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On December 05 2016 17:39 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2016 07:26 parkufarku wrote:On December 05 2016 06:33 JackONeill wrote:On December 05 2016 05:20 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 05 2016 05:06 Charoisaur wrote:On December 05 2016 04:52 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 04 2016 03:40 Charoisaur wrote:On December 03 2016 22:46 PharaphobiaSC wrote:On December 03 2016 21:52 Charoisaur wrote:On December 03 2016 18:07 Nerchio wrote:
I am tired of Blizzard taking away any good units from Zerg and then you are left with mediocre only. Leave Vipers alone There's a difference between "good" and "too good". Zerg has plenty of good units. The viper in its current state is too good against terran mech and air. because of its strength the raven needed to be buffed again and now tvz lategame is all about massing OP spellcasters. Can you name me two good units? We are getting rekt by anything in lategame... If you don't think zerg has any good units I won't be able to convince you otherwise so I don't even bother. Btw terran has no good units and protoss has no good units. Yeah sure : I guess : Marines are bad, Reaper are bad Medivac are bad Tank are bad (just 13 range, and 70 dmg) Wm are bad Liberators are bad Raven are bad And adept bad, Immortals bad, Phoenix bad, chargelots bad, archons bad, Hight templar bad, Disruptor bad, DT bad, WP bad, Carrier bad. Why don't you switch to zerg, we'll see if you will become the first sc2 player of the world as Zerg so easy and so strong ? ah you're right all t and p units are ridicolously strong while z units are all garbage and need to be buffed. my bad how couldn't I see it.. thanks for reminding me why I want to get out of those balance discussions No, you're missing the point zerg need strong units to deal with the strong units of the other race. It's not a big deal for you that terran has acess to a 13 range unit with just a factory ? Zerg must tech hive in order to get vipers and get a tank counter, but you can't make vikings or HT to counter vipers ? You want that zerg have to wait broodlords tech to have something able to counter tanks ? I can't decide whether this is excellent trolling, or pointless whine. Every unit in the zerg tech tree is used by pros, and zerg isn't underperforming (zerg might even be OP as a whole with the many buffs they recieved with 3.8). Not a single zerg unit is bad at the moment. He has a valid point, while your doesn't. He wasn't even talking about the fact whether Z units are each good or bad. He's talking about why it requires Z to tech to T3 just to counter Terran's T2 unit, which makes 0 sense to me either. Terrans have the best of everything already - most flexibility, safest protection against all-ins, most cost efficient units, and now you're whining because he's bringing up a legit point about how Z needs superior tech unit + investment to beat a T lower tech unit? No because that's how the game works. Tech prevents how early and how massable an unit is.
Exactly, and that's why viper should prevent Terran massing tanks.
Tanks crush all the ground units, and need some counter.
What terrans are doing right now is like if zergs had ultras with 8 armor back, and would have claimed ghost should be nerfed.
On December 05 2016 17:39 JackONeill wrote:
Zerg got insane buffs going their way for this patch. Crying about it, when by every metric you can find zerg is doing extremely well with 3.8, is at an unreachable level of bias.
Where zerg are doing fine ?
IEM Season XI - Gyeonggi qualifier :
Maru-Rogue 2-0
TY-Hyun 2-0
Alive-curious 2-0
Jjackji-Scarlett 2-0
TOP-Snute 2-1
SGL Cup 6 :
herO-Dark 2-1
You have an unreachable level of bias, and you don't provide any facts or real arguments, but just be agressive towards zerg players, and call who don't agree with you "troll"
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On December 06 2016 02:13 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2016 17:39 JackONeill wrote:On December 05 2016 07:26 parkufarku wrote:On December 05 2016 06:33 JackONeill wrote:On December 05 2016 05:20 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 05 2016 05:06 Charoisaur wrote:On December 05 2016 04:52 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 04 2016 03:40 Charoisaur wrote:On December 03 2016 22:46 PharaphobiaSC wrote:On December 03 2016 21:52 Charoisaur wrote:
[quote]
There's a difference between "good" and "too good".
Zerg has plenty of good units. The viper in its current state is too good against terran mech and air.
because of its strength the raven needed to be buffed again and now tvz lategame is all about massing OP spellcasters.
Can you name me two good units? We are getting rekt by anything in lategame... If you don't think zerg has any good units I won't be able to convince you otherwise so I don't even bother. Btw terran has no good units and protoss has no good units. Yeah sure : I guess : Marines are bad, Reaper are bad Medivac are bad Tank are bad (just 13 range, and 70 dmg) Wm are bad Liberators are bad Raven are bad And adept bad, Immortals bad, Phoenix bad, chargelots bad, archons bad, Hight templar bad, Disruptor bad, DT bad, WP bad, Carrier bad. Why don't you switch to zerg, we'll see if you will become the first sc2 player of the world as Zerg so easy and so strong ? ah you're right all t and p units are ridicolously strong while z units are all garbage and need to be buffed. my bad how couldn't I see it.. thanks for reminding me why I want to get out of those balance discussions No, you're missing the point zerg need strong units to deal with the strong units of the other race. It's not a big deal for you that terran has acess to a 13 range unit with just a factory ? Zerg must tech hive in order to get vipers and get a tank counter, but you can't make vikings or HT to counter vipers ? You want that zerg have to wait broodlords tech to have something able to counter tanks ? I can't decide whether this is excellent trolling, or pointless whine. Every unit in the zerg tech tree is used by pros, and zerg isn't underperforming (zerg might even be OP as a whole with the many buffs they recieved with 3.8). Not a single zerg unit is bad at the moment. He has a valid point, while your doesn't. He wasn't even talking about the fact whether Z units are each good or bad. He's talking about why it requires Z to tech to T3 just to counter Terran's T2 unit, which makes 0 sense to me either. Terrans have the best of everything already - most flexibility, safest protection against all-ins, most cost efficient units, and now you're whining because he's bringing up a legit point about how Z needs superior tech unit + investment to beat a T lower tech unit? No because that's how the game works. Tech prevents how early and how massable an unit is. Exactly, and that's why viper should prevent Terran massing tanks. Tanks crush all the ground units, and need some counter. What terrans are doing right now is like if zergs had ultras with 8 armor back, and would have claimed ghost should be nerfed. Show nested quote +On December 05 2016 17:39 JackONeill wrote:
Zerg got insane buffs going their way for this patch. Crying about it, when by every metric you can find zerg is doing extremely well with 3.8, is at an unreachable level of bias.
