tip top level that work just fine at any level before that (which is about 99.9% of players) like Roach/Hydra/Viper (sucks still even with super Hydralisks), all robo or all Stargate (cancer style imo) is generally not viable. I understand that Terran is tired of playing bio I reall do, I'm kind of bored watching it. I'm hoping they will bring bio mech back in full as I thought that yielded the best ZvT games (marine/tank vs LBM) but making mech imba by buffing everything and nerfing everything that can fight it isn't the way to do it.
Mech sucks because SC players think that mech has to be mass defensive tank mech which was truly nerfed when the new economy system was implemented, it has little to do with unit on unit interactions and everything to do with map design and economy.
Mech is gas intensive and it's pretty damn mineral heavy as well, so you need lots of bases. Problem is that bases mine out extremely quickly, between harassment from the non Terran and MULES stripping expansions in minutes, mech is forced to spread out and have thin defensive lines, which is an inherent critical weakness of mech in the first place. As long as the economy system is this way tank based turtle mech styles will be weak because mobility is king in SC2.
The only reason BW tank mech was so good is because Vultures were so fast and Spider Mines so good at holding multiple territories at a time that mech COULD spread out a bit, by the time the enemy wades through the mine fields you can have tanks and Science Vessels in position. Tanks were powerful in BW for sure, but mech itself was only viable because the Vultures compensated for a critical weakness in mech that Hellions and Banshees just do not in SC2, and that is allowing mech to have a lightning fast raider/defender that could hold ground through Spider Mine fields.
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On December 04 2016 02:57 MiCroLiFe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2016 02:52 Beelzebub1 wrote:On December 04 2016 01:45 Nerchio wrote:On December 04 2016 01:28 JackONeill wrote:On December 04 2016 00:49 Nerchio wrote:On December 03 2016 22:53 bObA wrote:On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone You are without hesitation the best zerg foreigner, and probably the best foreigner, but that's really not fair no to admit Vipers are way too powerful. All of the 3 casts they have are super useful and too effective. Blizzard want to make mech viable again ? They have to nerf vipers for sure. Spellcasters of protoss like HT/Oracle are already more powerful than Viper so if you want to nerf Viper then why not nerf those too Because they don't singlehandedly invalidate mech in the matchup? XD How does viper invalidate mech? You can play it just fine but you can't just sit there thinking you are unbreakable. We had that in Heart of the swarm and that was stupid as hell Why the hell can people not grasp this? Even if Vipers are teetering on overbearing what are they really overbearing against? Mass unbreakable tank lines that without Blinding Cloud is unbeatable? Mass cancer Ravens where without PB and abduct there is no fighting it? You know, crazy thought here and all, I'm sure I'll receive a flame or two but... You can micro your tanks so that they aren't sieged in a giant blob where 1 Cloud disables 8 of them...Contrary to popular belief, mech requires very high apm and micro to make work. You should be punished for poor unit positioning, tanks in their current form are incredibly powerful vs ground units so their counters need to be strong or mech will just be broken. its a reason no pro player play mech. it dosnt work. you dont get to the late comp you wwant, and if you do, zerg have taken whole map while you have 3-4
You end up with 3 or 4 bases if all your plan is building the invincible army while doing nothing else.
This is boring to watch, boring to play against and in my opinion it is also boring to play.
But in this patch mech was given tools not only for a slow but strong army, but also tools for a mobile and annoying army (early speed banshees, cyclones, etc). Utilize both and you can be active on the map while making your army at home. Or even invest in another rax, stim, some marines, and be active on the map while making a mech army at home (factories, upgrades, etc).
I think that was Nechios point about a viable mech without sitting there and thinking you were unbreakable,
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On December 03 2016 22:46 PharaphobiaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2016 21:52 Charoisaur wrote:On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone There's a difference between "good" and "too good". Zerg has plenty of good units. The viper in its current state is too good against terran mech and air. because of its strength the raven needed to be buffed again and now tvz lategame is all about massing OP spellcasters. Can you name me two good units? We are getting rekt by anything in lategame...
If you don't think zerg has any good units I won't be able to convince you otherwise so I don't even bother.
Btw terran has no good units and protoss has no good units.
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On December 04 2016 03:40 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2016 22:46 PharaphobiaSC wrote:On December 03 2016 21:52 Charoisaur wrote:On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone There's a difference between "good" and "too good". Zerg has plenty of good units. The viper in its current state is too good against terran mech and air. because of its strength the raven needed to be buffed again and now tvz lategame is all about massing OP spellcasters. Can you name me two good units? We are getting rekt by anything in lategame... If you don't think zerg has any good units I won't be able to convince you otherwise so I don't even bother. Btw terran has no good units and protoss has no good units.
Yea not sure what that guy is talking about, Zerg certainly isn't suffering from having alot of non viable units at the moment, burrow Fungal seems very strong vs parade pushes and the Infestor has been the neutered dog in Zerg's arsenal for awhile now.
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Been playing mech since before the viper was out and still have no issues with the unit. If blizzard feels its necessary I think it should be something that doesn't change the vipers abilities. And the only thing i can think of would be to increase the energy cost of blinding cloud by 25.
This would make it so they cant throw down 2 at full energy. And if people still want to complain rather than figure out a solution increase abduct to 100 so a parasitic bomb/abduct or blinding cloud/abduct cant be used off 200 energy. Higher costing spells also just naturally fit well with a unit that has strong abilities along with a way to regain it quicker than other casters.
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On December 04 2016 03:31 bulya wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2016 02:57 MiCroLiFe wrote:On December 04 2016 02:52 Beelzebub1 wrote:On December 04 2016 01:45 Nerchio wrote:On December 04 2016 01:28 JackONeill wrote:On December 04 2016 00:49 Nerchio wrote:On December 03 2016 22:53 bObA wrote:On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone You are without hesitation the best zerg foreigner, and probably the best foreigner, but that's really not fair no to admit Vipers are way too powerful. All of the 3 casts they have are super useful and too effective. Blizzard want to make mech viable again ? They have to nerf vipers for sure. Spellcasters of protoss like HT/Oracle are already more powerful than Viper so if you want to nerf Viper then why not nerf those too Because they don't singlehandedly invalidate mech in the matchup? XD How does viper invalidate mech? You can play it just fine but you can't just sit there thinking you are unbreakable. We had that in Heart of the swarm and that was stupid as hell Why the hell can people not grasp this? Even if Vipers are teetering on overbearing what are they really overbearing against? Mass unbreakable tank lines that without Blinding Cloud is unbeatable? Mass cancer Ravens where without PB and abduct there is no fighting it? You know, crazy thought here and all, I'm sure I'll receive a flame or two but... You can micro your tanks so that they aren't sieged in a giant blob where 1 Cloud disables 8 of them...Contrary to popular belief, mech requires very high apm and micro to make work. You should be punished for poor unit positioning, tanks in their current form are incredibly powerful vs ground units so their counters need to be strong or mech will just be broken. its a reason no pro player play mech. it dosnt work. you dont get to the late comp you wwant, and if you do, zerg have taken whole map while you have 3-4 You end up with 3 or 4 bases if all your plan is building the invincible army while doing nothing else. This is boring to watch, boring to play against and in my opinion it is also boring to play. But in this patch mech was given tools not only for a slow but strong army, but also tools for a mobile and annoying army (early speed banshees, cyclones, etc). Utilize both and you can be active on the map while making your army at home. Or even invest in another rax, stim, some marines, and be active on the map while making a mech army at home (factories, upgrades, etc). I think that was Nechios point about a viable mech without sitting there and thinking you were unbreakable,
You guys are claiming mech is viable at pro level. Based on what exactly? Theory? Which pro players are playing mech? Show me games to support that claim.
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On December 04 2016 01:45 Nerchio wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2016 01:28 JackONeill wrote:On December 04 2016 00:49 Nerchio wrote:On December 03 2016 22:53 bObA wrote:On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone You are without hesitation the best zerg foreigner, and probably the best foreigner, but that's really not fair no to admit Vipers are way too powerful. All of the 3 casts they have are super useful and too effective. Blizzard want to make mech viable again ? They have to nerf vipers for sure. Spellcasters of protoss like HT/Oracle are already more powerful than Viper so if you want to nerf Viper then why not nerf those too Because they don't singlehandedly invalidate mech in the matchup? XD How does viper invalidate mech? You can play it just fine but you can't just sit there thinking you are unbreakable. We had that in Heart of the swarm and that was stupid as hell
I'm not using my experiences since your level at the game obviously invalidates them, but snute explained on his stream last time i watched it how vipers + 7 range hydras + SH made mech terrible. He stated that mech can't ever push across the map, and is forced into massive turtling while being chipped away by SH and vipers.
The viper isn't the sole reason mech sucks, since mech wasn't that bad before 3.8 (gumiho in particular), but with the hydra buff and the SH buff, mech simply has no answer than to turtle up and mass ravens, which is insanely boring.
And i'd much rather keep a strong hydra than an extremely dominant viper, since it's the main reason why mech players cower behind a wall of turrets.
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blinding cloud does need its radius reduced as currently it is actually bigger than it appears. It makes no sense that a sieged tank is still affected by blinding cloud even if it is barely touching the edge of the cloud.
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plz nerf infestor. they can destroy bios without any risk!gg
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On December 04 2016 00:49 Nerchio wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2016 22:53 bObA wrote:On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone You are without hesitation the best zerg foreigner, and probably the best foreigner, but that's really not fair no to admit Vipers are way too powerful. All of the 3 casts they have are super useful and too effective. Blizzard want to make mech viable again ? They have to nerf vipers for sure. Spellcasters of protoss like HT/Oracle are already more powerful than Viper so if you want to nerf Viper then why not nerf those too
Interesting. So - narrowing the perspective to PvZ for a moment - we could remove Oracle and Viper, and since Protoss is losing the 'already more powerful' unit, give them a buff to compensate?
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Seeing Flash , Jaedong and Bisu going strong in BW, just makes me cringe in anger at how SC2 design team take advice from the wrong ppl.
Just pay Flash, Jaedong and Bisu Blizzard as the lead design advisors and there you have it. BW 2.0, which is a real RTS that everyone will want to play.
I know, I am making too much sense, hence this will be ignored.
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On December 04 2016 19:48 Parcelleus wrote:
Seeing Flash , Jaedong and Bisu going strong in BW, just makes me cringe in anger at how SC2 design team take advice from the wrong ppl.
Just pay Flash, Jaedong and Bisu Blizzard as the lead design advisors and there you have it. BW 2.0, which is a real RTS that everyone will want to play.
I know, I am making too much sense, hence this will be ignored.
Would be a dream <3
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Simple changes (not ideal solutions, but easy):
1. Blinding Cloud reduces range of enemy units by 6.
2. Abduct range reduced by 1.
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In my mind the best solution for the viper is to make it a ground unit like the defiler. This allows tanks to snipe vipers with proper control. Also, the added collision size will automatically reduce the effectiveness of vipers because of being blocked by other units.
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If you have to change the Viper, change energy costs or at the most remove consume but nerfing it would make an expensive unit almost useless as there are already ways to deal with them. High Templars and Ghosts are a good counter and they are less expensive. Additionally, I feel adding Ghosts to late game mech compositions could be very strong since you dont need any upgrades on them as their abilities is whats important, but I'm no terran so I really dont know why T doesnt go for this.
