On October 22 2016 07:59 Spyridon wrote: Blizzard says sales are not the goal.
thanks for the laugh. check out any ATVI quarterly. then check out the historical stock price for ATVI since Activision merged with Blizzard. ROFLMAO.
I don't deserve the credit. I had very little to do with it. Blizzard were the ones who straight up said it. Here ya go...
Our main goal for StarCraft 2 is to create the best game of its type that it can ever be, and not necessarily selling more copies of the game or increasing the playerbase.
Why don't you send them over a laugh so they can have your feedback?
On October 22 2016 08:36 Charoisaur wrote:
On October 22 2016 08:31 Spyridon wrote:
On October 22 2016 08:15 Charoisaur wrote:
(the "more viewers" you refer to are only korean based btw)
Majority of viewers of StarCraft period are koreans. When is the last time you seen a twitch stream in the top 5 streams that wasn't Korean?
On October 22 2016 08:19 Charoisaur wrote: imo the game is in the best state it's ever been, so yes there's no cause for concern. there's nothing we can do about players leaving the game.
Okay, so you think it's the best state it's ever been, but more pro players are leaving and leagues are getting cancelled than ever.
So apparently, the general consensus does not agree with you. Do you think that it's not reason for concern that the general consensus is having an exodus from a competitive game?
Competitive games don't survive without enough players for matchmaking to be extremely accurate - which requires a LOT of players.
Hows competitive SC2 going to survive with less and less leagues....? But that's no prob for concern?
players are leaving because they prefer MOBAs/FPSs over RTS games. most casters and pros also say that sc2 is in the best state it's ever been so it's more likely that the general consensus does not agree with YOUR opinion.
Pros think it's the best state it's ever been? That's why more of them have quit than ever? That's why more have went back to BW than ever?
More pro players have left SC2 for BW, than did for LoL/Dota/Overwatch or any other game.
Most casters have already left the game...
which pro players left the game because they don't enjoy it anymore? most players either have to quit because of military or in the case of Flash/Effort/Rain and maybe Jaedong switched to bw because they can make more money from it. foreign pros are more motivated than ever and many pros like Nerchio have specifically stated that the game is more enjoyable than ever. casters like Artosis, Tasteless, Incontrol etc say the same. Quote me a single pro player/caster saying that the game isn't fun anymore, I haven't heard a single one.
it's quite true that when it's your job to cast the game, you're less likely to publicly talk about the game not being that much fun actually a french caster made a video about this a few days ago, his name is anoss, he explained why he thinks 12 worker start for example is a reason for decline of SC2 fun for casual players ;; he said apparently MLord confirmed the same thoughts for high level play
Yup.. A by product of rushing lotv out 5 months early.
If you played LotV beta before they pushed up the release date, the 12 worker start wasn't an issue. Becsuse macro mechanics were removed. Macro mechanics accelerate economic scaling. Without them, the economy scaled up way slower. Expanding was around the same time periods of HotS, except until 2-3 bases, you HAD to skirmish with only a handful of units to capture each expansion and hold it to a point where the economy accelerated.
The pacing was quite good. Main issue was the mineral costs needed to be rebalanced for units a bit. But that was totally doable with 6 months of dev time before the original release date.
They even did a poll at the time, reverting to hots mechanics was the least voted for, and 80% voted for complete removal (rather than the automatic proposal or revert). But release date got pushed up, and they revert the mechanics with contradictory reasoning, even after admitting directly that they believed removal was better design.
The pacing was quite fun, and 12 worker start only made early game start faster, but economic acceleration was slower.
But once they reverted, we have both faster start AND scaling. But no change in unit or structure costs???
Now it's just out of control. Basically the start of the game ur expanding , the early skirmishes from beta were replaced with crazy harassment forces, T2 battles happen at the time T1 used to happen, early T1 battles not really existent anymore, tiers of units can be mostly skipped in a rush towards T3.
It don't make any sense. But what else could they do when they suddenly push up release date from late March to mid November and have a shorter testing phase than planned?
We needed the old blizzard at that time. Instead, they screwed SC2 by releasing early, instead of their old motto of "we do not release until it's ready".