Where zerg are doing fine ? IEM Season XI - Gyeonggi qualifier : Maru-Rogue 2-0 TY-Hyun 2-0 Alive-curious 2-0 Jjackji-Scarlett 2-0 TOP-Snute 2-1 SGL Cup 6 : herO-Dark 2-1 You have an unreachable level of bias, and you don't provide any facts or real arguments, but just be agressive towards zerg players, and call who don't agree with you "troll"
Yeah because stating "you don't provide arguments" and "you're biased" are such incredibly strong... arguments.
Are you mentionning the online qualifier where (according to liquipedia) 6 zergs passed, for 3 terrans and 3 protosses, when 15 terrans entered the qualifier, 12 protosses and 12 zergs? Yeah seems to me zerg is doing very poorly indeed.
And I also can handpick BO3 results to match my "extremely unbiased opinon" (byul 2-0 bunny and major, soo 2-0 billowy)... if i was so unbiased i didn't take into account that byul is much better than bunny and major, and that soo is much better than billowy ; just like Maru, TY and Alive are arguably some of the best terran players at the moment, and that korean victories against foreigners aren't that big of a surprise.
Okay enough with the irony. To be fair i didn't watch the qualifiers, but i'm gonna go full psychic and suppose that the TvZ wins were relying much on mech play, and that therefore vipers weren't used much. Feel free to correct me though, as i said i'm hypothesizing.
So when zerg's anti mech play recieved nothing but buffs (except for BL range maybe) with 3.8, the patch that was supposed to make mech viable, i'm really waiting for some pro TvZ games where the terran player wins with a non-cheesy mech style.
And if there's none to be found, maybe, just maybe that the very dominant zerg caster against mech being discussed to get nerfed is based on something. And by the way, no one said that vipers weren't needed for zerg. They're a legitimate counter to tank and turret lines, and as I stated many times before, i feel that blinding cloud is a very legit ability. My beef is with the abduct.
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On December 06 2016 03:36 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2016 02:13 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 05 2016 17:39 JackONeill wrote:On December 05 2016 07:26 parkufarku wrote:On December 05 2016 06:33 JackONeill wrote:On December 05 2016 05:20 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 05 2016 05:06 Charoisaur wrote:On December 05 2016 04:52 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 04 2016 03:40 Charoisaur wrote:On December 03 2016 22:46 PharaphobiaSC wrote:
[quote]
Can you name me two good units? We are getting rekt by anything in lategame... If you don't think zerg has any good units I won't be able to convince you otherwise so I don't even bother. Btw terran has no good units and protoss has no good units. Yeah sure : I guess : Marines are bad, Reaper are bad Medivac are bad Tank are bad (just 13 range, and 70 dmg) Wm are bad Liberators are bad Raven are bad And adept bad, Immortals bad, Phoenix bad, chargelots bad, archons bad, Hight templar bad, Disruptor bad, DT bad, WP bad, Carrier bad. Why don't you switch to zerg, we'll see if you will become the first sc2 player of the world as Zerg so easy and so strong ? ah you're right all t and p units are ridicolously strong while z units are all garbage and need to be buffed. my bad how couldn't I see it.. thanks for reminding me why I want to get out of those balance discussions No, you're missing the point zerg need strong units to deal with the strong units of the other race. It's not a big deal for you that terran has acess to a 13 range unit with just a factory ? Zerg must tech hive in order to get vipers and get a tank counter, but you can't make vikings or HT to counter vipers ? You want that zerg have to wait broodlords tech to have something able to counter tanks ? I can't decide whether this is excellent trolling, or pointless whine. Every unit in the zerg tech tree is used by pros, and zerg isn't underperforming (zerg might even be OP as a whole with the many buffs they recieved with 3.8). Not a single zerg unit is bad at the moment. He has a valid point, while your doesn't. He wasn't even talking about the fact whether Z units are each good or bad. He's talking about why it requires Z to tech to T3 just to counter Terran's T2 unit, which makes 0 sense to me either. Terrans have the best of everything already - most flexibility, safest protection against all-ins, most cost efficient units, and now you're whining because he's bringing up a legit point about how Z needs superior tech unit + investment to beat a T lower tech unit? No because that's how the game works. Tech prevents how early and how massable an unit is. Exactly, and that's why viper should prevent Terran massing tanks. Tanks crush all the ground units, and need some counter. What terrans are doing right now is like if zergs had ultras with 8 armor back, and would have claimed ghost should be nerfed. On December 05 2016 17:39 JackONeill wrote:
Zerg got insane buffs going their way for this patch. Crying about it, when by every metric you can find zerg is doing extremely well with 3.8, is at an unreachable level of bias.