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Mech is worse after patch due to super Hydras, very cheap swarm hosts and vipers.
This patch was supposed to help mech but made it much worse in TvZ.
So when will this be corrected?
Start by removing one range from Hydras, make Swarm Hosts more expensive and nerf Vipers.
Increasing Colossus damage is the wrong move, fix what caused the problem in the first place, not some band-aid solution.
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On December 04 2016 19:48 Parcelleus wrote:
Seeing Flash , Jaedong and Bisu going strong in BW, just makes me cringe in anger at how SC2 design team take advice from the wrong ppl.
Just pay Flash, Jaedong and Bisu Blizzard as the lead design advisors and there you have it. BW 2.0, which is a real RTS that everyone will want to play.
I know, I am making too much sense, hence this will be ignored.
These clowns just take reddit posts and the majority of whine as some kind of truth and start changing shit with 0 idea about the rammifcations at top level play
It's also ever so obvious that noone at blizzard knows how games play out at grandmaster ++ on the ladder
it's been like this since forever idk why it still makes me upset fml
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This might be a dumb question but is there a chance that the game will be, like, done any time soon?
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Revert the fucking changes its fucking unplayable for protoss for fucks sake.
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On December 04 2016 03:40 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2016 22:46 PharaphobiaSC wrote:On December 03 2016 21:52 Charoisaur wrote:On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone There's a difference between "good" and "too good". Zerg has plenty of good units. The viper in its current state is too good against terran mech and air. because of its strength the raven needed to be buffed again and now tvz lategame is all about massing OP spellcasters. Can you name me two good units? We are getting rekt by anything in lategame... If you don't think zerg has any good units I won't be able to convince you otherwise so I don't even bother. Btw terran has no good units and protoss has no good units.
Yeah sure :
I guess :
Marines are bad,
Reaper are bad
Medivac are bad
Tank are bad (just 13 range, and 70 dmg)
Wm are bad
Liberators are bad
Raven are bad
And adept bad,
Immortals bad,
Phoenix bad,
chargelots bad,
archons bad,
Hight templar bad,
Disruptor bad,
DT bad,
WP bad,
Carrier bad.
Why don't you switch to zerg, we'll see if you will become the first sc2 player of the world as Zerg so easy and so strong ?
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On December 05 2016 04:52 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2016 03:40 Charoisaur wrote:On December 03 2016 22:46 PharaphobiaSC wrote:On December 03 2016 21:52 Charoisaur wrote:On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone There's a difference between "good" and "too good". Zerg has plenty of good units. The viper in its current state is too good against terran mech and air. because of its strength the raven needed to be buffed again and now tvz lategame is all about massing OP spellcasters. Can you name me two good units? We are getting rekt by anything in lategame... If you don't think zerg has any good units I won't be able to convince you otherwise so I don't even bother. Btw terran has no good units and protoss has no good units. Yeah sure : I guess : Marines are bad, Reaper are bad Medivac are bad Tank are bad (just 13 range, and 70 dmg) Wm are bad Liberators are bad Raven are bad And adept bad, Immortals bad, Phoenix bad, chargelots bad, archons bad, Hight templar bad, Disruptor bad, DT bad, WP bad, Carrier bad. Why don't you switch to zerg, we'll see if you will become the first sc2 player of the world as Zerg so easy and so strong ?
ah you're right all t and p units are ridicolously strong while z units are all garbage and need to be buffed.
my bad how couldn't I see it..
thanks for reminding me why I want to get out of those balance discussions
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On December 05 2016 05:06 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2016 04:52 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 04 2016 03:40 Charoisaur wrote:On December 03 2016 22:46 PharaphobiaSC wrote:On December 03 2016 21:52 Charoisaur wrote:On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone There's a difference between "good" and "too good". Zerg has plenty of good units. The viper in its current state is too good against terran mech and air. because of its strength the raven needed to be buffed again and now tvz lategame is all about massing OP spellcasters. Can you name me two good units? We are getting rekt by anything in lategame... If you don't think zerg has any good units I won't be able to convince you otherwise so I don't even bother. Btw terran has no good units and protoss has no good units. Yeah sure : I guess : Marines are bad, Reaper are bad Medivac are bad Tank are bad (just 13 range, and 70 dmg) Wm are bad Liberators are bad Raven are bad And adept bad, Immortals bad, Phoenix bad, chargelots bad, archons bad, Hight templar bad, Disruptor bad, DT bad, WP bad, Carrier bad. Why don't you switch to zerg, we'll see if you will become the first sc2 player of the world as Zerg so easy and so strong ? ah you're right all t and p units are ridicolously strong while z units are all garbage and need to be buffed. my bad how couldn't I see it.. thanks for reminding me why I want to get out of those balance discussions
No, you're missing the point zerg need strong units to deal with the strong units of the other race.
It's not a big deal for you that terran has acess to a 13 range unit with just a factory ?
Zerg must tech hive in order to get vipers and get a tank counter, but you can't make vikings or HT to counter vipers ?
You want that zerg have to wait broodlords tech to have something able to counter tanks ?
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I think they ought to leave the game alone for a while and see what happens.
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On December 05 2016 05:20 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2016 05:06 Charoisaur wrote:On December 05 2016 04:52 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 04 2016 03:40 Charoisaur wrote:On December 03 2016 22:46 PharaphobiaSC wrote:On December 03 2016 21:52 Charoisaur wrote:On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone There's a difference between "good" and "too good". Zerg has plenty of good units. The viper in its current state is too good against terran mech and air. because of its strength the raven needed to be buffed again and now tvz lategame is all about massing OP spellcasters. Can you name me two good units? We are getting rekt by anything in lategame... If you don't think zerg has any good units I won't be able to convince you otherwise so I don't even bother. Btw terran has no good units and protoss has no good units. Yeah sure : I guess : Marines are bad, Reaper are bad Medivac are bad Tank are bad (just 13 range, and 70 dmg) Wm are bad Liberators are bad Raven are bad And adept bad, Immortals bad, Phoenix bad, chargelots bad, archons bad, Hight templar bad, Disruptor bad, DT bad, WP bad, Carrier bad. Why don't you switch to zerg, we'll see if you will become the first sc2 player of the world as Zerg so easy and so strong ? ah you're right all t and p units are ridicolously strong while z units are all garbage and need to be buffed. my bad how couldn't I see it.. thanks for reminding me why I want to get out of those balance discussions No, you're missing the point zerg need strong units to deal with the strong units of the other race. It's not a big deal for you that terran has acess to a 13 range unit with just a factory ? Zerg must tech hive in order to get vipers and get a tank counter, but you can't make vikings or HT to counter vipers ? You want that zerg have to wait broodlords tech to have something able to counter tanks ?
vikings don't counter vipers anymore.
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Vipers are problematic in regards to balance because they ignore terrain and counter positional play simultaneously. If they wanna nerf em they should put em behind a tech wall with some upgrades. Zerg really needs a powerful caster and the viper does it but I understand why it's hard to get right. While it is strong it's definitely not unbeatable and every race has an equally powerful answer.
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On December 05 2016 05:20 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2016 05:06 Charoisaur wrote:On December 05 2016 04:52 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 04 2016 03:40 Charoisaur wrote:On December 03 2016 22:46 PharaphobiaSC wrote:On December 03 2016 21:52 Charoisaur wrote:On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone There's a difference between "good" and "too good". Zerg has plenty of good units. The viper in its current state is too good against terran mech and air. because of its strength the raven needed to be buffed again and now tvz lategame is all about massing OP spellcasters. Can you name me two good units? We are getting rekt by anything in lategame... If you don't think zerg has any good units I won't be able to convince you otherwise so I don't even bother. Btw terran has no good units and protoss has no good units. Yeah sure : I guess : Marines are bad, Reaper are bad Medivac are bad Tank are bad (just 13 range, and 70 dmg) Wm are bad Liberators are bad Raven are bad And adept bad, Immortals bad, Phoenix bad, chargelots bad, archons bad, Hight templar bad, Disruptor bad, DT bad, WP bad, Carrier bad. Why don't you switch to zerg, we'll see if you will become the first sc2 player of the world as Zerg so easy and so strong ? ah you're right all t and p units are ridicolously strong while z units are all garbage and need to be buffed. my bad how couldn't I see it.. thanks for reminding me why I want to get out of those balance discussions No, you're missing the point zerg need strong units to deal with the strong units of the other race. It's not a big deal for you that terran has acess to a 13 range unit with just a factory ? Zerg must tech hive in order to get vipers and get a tank counter, but you can't make vikings or HT to counter vipers ? You want that zerg have to wait broodlords tech to have something able to counter tanks ?
I can't decide whether this is excellent trolling, or pointless whine. Every unit in the zerg tech tree is used by pros, and zerg isn't underperforming (zerg might even be OP as a whole with the many buffs they recieved with 3.8). Not a single zerg unit is bad at the moment.
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On December 05 2016 06:33 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2016 05:20 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 05 2016 05:06 Charoisaur wrote:On December 05 2016 04:52 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 04 2016 03:40 Charoisaur wrote:On December 03 2016 22:46 PharaphobiaSC wrote:On December 03 2016 21:52 Charoisaur wrote:On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone There's a difference between "good" and "too good". Zerg has plenty of good units. The viper in its current state is too good against terran mech and air. because of its strength the raven needed to be buffed again and now tvz lategame is all about massing OP spellcasters. Can you name me two good units? We are getting rekt by anything in lategame... If you don't think zerg has any good units I won't be able to convince you otherwise so I don't even bother. Btw terran has no good units and protoss has no good units. Yeah sure : I guess : Marines are bad, Reaper are bad Medivac are bad Tank are bad (just 13 range, and 70 dmg) Wm are bad Liberators are bad Raven are bad And adept bad, Immortals bad, Phoenix bad, chargelots bad, archons bad, Hight templar bad, Disruptor bad, DT bad, WP bad, Carrier bad. Why don't you switch to zerg, we'll see if you will become the first sc2 player of the world as Zerg so easy and so strong ? ah you're right all t and p units are ridicolously strong while z units are all garbage and need to be buffed. my bad how couldn't I see it.. thanks for reminding me why I want to get out of those balance discussions No, you're missing the point zerg need strong units to deal with the strong units of the other race. It's not a big deal for you that terran has acess to a 13 range unit with just a factory ? Zerg must tech hive in order to get vipers and get a tank counter, but you can't make vikings or HT to counter vipers ? You want that zerg have to wait broodlords tech to have something able to counter tanks ? I can't decide whether this is excellent trolling, or pointless whine. Every unit in the zerg tech tree is used by pros, and zerg isn't underperforming (zerg might even be OP as a whole with the many buffs they recieved with 3.8). Not a single zerg unit is bad at the moment.
He has a valid point, while your doesn't. He wasn't even talking about the fact whether Z units are each good or bad. He's talking about why it requires Z to tech to T3 just to counter Terran's T2 unit, which makes 0 sense to me either. Terrans have the best of everything already - most flexibility, safest protection against all-ins, most cost efficient units, and now you're whining because he's bringing up a legit point about how Z needs superior tech unit + investment to beat a T lower tech unit?