Absolutely no true software developers will tell you 2 weeks of testing is enough to release a game after making such drastic changes to the core of the game like they did with the economy. Every system in an RTS is built upon economy. The entire game needed testing for all 3 races. 2 weeks was not enough time. And we see how that ended up...
they tested removing macro mechanics and it was terrible. most pros/personalities spoke against it. So they re-added it and saw that the game was in a great spot so they released the game. why wait longer when the game is already as good as it can possibly get?
So your going to straight up lie now...? lol
Most pros were satisfied with it, only a few spoke out of it (most vocal being TLO), as well as some on this forum spoke for it (QXC made a big post supporting it.
The general consensus was, it's fun, but needs rebalancing of minerals, especially for Terran. Which also led to debates about Terran's macro mechanic being more rewarding and less risk compared to the other classes.
As I mentioned before, polls had 80% support for FULL REMOVAL.
And your whole second sentence? Complete BS lie. Want proof? They set the release date BEFORE they even dropped the patch. The game still had automated reduced macro mechanics at the time they pushed up release date. Weeks later the patch actually came out (around a month before release) and only with 2 weeks left in testing, because they did not do testing until release.
They did not even SEE the spot the game was in before they chose to push the release date up! They did not get to see how the game looked with 12 worker start + hots macro mechanics + unit rebalances AT ALL at that point.
They basically gave themselves ONLY 2 weeks of testing data, and under a month, to perform all the balance changes for release, which was not nearly enough time for players to even ADAPT to the new economy.
I'm a software developer myself, and there's no way you could gather accurate metrics of balance or the economy in only 2 weeks. How long were you experimenting with builds and strategies at release?
Did you forget how the release went...? The game was as good as it gets??? There wasn't a single pro player (korean or foreign) out there that did not bring up serious balance issues. That's when players started quitting. And almost every balance patch since LotV came out was adjusting things that were issues specifically because of that revert.
Did you forget how the release went...? The game was as good as it gets??? There wasn't a single pro player (korean or foreign) out there that did not bring up serious balance issues. That's when players started quitting. And almost every balance patch since LotV came out was adjusting things that were issues specifically because of that revert.
the only balance issue that needed to be adressed after release was adept -1 damage. libs and parasitic bomb also got a slight nerf but that wasn't as important.
On October 22 2016 08:55 JimmyJRaynor wrote: LotV represented less than 2% of ATVI revenue in 2015 and 2016 and they've given up on selling lots of copies of the game which is why another RTS is not on the way.
the entire RTS genre continues to decline. this "all the major rtses" comment.. you can just cherry pick the RTS games you want to make ur comment seem correct.
Blizzard's #1 priority is sales which is why they are not making another RTS. There is no point in spending good money after bad. The SC franchise has brand value and Blizzard is investing in keeping the brand strong.
Blizzard has already said they will work on another RTS after LotV. You have already been debunked on that statement.
Your talking about LotV making little money, that doesn't indicate a problem with RTS, that indicates a problem with LotV.
The entire RTS genre was held up by BW. All other RTS games declined even before SC2 was released.
BW was declining only due to Blizzards involvement, and it has resurged over the last few years.
WarCraft 3 has resurged as well.
SC2 is the only major RTS that has less numbers than it had 1.5 years ago. The other 2 major ones are GROWING.
Blizzard straight up said in this update that their #1 priority is not sales. So your saying Blizzard are liars? Would be about time you admit that. But youd never say that.
growing? LOL. growing everywhere except in terms of revenue and profit. which is the metric studios use to determine if they'll work on a game. revenue and profit.
i stated my rebuttal in my last post: Blizzard has given up on making SC2 popular. even at its peak BW and SC2 represented so little revenue that they've given up on trying to make it a big revenue source. they are maintaining the brand strength of SC so they can make an SC game in another genre.
Blizzard has never said its making another RTS. Sigaty said the "nothing will compete with SC2 for the next 10 years" in 2015 so that by the time 2025 rolls around no one will be left screaming for another RTS.
the release of new RTS games has slowed to a crawl because revenue generated by those games is declining and has been declining for many years.
Blizzard had to sell LotV for $40 as an independent stand alone game. Another sign there is less cash to be made in the genre. WoL was $60, and HotS was $40 and you had to own WoL. Blizzard is an excellent indicator of the decline of the genre. So is Ensemble, EALA, CA and Relic.
in the 90s news studios were popping up every where making new RTS games with bigger and bigger budgets every year. What did we get in 2016 for RTS games? NOT MUCH.