Where zerg are doing fine ? IEM Season XI - Gyeonggi qualifier : Maru-Rogue 2-0 TY-Hyun 2-0 Alive-curious 2-0 Jjackji-Scarlett 2-0 TOP-Snute 2-1 SGL Cup 6 : herO-Dark 2-1 You have an unreachable level of bias, and you don't provide any facts or real arguments, but just be agressive towards zerg players, and call who don't agree with you "troll" Yeah because stating "you don't provide arguments" and "you're biased" are such incredibly strong... arguments. Are you mentionning the online qualifier where (according to liquipedia) 6 zergs passed, for 3 terrans and 3 protosses, when 15 terrans entered the qualifier, 12 protosses and 12 zergs? Yeah seems to me zerg is doing very poorly indeed. And I also can handpick BO3 results to match my "extremely unbiased opinon" (byul 2-0 bunny and major, soo 2-0 billowy)... if i was so unbiased i didn't take into account that byul is much better than bunny and major, and that soo is much better than billowy ; just like Maru, TY and Alive are arguably some of the best terran players at the moment, and that korean victories against foreigners aren't that big of a surprise. Okay enough with the irony. To be fair i didn't watch the qualifiers, but i'm gonna go full psychic and suppose that the TvZ wins were relying much on mech play, and that therefore vipers weren't used much. Feel free to correct me though, as i said i'm hypothesizing. So when zerg's anti mech play recieved nothing but buffs (except for BL range maybe) with 3.8, the patch that was supposed to make mech viable, i'm really waiting for some pro TvZ games where the terran player wins with a non-cheesy mech style. And if there's none to be found, maybe, just maybe that the very dominant zerg caster against mech being discussed to get nerfed is based on something. And by the way, no one said that vipers weren't needed for zerg. They're a legitimate counter to tank and turret lines, and as I stated many times before, i feel that blinding cloud is a very legit ability. My beef is with the abduct.
He is just being disingenuous. No Terran player qualified using mech in TvZ. They all played basicaly the same style used pre-3.8 - Bio/mines/tank/libs. Viper's blinding cloud is not even used vs Bio, therefore a nerf in blinding cloud is definitely ok. In fact, the only pro player I've seen using mech in tournaments was Gumiho. Look how far he went in those tournaments.
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Like artyK said, removing consume ability of vipers would allow to keep current BC and abduct but without the possibility to spam which is imho the best way to deal with the problem.
A fine tuning of gain of energy overtime is possible to reduce the nerf of the consume removal, but I would definitely prefer this option
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On December 06 2016 03:45 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2016 03:36 JackONeill wrote:On December 06 2016 02:13 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 05 2016 17:39 JackONeill wrote:On December 05 2016 07:26 parkufarku wrote:On December 05 2016 06:33 JackONeill wrote:On December 05 2016 05:20 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 05 2016 05:06 Charoisaur wrote:On December 05 2016 04:52 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 04 2016 03:40 Charoisaur wrote:
[quote]
If you don't think zerg has any good units I won't be able to convince you otherwise so I don't even bother.
Btw terran has no good units and protoss has no good units. Yeah sure : I guess : Marines are bad, Reaper are bad Medivac are bad Tank are bad (just 13 range, and 70 dmg) Wm are bad Liberators are bad Raven are bad And adept bad, Immortals bad, Phoenix bad, chargelots bad, archons bad, Hight templar bad, Disruptor bad, DT bad, WP bad, Carrier bad. Why don't you switch to zerg, we'll see if you will become the first sc2 player of the world as Zerg so easy and so strong ? ah you're right all t and p units are ridicolously strong while z units are all garbage and need to be buffed. my bad how couldn't I see it.. thanks for reminding me why I want to get out of those balance discussions No, you're missing the point zerg need strong units to deal with the strong units of the other race. It's not a big deal for you that terran has acess to a 13 range unit with just a factory ? Zerg must tech hive in order to get vipers and get a tank counter, but you can't make vikings or HT to counter vipers ? You want that zerg have to wait broodlords tech to have something able to counter tanks ? I can't decide whether this is excellent trolling, or pointless whine. Every unit in the zerg tech tree is used by pros, and zerg isn't underperforming (zerg might even be OP as a whole with the many buffs they recieved with 3.8). Not a single zerg unit is bad at the moment. He has a valid point, while your doesn't. He wasn't even talking about the fact whether Z units are each good or bad. He's talking about why it requires Z to tech to T3 just to counter Terran's T2 unit, which makes 0 sense to me either. Terrans have the best of everything already - most flexibility, safest protection against all-ins, most cost efficient units, and now you're whining because he's bringing up a legit point about how Z needs superior tech unit + investment to beat a T lower tech unit? No because that's how the game works. Tech prevents how early and how massable an unit is. Exactly, and that's why viper should prevent Terran massing tanks. Tanks crush all the ground units, and need some counter. What terrans are doing right now is like if zergs had ultras with 8 armor back, and would have claimed ghost should be nerfed. On December 05 2016 17:39 JackONeill wrote:
Zerg got insane buffs going their way for this patch. Crying about it, when by every metric you can find zerg is doing extremely well with 3.8, is at an unreachable level of bias.