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So does anyone know if they are planning to correct this patch and address:
swarmhosts
hydralisks
vipers
infestor burrow cast
invincible nydus
adept shades
warp prisms
mass ravens
mech anti-air
mass reapers
????
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I've stopped playing SC2 up to a month after immortal nerf. The game is getting some major balance patches, so if I decide to learn it again, is there too much to learn? I play protoss.
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On December 05 2016 05:20 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2016 05:06 Charoisaur wrote:On December 05 2016 04:52 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 04 2016 03:40 Charoisaur wrote:On December 03 2016 22:46 PharaphobiaSC wrote:On December 03 2016 21:52 Charoisaur wrote:On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone There's a difference between "good" and "too good". Zerg has plenty of good units. The viper in its current state is too good against terran mech and air. because of its strength the raven needed to be buffed again and now tvz lategame is all about massing OP spellcasters. Can you name me two good units? We are getting rekt by anything in lategame... If you don't think zerg has any good units I won't be able to convince you otherwise so I don't even bother. Btw terran has no good units and protoss has no good units. Yeah sure : I guess : Marines are bad, Reaper are bad Medivac are bad Tank are bad (just 13 range, and 70 dmg) Wm are bad Liberators are bad Raven are bad And adept bad, Immortals bad, Phoenix bad, chargelots bad, archons bad, Hight templar bad, Disruptor bad, DT bad, WP bad, Carrier bad. Why don't you switch to zerg, we'll see if you will become the first sc2 player of the world as Zerg so easy and so strong ? ah you're right all t and p units are ridicolously strong while z units are all garbage and need to be buffed. my bad how couldn't I see it.. thanks for reminding me why I want to get out of those balance discussions No, you're missing the point zerg need strong units to deal with the strong units of the other race. It's not a big deal for you that terran has acess to a 13 range unit with just a factory ? Zerg must tech hive in order to get vipers and get a tank counter, but you can't make vikings or HT to counter vipers ? You want that zerg have to wait broodlords tech to have something able to counter tanks ?
For unit that is (fianlly) strong the tank also has many weaknesses.
Fight them out of position.
Attack at different places to force resieges.
Nydus worms.
Overlord drops.
Hydras well spread and in a concave decimate tanks.
Lings are obviously greath but again it comes to how you take fights since theres bound to be hellbats.
And obiously, SH a T2 unit that cost only 100/75/2.
Sure a bunch of these options aren't as good as others but tanks are not some godtier unit that can only be countered by mass air armies.
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On December 03 2016 07:20 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2016 06:35 Liquid`Snute wrote:
Can't colossus start with 7 range instead of 6? What about trimming off 15-20% of thermal lance time?
Modifying damage to 12+4 light is so extreme, what about +2 vs light damage and take it from there?
I would also bring Interceptor cost up to 10 (at least). It trades too well at max and killing interceptors isn't even an option now. Only to win by the no-interceptors-left-push-forward condition. Carrier should spawn with 8 interceptors too because they are too weak initially. You already spent a century building the thing so it should spawn with 8. Gravaton catapult upgrade should be removed and launch fire rate should be put somewhere betwen before and after upgrades. For defensive purposes, carriers should be able to build interceptors faster, especially if you reduce the launch fire rate I think this would help battles become more fair. Carrier strength is too binary.
About Viper. It HAS TO stay strong for Zerg to be able to defeat mech especially on medium size maps such as overgrowth.
Tweaking values won't change the fact that zerg is doing one of these:
- Attacking head on with a big sky zerg/viper/transfuse based army, bursting out all spells
- Taking small hit and run trades using viper spells and Consume continously (combos well with swarm host)
Simply nerfing the viper abilities won't solve the identity crisis of the viper. The unit by design is created to be in one of those modes and consume ENCOURAGES hit and run/over time play. If you remove that, you force straight up fights and thus possibly stale board state up until the point of combat. What do they want? A mobile hit and run ninja unit, or a big support caster for grand broodlord/corruptor/infestor viper? Because right now there is no doubt that Mass Raven destroys sky-zerg and that Mass Viper/Hydra/Swarmhost kill-them-before-they-get-there taking free trades is better. I do think Terran lategame is stronger than Zerg but it's impossible for them to reach that stage. So one should work on fixing both. Viper has been OP for years now. If anything parasitic bomb made it god tier and should never have been added because it makes vikings useless as a counter. Honestly both vipers and ravens needed to have their supply increased to around 4 years ago. These units are too cost efficient and the issue is when you get 10+ of either of them they take over the entire game. Making them cost more supply means you'd be able to get less of them in a maxed out army. TBH let's just all be real here - they are scapegoating random units now because they don't want to admit they made a massive mistake with the hydra, swarmhost, and infestor buffs. These units are at absurd levels of imbalance right now. Rather than make more problems by buffing collosus and nerfing vipers, they should revert all of the ridiculous Zerg changes they made and just admit they were wrong and made a mistake. Too bad we know that won't happen.
land your afflicted vikings, move the rest of them away.
or do the fake landing nathanias does.
or split because you have 10 fingers and I assume you play with a mouse.
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On December 05 2016 08:19 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2016 05:20 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 05 2016 05:06 Charoisaur wrote:On December 05 2016 04:52 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 04 2016 03:40 Charoisaur wrote:On December 03 2016 22:46 PharaphobiaSC wrote:On December 03 2016 21:52 Charoisaur wrote:On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone There's a difference between "good" and "too good". Zerg has plenty of good units. The viper in its current state is too good against terran mech and air. because of its strength the raven needed to be buffed again and now tvz lategame is all about massing OP spellcasters. Can you name me two good units? We are getting rekt by anything in lategame... If you don't think zerg has any good units I won't be able to convince you otherwise so I don't even bother. Btw terran has no good units and protoss has no good units. Yeah sure : I guess : Marines are bad, Reaper are bad Medivac are bad Tank are bad (just 13 range, and 70 dmg) Wm are bad Liberators are bad Raven are bad And adept bad, Immortals bad, Phoenix bad, chargelots bad, archons bad, Hight templar bad, Disruptor bad, DT bad, WP bad, Carrier bad. Why don't you switch to zerg, we'll see if you will become the first sc2 player of the world as Zerg so easy and so strong ? ah you're right all t and p units are ridicolously strong while z units are all garbage and need to be buffed. my bad how couldn't I see it.. thanks for reminding me why I want to get out of those balance discussions No, you're missing the point zerg need strong units to deal with the strong units of the other race. It's not a big deal for you that terran has acess to a 13 range unit with just a factory ? Zerg must tech hive in order to get vipers and get a tank counter, but you can't make vikings or HT to counter vipers ? You want that zerg have to wait broodlords tech to have something able to counter tanks ? For unit that is (fianlly) strong the tank also has many weaknesses. Fight them out of position. Attack at different places to force resieges. Nydus worms. Overlord drops. Hydras well spread and in a concave decimate tanks. Lings are obviously greath but again it comes to how you take fights since theres bound to be hellbats. And obiously, SH a T2 unit that cost only 100/75/2. Sure a bunch of these options aren't as good as others but tanks are not some godtier unit that can only be countered by mass air armies.
And then put those tanks behind a gauntlet of liberators, widow mines, vikings, hellbats (heck, even ravens now), and none of those strategies work.
How absurd is it that instead of simply adjusting to a unit that evens the playing field, we have to hear incessant complaining from people who know one strategy that used to automatically win and it doesn't work the way it used to. Literally just a couple ghosts with snipe would deter the Zerg from poking in with the vipers. Such an easy unit to build tech-wise (yes, even when playing mech), and provides a one shot kill with greater range than the abduct. Wow! But, you know, I guess it's easier for most people to complain for years until Blizzard changes the game. If this one build I want to do doesn't work, it's not MY fault, the GAME must be unfair.
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On December 05 2016 09:29 _AK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2016 08:19 Lexender wrote:On December 05 2016 05:20 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 05 2016 05:06 Charoisaur wrote:On December 05 2016 04:52 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 04 2016 03:40 Charoisaur wrote:On December 03 2016 22:46 PharaphobiaSC wrote:On December 03 2016 21:52 Charoisaur wrote:On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone There's a difference between "good" and "too good". Zerg has plenty of good units. The viper in its current state is too good against terran mech and air. because of its strength the raven needed to be buffed again and now tvz lategame is all about massing OP spellcasters. Can you name me two good units? We are getting rekt by anything in lategame... If you don't think zerg has any good units I won't be able to convince you otherwise so I don't even bother. Btw terran has no good units and protoss has no good units. Yeah sure : I guess : Marines are bad, Reaper are bad Medivac are bad Tank are bad (just 13 range, and 70 dmg) Wm are bad Liberators are bad Raven are bad And adept bad, Immortals bad, Phoenix bad, chargelots bad, archons bad, Hight templar bad, Disruptor bad, DT bad, WP bad, Carrier bad. Why don't you switch to zerg, we'll see if you will become the first sc2 player of the world as Zerg so easy and so strong ? ah you're right all t and p units are ridicolously strong while z units are all garbage and need to be buffed. my bad how couldn't I see it.. thanks for reminding me why I want to get out of those balance discussions No, you're missing the point zerg need strong units to deal with the strong units of the other race. It's not a big deal for you that terran has acess to a 13 range unit with just a factory ? Zerg must tech hive in order to get vipers and get a tank counter, but you can't make vikings or HT to counter vipers ? You want that zerg have to wait broodlords tech to have something able to counter tanks ? For unit that is (fianlly) strong the tank also has many weaknesses. Fight them out of position. Attack at different places to force resieges. Nydus worms. Overlord drops. Hydras well spread and in a concave decimate tanks. Lings are obviously greath but again it comes to how you take fights since theres bound to be hellbats. And obiously, SH a T2 unit that cost only 100/75/2. Sure a bunch of these options aren't as good as others but tanks are not some godtier unit that can only be countered by mass air armies. And then put those tanks behind a gauntlet of liberators, widow mines, vikings, hellbats (heck, even ravens now), and none of those strategies work.
Thats has nothing to do with the situation that was being discussed.
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On December 05 2016 07:56 avilo wrote:
So does anyone know if they are planning to correct this patch and address:
swarmhosts
hydralisks
vipers
infestor burrow cast
invincible nydus
adept shades
warp prisms
mass ravens
mech anti-air
mass reapers
????
They planning to continue ignoring you which seems to be best idea they ever had :^)
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Why do they refuse to give Colossus default range? It would both open mid game tech variety and discourage late game Colossi massing than a straight damage buff would.
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Don't buff colossi you mad men
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Maybe Don Draper is on the balance team.
