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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On December 02 2016 01:46 Foxxan wrote: I prefer 1v1 games but to me, there are no good out there. So I play teamgames instead right now, still waiting for a 1v1 game that is great. There hasn't been a good 1v1 game since Capcom vs SNK 2 | ||
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aQuaSC
717 Posts
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-StrifeX-
United States529 Posts
SC2 we can all agree is declining, but I would say that it is dead. I mean look at the Brood War recent resurgence for increase of tournaments, viewers, and even player base. People would have agreed over a year ago it had no chance of ever getting back to where it was before sc2 release. It's all of a sudden kicking a spark recently. Although, It seems to be mostly sparking in the Korean area the most. I don't understand why people think without Koreans having pro teams that the game is dying. Koreans just tend to have the passion in gaming, and If other countries held this similar passion it would be bigger than Korea has currently made eSports. Korea is just currently one of the only countries that holds solid and deep investments into gaming by multiple companies in the scene. They have enough involve to keep the field competitive and enough teams for leagues and events to stay solid. | ||
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
entertainment as a whole has been less involving on a deeper level. i'm referring more to gaming. you experience enough, play enough and expectations shoot up to unreasonable levels. developers have to get that much more creative because a lot of what the player experiences may very well not last or have an impact as intended. the amount of effort or resources devoted to something tiny and important is a very delicate balancing act and usually comes out as an uneven ratio, effort/time:enjoyment/time. that is, if people are interested enough to play your game in the first place. i'd really say that a lot of what we enjoyed in earlier games is fueled by nostalgia and discovery, and the lack of that enjoyment is simply that we've grown up. the denominator in the number of gamers in sheer numbers, has multiplied and so has the number of people and jobs for that industry. fulltime creators actually have to churn out games every few years as it's reasonable to expect to make a good living out of it. i'm sure in some ways that relates to how passion projects from renowned and brilliant creators are a lot more scarce. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On December 02 2016 09:02 nanaoei wrote: a lot of assumptions and bullshit on my part, but-- entertainment as a whole has been less involving on a deeper level. i'm referring more to gaming. you experience enough, play enough and expectations shoot up to unreasonable levels. developers have to get that much more creative because a lot of what the player experiences may very well not last or have an impact as intended. the amount of effort or resources devoted to something tiny and important is a very delicate balancing act and usually comes out as an uneven ratio, effort/time:enjoyment/time. that is, if people are interested enough to play your game in the first place. i'd really say that a lot of what we enjoyed in earlier games is fueled by nostalgia and discovery, and the lack of that enjoyment is simply that we've grown up. the denominator in the number of gamers in sheer numbers, has multiplied and so has the number of people and jobs for that industry. fulltime creators actually have to churn out games every few years as it's reasonable to expect to make a good living out of it. i'm sure in some ways that relates to how passion projects from renowned and brilliant creators are a lot more scarce. Not really that off the mark. A big part companies and projects getting so big is that they still need jobs after the project is done. Yet, they are still expected to make gains each year and sometimes each quarter. A lot of teams get desperate and just start doing whatever to see if its relevant. Phone manufacturing Car manufacturing etc... At some point for best returns you have to outsource the work to a cheaper country to keep up with demands. Not demand, by the way, as in the economic needs of consumers. Literal verbal demands by whiny customers who don't pay for anything but are willing to blast and attack hard working developers for not making everything absolutely perfect and sully the brand's name by their constant "game is ded" mantras. | ||
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Nickemwit
United States253 Posts
On December 01 2016 15:55 luxon wrote: There is nothing that annoys me more than people saying "Blizzard should change GAMEPLAY and do this or that. Imbalanced races, etc etc". I can't deal with that amount of idiocy. Are you serious right now? LoL in 2011 was already bigger than any esport or game in history (including BW at its PEAK and SC2 was at its peak in 2011), and has continued to grow. CS:GO, Dota, etc etc all have too. And you think that's because of forcefields or a-move zerg?? How can you not see what those games have in common? SC has died because it is a 1v1 game with a high learning curve which couldnt court casual gamers in part because of Blizzard's pay-to-play and in part because 1v1 games are just less appealing to play with friends. It is like tennis vs football or basketball - it simply isn't comparable. The top 2-3 tennis players get all the $$ and sponsorships while the rest struggle, but you can pick an MLB or NBA player at random and theyll probably bank 10 million easy. On the flip side, LoL is fun and social. The learning curve is super low and Riot has physically supported its players. The game is still imbalanced as fuck and players qq all the time. The game ITSELF is the prime source of what determines popularity and appeal, not its rules. Tennis won't have baseball viewership if you say "Ok new rule, alternate