Where zerg are doing fine ? IEM Season XI - Gyeonggi qualifier : Maru-Rogue 2-0 TY-Hyun 2-0 Alive-curious 2-0 Jjackji-Scarlett 2-0 TOP-Snute 2-1 SGL Cup 6 : herO-Dark 2-1 You have an unreachable level of bias, and you don't provide any facts or real arguments, but just be agressive towards zerg players, and call who don't agree with you "troll" Yeah because stating "you don't provide arguments" and "you're biased" are such incredibly strong... arguments. Are you mentionning the online qualifier where (according to liquipedia) 6 zergs passed, for 3 terrans and 3 protosses, when 15 terrans entered the qualifier, 12 protosses and 12 zergs? Yeah seems to me zerg is doing very poorly indeed. And I also can handpick BO3 results to match my "extremely unbiased opinon" (byul 2-0 bunny and major, soo 2-0 billowy)... if i was so unbiased i didn't take into account that byul is much better than bunny and major, and that soo is much better than billowy ; just like Maru, TY and Alive are arguably some of the best terran players at the moment, and that korean victories against foreigners aren't that big of a surprise. Okay enough with the irony. To be fair i didn't watch the qualifiers, but i'm gonna go full psychic and suppose that the TvZ wins were relying much on mech play, and that therefore vipers weren't used much. Feel free to correct me though, as i said i'm hypothesizing. So when zerg's anti mech play recieved nothing but buffs (except for BL range maybe) with 3.8, the patch that was supposed to make mech viable, i'm really waiting for some pro TvZ games where the terran player wins with a non-cheesy mech style. And if there's none to be found, maybe, just maybe that the very dominant zerg caster against mech being discussed to get nerfed is based on something. And by the way, no one said that vipers weren't needed for zerg. They're a legitimate counter to tank and turret lines, and as I stated many times before, i feel that blinding cloud is a very legit ability. My beef is with the abduct. He is just being disingenuous. No Terran player qualified using mech in TvZ. They all played basicaly the same style used pre-3.8 - Bio/mines/tank/libs. Viper's blinding cloud is not even used vs Bio, therefore a nerf in blinding cloud is definitely ok. In fact, the only pro player I've seen using mech in tournaments was Gumiho. Look how far he went in those tournaments.
To be fair it is unlikely that anyone would alter their play style drastically right after the patch in an important qualifying tournament unless the patch was clearly broken.
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People need to understand that viper is a big bandaid for problems that zerg had since WoL, and if it's not this strong zerg would be basicaly useless.
Nerfing abduct would make it impossible to attack into siege lines and protoss armies with disruptors.
Nerfing blinding cloud would make it impossible to defend a mech push, specialy early when there's only 2 or 3 vipers, and impossible to counter lurkers.
Nerfing the PB would bring zerg back to previous SC2 versions, where it's impossible to beat a late game air army.
It's literaly what broodlord was in WoL, not a choice, but a MUST HAVE unit.
SH could be removed, it will always be a problematic unit, either too strong or too weak, there's no "ok" point. Would be cool if they repurposed it, making it an anti air unit, much like a ground carrier, but that would take ages for blizzard to balance too.
Hydra range, at least for the air attack, is a must have now that carriers are back in the game.
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On December 06 2016 04:53 xTJx wrote:
People need to understand that viper is a big bandaid for problems that zerg had since WoL, and if it's not this strong zerg would be basicaly useless.
Nerfing abduct would make it impossible to attack into siege lines and protoss armies with disruptors.
Nerfing blinding cloud would make it impossible to defend a mech push, specialy early when there's only 2 or 3 vipers, and impossible to counter lurkers.
Nerfing the PB would bring zerg back to previous SC2 versions, where it's impossible to beat a late game air army.
It's literaly what broodlord was in WoL, not a choice, but a MUST HAVE unit.
SH could be removed, it will always be a problematic unit, either too strong or too weak, there's no "ok" point. Would be cool if they repurposed it, making it an anti air unit, much like a ground carrier, but that would take ages for blizzard to balance too.
Hydra range, at least for the air attack, is a must have now that carriers are back in the game.
I agree, Swarm Host should just be removed, it's so horribly designed that it will never be in a good state of balance, it will always be imba strong or weak, it also massively overlaps with the Viper which is an obvious anti mech/area denial unit.
But yes, everything else is so spot on, Zerg would be so pathetically weak without the Viper. Tank lines and Protoss deathballs would just be unstoppable. Especially with buffed Colossus.
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On December 06 2016 03:36 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2016 02:13 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 05 2016 17:39 JackONeill wrote:On December 05 2016 07:26 parkufarku wrote:On December 05 2016 06:33 JackONeill wrote:On December 05 2016 05:20 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 05 2016 05:06 Charoisaur wrote:On December 05 2016 04:52 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 04 2016 03:40 Charoisaur wrote:On December 03 2016 22:46 PharaphobiaSC wrote:
[quote]
Can you name me two good units? We are getting rekt by anything in lategame... If you don't think zerg has any good units I won't be able to convince you otherwise so I don't even bother. Btw terran has no good units and protoss has no good units. Yeah sure : I guess : Marines are bad, Reaper are bad Medivac are bad Tank are bad (just 13 range, and 70 dmg) Wm are bad Liberators are bad Raven are bad And adept bad, Immortals bad, Phoenix bad, chargelots bad, archons bad, Hight templar bad, Disruptor bad, DT bad, WP bad, Carrier bad. Why don't you switch to zerg, we'll see if you will become the first sc2 player of the world as Zerg so easy and so strong ? ah you're right all t and p units are ridicolously strong while z units are all garbage and need to be buffed. my bad how couldn't I see it.. thanks for reminding me why I want to get out of those balance discussions No, you're missing the point zerg need strong units to deal with the strong units of the other race. It's not a big deal for you that terran has acess to a 13 range unit with just a factory ? Zerg must tech hive in order to get vipers and get a tank counter, but you can't make vikings or HT to counter vipers ? You want that zerg have to wait broodlords tech to have something able to counter tanks ? I can't decide whether this is excellent trolling, or pointless whine. Every unit in the zerg tech tree is used by pros, and zerg isn't underperforming (zerg might even be OP as a whole with the many buffs they recieved with 3.8). Not a single zerg unit is bad at the moment. He has a valid point, while your doesn't. He wasn't even talking about the fact whether Z units are each good or bad. He's talking about why it requires Z to tech to T3 just to counter Terran's T2 unit, which makes 0 sense to me either. Terrans have the best of everything already - most flexibility, safest protection against all-ins, most cost efficient units, and now you're whining because he's bringing up a legit point about how Z needs superior tech unit + investment to beat a T lower tech unit? No because that's how the game works. Tech prevents how early and how massable an unit is. Exactly, and that's why viper should prevent Terran massing tanks. Tanks crush all the ground units, and need some counter. What terrans are doing right now is like if zergs had ultras with 8 armor back, and would have claimed ghost should be nerfed. On December 05 2016 17:39 JackONeill wrote:
Zerg got insane buffs going their way for this patch. Crying about it, when by every metric you can find zerg is doing extremely well with 3.8, is at an unreachable level of bias.