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On December 05 2016 07:26 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2016 06:33 JackONeill wrote:On December 05 2016 05:20 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 05 2016 05:06 Charoisaur wrote:On December 05 2016 04:52 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 04 2016 03:40 Charoisaur wrote:On December 03 2016 22:46 PharaphobiaSC wrote:On December 03 2016 21:52 Charoisaur wrote:On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone There's a difference between "good" and "too good". Zerg has plenty of good units. The viper in its current state is too good against terran mech and air. because of its strength the raven needed to be buffed again and now tvz lategame is all about massing OP spellcasters. Can you name me two good units? We are getting rekt by anything in lategame... If you don't think zerg has any good units I won't be able to convince you otherwise so I don't even bother. Btw terran has no good units and protoss has no good units. Yeah sure : I guess : Marines are bad, Reaper are bad Medivac are bad Tank are bad (just 13 range, and 70 dmg) Wm are bad Liberators are bad Raven are bad And adept bad, Immortals bad, Phoenix bad, chargelots bad, archons bad, Hight templar bad, Disruptor bad, DT bad, WP bad, Carrier bad. Why don't you switch to zerg, we'll see if you will become the first sc2 player of the world as Zerg so easy and so strong ? ah you're right all t and p units are ridicolously strong while z units are all garbage and need to be buffed. my bad how couldn't I see it.. thanks for reminding me why I want to get out of those balance discussions No, you're missing the point zerg need strong units to deal with the strong units of the other race. It's not a big deal for you that terran has acess to a 13 range unit with just a factory ? Zerg must tech hive in order to get vipers and get a tank counter, but you can't make vikings or HT to counter vipers ? You want that zerg have to wait broodlords tech to have something able to counter tanks ? I can't decide whether this is excellent trolling, or pointless whine. Every unit in the zerg tech tree is used by pros, and zerg isn't underperforming (zerg might even be OP as a whole with the many buffs they recieved with 3.8). Not a single zerg unit is bad at the moment. He has a valid point, while your doesn't. He wasn't even talking about the fact whether Z units are each good or bad. He's talking about why it requires Z to tech to T3 just to counter Terran's T2 unit, which makes 0 sense to me either. Terrans have the best of everything already - most flexibility, safest protection against all-ins, most cost efficient units, and now you're whining because he's bringing up a legit point about how Z needs superior tech unit + investment to beat a T lower tech unit?
How clueless about the game do you have to be for whining about terran vs zerg tech trees? How many BCs, thors, even ghosts have you seen recently in TvZ pro games? How many terrans have you seen winning after T3 was out for zerg before the 3.8?
Having to tech up isn't necessarly a weakness. Hydras (pre-patch and post-patch) shred thors and BCs : T2>T3. Swaths of lings counter cyclones : T1>T2. Corruptors counter BCs, T2>T3. Now do you want me too to go "booohoo hoo terran terran tech is getting destroyed by zerg basic units OP OP OP"?
No because that's how the game works. Tech prevents how early and how massable an unit is. I doesn't prevent lower tech units from dealing with it. Are you gonna cry over T2 immortals countering T3 ultras and thors next?
Zerg got insane buffs going their way for this patch. Crying about it, when by every metric you can find zerg is doing extremely well with 3.8, is at an unreachable level of bias.
And terran got buffs too, and some of them are too strong : the 24 dmg turret is ridiculous, and the cyclone cheeses, that are already too strong, are gonna get even worse with the next patch.
Protoss got the short end of the stick, and frankly there isn't much protoss whine because they all left, which is understandable when PvZ is in the state it is.
So stop denying yourself any kind of perspective about how the game works as a whole, go play terran or protoss on the ladder, and come back maybe, just maybe, a little more informed.
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On December 05 2016 08:33 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2016 07:20 avilo wrote:On December 03 2016 06:35 Liquid`Snute wrote:
Can't colossus start with 7 range instead of 6? What about trimming off 15-20% of thermal lance time?
Modifying damage to 12+4 light is so extreme, what about +2 vs light damage and take it from there?
I would also bring Interceptor cost up to 10 (at least). It trades too well at max and killing interceptors isn't even an option now. Only to win by the no-interceptors-left-push-forward condition. Carrier should spawn with 8 interceptors too because they are too weak initially. You already spent a century building the thing so it should spawn with 8. Gravaton catapult upgrade should be removed and launch fire rate should be put somewhere betwen before and after upgrades. For defensive purposes, carriers should be able to build interceptors faster, especially if you reduce the launch fire rate I think this would help battles become more fair. Carrier strength is too binary.
About Viper. It HAS TO stay strong for Zerg to be able to defeat mech especially on medium size maps such as overgrowth.
Tweaking values won't change the fact that zerg is doing one of these:
- Attacking head on with a big sky zerg/viper/transfuse based army, bursting out all spells
- Taking small hit and run trades using viper spells and Consume continously (combos well with swarm host)
Simply nerfing the viper abilities won't solve the identity crisis of the viper. The unit by design is created to be in one of those modes and consume ENCOURAGES hit and run/over time play. If you remove that, you force straight up fights and thus possibly stale board state up until the point of combat. What do they want? A mobile hit and run ninja unit, or a big support caster for grand broodlord/corruptor/infestor viper? Because right now there is no doubt that Mass Raven destroys sky-zerg and that Mass Viper/Hydra/Swarmhost kill-them-before-they-get-there taking free trades is better. I do think Terran lategame is stronger than Zerg but it's impossible for them to reach that stage. So one should work on fixing both. Viper has been OP for years now. If anything parasitic bomb made it god tier and should never have been added because it makes vikings useless as a counter. Honestly both vipers and ravens needed to have their supply increased to around 4 years ago. These units are too cost efficient and the issue is when you get 10+ of either of them they take over the entire game. Making them cost more supply means you'd be able to get less of them in a maxed out army. TBH let's just all be real here - they are scapegoating random units now because they don't want to admit they made a massive mistake with the hydra, swarmhost, and infestor buffs. These units are at absurd levels of imbalance right now. Rather than make more problems by buffing collosus and nerfing vipers, they should revert all of the ridiculous Zerg changes they made and just admit they were wrong and made a mistake. Too bad we know that won't happen. land your afflicted vikings, move the rest of them away. or do the fake landing nathanias does. or split because you have 10 fingers and I assume you play with a mouse.
I thought they already patched out the Viking fake landing interaction with Parasitic Bomb after the last patch
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I reckon they should find a new role for the Swarm Host, before changing to much of other units like the Viper.
The issue is that they gave the Viper 4 spells suddenly, it's no surprise that this unit is way too all purpose and that getting too many of these is almost never a mistake. This is a unit that already defied all logic and didn't get it's own Tech Building, since initially it was meant as a Detector unit.
I think it should definitely give 1 of it's spells to another unit, though I'm not sure which yet, this depends on what the Swarm Host ends up being.
5 Cost Interceptor and the idea that we can deal with smaller numbers than 25, suddenly gives the Swarm Host potential.
Imagine a Swarm Host which is not idle for 80% of the time, amazing right?!
Swarm Host could get an auto-toggle ability, which spawns Eggs on the Swarm Host's back, 1 pr. 10 sec or so and it costs 5-10 Minerals. There would be a max number of Eggs on it's back, lets say 5.
Then you have 3 spawn abilities, which spends ALL of your eggs on the unit you select. 1. is Scourge (cheap anti air.) 2. is Burrow Locusts (Harassment tool, does heavy damage to buildings.) 3. is Broodlings (mass spawn army, completely gets destroyed by splash damage.)
Mb it's too much, but there's much more potential for this unit when there's cost, since it removes the issue of having 4 hour games, thereby no need to heavily under stat the unit in the first place.
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Russian Federation473 Posts
well i love mech but i feel they went too far this time
out of 10 games played after 3.8 i won 10
tanks seem unbreakable, you defend everything, expand to 4-5 bases, build up a bc fleet, and win
i know i'm only diamond, but 10/10 means something
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Russian Federation473 Posts
battlecruisers en masse are truly invincible, at least in tvt
kill stuff with yamato, teleport behind tank& turret lines, repair, repeat after 71 s
or just kill with brute force
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On December 05 2016 18:53 Ganseng wrote:
well i love mech but i feel they went too far this time
out of 10 games played after 3.8 i won 10
tanks seem unbreakable, you defend everything, expand to 4-5 bases, build up a bc fleet, and win
i know i'm only diamond, but 10/10 means something
Keep playing then, you'll hit masters soon with your 10/10 win rate and then you'll understand how broken Zerg Hive tech is vs Mech when you start playing vs competent Zerg players.
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Demotions on ladder this season
There was some discussion/confusion regarding demotions at the start of this season so we wanted to provide some clarification. Last season was the first time that we bootstrapped your off-races to the MMR of your main race due to the introduction of separate MMR per race. This potentially caused players to rank higher than their actual skill level on their off-races. At the start of this season, the boundaries automatically adjusted to the correct values, so many players at the higher levels of the ladder were seeing lower ranks than they did toward the end of last season. We expect player rankings to continue becoming more accurate over time.
Can someone ELI5 to me? I don't get it
Edit: Nvm, this graph explains it all: http://www.rankedftw.com/stats/leagues/1v1/#v=2&r=0&sx=a
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On December 05 2016 17:39 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2016 07:26 parkufarku wrote:On December 05 2016 06:33 JackONeill wrote:On December 05 2016 05:20 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 05 2016 05:06 Charoisaur wrote:On December 05 2016 04:52 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 04 2016 03:40 Charoisaur wrote:On December 03 2016 22:46 PharaphobiaSC wrote:On December 03 2016 21:52 Charoisaur wrote:On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone There's a difference between "good" and "too good". Zerg has plenty of good units. The viper in its current state is too good against terran mech and air. because of its strength the raven needed to be buffed again and now tvz lategame is all about massing OP spellcasters. Can you name me two good units? We are getting rekt by anything in lategame... If you don't think zerg has any good units I won't be able to convince you otherwise so I don't even bother. Btw terran has no good units and protoss has no good units. Yeah sure : I guess : Marines are bad, Reaper are bad Medivac are bad Tank are bad (just 13 range, and 70 dmg) Wm are bad Liberators are bad Raven are bad And adept bad, Immortals bad, Phoenix bad, chargelots bad, archons bad, Hight templar bad, Disruptor bad, DT bad, WP bad, Carrier bad. Why don't you switch to zerg, we'll see if you will become the first sc2 player of the world as Zerg so easy and so strong ? ah you're right all t and p units are ridicolously strong while z units are all garbage and need to be buffed. my bad how couldn't I see it.. thanks for reminding me why I want to get out of those balance discussions No, you're missing the point zerg need strong units to deal with the strong units of the other race. It's not a big deal for you that terran has acess to a 13 range unit with just a factory ? Zerg must tech hive in order to get vipers and get a tank counter, but you can't make vikings or HT to counter vipers ? You want that zerg have to wait broodlords tech to have something able to counter tanks ? I can't decide whether this is excellent trolling, or pointless whine. Every unit in the zerg tech tree is used by pros, and zerg isn't underperforming (zerg might even be OP as a whole with the many buffs they recieved with 3.8). Not a single zerg unit is bad at the moment. He has a valid point, while your doesn't. He wasn't even talking about the fact whether Z units are each good or bad. He's talking about why it requires Z to tech to T3 just to counter Terran's T2 unit, which makes 0 sense to me either. Terrans have the best of everything already - most flexibility, safest protection against all-ins, most cost efficient units, and now you're whining because he's bringing up a legit point about how Z needs superior tech unit + investment to beat a T lower tech unit? No because that's how the game works. Tech prevents how early and how massable an unit is.
Exactly, and that's why viper should prevent Terran massing tanks.
Tanks crush all the ground units, and need some counter.
What terrans are doing right now is like if zergs had ultras with 8 armor back, and would have claimed ghost should be nerfed.
On December 05 2016 17:39 JackONeill wrote:
Zerg got insane buffs going their way for this patch. Crying about it, when by every metric you can find zerg is doing extremely well with 3.8, is at an unreachable level of bias.