serves every point". SC2 as long as it is a 1v1 game, will never be able to compete with League or DotA. Blizzard knows this too and released Heroes of the Storm. I genuinely can't believe this game has been a steady decline for 5+ years and people are STILL THINKING ITS IMBALANCE GAMEPLAY from Idra and Destiny blaming gameplay 4 years ago to morons in this forum now. Poor David Kim. With fans like this maybe this is what SC2 deserves. Smash Bros. Melee is a 15 year old game that requires a CRT to play. Going into 2017, some of its top players making over 6 figures, and like all the top play players plus others have sponsors. Sponsors didn't even exist in the scene until TL picked up players a couple years back. This game is extremely hardcore 1v1 with a much higher barrier of entry than SC2. How do you account for it's almost exponential growth from 2013-2016 given what you've said? The biggest tournaments get ~150k concurrent viewers now and this game is played on a fucking gamecube | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On December 02 2016 10:05 ShrieK wrote: Smash Bros. Melee is a 15 year old game that requires a CRT to play. Going into 2017, some of its top players making over 6 figures, and like all the top play players plus others have sponsors. Sponsors didn't even exist in the scene until TL picked up players a couple years back. This game is extremely hardcore 1v1 with a much higher barrier of entry than SC2. How do you account for it's almost exponential growth from 2013-2016 given what you've said? The biggest tournaments get ~150k concurrent viewers now and this game is played on a fucking gamecube StarCraft 2 is more popular than Smash, by a lot. In November SC2 had 4.9 million hours watched on Twitch, while Melee had 1.9 million. It is easier to grow when you are small. Yesterday Melee had 10,000 hours watched, SC2 had 100,000 hours watched, and LoL had 2 million hours watched. So yeah, I can see it competing... https://gamoloco.com/ https://newzoo.com/insights/rankings/top-games-twitch (this includes both smash games) | ||
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
On December 02 2016 10:05 ShrieK wrote: Smash Bros. Melee is a 15 year old game that requires a CRT to play. Going into 2017, some of its top players making over 6 figures, and like all the top play players plus others have sponsors. Sponsors didn't even exist in the scene until TL picked up players a couple years back. This game is extremely hardcore 1v1 with a much higher barrier of entry than SC2. How do you account for it's almost exponential growth from 2013-2016 given what you've said? The biggest tournaments get ~150k concurrent viewers now and this game is played on a fucking gamecube I would argue that SC2 has a much higher barrier of entry than Melee, mostly just by design. Strategy games need so many units, upgrades, tech trees, and abilities to be learned. The basics of fighting games can be figured out fairly quickly after a casual round or two of button mashing. And plus, it's a lot easier to set up Melee for a much more casual party situation with 4 player fights and everyone playing together from the same screen. Keeping players engaged in the game itself at any level is important for trying to bring them into the competitive scene, even as just spectators. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
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Nickemwit
United States253 Posts
On December 02 2016 22:10 Ansibled wrote: You are cherry picking statistics. Melee's peak concurrent viewership is almost double that of StarCraft II. Melee's prize pools are rising hugely every year, whereas SC2's are plummeting. November has been a lull in Melee action, but during the more happening months, there's a big event almost every weekend. Imagine if we were seeing TY vs Byun 2-3 times per month.StarCraft 2 is more popular than Smash, by a lot. In November SC2 had 4.9 million hours watched on Twitch, while Melee had 1.9 million. It is easier to grow when you are small. Yesterday Melee had 10,000 hours watched, SC2 had 100,000 hours watched, and LoL had 2 million hours watched. So yeah, I can see it competing... https://gamoloco.com/ https://newzoo.com/insights/rankings/top-games-twitch (this includes both smash games) I would argue that SC2 has a much higher barrier of entry than Melee, mostly just by design. Strategy games need so many units, upgrades, tech trees, and abilities to be learned. The basics of fighting games can be figured out fairly quickly after a casual round or two of button mashing. Sounds like you've never played that game. It takes years just to learn to control your character, much less engage in the strategy part. "The basics" in Melee are the equivalent of things like Muta stacking in BW, which would take years to figure out on your own. | ||
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Jett.Jack.Alvir
Canada2250 Posts
Smash and SC2 are 2 incredibly different games. There is no need to have an epeen war on who's game is harder, nor is there any reason to discuss popularity of both games. Both have their difficulties and learning curves. Both have an audience. Whose is bigger? I don't care. | ||
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Garmer
1286 Posts