Is TL adding new RTS teams to their pro roster? are we getting a new WC3 or CoH2 or DoW3 team? should we be screaming with anger because TL management correctly identified the direction the RTS genre was going and elected to add many non-RTS teams? TL saw the writing on the wall years ago and reacted correctly.
dayvie doesn't get it! they want to make the easier to play so its more fun to play. this doesn't mean automatically mean a decrease in skill cap, it means a decrease in technical abilities,,,by making the game easier it will make the games longer which will allow pros to show skills rather than being killed by something such as a missed harassment unit...
On October 22 2016 07:59 Spyridon wrote: Blizzard says sales are not the goal.
thanks for the laugh. check out any ATVI quarterly. then check out the historical stock price for ATVI since Activision merged with Blizzard. ROFLMAO.
I don't deserve the credit. I had very little to do with it. Blizzard were the ones who straight up said it. Here ya go...
Our main goal for StarCraft 2 is to create the best game of its type that it can ever be, and not necessarily selling more copies of the game or increasing the playerbase.
Why don't you send them over a laugh so they can have your feedback?
On October 22 2016 08:36 Charoisaur wrote:
On October 22 2016 08:31 Spyridon wrote:
On October 22 2016 08:15 Charoisaur wrote:
(the "more viewers" you refer to are only korean based btw)
Majority of viewers of StarCraft period are koreans. When is the last time you seen a twitch stream in the top 5 streams that wasn't Korean?
On October 22 2016 08:19 Charoisaur wrote: imo the game is in the best state it's ever been, so yes there's no cause for concern. there's nothing we can do about players leaving the game.
Okay, so you think it's the best state it's ever been, but more pro players are leaving and leagues are getting cancelled than ever.
So apparently, the general consensus does not agree with you. Do you think that it's not reason for concern that the general consensus is having an exodus from a competitive game?
Competitive games don't survive without enough players for matchmaking to be extremely accurate - which requires a LOT of players.
Hows competitive SC2 going to survive with less and less leagues....? But that's no prob for concern?
players are leaving because they prefer MOBAs/FPSs over RTS games. most casters and pros also say that sc2 is in the best state it's ever been so it's more likely that the general consensus does not agree with YOUR opinion.
Pros think it's the best state it's ever been? That's why more of them have quit than ever? That's why more have went back to BW than ever?
More pro players have left SC2 for BW, than did for LoL/Dota/Overwatch or any other game.
Most casters have already left the game...
which pro players left the game because they don't enjoy it anymore? most players either have to quit because of military or in the case of Flash/Effort/Rain and maybe Jaedong switched to bw because they can make more money from it. foreign pros are more motivated than ever and many pros like Nerchio have specifically stated that the game is more enjoyable than ever. casters like Artosis, Tasteless, Incontrol etc say the same. Quote me a single pro player/caster saying that the game isn't fun anymore, I haven't heard a single one.
it's quite true that when it's your job to cast the game, you're less likely to publicly talk about the game not being that much fun actually a french caster made a video about this a few days ago, his name is anoss, he explained why he thinks 12 worker start for example is a reason for decline of SC2 fun for casual players ;; he said apparently MLord confirmed the same thoughts for high level play
Yup.. A by product of rushing lotv out 5 months early.
If you played LotV beta before they pushed up the release date, the 12 worker start wasn't an issue. Becsuse macro mechanics were removed. Macro mechanics accelerate economic scaling. Without them, the economy scaled up way slower. Expanding was around the same time periods of HotS, except until 2-3 bases, you HAD to skirmish with only a handful of units to capture each expansion and hold it to a point where the economy accelerated.
The pacing was quite good. Main issue was the mineral costs needed to be rebalanced for units a bit. But that was totally doable with 6 months of dev time before the original release date.
They even did a poll at the time, reverting to hots mechanics was the least voted for, and 80% voted for complete removal (rather than the automatic proposal or revert). But release date got pushed up, and they revert the mechanics with contradictory reasoning, even after admitting directly that they believed removal was better design.
The pacing was quite fun, and 12 worker start only made early game start faster, but economic acceleration was slower.
But once they reverted, we have both faster start AND scaling. But no change in unit or structure costs???