Where zerg are doing fine ?
IEM Season XI - Gyeonggi qualifier :
Maru-Rogue 2-0
TY-Hyun 2-0
Alive-curious 2-0
Jjackji-Scarlett 2-0
TOP-Snute 2-1
SGL Cup 6 :
herO-Dark 2-1
You have an unreachable level of bias, and you don't provide any facts or real arguments, but just be agressive towards zerg players, and call who don't agree with you "troll"
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On December 06 2016 02:13 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2016 17:39 JackONeill wrote:On December 05 2016 07:26 parkufarku wrote:On December 05 2016 06:33 JackONeill wrote:On December 05 2016 05:20 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 05 2016 05:06 Charoisaur wrote:On December 05 2016 04:52 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 04 2016 03:40 Charoisaur wrote:On December 03 2016 22:46 PharaphobiaSC wrote:On December 03 2016 21:52 Charoisaur wrote:
[quote]
There's a difference between "good" and "too good".
Zerg has plenty of good units. The viper in its current state is too good against terran mech and air.
because of its strength the raven needed to be buffed again and now tvz lategame is all about massing OP spellcasters.
Can you name me two good units? We are getting rekt by anything in lategame... If you don't think zerg has any good units I won't be able to convince you otherwise so I don't even bother. Btw terran has no good units and protoss has no good units. Yeah sure : I guess : Marines are bad, Reaper are bad Medivac are bad Tank are bad (just 13 range, and 70 dmg) Wm are bad Liberators are bad Raven are bad And adept bad, Immortals bad, Phoenix bad, chargelots bad, archons bad, Hight templar bad, Disruptor bad, DT bad, WP bad, Carrier bad. Why don't you switch to zerg, we'll see if you will become the first sc2 player of the world as Zerg so easy and so strong ? ah you're right all t and p units are ridicolously strong while z units are all garbage and need to be buffed. my bad how couldn't I see it.. thanks for reminding me why I want to get out of those balance discussions No, you're missing the point zerg need strong units to deal with the strong units of the other race. It's not a big deal for you that terran has acess to a 13 range unit with just a factory ? Zerg must tech hive in order to get vipers and get a tank counter, but you can't make vikings or HT to counter vipers ? You want that zerg have to wait broodlords tech to have something able to counter tanks ? I can't decide whether this is excellent trolling, or pointless whine. Every unit in the zerg tech tree is used by pros, and zerg isn't underperforming (zerg might even be OP as a whole with the many buffs they recieved with 3.8). Not a single zerg unit is bad at the moment. He has a valid point, while your doesn't. He wasn't even talking about the fact whether Z units are each good or bad. He's talking about why it requires Z to tech to T3 just to counter Terran's T2 unit, which makes 0 sense to me either. Terrans have the best of everything already - most flexibility, safest protection against all-ins, most cost efficient units, and now you're whining because he's bringing up a legit point about how Z needs superior tech unit + investment to beat a T lower tech unit? No because that's how the game works. Tech prevents how early and how massable an unit is. Exactly, and that's why viper should prevent Terran massing tanks. Tanks crush all the ground units, and need some counter. What terrans are doing right now is like if zergs had ultras with 8 armor back, and would have claimed ghost should be nerfed. Show nested quote +On December 05 2016 17:39 JackONeill wrote:
Zerg got insane buffs going their way for this patch. Crying about it, when by every metric you can find zerg is doing extremely well with 3.8, is at an unreachable level of bias.
Where zerg are doing fine ? IEM Season XI - Gyeonggi qualifier : Maru-Rogue 2-0 TY-Hyun 2-0 Alive-curious 2-0 Jjackji-Scarlett 2-0 TOP-Snute 2-1 SGL Cup 6 : herO-Dark 2-1 You have an unreachable level of bias, and you don't provide any facts or real arguments, but just be agressive towards zerg players, and call who don't agree with you "troll"
Yeah because stating "you don't provide arguments" and "you're biased" are such incredibly strong... arguments.
Are you mentionning the online qualifier where (according to liquipedia) 6 zergs passed, for 3 terrans and 3 protosses, when 15 terrans entered the qualifier, 12 protosses and 12 zergs? Yeah seems to me zerg is doing very poorly indeed.
And I also can handpick BO3 results to match my "extremely unbiased opinon" (byul 2-0 bunny and major, soo 2-0 billowy)... if i was so unbiased i didn't take into account that byul is much better than bunny and major, and that soo is much better than billowy ; just like Maru, TY and Alive are arguably some of the best terran players at the moment, and that korean victories against foreigners aren't that big of a surprise.
Okay enough with the irony. To be fair i didn't watch the qualifiers, but i'm gonna go full psychic and suppose that the TvZ wins were relying much on mech play, and that therefore vipers weren't used much. Feel free to correct me though, as i said i'm hypothesizing.
So when zerg's anti mech play recieved nothing but buffs (except for BL range maybe) with 3.8, the patch that was supposed to make mech viable, i'm really waiting for some pro TvZ games where the terran player wins with a non-cheesy mech style.
And if there's none to be found, maybe, just maybe that the very dominant zerg caster against mech being discussed to get nerfed is based on something. And by the way, no one said that vipers weren't needed for zerg. They're a legitimate counter to tank and turret lines, and as I stated many times before, i feel that blinding cloud is a very legit ability. My beef is with the abduct.
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On December 06 2016 03:36 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2016 02:13 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 05 2016 17:39 JackONeill wrote:On December 05 2016 07:26 parkufarku wrote:On December 05 2016 06:33 JackONeill wrote:On December 05 2016 05:20 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 05 2016 05:06 Charoisaur wrote:On December 05 2016 04:52 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 04 2016 03:40 Charoisaur wrote:On December 03 2016 22:46 PharaphobiaSC wrote:
[quote]
Can you name me two good units? We are getting rekt by anything in lategame... If you don't think zerg has any good units I won't be able to convince you otherwise so I don't even bother. Btw terran has no good units and protoss has no good units. Yeah sure : I guess : Marines are bad, Reaper are bad Medivac are bad Tank are bad (just 13 range, and 70 dmg) Wm are bad Liberators are bad Raven are bad And adept bad, Immortals bad, Phoenix bad, chargelots bad, archons bad, Hight templar bad, Disruptor bad, DT bad, WP bad, Carrier bad. Why don't you switch to zerg, we'll see if you will become the first sc2 player of the world as Zerg so easy and so strong ? ah you're right all t and p units are ridicolously strong while z units are all garbage and need to be buffed. my bad how couldn't I see it.. thanks for reminding me why I want to get out of those balance discussions No, you're missing the point zerg need strong units to deal with the strong units of the other race. It's not a big deal for you that terran has acess to a 13 range unit with just a factory ? Zerg must tech hive in order to get vipers and get a tank counter, but you can't make vikings or HT to counter vipers ? You want that zerg have to wait broodlords tech to have something able to counter tanks ? I can't decide whether this is excellent trolling, or pointless whine. Every unit in the zerg tech tree is used by pros, and zerg isn't underperforming (zerg might even be OP as a whole with the many buffs they recieved with 3.8). Not a single zerg unit is bad at the moment. He has a valid point, while your doesn't. He wasn't even talking about the fact whether Z units are each good or bad. He's talking about why it requires Z to tech to T3 just to counter Terran's T2 unit, which makes 0 sense to me either. Terrans have the best of everything already - most flexibility, safest protection against all-ins, most cost efficient units, and now you're whining because he's bringing up a legit point about how Z needs superior tech unit + investment to beat a T lower tech unit? No because that's how the game works. Tech prevents how early and how massable an unit is. Exactly, and that's why viper should prevent Terran massing tanks. Tanks crush all the ground units, and need some counter. What terrans are doing right now is like if zergs had ultras with 8 armor back, and would have claimed ghost should be nerfed. On December 05 2016 17:39 JackONeill wrote:
Zerg got insane buffs going their way for this patch. Crying about it, when by every metric you can find zerg is doing extremely well with 3.8, is at an unreachable level of bias.
Where zerg are doing fine ? IEM Season XI - Gyeonggi qualifier : Maru-Rogue 2-0 TY-Hyun 2-0 Alive-curious 2-0 Jjackji-Scarlett 2-0 TOP-Snute 2-1 SGL Cup 6 : herO-Dark 2-1 You have an unreachable level of bias, and you don't provide any facts or real arguments, but just be agressive towards zerg players, and call who don't agree with you "troll" Yeah because stating "you don't provide arguments" and "you're biased" are such incredibly strong... arguments. Are you mentionning the online qualifier where (according to liquipedia) 6 zergs passed, for 3 terrans and 3 protosses, when 15 terrans entered the qualifier, 12 protosses and 12 zergs? Yeah seems to me zerg is doing very poorly indeed. And I also can handpick BO3 results to match my "extremely unbiased opinon" (byul 2-0 bunny and major, soo 2-0 billowy)... if i was so unbiased i didn't take into account that byul is much better than bunny and major, and that soo is much better than billowy ; just like Maru, TY and Alive are arguably some of the best terran players at the moment, and that korean victories against foreigners aren't that big of a surprise. Okay enough with the irony. To be fair i didn't watch the qualifiers, but i'm gonna go full psychic and suppose that the TvZ wins were relying much on mech play, and that therefore vipers weren't used much. Feel free to correct me though, as i said i'm hypothesizing. So when zerg's anti mech play recieved nothing but buffs (except for BL range maybe) with 3.8, the patch that was supposed to make mech viable, i'm really waiting for some pro TvZ games where the terran player wins with a non-cheesy mech style. And if there's none to be found, maybe, just maybe that the very dominant zerg caster against mech being discussed to get nerfed is based on something. And by the way, no one said that vipers weren't needed for zerg. They're a legitimate counter to tank and turret lines, and as I stated many times before, i feel that blinding cloud is a very legit ability. My beef is with the abduct.
He is just being disingenuous. No Terran player qualified using mech in TvZ. They all played basicaly the same style used pre-3.8 - Bio/mines/tank/libs. Viper's blinding cloud is not even used vs Bio, therefore a nerf in blinding cloud is definitely ok. In fact, the only pro player I've seen using mech in tournaments was Gumiho. Look how far he went in those tournaments.
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Like artyK said, removing consume ability of vipers would allow to keep current BC and abduct but without the possibility to spam which is imho the best way to deal with the problem.
A fine tuning of gain of energy overtime is possible to reduce the nerf of the consume removal, but I would definitely prefer this option
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On December 06 2016 03:45 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2016 03:36 JackONeill wrote:On December 06 2016 02:13 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 05 2016 17:39 JackONeill wrote:On December 05 2016 07:26 parkufarku wrote:On December 05 2016 06:33 JackONeill wrote:On December 05 2016 05:20 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 05 2016 05:06 Charoisaur wrote:On December 05 2016 04:52 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 04 2016 03:40 Charoisaur wrote:
[quote]
If you don't think zerg has any good units I won't be able to convince you otherwise so I don't even bother.