Where zerg are doing fine ? IEM Season XI - Gyeonggi qualifier : Maru-Rogue 2-0 TY-Hyun 2-0 Alive-curious 2-0 Jjackji-Scarlett 2-0 TOP-Snute 2-1 SGL Cup 6 : herO-Dark 2-1 You have an unreachable level of bias, and you don't provide any facts or real arguments, but just be agressive towards zerg players, and call who don't agree with you "troll" Yeah because stating "you don't provide arguments" and "you're biased" are such incredibly strong... arguments. Are you mentionning the online qualifier where (according to liquipedia) 6 zergs passed, for 3 terrans and 3 protosses, when 15 terrans entered the qualifier, 12 protosses and 12 zergs? Yeah seems to me zerg is doing very poorly indeed. And I also can handpick BO3 results to match my "extremely unbiased opinon" (byul 2-0 bunny and major, soo 2-0 billowy)... if i was so unbiased i didn't take into account that byul is much better than bunny and major, and that soo is much better than billowy ; just like Maru, TY and Alive are arguably some of the best terran players at the moment, and that korean victories against foreigners aren't that big of a surprise. Okay enough with the irony. To be fair i didn't watch the qualifiers, but i'm gonna go full psychic and suppose that the TvZ wins were relying much on mech play, and that therefore vipers weren't used much. Feel free to correct me though, as i said i'm hypothesizing. So when zerg's anti mech play recieved nothing but buffs (except for BL range maybe) with 3.8, the patch that was supposed to make mech viable, i'm really waiting for some pro TvZ games where the terran player wins with a non-cheesy mech style. And if there's none to be found, maybe, just maybe that the very dominant zerg caster against mech being discussed to get nerfed is based on something. And by the way, no one said that vipers weren't needed for zerg. They're a legitimate counter to tank and turret lines, and as I stated many times before, i feel that blinding cloud is a very legit ability. My beef is with the abduct.
It's like it pleases me to play full lings, and so i say terran is broken cause hellbat hard counter my full lings style...
You're like :
I should do whatever i do, no adapt at all to the other, make mech units i like, and i should win, else zerg is so broken...
Just makes vikings, and you will hard counter vipers...
But no, you don't learn how to play, better whine and say : "Zerg so broken winning everything".
When a terran win : "it's normal he is better than the other", when Z win : "look how zerg is soo strong, their race should be nerfed".
I'm not like you :
I don't say TY, Alive and Maru don't deserve to win, but " Look ! they play the same race than you, and manage to beat far better zerg that you ever met on ladder."
There is no such thing of pro level games where Zerg crush Terran easily like you try to say, you even admit you don't watch pro level games :
your "Zerg so OP, nerf viper" are just from your personal game, and it's just a learn to play issue as you're not a top GM.
The thing you prefer whine to get the unit nerfed before even starting to learn how to counter them, and you're not even trying to learn how better player deal with them.
Do play zerg yourself, you will realize Viper isn't the unit that crush everything on the game like you're saying, but actually you'r not building them very often as it's really expensive, and fragile.
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On December 06 2016 05:23 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2016 03:36 JackONeill wrote:On December 06 2016 02:13 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 05 2016 17:39 JackONeill wrote:On December 05 2016 07:26 parkufarku wrote:On December 05 2016 06:33 JackONeill wrote:On December 05 2016 05:20 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 05 2016 05:06 Charoisaur wrote:On December 05 2016 04:52 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 04 2016 03:40 Charoisaur wrote:
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If you don't think zerg has any good units I won't be able to convince you otherwise so I don't even bother.
Btw terran has no good units and protoss has no good units. Yeah sure : I guess : Marines are bad, Reaper are bad Medivac are bad Tank are bad (just 13 range, and 70 dmg) Wm are bad Liberators are bad Raven are bad And adept bad, Immortals bad, Phoenix bad, chargelots bad, archons bad, Hight templar bad, Disruptor bad, DT bad, WP bad, Carrier bad. Why don't you switch to zerg, we'll see if you will become the first sc2 player of the world as Zerg so easy and so strong ? ah you're right all t and p units are ridicolously strong while z units are all garbage and need to be buffed. my bad how couldn't I see it.. thanks for reminding me why I want to get out of those balance discussions No, you're missing the point zerg need strong units to deal with the strong units of the other race. It's not a big deal for you that terran has acess to a 13 range unit with just a factory ? Zerg must tech hive in order to get vipers and get a tank counter, but you can't make vikings or HT to counter vipers ? You want that zerg have to wait broodlords tech to have something able to counter tanks ? I can't decide whether this is excellent trolling, or pointless whine. Every unit in the zerg tech tree is used by pros, and zerg isn't underperforming (zerg might even be OP as a whole with the many buffs they recieved with 3.8). Not a single zerg unit is bad at the moment. He has a valid point, while your doesn't. He wasn't even talking about the fact whether Z units are each good or bad. He's talking about why it requires Z to tech to T3 just to counter Terran's T2 unit, which makes 0 sense to me either. Terrans have the best of everything already - most flexibility, safest protection against all-ins, most cost efficient units, and now you're whining because he's bringing up a legit point about how Z needs superior tech unit + investment to beat a T lower tech unit? No because that's how the game works. Tech prevents how early and how massable an unit is. Exactly, and that's why viper should prevent Terran massing tanks. Tanks crush all the ground units, and need some counter. What terrans are doing right now is like if zergs had ultras with 8 armor back, and would have claimed ghost should be nerfed. On December 05 2016 17:39 JackONeill wrote:
Zerg got insane buffs going their way for this patch. Crying about it, when by every metric you can find zerg is doing extremely well with 3.8, is at an unreachable level of bias.
