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On December 03 2016 04:22 The_Red_Viper wrote:Colossus buff, that's exactly what people want because the unit is so fun to use and play against! And people really argue that blizzard actually wants to make the best game possible  I already said it in the other thread talking about viper abduct but hey this is a good place as well: Spells in sc2 are always on the edge of being too strong because you can easily spam it. Having 5+ spellcasters and getting all the spells casted in 1 second is no problem. That's the issue, not individual spells being strong. Always the same in this game, a certain strategy revolving casters is perceived as too strong and then the spell gets nerfed so it only is useful when you actually have a large amount of casters. That's not interesting and it's certainly not fun to play. The easiest method to change that would be to remove smartcasting, if there are other options i am ok with that too but people have to realise that spamming spells is the issue, no? (in the case of the viper it's obviously also the fact that it's a flying spellcaster which makes it even easier to use)
Or just a cooldown on when you cast the same (or all, whatever) spell again. I know this only really helps when there are one or few casters, but regardless, I think cooldowns in general can have a place in fixing all that is wrong with SC2.
Not related, but I wish supply costs were not so inflated in SC2. I wish SC2 had the large armies that are prevalent in star1. I know it would result in many other issues, but I'd like to see the supply cap raised to 250 or something. Of course, SC2 still lags on semi-modern computers, so I guess they can't do that =\
broken since 2010
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On December 03 2016 03:45 redloser wrote:
Uhm, why not remove the Hydra buff rather than buffing Colossi? For the Viper change, nerfing the duration of BC might be okay since it is mostly used in ZvMech unlike in HotS, but reducing the Abduct range is a no-no; otherwise you can't really fight against the skytoss without it.
Because buffing is fun!
On December 03 2016 03:53 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
i've said this before.. i'll say it again.
how does the tongue of a flying unit pull a Sieged Tank out of the ground while the flying Viper remains motionless and in the exact same position?
shouldn't this "abduct"/tongue-pull not be possible at all OR at least force the Viper itself to move towards the Sieged Tank at least a little bit?
I say either a Sieged Tank can't be abducted at all.. .or the Viper is pulled forward as it pulls the Sieged Tank out of the ground and towards it... Both the Viper and Sieged Tank should come together and both objects should move.
nerf the Viper in this way... make it move towards the victim of its abduct/tongue-pull OR maybe lower the range of the tongue pull OR eliminate the abduct ability from working on Tanks seiged into the ground.
I agree, it looks awful. It goes way over the (well mine at least) suspension of disbelief.
I think they should try swapping abilities between Infestor and Viper, abduct for Neural parasite for example. Have an animation for the Infestor clinging to the ground when pulling, burrowed is fine as is obviously. This will make it look a lot better but more importantly, abducting will be more difficult to.. pull of :p
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On December 03 2016 04:32 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2016 03:45 redloser wrote:
Uhm, why not remove the Hydra buff rather than buffing Colossi? For the Viper change, nerfing the duration of BC might be okay since it is mostly used in ZvMech unlike in HotS, but reducing the Abduct range is a no-no; otherwise you can't really fight against the skytoss without it. Because buffing is fun!
Alright let's let reapers throw actual widow mines!
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"remove consume", "nerf vipers and hydras same time", and shit like this...The amount of "remove Zerg from the game" ballshit on this forum makes me sick. Seriously people, it's not a game ment only for Terrans and Protosses.
As I'm ok with colossus buff, i would recommend to be careful with Viper nerfs. Nerfing blinding cloud duration time means that after casting them, Zerg's damage dealing army won't have time to take positions to deal that damage. Nerfing abduct range would mean that Vipers would be sniped/feedbacked before they even get in range to do something and this unit is veryfragile and not cheap.
Retard ideas like "removing consume"...It's below of myself to comment this but i will do that-vipers come into play so late in the game that waiting for energy grow to cast sth would make this unit useless. Must i remind u that most of casters of other races vome into play on tier2 basically?
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I'm not too sure about these changes, but sure let's test things. I just don't want to see too much Colossus and mech play.
Nerf the viper all you want, I don't like the unit at all! Still, reducing the abduct range would be bad because it would affect fighting vs air armies too. So it would be much better to nerf blinding cloud instead in my opinion.
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This is how best games are made! Keep it up David Kim!
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On December 03 2016 04:34 ArtyK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2016 04:32 Penev wrote:On December 03 2016 03:45 redloser wrote:
Uhm, why not remove the Hydra buff rather than buffing Colossi? For the Viper change, nerfing the duration of BC might be okay since it is mostly used in ZvMech unlike in HotS, but reducing the Abduct range is a no-no; otherwise you can't really fight against the skytoss without it. Because buffing is fun! Alright let's let reapers throw actual widow mines!
Nukes
I propose nukes
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Why no mention of Swarm Hosts?
It does not matter that Vipers hard counter all mech units in the late game.
Swarm Hosts makes sure the mech player never reaches the late game, and even if he does it will be in a really bad position.
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On December 03 2016 04:38 hiroshOne wrote:
"remove consume", "nerf vipers and hydras same time", and shit like this...The amount of "remove Zerg from the game" ballshit on this forum makes me sick. Seriously people, it's not a game ment only for Terrans and Protosses.
As I'm ok with colossus buff, i would recommend to be careful with Viper nerfs. Nerfing blinding cloud duration time means that after casting them, Zerg's damage dealing army won't have time to take positions to deal that damage. Nerfing abduct range would mean that Vipers would be sniped/feedbacked before they even get in range to do something and this unit is veryfragile and not cheap.