Btw terran has no good units and protoss has no good units. Yeah sure : I guess : Marines are bad, Reaper are bad Medivac are bad Tank are bad (just 13 range, and 70 dmg) Wm are bad Liberators are bad Raven are bad And adept bad, Immortals bad, Phoenix bad, chargelots bad, archons bad, Hight templar bad, Disruptor bad, DT bad, WP bad, Carrier bad. Why don't you switch to zerg, we'll see if you will become the first sc2 player of the world as Zerg so easy and so strong ? ah you're right all t and p units are ridicolously strong while z units are all garbage and need to be buffed. my bad how couldn't I see it.. thanks for reminding me why I want to get out of those balance discussions No, you're missing the point zerg need strong units to deal with the strong units of the other race. It's not a big deal for you that terran has acess to a 13 range unit with just a factory ? Zerg must tech hive in order to get vipers and get a tank counter, but you can't make vikings or HT to counter vipers ? You want that zerg have to wait broodlords tech to have something able to counter tanks ? I can't decide whether this is excellent trolling, or pointless whine. Every unit in the zerg tech tree is used by pros, and zerg isn't underperforming (zerg might even be OP as a whole with the many buffs they recieved with 3.8). Not a single zerg unit is bad at the moment. He has a valid point, while your doesn't. He wasn't even talking about the fact whether Z units are each good or bad. He's talking about why it requires Z to tech to T3 just to counter Terran's T2 unit, which makes 0 sense to me either. Terrans have the best of everything already - most flexibility, safest protection against all-ins, most cost efficient units, and now you're whining because he's bringing up a legit point about how Z needs superior tech unit + investment to beat a T lower tech unit? No because that's how the game works. Tech prevents how early and how massable an unit is. Exactly, and that's why viper should prevent Terran massing tanks. Tanks crush all the ground units, and need some counter. What terrans are doing right now is like if zergs had ultras with 8 armor back, and would have claimed ghost should be nerfed. On December 05 2016 17:39 JackONeill wrote:
Zerg got insane buffs going their way for this patch. Crying about it, when by every metric you can find zerg is doing extremely well with 3.8, is at an unreachable level of bias.
Where zerg are doing fine ? IEM Season XI - Gyeonggi qualifier : Maru-Rogue 2-0 TY-Hyun 2-0 Alive-curious 2-0 Jjackji-Scarlett 2-0 TOP-Snute 2-1 SGL Cup 6 : herO-Dark 2-1 You have an unreachable level of bias, and you don't provide any facts or real arguments, but just be agressive towards zerg players, and call who don't agree with you "troll" Yeah because stating "you don't provide arguments" and "you're biased" are such incredibly strong... arguments. Are you mentionning the online qualifier where (according to liquipedia) 6 zergs passed, for 3 terrans and 3 protosses, when 15 terrans entered the qualifier, 12 protosses and 12 zergs? Yeah seems to me zerg is doing very poorly indeed. And I also can handpick BO3 results to match my "extremely unbiased opinon" (byul 2-0 bunny and major, soo 2-0 billowy)... if i was so unbiased i didn't take into account that byul is much better than bunny and major, and that soo is much better than billowy ; just like Maru, TY and Alive are arguably some of the best terran players at the moment, and that korean victories against foreigners aren't that big of a surprise. Okay enough with the irony. To be fair i didn't watch the qualifiers, but i'm gonna go full psychic and suppose that the TvZ wins were relying much on mech play, and that therefore vipers weren't used much. Feel free to correct me though, as i said i'm hypothesizing. So when zerg's anti mech play recieved nothing but buffs (except for BL range maybe) with 3.8, the patch that was supposed to make mech viable, i'm really waiting for some pro TvZ games where the terran player wins with a non-cheesy mech style. And if there's none to be found, maybe, just maybe that the very dominant zerg caster against mech being discussed to get nerfed is based on something. And by the way, no one said that vipers weren't needed for zerg. They're a legitimate counter to tank and turret lines, and as I stated many times before, i feel that blinding cloud is a very legit ability. My beef is with the abduct. He is just being disingenuous. No Terran player qualified using mech in TvZ. They all played basicaly the same style used pre-3.8 - Bio/mines/tank/libs. Viper's blinding cloud is not even used vs Bio, therefore a nerf in blinding cloud is definitely ok. In fact, the only pro player I've seen using mech in tournaments was Gumiho. Look how far he went in those tournaments.
To be fair it is unlikely that anyone would alter their play style drastically right after the patch in an important qualifying tournament unless the patch was clearly broken.
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People need to understand that viper is a big bandaid for problems that zerg had since WoL, and if it's not this strong zerg would be basicaly useless.
Nerfing abduct would make it impossible to attack into siege lines and protoss armies with disruptors.
Nerfing blinding cloud would make it impossible to defend a mech push, specialy early when there's only 2 or 3 vipers, and impossible to counter lurkers.
Nerfing the PB would bring zerg back to previous SC2 versions, where it's impossible to beat a late game air army.
It's literaly what broodlord was in WoL, not a choice, but a MUST HAVE unit.
SH could be removed, it will always be a problematic unit, either too strong or too weak, there's no "ok" point. Would be cool if they repurposed it, making it an anti air unit, much like a ground carrier, but that would take ages for blizzard to balance too.
Hydra range, at least for the air attack, is a must have now that carriers are back in the game.
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On December 06 2016 04:53 xTJx wrote:
People need to understand that viper is a big bandaid for problems that zerg had since WoL, and if it's not this strong zerg would be basicaly useless.
Nerfing abduct would make it impossible to attack into siege lines and protoss armies with disruptors.
Nerfing blinding cloud would make it impossible to defend a mech push, specialy early when there's only 2 or 3 vipers, and impossible to counter lurkers.
Nerfing the PB would bring zerg back to previous SC2 versions, where it's impossible to beat a late game air army.
It's literaly what broodlord was in WoL, not a choice, but a MUST HAVE unit.
SH could be removed, it will always be a problematic unit, either too strong or too weak, there's no "ok" point. Would be cool if they repurposed it, making it an anti air unit, much like a ground carrier, but that would take ages for blizzard to balance too.
Hydra range, at least for the air attack, is a must have now that carriers are back in the game.
I agree, Swarm Host should just be removed, it's so horribly designed that it will never be in a good state of balance, it will always be imba strong or weak, it also massively overlaps with the Viper which is an obvious anti mech/area denial unit.
But yes, everything else is so spot on, Zerg would be so pathetically weak without the Viper. Tank lines and Protoss deathballs would just be unstoppable. Especially with buffed Colossus.
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On December 06 2016 03:36 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2016 02:13 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 05 2016 17:39 JackONeill wrote:On December 05 2016 07:26 parkufarku wrote:On December 05 2016 06:33 JackONeill wrote:On December 05 2016 05:20 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 05 2016 05:06 Charoisaur wrote:On December 05 2016 04:52 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 04 2016 03:40 Charoisaur wrote:On December 03 2016 22:46 PharaphobiaSC wrote:
[quote]
Can you name me two good units? We are getting rekt by anything in lategame... If you don't think zerg has any good units I won't be able to convince you otherwise so I don't even bother. Btw terran has no good units and protoss has no good units. Yeah sure : I guess : Marines are bad, Reaper are bad Medivac are bad Tank are bad (just 13 range, and 70 dmg) Wm are bad Liberators are bad Raven are bad And adept bad, Immortals bad, Phoenix bad, chargelots bad, archons bad, Hight templar bad, Disruptor bad, DT bad, WP bad, Carrier bad. Why don't you switch to zerg, we'll see if you will become the first sc2 player of the world as Zerg so easy and so strong ? ah you're right all t and p units are ridicolously strong while z units are all garbage and need to be buffed. my bad how couldn't I see it.. thanks for reminding me why I want to get out of those balance discussions No, you're missing the point zerg need strong units to deal with the strong units of the other race. It's not a big deal for you that terran has acess to a 13 range unit with just a factory ? Zerg must tech hive in order to get vipers and get a tank counter, but you can't make vikings or HT to counter vipers ? You want that zerg have to wait broodlords tech to have something able to counter tanks ? I can't decide whether this is excellent trolling, or pointless whine. Every unit in the zerg tech tree is used by pros, and zerg isn't underperforming (zerg might even be OP as a whole with the many buffs they recieved with 3.8). Not a single zerg unit is bad at the moment. He has a valid point, while your doesn't. He wasn't even talking about the fact whether Z units are each good or bad. He's talking about why it requires Z to tech to T3 just to counter Terran's T2 unit, which makes 0 sense to me either. Terrans have the best of everything already - most flexibility, safest protection against all-ins, most cost efficient units, and now you're whining because he's bringing up a legit point about how Z needs superior tech unit + investment to beat a T lower tech unit? No because that's how the game works. Tech prevents how early and how massable an unit is. Exactly, and that's why viper should prevent Terran massing tanks. Tanks crush all the ground units, and need some counter. What terrans are doing right now is like if zergs had ultras with 8 armor back, and would have claimed ghost should be nerfed. On December 05 2016 17:39 JackONeill wrote:
Zerg got insane buffs going their way for this patch. Crying about it, when by every metric you can find zerg is doing extremely well with 3.8, is at an unreachable level of bias.
Where zerg are doing fine ? IEM Season XI - Gyeonggi qualifier : Maru-Rogue 2-0 TY-Hyun 2-0 Alive-curious 2-0 Jjackji-Scarlett 2-0 TOP-Snute 2-1 SGL Cup 6 : herO-Dark 2-1 You have an unreachable level of bias, and you don't provide any facts or real arguments, but just be agressive towards zerg players, and call who don't agree with you "troll" Yeah because stating "you don't provide arguments" and "you're biased" are such incredibly strong... arguments. Are you mentionning the online qualifier where (according to liquipedia) 6 zergs passed, for 3 terrans and 3 protosses, when 15 terrans entered the qualifier, 12 protosses and 12 zergs? Yeah seems to me zerg is doing very poorly indeed. And I also can handpick BO3 results to match my "extremely unbiased opinon" (byul 2-0 bunny and major, soo 2-0 billowy)... if i was so unbiased i didn't take into account that byul is much better than bunny and major, and that soo is much better than billowy ; just like Maru, TY and Alive are arguably some of the best terran players at the moment, and that korean victories against foreigners aren't that big of a surprise. Okay enough with the irony. To be fair i didn't watch the qualifiers, but i'm gonna go full psychic and suppose that the TvZ wins were relying much on mech play, and that therefore vipers weren't used much. Feel free to correct me though, as i said i'm hypothesizing. So when zerg's anti mech play recieved nothing but buffs (except for BL range maybe) with 3.8, the patch that was supposed to make mech viable, i'm really waiting for some pro TvZ games where the terran player wins with a non-cheesy mech style. And if there's none to be found, maybe, just maybe that the very dominant zerg caster against mech being discussed to get nerfed is based on something. And by the way, no one said that vipers weren't needed for zerg. They're a legitimate counter to tank and turret lines, and as I stated many times before, i feel that blinding cloud is a very legit ability. My beef is with the abduct.
It's like it pleases me to play full lings, and so i say terran is broken cause hellbat hard counter my full lings style...
You're like :
I should do whatever i do, no adapt at all to the other, make mech units i like, and i should win, else zerg is so broken...
Just makes vikings, and you will hard counter vipers...
But no, you don't learn how to play, better whine and say : "Zerg so broken winning everything".
When a terran win : "it's normal he is better than the other", when Z win : "look how zerg is soo strong, their race should be nerfed".