Where zerg are doing fine ? IEM Season XI - Gyeonggi qualifier : Maru-Rogue 2-0 TY-Hyun 2-0 Alive-curious 2-0 Jjackji-Scarlett 2-0 TOP-Snute 2-1 SGL Cup 6 : herO-Dark 2-1 You have an unreachable level of bias, and you don't provide any facts or real arguments, but just be agressive towards zerg players, and call who don't agree with you "troll" Yeah because stating "you don't provide arguments" and "you're biased" are such incredibly strong... arguments. Are you mentionning the online qualifier where (according to liquipedia) 6 zergs passed, for 3 terrans and 3 protosses, when 15 terrans entered the qualifier, 12 protosses and 12 zergs? Yeah seems to me zerg is doing very poorly indeed. And I also can handpick BO3 results to match my "extremely unbiased opinon" (byul 2-0 bunny and major, soo 2-0 billowy)... if i was so unbiased i didn't take into account that byul is much better than bunny and major, and that soo is much better than billowy ; just like Maru, TY and Alive are arguably some of the best terran players at the moment, and that korean victories against foreigners aren't that big of a surprise. Okay enough with the irony. To be fair i didn't watch the qualifiers, but i'm gonna go full psychic and suppose that the TvZ wins were relying much on mech play, and that therefore vipers weren't used much. Feel free to correct me though, as i said i'm hypothesizing. So when zerg's anti mech play recieved nothing but buffs (except for BL range maybe) with 3.8, the patch that was supposed to make mech viable, i'm really waiting for some pro TvZ games where the terran player wins with a non-cheesy mech style. And if there's none to be found, maybe, just maybe that the very dominant zerg caster against mech being discussed to get nerfed is based on something. And by the way, no one said that vipers weren't needed for zerg. They're a legitimate counter to tank and turret lines, and as I stated many times before, i feel that blinding cloud is a very legit ability. My beef is with the abduct. It's like it pleases me to play full lings, and so i say terran is broken cause hellbat hard counter my full lings style... You're like : I should do whatever i do, no adapt at all to the other, make mech units i like, and i should win, else zerg is so broken... Just makes vikings, and you will hard counter vipers... But no, you don't learn how to play, better whine and say : "Zerg so broken winning everything". When a terran win : "it's normal he is better than the other", when Z win : "look how zerg is soo strong, their race should be nerfed". I'm not like you : I don't say TY, Alive and Maru don't deserve to win, but " Look ! they play the same race than you, and manage to beat far better zerg that you ever met on ladder." There is no such thing of pro level games where Zerg crush Terran easily like you try to say, you even admit you don't watch pro level games : your "Zerg so OP, nerf viper" are just from your personal game, and it's just a learn to play issue as you're not a top GM. The thing you prefer whine to get the unit nerfed before even starting to learn how to counter them, and you're not even trying to learn how better player deal with them. Do play zerg yourself, you will realize Viper isn't the unit that crush everything on the game like you're saying, but actually you'r not building them very often as it's really expensive, and fragile.
"Just makes vikings, and you will hard counter vipers... " has to be the most hilarious thing i've read on a TL forum since "the pylon overcharge is a skill based mechanism" from few months ago. If you're oblivious enough to think people playing mech aren't building vikings by default, then you don't know anything about what you're talking about.
And no one but you is whining here buddy. By the way that's a pretty impressive shed of tears :
On December 06 2016 05:23 Tyrhanius wrote:When a terran win : "it's normal he is better than the other", when Z win : "look how zerg is soo strong, their race should be nerfed".
So instead of basking in victimization concerning the soon to come nerf of your race, try to consolate yourself by seeing that the general opinion (shared by blizzard apparently) is that the viper is too strong against mech in combinaison with the other buffs zerg recieved.
Oh and by the way, i'm not basing this on personal experience. I'm basing this mainly on snute's stream, when playing against a meching terran he stated something like "with vipers/hydra/SH, mech basically can't ever move out or cross the map, while getting chipped away by SHs and viper abducts".
And as i'm writing this i just saw, get ready to cry some more because they're apparently considering reverting the hydra nerf (so hopefully we'll see some protoss players on the ladder).
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On December 06 2016 05:46 JackONeill wrote:
And as i'm writing this i just saw, get ready to cry some more because they're apparently considering reverting the hydra nerf (so hopefully we'll see some protoss players on the ladder).
And it's what must be done, not "nerf viper non sense".
I've always said, i have no idea how protoss would have dealt with 7 range hydra viper while the MU was already around 50% before patch, as they have received no buff.
ZvP was maybe the best MU of LOTV, and i don't want DK to kill the MU like he does with ZvT of HOTS.
For ZvT, just want the LBM vs MMMM back on LOTV, and not the boring "mass tank/PF/tourett/mass raven" of HOTS.
No idea how to make playing vs mech fun, but it's certainly not this way, and nerfing viper won't make TvZ more fun, but more OP, while still super boring.
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On December 06 2016 06:26 Tyrhanius wrote:
For ZvT, just want the LBM vs MMMM back on LOTV, and not the boring "mass tank/PF/tourett/mass raven" of HOTS.
Nerf the raven and you will realize the rest is nowhere near as strong as you think it is.
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On December 06 2016 07:10 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2016 06:26 Tyrhanius wrote:
For ZvT, just want the LBM vs MMMM back on LOTV, and not the boring "mass tank/PF/tourett/mass raven" of HOTS.