Retard ideas like "removing consume"...It's below of myself to comment this but i will do that-vipers come into play so late in the game that waiting for energy grow to cast sth would make this unit useless. Must i remind u that most of casters of other races vome into play on tier2 basically?
Yeah because you generally need vipers midgame against most compositions...not.
Consume allows viper to abuse strong abilities over and over at the cost of energy while your opponents slowly bleeds out his entire army...
By proposing to remove consume and giving vipers a default 75 energy, i stay away from nerfing the abilities you cherish so much. AND you can cast abduct as soon as they get out, isn't that neat?
Considering the current state of ZvX, the nerfs we're discussing here won't remove zerg from the game, believe me...
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On December 03 2016 04:38 hiroshOne wrote:
"remove consume", "nerf vipers and hydras same time", and shit like this...The amount of "remove Zerg from the game" ballshit on this forum makes me sick. Seriously people, it's not a game ment only for Terrans and Protosses.
if nerfing Vipers or swapping abilities between the Viper and Infestor causes Zerg to be weak then i propose that they be buffed in some other way. i want the game to be balanced at the top level of play and then if possible i want it balanced at my level of play. If it can't be balanced in both ways simultaneously while still being a fun game then the top level of play is more important.
On December 03 2016 04:32 Penev wrote:
I think they should try swapping abilities between Infestor and Viper, abduct for Neural parasite for example. Have an animation for the Infestor clinging to the ground when pulling, burrowed is fine as is obviously. This will make it look a lot better but more importantly, abducting will be more difficult to.. pull of :p
that is a good idea too!
in Brood War the Queen could 1-shot a Siege Tank with "parasite" i think it was called. But, the Queen did not have a way to charge up its energy levels the way a Viper does.
i think CONSUME combined with the "Energy For Fighting Unit" trade is just too much in favour of Zerg.
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Nothing on the hydralisk?
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Blizzard, we're begging you: just remove the damn Colossus from the game, significantly change it, or help the disruptor be an outright replacement. Nobody likes a ground, a-move siege unit (in terms of functionality), with a perpendicular wide arc, high ground vision, and zero unit collision (with the exception of other colossi). Units like this promote deathball gameplay, which the game encourages enough as it is.
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On December 03 2016 04:38 Musicus wrote:
I'm not too sure about these changes, but sure let's test things. I just don't want to see too much Colossus and mech play.
Nerf the viper all you want, I don't like the unit at all! Still, reducing the abduct range would be bad because it would affect fighting vs air armies too. So it would be much better to nerf blinding cloud instead in my opinion.
This is really big worry if they nerf abduct. If something is really terrible in SC2 then it is mass air.
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Interesting proposal, swapping abduct for NP, but that would make infestors very good at eliminating key units all by themselves.
A hit squad of 4-5 infestors can single handedly take out tanks or key strategically positioned units.
All they would have to do is pre-cast a group of infested terrans than yank whatever unit they want dead and retreat, all of which can easily be queued into action. That with the ability to cast all spells while burrowed will give zerg a much easier time dismantling a fortified terran opponent.
At least abduct on viper still relies on other units to take out the abductee. Abduct on infestor kind of turns an infestor into a hitman.
Cast a bunch of infested terrans -> have them slow march to fortified position -> burrow move infestors within range of tanks -> abduct tanks into infested terrans -> retreat to safety and wait for energy to build again.
All while burrowed. Sounds like a complex move, and it will be initially, but once the pros get muscle memory trained, it would be easy peasy to use that tactic. I don't know if opponents would have a hard time dealing with that, nor do I know if it is OP, but I think it is a powerful move.
I'm not against moving abilities between viper and infestor, but I am not sure if abduct for NP is the best trade.
I think blinding cloud for NP would be a better switch.
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The viper range will hopefully be reduced.
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Here is an idea, How about instead of reducing the range on the abduct cast, you reduce the range the target can be pulled. That way vipers retain more survivability against units like templar, vikings, and tempest but the units that they pull (with the exception of tanks) are slightly less vulnerable when abducted. Thors, ravens and liberators will always be great targets for abduct so these would be the units that would be stronger against viper from the mech point of view. This change would have a much smaller impact than what is proposed. The only other solution I could come up with is reducing the rate at which vipers can consume buildings for energy.
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I have no idea anymore... and I don't think blizzard do either
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On December 03 2016 06:17 Exquisite7 wrote:
Here is an idea, How about instead of reducing the range on the abduct cast, you reduce the range the target can be pulled. That way vipers retain more survivability against units like templar, vikings, and tempest but the units that they pull (with the exception of tanks) are slightly less vulnerable when abducted. Thors, ravens and liberators will always be great targets for abduct so these would be the units that would be stronger against viper from the mech point of view. This change would have a much smaller impact than what is proposed. The only other solution I could come up with is reducing the rate at which vipers can consume buildings for energy.
So vipers can still safely abduct a unit, but that unit is not abducted so close to the viper. Sounds like a good option. It also gives the abductee a chance to escape.
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On December 03 2016 04:34 ArtyK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2016 04:32 Penev wrote:On December 03 2016 03:45 redloser wrote:
Uhm, why not remove the Hydra buff rather than buffing Colossi? For the Viper change, nerfing the duration of BC might be okay since it is mostly used in ZvMech unlike in HotS, but reducing the Abduct range is a no-no; otherwise you can't really fight against the skytoss without it. Because buffing is fun! Alright let's let reapers throw actual widow mines!
Allow floating buildings to land on and kill all units beneath them.
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Oh the carnage! Imagine an armada of buildings floating above a massive terran army!
It would be suffocating!
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EPT