Now it's just out of control. Basically the start of the game ur expanding , the early skirmishes from beta were replaced with crazy harassment forces, T2 battles happen at the time T1 used to happen, early T1 battles not really existent anymore, tiers of units can be mostly skipped in a rush towards T3.
It don't make any sense. But what else could they do when they suddenly push up release date from late March to mid November and have a shorter testing phase than planned?
We needed the old blizzard at that time. Instead, they screwed SC2 by releasing early, instead of their old motto of "we do not release until it's ready".
Absolutely no true software developers will tell you 2 weeks of testing is enough to release a game after making such drastic changes to the core of the game like they did with the economy. Every system in an RTS is built upon economy. The entire game needed testing for all 3 races. 2 weeks was not enough time. And we see how that ended up...
they tested removing macro mechanics and it was terrible. most pros/personalities spoke against it. So they re-added it and saw that the game was in a great spot so they released the game. why wait longer when the game is already as good as it can possibly get?
So your going to straight up lie now...? lol
Most pros were satisfied with it, only a few spoke out of it (most vocal being TLO), as well as some on this forum spoke for it (QXC made a big post supporting it.
The general consensus was, it's fun, but needs rebalancing of minerals, especially for Terran. Which also led to debates about Terran's macro mechanic being more rewarding and less risk compared to the other classes.
As I mentioned before, polls had 80% support for FULL REMOVAL.
And your whole second sentence? Complete BS lie. Want proof? They set the release date BEFORE they even dropped the patch. The game still had automated reduced macro mechanics at the time they pushed up release date. Weeks later the patch actually came out (around a month before release) and only with 2 weeks left in testing, because they did not do testing until release.
They did not even SEE the spot the game was in before they chose to push the release date up! They did not get to see how the game looked with 12 worker start + hots macro mechanics + unit rebalances AT ALL at that point.
They basically gave themselves ONLY 2 weeks of testing data, and under a month, to perform all the balance changes for release, which was not nearly enough time for players to even ADAPT to the new economy.
I'm a software developer myself, and there's no way you could gather accurate metrics of balance or the economy in only 2 weeks. How long were you experimenting with builds and strategies at release?
Did you forget how the release went...? The game was as good as it gets??? There wasn't a single pro player (korean or foreign) out there that did not bring up serious balance issues. That's when players started quitting. And almost every balance patch since LotV came out was adjusting things that were issues specifically because of that revert.
I vividly remember vast majority didn't like auto mechanics, both pros and casuals.
On October 22 2016 07:59 Spyridon wrote: Blizzard says sales are not the goal.
thanks for the laugh. check out any ATVI quarterly. then check out the historical stock price for ATVI since Activision merged with Blizzard. ROFLMAO.
I don't deserve the credit. I had very little to do with it. Blizzard were the ones who straight up said it. Here ya go...
Our main goal for StarCraft 2 is to create the best game of its type that it can ever be, and not necessarily selling more copies of the game or increasing the playerbase.
Why don't you send them over a laugh so they can have your feedback?
On October 22 2016 08:36 Charoisaur wrote:
On October 22 2016 08:31 Spyridon wrote:
On October 22 2016 08:15 Charoisaur wrote:
(the "more viewers" you refer to are only korean based btw)
Majority of viewers of StarCraft period are koreans. When is the last time you seen a twitch stream in the top 5 streams that wasn't Korean?
On October 22 2016 08:19 Charoisaur wrote: imo the game is in the best state it's ever been, so yes there's no cause for concern. there's nothing we can do about players leaving the game.
Okay, so you think it's the best state it's ever been, but more pro players are leaving and leagues are getting cancelled than ever.
So apparently, the general consensus does not agree with you. Do you think that it's not reason for concern that the general consensus is having an exodus from a competitive game?
Competitive games don't survive without enough players for matchmaking to be extremely accurate - which requires a LOT of players.
Hows competitive SC2 going to survive with less and less leagues....? But that's no prob for concern?
players are leaving because they prefer MOBAs/FPSs over RTS games. most casters and pros also say that sc2 is in the best state it's ever been so it's more likely that the general consensus does not agree with YOUR opinion.
Pros think it's the best state it's ever been? That's why more of them have quit than ever? That's why more have went back to BW than ever?
More pro players have left SC2 for BW, than did for LoL/Dota/Overwatch or any other game.