On December 03 2016 00:13 Incognoto wrote: One thing is certain, with the new siege tank buffs, Starcraft viewership should be boosted where is the discussion about this here? long time not seen here tnx | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On December 03 2016 14:49 ShrieK wrote: You are cherry picking statistics. Melee's peak concurrent viewership is almost double that of StarCraft II. Melee's prize pools are rising hugely every year, whereas SC2's are plummeting. November has been a lull in Melee action, but during the more happening months, there's a big event almost every weekend. Imagine if we were seeing TY vs Byun 2-3 times per month. Sounds like you've never played that game. It takes years just to learn to control your character, much less engage in the strategy part. "The basics" in Melee are the equivalent of things like Muta stacking in BW, which would take years to figure out on your own. I mean try looking at the newzoo link, I only gave November as an example because it was the most recent. We can go through the other months if you want. August SC2 4.4m hours, 2.5m tournaments Smash 2.5m hours, 1.6m tournaments July SC2 4.5m hours, 2.4m tournaments Smash 3.1m hours, 1.7m tournaments June SC2 3.7m hours, 2.5m tournaments Smash 2.4m hours, 1.1m tournaments May SC2 4.3m hours, 2.8m tournaments Smash 2.5m hours, 0.6m tournaments April SC2 3.8m hours, 1.8m tournaments Smash 3.2m hours, 0.9m tournaments March SC2 5.2m hours, 3.0m tournaments Smash did not chart February SC2 5.6m hours, 2.7m tournaments Smash 1.7m hours, 0.2m tournaments January SC2 6.6m hours, 2.3m tournaments Smash 2.5m hours, 2.6m tournaments This includes not just melee, but also smash 4. I'd love to know how this is picking statistics but looking at peak viewership during evo and pretending anyone cares outside of it isn't. Again it's easy to rise when you have nothing. I'd also be interested in how SC2 prize pools are plummeting. Smash http://wiki.teamliquid.net/smash/Premier_Tournaments SC2 http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments On December 03 2016 16:46 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: Talk about going on a tangent. Smash and SC2 are 2 incredibly different games. There is no need to have an epeen war on who's game is harder, nor is there any reason to discuss popularity of both games. Both have their difficulties and learning curves. Both have an audience. Whose is bigger? I don't care. I agree there isn't much of a reason, but I think it's important people know where SC2 actually stands instead of giving off misinformation. It is solidly the most watched esport outside of the larger games (LoL/CS/HS/DotA) and people are acting like it isn't. Overwatch will probably overtake it through sheer force of playerbase next year though. | ||
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Phredxor
New Zealand15076 Posts
On December 03 2016 14:49 ShrieK wrote: You are cherry picking statistics. Melee's peak concurrent viewership is almost double that of StarCraft II. Melee's prize pools are rising hugely every year, whereas SC2's are plummeting. November has been a lull in Melee action, but during the more happening months, there's a big event almost every weekend. Imagine if we were seeing TY vs Byun 2-3 times per month. Sounds like you've never played that game. It takes years just to learn to control your character, much less engage in the strategy part. "The basics" in Melee are the equivalent of things like Muta stacking in BW, which would take years to figure out on your own. Why would you call someone out on cherry picking stats when you're doing the same thing? | ||
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KyleB
1 Post
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PharaphobiaSC
Czech Republic457 Posts
On December 04 2016 01:13 KyleB wrote: Those CS caster really pissed me off when they were talking about sc2 on the main stage What did they said? | ||
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PharaphobiaSC
Czech Republic457 Posts
On December 02 2016 08:38 -StrifeX- wrote: I mean no offense, but why would I want to look at views of a person who was known for being really BM to other pro gamers and said things that was super offensive to players? I mean that behavior alone should be to some extent why some people got sick of running into people with pure hate towards other people like this. I'm sorry but I can't respect the comments or video of someone that I felt brought negative attention to sc2 also. However, this is my opinion. I hope he's changed from back when he was known for being BM SC2 we can all agree is declining, but I would say that it is dead. I mean look at the Brood War recent resurgence for increase of tournaments, viewers, and even player base. People would have agreed over a year ago it had no chance of ever getting back to where it was before sc2 release. It's all of a sudden kicking a spark recently. Although, It seems to be mostly sparking in the Korean area the most. I don't understand why people think without Koreans having pro teams that the game is dying. Koreans just tend to have the passion in gaming, and If other countries held this similar passion it would be bigger than Korea has currently made eSports. Korea is just currently one of the only countries that holds solid and deep investments into gaming by multiple companies in the scene. They have enough involve to keep the field competitive and enough teams for leagues and events to stay solid. There is so much wrong in your post... | ||
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KT_Elwood
Germany875 Posts
I was fascinated by single marines being rescued, stalker shots dodged, pixel perfect force fields...Or FlaShs ability to remember when to send a small group of units to deny protoss 3rd Base on marry-go-round. Oh and Grubby`s defense of a hacker that DT-rushed him on TalDarim Altar and was defeatd by godly micro. now the game is so fast, you really have to look at the macro mistakes to declare the better player. Losing single units almost does not matter, unless its the nerve wrecking TvT or TvP EarlyGame. | ||
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BaronVonOwn
299 Posts
On December 04 2016 01:13 KyleB wrote: Those CS caster really pissed me off when they were talking about sc2 on the main stage Well, I'm watching pro CS on American TV right now, not Starcraft. Don't shoot the messenger. | ||
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theonlyshaft
United States581 Posts
My youtube is youtube.com/misusedshaft if you would like to see my videos before you respond. This is not a spam message. Do not click the link if you do not want to. I want to help. | ||
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