I'm not like you :
I don't say TY, Alive and Maru don't deserve to win, but " Look ! they play the same race than you, and manage to beat far better zerg that you ever met on ladder."
There is no such thing of pro level games where Zerg crush Terran easily like you try to say, you even admit you don't watch pro level games :
your "Zerg so OP, nerf viper" are just from your personal game, and it's just a learn to play issue as you're not a top GM.
The thing you prefer whine to get the unit nerfed before even starting to learn how to counter them, and you're not even trying to learn how better player deal with them.
Do play zerg yourself, you will realize Viper isn't the unit that crush everything on the game like you're saying, but actually you'r not building them very often as it's really expensive, and fragile.
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On December 06 2016 05:23 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2016 03:36 JackONeill wrote:On December 06 2016 02:13 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 05 2016 17:39 JackONeill wrote:On December 05 2016 07:26 parkufarku wrote:On December 05 2016 06:33 JackONeill wrote:On December 05 2016 05:20 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 05 2016 05:06 Charoisaur wrote:On December 05 2016 04:52 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 04 2016 03:40 Charoisaur wrote:
[quote]
If you don't think zerg has any good units I won't be able to convince you otherwise so I don't even bother.
Btw terran has no good units and protoss has no good units. Yeah sure : I guess : Marines are bad, Reaper are bad Medivac are bad Tank are bad (just 13 range, and 70 dmg) Wm are bad Liberators are bad Raven are bad And adept bad, Immortals bad, Phoenix bad, chargelots bad, archons bad, Hight templar bad, Disruptor bad, DT bad, WP bad, Carrier bad. Why don't you switch to zerg, we'll see if you will become the first sc2 player of the world as Zerg so easy and so strong ? ah you're right all t and p units are ridicolously strong while z units are all garbage and need to be buffed. my bad how couldn't I see it.. thanks for reminding me why I want to get out of those balance discussions No, you're missing the point zerg need strong units to deal with the strong units of the other race. It's not a big deal for you that terran has acess to a 13 range unit with just a factory ? Zerg must tech hive in order to get vipers and get a tank counter, but you can't make vikings or HT to counter vipers ? You want that zerg have to wait broodlords tech to have something able to counter tanks ? I can't decide whether this is excellent trolling, or pointless whine. Every unit in the zerg tech tree is used by pros, and zerg isn't underperforming (zerg might even be OP as a whole with the many buffs they recieved with 3.8). Not a single zerg unit is bad at the moment. He has a valid point, while your doesn't. He wasn't even talking about the fact whether Z units are each good or bad. He's talking about why it requires Z to tech to T3 just to counter Terran's T2 unit, which makes 0 sense to me either. Terrans have the best of everything already - most flexibility, safest protection against all-ins, most cost efficient units, and now you're whining because he's bringing up a legit point about how Z needs superior tech unit + investment to beat a T lower tech unit? No because that's how the game works. Tech prevents how early and how massable an unit is. Exactly, and that's why viper should prevent Terran massing tanks. Tanks crush all the ground units, and need some counter. What terrans are doing right now is like if zergs had ultras with 8 armor back, and would have claimed ghost should be nerfed. On December 05 2016 17:39 JackONeill wrote:
Zerg got insane buffs going their way for this patch. Crying about it, when by every metric you can find zerg is doing extremely well with 3.8, is at an unreachable level of bias.
Where zerg are doing fine ? IEM Season XI - Gyeonggi qualifier : Maru-Rogue 2-0 TY-Hyun 2-0 Alive-curious 2-0 Jjackji-Scarlett 2-0 TOP-Snute 2-1 SGL Cup 6 : herO-Dark 2-1 You have an unreachable level of bias, and you don't provide any facts or real arguments, but just be agressive towards zerg players, and call who don't agree with you "troll" Yeah because stating "you don't provide arguments" and "you're biased" are such incredibly strong... arguments. Are you mentionning the online qualifier where (according to liquipedia) 6 zergs passed, for 3 terrans and 3 protosses, when 15 terrans entered the qualifier, 12 protosses and 12 zergs? Yeah seems to me zerg is doing very poorly indeed. And I also can handpick BO3 results to match my "extremely unbiased opinon" (byul 2-0 bunny and major, soo 2-0 billowy)... if i was so unbiased i didn't take into account that byul is much better than bunny and major, and that soo is much better than billowy ; just like Maru, TY and Alive are arguably some of the best terran players at the moment, and that korean victories against foreigners aren't that big of a surprise. Okay enough with the irony. To be fair i didn't watch the qualifiers, but i'm gonna go full psychic and suppose that the TvZ wins were relying much on mech play, and that therefore vipers weren't used much. Feel free to correct me though, as i said i'm hypothesizing. So when zerg's anti mech play recieved nothing but buffs (except for BL range maybe) with 3.8, the patch that was supposed to make mech viable, i'm really waiting for some pro TvZ games where the terran player wins with a non-cheesy mech style. And if there's none to be found, maybe, just maybe that the very dominant zerg caster against mech being discussed to get nerfed is based on something. And by the way, no one said that vipers weren't needed for zerg. They're a legitimate counter to tank and turret lines, and as I stated many times before, i feel that blinding cloud is a very legit ability. My beef is with the abduct. It's like it pleases me to play full lings, and so i say terran is broken cause hellbat hard counter my full lings style... You're like : I should do whatever i do, no adapt at all to the other, make mech units i like, and i should win, else zerg is so broken... Just makes vikings, and you will hard counter vipers... But no, you don't learn how to play, better whine and say : "Zerg so broken winning everything". When a terran win : "it's normal he is better than the other", when Z win : "look how zerg is soo strong, their race should be nerfed". I'm not like you : I don't say TY, Alive and Maru don't deserve to win, but " Look ! they play the same race than you, and manage to beat far better zerg that you ever met on ladder." There is no such thing of pro level games where Zerg crush Terran easily like you try to say, you even admit you don't watch pro level games : your "Zerg so OP, nerf viper" are just from your personal game, and it's just a learn to play issue as you're not a top GM. The thing you prefer whine to get the unit nerfed before even starting to learn how to counter them, and you're not even trying to learn how better player deal with them. Do play zerg yourself, you will realize Viper isn't the unit that crush everything on the game like you're saying, but actually you'r not building them very often as it's really expensive, and fragile.
"Just makes vikings, and you will hard counter vipers... " has to be the most hilarious thing i've read on a TL forum since "the pylon overcharge is a skill based mechanism" from few months ago. If you're oblivious enough to think people playing mech aren't building vikings by default, then you don't know anything about what you're talking about.
And no one but you is whining here buddy. By the way that's a pretty impressive shed of tears :
On December 06 2016 05:23 Tyrhanius wrote:When a terran win : "it's normal he is better than the other", when Z win : "look how zerg is soo strong, their race should be nerfed".
So instead of basking in victimization concerning the soon to come nerf of your race, try to consolate yourself by seeing that the general opinion (shared by blizzard apparently) is that the viper is too strong against mech in combinaison with the other buffs zerg recieved.
Oh and by the way, i'm not basing this on personal experience. I'm basing this mainly on snute's stream, when playing against a meching terran he stated something like "with vipers/hydra/SH, mech basically can't ever move out or cross the map, while getting chipped away by SHs and viper abducts".
And as i'm writing this i just saw, get ready to cry some more because they're apparently considering reverting the hydra nerf (so hopefully we'll see some protoss players on the ladder).
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On December 06 2016 05:46 JackONeill wrote:
And as i'm writing this i just saw, get ready to cry some more because they're apparently considering reverting the hydra nerf (so hopefully we'll see some protoss players on the ladder).
And it's what must be done, not "nerf viper non sense".
I've always said, i have no idea how protoss would have dealt with 7 range hydra viper while the MU was already around 50% before patch, as they have received no buff.
ZvP was maybe the best MU of LOTV, and i don't want DK to kill the MU like he does with ZvT of HOTS.
For ZvT, just want the LBM vs MMMM back on LOTV, and not the boring "mass tank/PF/tourett/mass raven" of HOTS.
No idea how to make playing vs mech fun, but it's certainly not this way, and nerfing viper won't make TvZ more fun, but more OP, while still super boring.
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On December 06 2016 06:26 Tyrhanius wrote:
For ZvT, just want the LBM vs MMMM back on LOTV, and not the boring "mass tank/PF/tourett/mass raven" of HOTS.
Nerf the raven and you will realize the rest is nowhere near as strong as you think it is.
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On December 06 2016 07:10 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2016 06:26 Tyrhanius wrote:
For ZvT, just want the LBM vs MMMM back on LOTV, and not the boring "mass tank/PF/tourett/mass raven" of HOTS.
Nerf the raven and you will realize the rest is nowhere near as strong as you think it is.
exactly. I don't understand why people who don't want mech to be viable always refer to the mass raven styles at the end of HotS. this is not what mech players want. nerf the raven, make ground mech stronger and you'll see mech won't be nowhere as boring.
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On December 06 2016 07:10 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2016 06:26 Tyrhanius wrote:
For ZvT, just want the LBM vs MMMM back on LOTV, and not the boring "mass tank/PF/tourett/mass raven" of HOTS.
Nerf the raven and you will realize the rest is nowhere near as strong as you think it is.
Tanks does 70 dmg vs armored ! it was only 50 on HOTS !
It's now the unit that have the biggest range of the game !
They got liberator now, they have now cyclon that has 45 dps vs armored !
+ the raven, how can you tell it won't be stronger than mech of HOTS...
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On December 06 2016 07:17 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2016 07:10 Lexender wrote:On December 06 2016 06:26 Tyrhanius wrote:
For ZvT, just want the LBM vs MMMM back on LOTV, and not the boring "mass tank/PF/tourett/mass raven" of HOTS.
Nerf the raven and you will realize the rest is nowhere near as strong as you think it is. exactly. I don't understand why people who don't want mech to be viable always refer to the mass raven styles at the end of HotS. this is not what mech players want. nerf the raven, make ground mech stronger and you'll see mech won't be nowhere as boring.
This is textbook straw man fallacy. They claim mech is "mass tank/PF/turrets/mass raven", while many have made clear that this is not the type of mech people want being viable. Then they claim "mech is boring", based on their own definition of mech, and then comes the obvious following of "therefore mech must not be made viable".
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On December 06 2016 07:30 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2016 07:10 Lexender wrote:On December 06 2016 06:26 Tyrhanius wrote:
For ZvT, just want the LBM vs MMMM back on LOTV, and not the boring "mass tank/PF/tourett/mass raven" of HOTS.
Nerf the raven and you will realize the rest is nowhere near as strong as you think it is. Tanks does 70 dmg vs armored ! it was only 50 on HOTS ! It's now the unit that have the biggest range of the game ! They got liberator now, they have now cyclon that has 45 dps vs armored ! + the raven, how can you tell it won't be stronger than mech of HOTS...
Because theres many things that have change also.
I think they should simply try it, make the next change be removing all the spells from the raven and nothing else, and you will see mech will have 0% chance of being turtle without dying in the first 15-20 minutes no matter how hard you try, because altough tanks are strong (of course they are thats the whole point of this patch) without an infinite resources unit aka the raven, your army grows weaker every second compared to the enemy.
Also the cyclone is garbagge right now past the early game, try it and see for yourself.