Nerf the raven and you will realize the rest is nowhere near as strong as you think it is.
exactly. I don't understand why people who don't want mech to be viable always refer to the mass raven styles at the end of HotS. this is not what mech players want. nerf the raven, make ground mech stronger and you'll see mech won't be nowhere as boring.
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On December 06 2016 07:10 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2016 06:26 Tyrhanius wrote:
For ZvT, just want the LBM vs MMMM back on LOTV, and not the boring "mass tank/PF/tourett/mass raven" of HOTS.
Nerf the raven and you will realize the rest is nowhere near as strong as you think it is.
Tanks does 70 dmg vs armored ! it was only 50 on HOTS !
It's now the unit that have the biggest range of the game !
They got liberator now, they have now cyclon that has 45 dps vs armored !
+ the raven, how can you tell it won't be stronger than mech of HOTS...
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On December 06 2016 07:17 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2016 07:10 Lexender wrote:On December 06 2016 06:26 Tyrhanius wrote:
For ZvT, just want the LBM vs MMMM back on LOTV, and not the boring "mass tank/PF/tourett/mass raven" of HOTS.
Nerf the raven and you will realize the rest is nowhere near as strong as you think it is. exactly. I don't understand why people who don't want mech to be viable always refer to the mass raven styles at the end of HotS. this is not what mech players want. nerf the raven, make ground mech stronger and you'll see mech won't be nowhere as boring.
This is textbook straw man fallacy. They claim mech is "mass tank/PF/turrets/mass raven", while many have made clear that this is not the type of mech people want being viable. Then they claim "mech is boring", based on their own definition of mech, and then comes the obvious following of "therefore mech must not be made viable".
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On December 06 2016 07:30 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2016 07:10 Lexender wrote:On December 06 2016 06:26 Tyrhanius wrote:
For ZvT, just want the LBM vs MMMM back on LOTV, and not the boring "mass tank/PF/tourett/mass raven" of HOTS.
Nerf the raven and you will realize the rest is nowhere near as strong as you think it is. Tanks does 70 dmg vs armored ! it was only 50 on HOTS ! It's now the unit that have the biggest range of the game ! They got liberator now, they have now cyclon that has 45 dps vs armored ! + the raven, how can you tell it won't be stronger than mech of HOTS...
Because theres many things that have change also.
I think they should simply try it, make the next change be removing all the spells from the raven and nothing else, and you will see mech will have 0% chance of being turtle without dying in the first 15-20 minutes no matter how hard you try, because altough tanks are strong (of course they are thats the whole point of this patch) without an infinite resources unit aka the raven, your army grows weaker every second compared to the enemy.
Also the cyclone is garbagge right now past the early game, try it and see for yourself.
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On December 06 2016 07:37 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2016 07:17 Charoisaur wrote:On December 06 2016 07:10 Lexender wrote:On December 06 2016 06:26 Tyrhanius wrote:
For ZvT, just want the LBM vs MMMM back on LOTV, and not the boring "mass tank/PF/tourett/mass raven" of HOTS.
Nerf the raven and you will realize the rest is nowhere near as strong as you think it is. exactly. I don't understand why people who don't want mech to be viable always refer to the mass raven styles at the end of HotS. this is not what mech players want. nerf the raven, make ground mech stronger and you'll see mech won't be nowhere as boring. This is textbook straw man fallacy. They claim mech is "mass tank/PF/turrets/mass raven", while many have made clear that this is not the type of mech people want being viable. Then they claim "mech is boring", based on their own definition of mech, and then comes the obvious following of "therefore mech must not be made viable".
I know people want tank mech to be viable with strong harass potential, my ideal mech is tank lines with banshees flying around and Viking/Hellion hit squads, making for a very apm heavy and high skill cap style of play for Terrans to delve into.
But the balance and design team has screwed up too many things for good mech like that to ever exist, and it's many reasons..
1) strength of massing high damage energy based casters and mass aerial armies in general for all races make ground based mech inferior to utilize.
2) new economy forcing tank based mech to stretch itself too thin, as rapidly depleting bases require further and harder to defend territories to be held
3) No rapid response unit, tank based mech was good in BW because Vultures were such versatile and fast units, they could raid enemy expansions, set up mine fields to buy time for the tank lines to re position themselves, and even to buy time as half way decent front line fighters if well micro managed, the Hellion/Banshee/Cyclone all fail spectacularly where the Vulture succeeded.
4) Numerous hard counters, some of which has been lessened by the improved tank damage but some units like Archons, Immortals, and sky Protoss in general are all by their very nature powerful vs mech comps
5) Swarm Hosts and Vipers seem to exist for no other purpose then to counter mech, the Swarm Host is pretty useless unless fighting mech and Abduct/Blinding cloud is useless vs small mobile units (everything not mech) and imbalanced vs. things that don't move fast (everything that is mech)
These are the reasons that trying to make straight factory viable as a play style is a long lost cause, at least with David Kim at the helm of this operation. Yes Terran deserves factory viable mech but the game doesn't need to further suffer from cancer styles like mass Raven/PF/Tank just so Terran can have more diversity. I'm just praying to the Gods that at least bio mech be viable, the golden age of ZvT was Tank based MMM vs. Ling/Bling/Muta
I quit this game after 8.5K ladder games and 150 dollars because plain and simple this design team is bad and quite clearly doesn't play/watch/have any vision for this game other then watching it cough and gasp for breath until nobody outside of an extremely small niche cares at all. Once you quit the game and look from the outside at how poorly SC2 is being managed it just makes you cringe and step even more away from it. I'm no BW super fan or anything, but it's just kind of pathetic that a game that old can be so well designed and remain so popular compared to it's comparitively speaking brand new incarnation, David Kim should just be ashamed at this point, he's utterly clueless.
edited for grammar
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On December 05 2016 18:00 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2016 08:33 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On December 03 2016 07:20 avilo wrote:On December 03 2016 06:35 Liquid`Snute wrote:
Can't colossus start with 7 range instead of 6? What about trimming off 15-20% of thermal lance time?