Most casters have already left the game...
which pro players left the game because they don't enjoy it anymore? most players either have to quit because of military or in the case of Flash/Effort/Rain and maybe Jaedong switched to bw because they can make more money from it. foreign pros are more motivated than ever and many pros like Nerchio have specifically stated that the game is more enjoyable than ever. casters like Artosis, Tasteless, Incontrol etc say the same. Quote me a single pro player/caster saying that the game isn't fun anymore, I haven't heard a single one.
it's quite true that when it's your job to cast the game, you're less likely to publicly talk about the game not being that much fun actually a french caster made a video about this a few days ago, his name is anoss, he explained why he thinks 12 worker start for example is a reason for decline of SC2 fun for casual players ;; he said apparently MLord confirmed the same thoughts for high level play
Yup.. A by product of rushing lotv out 5 months early.
If you played LotV beta before they pushed up the release date, the 12 worker start wasn't an issue. Becsuse macro mechanics were removed. Macro mechanics accelerate economic scaling. Without them, the economy scaled up way slower. Expanding was around the same time periods of HotS, except until 2-3 bases, you HAD to skirmish with only a handful of units to capture each expansion and hold it to a point where the economy accelerated.
The pacing was quite good. Main issue was the mineral costs needed to be rebalanced for units a bit. But that was totally doable with 6 months of dev time before the original release date.
They even did a poll at the time, reverting to hots mechanics was the least voted for, and 80% voted for complete removal (rather than the automatic proposal or revert). But release date got pushed up, and they revert the mechanics with contradictory reasoning, even after admitting directly that they believed removal was better design.
The pacing was quite fun, and 12 worker start only made early game start faster, but economic acceleration was slower.
But once they reverted, we have both faster start AND scaling. But no change in unit or structure costs???
Now it's just out of control. Basically the start of the game ur expanding , the early skirmishes from beta were replaced with crazy harassment forces, T2 battles happen at the time T1 used to happen, early T1 battles not really existent anymore, tiers of units can be mostly skipped in a rush towards T3.
It don't make any sense. But what else could they do when they suddenly push up release date from late March to mid November and have a shorter testing phase than planned?
We needed the old blizzard at that time. Instead, they screwed SC2 by releasing early, instead of their old motto of "we do not release until it's ready".
Absolutely no true software developers will tell you 2 weeks of testing is enough to release a game after making such drastic changes to the core of the game like they did with the economy. Every system in an RTS is built upon economy. The entire game needed testing for all 3 races. 2 weeks was not enough time. And we see how that ended up...
they tested removing macro mechanics and it was terrible. most pros/personalities spoke against it. So they re-added it and saw that the game was in a great spot so they released the game. why wait longer when the game is already as good as it can possibly get?
So your going to straight up lie now...? lol
Most pros were satisfied with it, only a few spoke out of it (most vocal being TLO), as well as some on this forum spoke for it (QXC made a big post supporting it.
The general consensus was, it's fun, but needs rebalancing of minerals, especially for Terran. Which also led to debates about Terran's macro mechanic being more rewarding and less risk compared to the other classes.
As I mentioned before, polls had 80% support for FULL REMOVAL.
And your whole second sentence? Complete BS lie. Want proof? They set the release date BEFORE they even dropped the patch. The game still had automated reduced macro mechanics at the time they pushed up release date. Weeks later the patch actually came out (around a month before release) and only with 2 weeks left in testing, because they did not do testing until release.
They did not even SEE the spot the game was in before they chose to push the release date up! They did not get to see how the game looked with 12 worker start + hots macro mechanics + unit rebalances AT ALL at that point.
They basically gave themselves ONLY 2 weeks of testing data, and under a month, to perform all the balance changes for release, which was not nearly enough time for players to even ADAPT to the new economy.
I'm a software developer myself, and there's no way you could gather accurate metrics of balance or the economy in only 2 weeks. How long were you experimenting with builds and strategies at release?
Did you forget how the release went...? The game was as good as it gets??? There wasn't a single pro player (korean or foreign) out there that did not bring up serious balance issues. That's when players started quitting. And almost every balance patch since LotV came out was adjusting things that were issues specifically because of that revert.
I vividly remember vast majority didn't like auto mechanics, both pros and casuals.
You're right people didn't really like auto-mechanics. But they liked no macro mechanics, or a big nerf to them.