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On December 06 2016 07:37 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2016 07:17 Charoisaur wrote:On December 06 2016 07:10 Lexender wrote:On December 06 2016 06:26 Tyrhanius wrote:
For ZvT, just want the LBM vs MMMM back on LOTV, and not the boring "mass tank/PF/tourett/mass raven" of HOTS.
Nerf the raven and you will realize the rest is nowhere near as strong as you think it is. exactly. I don't understand why people who don't want mech to be viable always refer to the mass raven styles at the end of HotS. this is not what mech players want. nerf the raven, make ground mech stronger and you'll see mech won't be nowhere as boring. This is textbook straw man fallacy. They claim mech is "mass tank/PF/turrets/mass raven", while many have made clear that this is not the type of mech people want being viable. Then they claim "mech is boring", based on their own definition of mech, and then comes the obvious following of "therefore mech must not be made viable".
I know people want tank mech to be viable with strong harass potential, my ideal mech is tank lines with banshees flying around and Viking/Hellion hit squads, making for a very apm heavy and high skill cap style of play for Terrans to delve into.
But the balance and design team has screwed up too many things for good mech like that to ever exist, and it's many reasons..
1) strength of massing high damage energy based casters and mass aerial armies in general for all races make ground based mech inferior to utilize.
2) new economy forcing tank based mech to stretch itself too thin, as rapidly depleting bases require further and harder to defend territories to be held
3) No rapid response unit, tank based mech was good in BW because Vultures were such versatile and fast units, they could raid enemy expansions, set up mine fields to buy time for the tank lines to re position themselves, and even to buy time as half way decent front line fighters if well micro managed, the Hellion/Banshee/Cyclone all fail spectacularly where the Vulture succeeded.
4) Numerous hard counters, some of which has been lessened by the improved tank damage but some units like Archons, Immortals, and sky Protoss in general are all by their very nature powerful vs mech comps
5) Swarm Hosts and Vipers seem to exist for no other purpose then to counter mech, the Swarm Host is pretty useless unless fighting mech and Abduct/Blinding cloud is useless vs small mobile units (everything not mech) and imbalanced vs. things that don't move fast (everything that is mech)
These are the reasons that trying to make straight factory viable as a play style is a long lost cause, at least with David Kim at the helm of this operation. Yes Terran deserves factory viable mech but the game doesn't need to further suffer from cancer styles like mass Raven/PF/Tank just so Terran can have more diversity. I'm just praying to the Gods that at least bio mech be viable, the golden age of ZvT was Tank based MMM vs. Ling/Bling/Muta
I quit this game after 8.5K ladder games and 150 dollars because plain and simple this design team is bad and quite clearly doesn't play/watch/have any vision for this game other then watching it cough and gasp for breath until nobody outside of an extremely small niche cares at all. Once you quit the game and look from the outside at how poorly SC2 is being managed it just makes you cringe and step even more away from it. I'm no BW super fan or anything, but it's just kind of pathetic that a game that old can be so well designed and remain so popular compared to it's comparitively speaking brand new incarnation, David Kim should just be ashamed at this point, he's utterly clueless.
edited for grammar
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On December 05 2016 18:00 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2016 08:33 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On December 03 2016 07:20 avilo wrote:On December 03 2016 06:35 Liquid`Snute wrote:
Can't colossus start with 7 range instead of 6? What about trimming off 15-20% of thermal lance time?
Modifying damage to 12+4 light is so extreme, what about +2 vs light damage and take it from there?
I would also bring Interceptor cost up to 10 (at least). It trades too well at max and killing interceptors isn't even an option now. Only to win by the no-interceptors-left-push-forward condition. Carrier should spawn with 8 interceptors too because they are too weak initially. You already spent a century building the thing so it should spawn with 8. Gravaton catapult upgrade should be removed and launch fire rate should be put somewhere betwen before and after upgrades. For defensive purposes, carriers should be able to build interceptors faster, especially if you reduce the launch fire rate I think this would help battles become more fair. Carrier strength is too binary.
About Viper. It HAS TO stay strong for Zerg to be able to defeat mech especially on medium size maps such as overgrowth.
Tweaking values won't change the fact that zerg is doing one of these:
- Attacking head on with a big sky zerg/viper/transfuse based army, bursting out all spells
- Taking small hit and run trades using viper spells and Consume continously (combos well with swarm host)
Simply nerfing the viper abilities won't solve the identity crisis of the viper. The unit by design is created to be in one of those modes and consume ENCOURAGES hit and run/over time play. If you remove that, you force straight up fights and thus possibly stale board state up until the point of combat. What do they want? A mobile hit and run ninja unit, or a big support caster for grand broodlord/corruptor/infestor viper? Because right now there is no doubt that Mass Raven destroys sky-zerg and that Mass Viper/Hydra/Swarmhost kill-them-before-they-get-there taking free trades is better. I do think Terran lategame is stronger than Zerg but it's impossible for them to reach that stage. So one should work on fixing both. Viper has been OP for years now. If anything parasitic bomb made it god tier and should never have been added because it makes vikings useless as a counter. Honestly both vipers and ravens needed to have their supply increased to around 4 years ago. These units are too cost efficient and the issue is when you get 10+ of either of them they take over the entire game. Making them cost more supply means you'd be able to get less of them in a maxed out army. TBH let's just all be real here - they are scapegoating random units now because they don't want to admit they made a massive mistake with the hydra, swarmhost, and infestor buffs. These units are at absurd levels of imbalance right now. Rather than make more problems by buffing collosus and nerfing vipers, they should revert all of the ridiculous Zerg changes they made and just admit they were wrong and made a mistake. Too bad we know that won't happen. land your afflicted vikings, move the rest of them away. or do the fake landing nathanias does. or split because you have 10 fingers and I assume you play with a mouse. I thought they already patched out the Viking fake landing interaction with Parasitic Bomb after the last patch
thankfully he has 2 more options then.
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I don't know if PB is too good, but its funny that people complain about it.
Terrans should already be used to spreading the marines, so why whine about PB?
Or is it because mech terrans refuse to learn to spread units, and they want their all encompassing; counter all your shit; camp for hours; god composition to be even easier?
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Everyone is whining about carriers and protoss and how they too powerful and yada yada yada. Terran players, have you ever considered using yamato cannons to focus carriers while using widow mines to kill all the interceptors and turn said carriers into big hot air balloons. Zerg players, have you ever considered hitting a timing attack with lurker hydra before the protoss maxes out on skytoss (which takes a while and leaves the protoss with next to no units because said protoss has to focus on macro, getting bases and improving income for the expensive air units). Because if you are letting protoss do whatever they want for the whole game and then at 15 minutes amoving into a skytoss army expecting to win then the problem isn't the protoss player, the balance team, the matchmaker, it is your problem. You whine that you see a lot of skytoss in PvZ, it's not our fault if you got lurkers that shred our gateway units meat shield and leave the colossi and disruptors unguarded, easily in the reach of your units. if the ground is occupied by stuff that is too strong then one switches to air, it's not starcraft, it's logic.
There is also complaining about pylon overcharge; it is our only way to deflect early lings, marines etc. If you are amoving into overcharged pylons it's your problem, not ours. Terran players, if you wanto to break through a pylon barrier have you ever tried making oh I don't know... A SIEGE TANK?
Zerg players have you ever tried going around the pylons by using drop overlords? There are many paths into a toss base, not just the on protected by these overpowered pylon beasts which apparently disrupt your existence on this planet
Protoss had to adapt to adept and warp prism nerf, to gateway nerfs, colossus nerf, force field nerf in ZvP. So, it's about time you also got your crap together and started adapting to this new balance
With that said. I'm out
P.s. to those who say i am biased: i am plat 1 toss, gold 1 zerg and terran, I play all 3 races and enjoy my time in the lower leagues, if I can do it, you can do it
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On December 06 2016 07:37 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2016 07:17 Charoisaur wrote:On December 06 2016 07:10 Lexender wrote:On December 06 2016 06:26 Tyrhanius wrote:
For ZvT, just want the LBM vs MMMM back on LOTV, and not the boring "mass tank/PF/tourett/mass raven" of HOTS.
Nerf the raven and you will realize the rest is nowhere near as strong as you think it is. exactly. I don't understand why people who don't want mech to be viable always refer to the mass raven styles at the end of HotS. this is not what mech players want. nerf the raven, make ground mech stronger and you'll see mech won't be nowhere as boring. This is textbook straw man fallacy. They claim mech is "mass tank/PF/turrets/mass raven", while many have made clear that this is not the type of mech people want being viable. Then they claim "mech is boring", based on their own definition of mech, and then comes the obvious following of "therefore mech must not be made viable".
If mechers don't want a boring style, why do they suggest solutions that always lead to turtle?
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On December 12 2016 07:43 icesergio wrote:
Everyone is whining about carriers and protoss and how they too powerful and yada yada yada. Terran players, have you ever considered using yamato cannons to focus carriers while using widow mines to kill all the interceptors and turn said carriers into big hot air balloons. Zerg players, have you ever considered hitting a timing attack with lurker hydra before the protoss maxes out on skytoss (which takes a while and leaves the protoss with next to no units because said protoss has to focus on macro, getting bases and improving income for the expensive air units). Because if you are letting protoss do whatever they want for the whole game and then at 15 minutes amoving into a skytoss army expecting to win then the problem isn't the protoss player, the balance team, the matchmaker, it is your problem. You whine that you see a lot of skytoss in PvZ, it's not our fault if you got lurkers that shred our gateway units meat shield and leave the colossi and disruptors unguarded, easily in the reach of your units. if the ground is occupied by stuff that is too strong then one switches to air, it's not starcraft, it's logic.
There is also complaining about pylon overcharge; it is our only way to deflect early lings, marines etc. If you are amoving into overcharged pylons it's your problem, not ours. Terran players, if you wanto to break through a pylon barrier have you ever tried making oh I don't know... A SIEGE TANK?
Zerg players have you ever tried going around the pylons by using drop overlords? There are many paths into a toss base, not just the on protected by these overpowered pylon beasts which apparently disrupt your existence on this planet
Protoss had to adapt to adept and warp prism nerf, to gateway nerfs, colossus nerf, force field nerf in ZvP. So, it's about time you also got your crap together and started adapting to this new balance
With that said. I'm out
P.s. to those who say i am biased: i am plat 1 toss, gold 1 zerg and terran, I play all 3 races and enjoy my time in the lower leagues, if I can do it, you can do it
Yet another canditate for coaching korean progamers. SoO and Golden were having trouble facing carriers a few days ago on stream, send them a message and they'll give you all their money for your tips.
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@xtJx
I love your sarcasm and saltiness, had you actually read my post you would have known that I am referring to the LOWER levels of play. The game should be fun and playable for everyone because at the end of the day, the $ comes from casual players buying the game. I'll repeat again, if you stall the carriers and wear the interceptors out and then engage right away you'll discover that the carriers just cannot attack because of the lack of interceptors. Widow mines work wonders at getting rid of interceptors, nerual parasite on void rays destroys carriers because carriers are armored and void rays shred armrored units. Again, these are the methods I use (and the ways I have lost to other players) at the lower levels of play. So take what you will
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EPT![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CM809rKWoAAiV0C.jpg)