Modifying damage to 12+4 light is so extreme, what about +2 vs light damage and take it from there?
I would also bring Interceptor cost up to 10 (at least). It trades too well at max and killing interceptors isn't even an option now. Only to win by the no-interceptors-left-push-forward condition. Carrier should spawn with 8 interceptors too because they are too weak initially. You already spent a century building the thing so it should spawn with 8. Gravaton catapult upgrade should be removed and launch fire rate should be put somewhere betwen before and after upgrades. For defensive purposes, carriers should be able to build interceptors faster, especially if you reduce the launch fire rate I think this would help battles become more fair. Carrier strength is too binary.
About Viper. It HAS TO stay strong for Zerg to be able to defeat mech especially on medium size maps such as overgrowth.
Tweaking values won't change the fact that zerg is doing one of these:
- Attacking head on with a big sky zerg/viper/transfuse based army, bursting out all spells
- Taking small hit and run trades using viper spells and Consume continously (combos well with swarm host)
Simply nerfing the viper abilities won't solve the identity crisis of the viper. The unit by design is created to be in one of those modes and consume ENCOURAGES hit and run/over time play. If you remove that, you force straight up fights and thus possibly stale board state up until the point of combat. What do they want? A mobile hit and run ninja unit, or a big support caster for grand broodlord/corruptor/infestor viper? Because right now there is no doubt that Mass Raven destroys sky-zerg and that Mass Viper/Hydra/Swarmhost kill-them-before-they-get-there taking free trades is better. I do think Terran lategame is stronger than Zerg but it's impossible for them to reach that stage. So one should work on fixing both. Viper has been OP for years now. If anything parasitic bomb made it god tier and should never have been added because it makes vikings useless as a counter. Honestly both vipers and ravens needed to have their supply increased to around 4 years ago. These units are too cost efficient and the issue is when you get 10+ of either of them they take over the entire game. Making them cost more supply means you'd be able to get less of them in a maxed out army. TBH let's just all be real here - they are scapegoating random units now because they don't want to admit they made a massive mistake with the hydra, swarmhost, and infestor buffs. These units are at absurd levels of imbalance right now. Rather than make more problems by buffing collosus and nerfing vipers, they should revert all of the ridiculous Zerg changes they made and just admit they were wrong and made a mistake. Too bad we know that won't happen. land your afflicted vikings, move the rest of them away. or do the fake landing nathanias does. or split because you have 10 fingers and I assume you play with a mouse. I thought they already patched out the Viking fake landing interaction with Parasitic Bomb after the last patch
thankfully he has 2 more options then.
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I don't know if PB is too good, but its funny that people complain about it.
Terrans should already be used to spreading the marines, so why whine about PB?
Or is it because mech terrans refuse to learn to spread units, and they want their all encompassing; counter all your shit; camp for hours; god composition to be even easier?
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Everyone is whining about carriers and protoss and how they too powerful and yada yada yada. Terran players, have you ever considered using yamato cannons to focus carriers while using widow mines to kill all the interceptors and turn said carriers into big hot air balloons. Zerg players, have you ever considered hitting a timing attack with lurker hydra before the protoss maxes out on skytoss (which takes a while and leaves the protoss with next to no units because said protoss has to focus on macro, getting bases and improving income for the expensive air units). Because if you are letting protoss do whatever they want for the whole game and then at 15 minutes amoving into a skytoss army expecting to win then the problem isn't the protoss player, the balance team, the matchmaker, it is your problem. You whine that you see a lot of skytoss in PvZ, it's not our fault if you got lurkers that shred our gateway units meat shield and leave the colossi and disruptors unguarded, easily in the reach of your units. if the ground is occupied by stuff that is too strong then one switches to air, it's not starcraft, it's logic.
There is also complaining about pylon overcharge; it is our only way to deflect early lings, marines etc. If you are amoving into overcharged pylons it's your problem, not ours. Terran players, if you wanto to break through a pylon barrier have you ever tried making oh I don't know... A SIEGE TANK?
Zerg players have you ever tried going around the pylons by using drop overlords? There are many paths into a toss base, not just the on protected by these overpowered pylon beasts which apparently disrupt your existence on this planet
Protoss had to adapt to adept and warp prism nerf, to gateway nerfs, colossus nerf, force field nerf in ZvP. So, it's about time you also got your crap together and started adapting to this new balance
With that said. I'm out
P.s. to those who say i am biased: i am plat 1 toss, gold 1 zerg and terran, I play all 3 races and enjoy my time in the lower leagues, if I can do it, you can do it
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On December 06 2016 07:37 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2016 07:17 Charoisaur wrote:On December 06 2016 07:10 Lexender wrote:On December 06 2016 06:26 Tyrhanius wrote:
For ZvT, just want the LBM vs MMMM back on LOTV, and not the boring "mass tank/PF/tourett/mass raven" of HOTS.
Nerf the raven and you will realize the rest is nowhere near as strong as you think it is. exactly. I don't understand why people who don't want mech to be viable always refer to the mass raven styles at the end of HotS. this is not what mech players want. nerf the raven, make ground mech stronger and you'll see mech won't be nowhere as boring. This is textbook straw man fallacy. They claim mech is "mass tank/PF/turrets/mass raven", while many have made clear that this is not the type of mech people want being viable. Then they claim "mech is boring", based on their own definition of mech, and then comes the obvious following of "therefore mech must not be made viable".
If mechers don't want a boring style, why do they suggest solutions that always lead to turtle?
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EPT