Our main goal for StarCraft 2 is to create the best game of its type that it can ever be, and not necessarily selling more copies of the game or increasing the playerbase. Those are also great secondary goals, but we don’t feel that we should be in a place where we start to hurt the main, most important goal of StarCraft 2.
That's just loser talk
I like the fast paced version of Legacy. Heart of the Swarm is a bore compared to Legacy. Hell, I would want it faster. Rather than stressing mechanics, a game that stresses quick critical thinking skills would be far more respectable and unpredictable. And more fun. And funner to watch.
Like every first 10 minutes of Heart of the Swarm matches was the same mind numbing, repetitive de ja vu experience. Kind of like driving on the free way. You get dumber just by watching.
Make it faster.
Fan base and viewership are good indicators of the quality of the game. What do they have to lose? They already lost Proleague and five of the best teams in the world. An organization that was one of the most passionate supporters of Legacy of the Void.
"best game of its type" ye you are not even close and what a lame attitude Dont they REALLY play games themself? They seriously considder other rts games good, seriously?
Well, DK is pretty much saying "we don't give a damn" about an issue that's been echo's heavily in the community for years. How else do you expect them to react.
Its especially worse as it's coming right after closing down of ProLeague, a system that was only sustainable if sc2 was a mainstream game.
Our main goal for StarCraft 2 is to create the best game of its type that it can ever be, and not necessarily selling more copies of the game or increasing the playerbase. Those are also great secondary goals, but we don’t feel that we should be in a place where we start to hurt the main, most important goal of StarCraft 2.
I mean, it's pretty obvious they're NOT trying to grow the player base.
I will just quote this post on that thread from Voltz as it reflects EXACTLY how I feel about the game currently:
"It is StarCraft, for fucks sake, casual players just want to Craft a fucking army. Not instantly die because they didn't scout Oracle tech, or dt tech, or a silly 1 base cheese. In BroodWar, your standard build for the most part was able to account for pretty much anything your opponent could throw at you. Too many things can just outright kill you in Star 2. Not only that, the battles are mostly decided before they have even begun and there is nothing you can do about it. As pointed out by OP, battles end in literally 2 seconds. Where is the fun in that?"
Fixing the viper abduct with impunity this has to be channeled or charged over say 5 seconds giving you the opportunity to counter and the same goes for blinding cloud and parasitic bomb
Fixing 200/200 carrier vs terran, bc is the only option and you can kite them with tempest
Fixing the reaper grenade which makes tvt volatile and frustrating for everyone but every single friend who is in diamond or beneath also say that this gives them anxiety and is very frustrating to play against.
I will just quote this post on that thread from Voltz as it reflects EXACTLY how I feel about the game currently:
"It is StarCraft, for fucks sake, casual players just want to Craft a fucking army. Not instantly die because they didn't scout Oracle tech, or dt tech, or a silly 1 base cheese. In BroodWar, your standard build for the most part was able to account for pretty much anything your opponent could throw at you. Too many things can just outright kill you in Star 2. Not only that, the battles are mostly decided before they have even begun and there is nothing you can do about it. As pointed out by OP, battles end in literally 2 seconds. Where is the fun in that?"
I agree with you and this suggestions were said many times from the community, but apparently dev team is proud to think differently... In the end we lost both
On October 23 2016 03:00 SHODAN wrote: the new cyclone ground weapon has zero micro potential... bring back lock-on vs ground
Yeah it's just boring and Amove-y. Also its low speed makes it terrible at taking map control. New cyclone has no purpose. It's terrible at anti air, terrible at map control, terrible in big fights, it's only decent as a skirmisher but way too expansive to build for this sole use.
Old cyclone is better. It just needs a better distribution : 3 supply, 150/100 cost, 150 hps, but lower lock on DPS
On October 22 2016 04:00 Musicus wrote: Our main goal for StarCraft 2 is to create the best game of its type that it can ever be, and not necessarily selling more copies of the game or increasing the playerbase.
At the moment Blizzard's goal should be to keep the playerbase larger than zero. Without a strong Pro scene, I don't see this happening and no change to the balance will make any difference if no one's left playing the game.
EPT
actually a french caster made a video about this a few days ago, his name is anoss, he explained why he thinks 12 worker start for example is a reason for decline of SC2 fun for casual players ;; he said apparently MLord confirmed the same thoughts for high level play
TL saw the writing on the wall years ago and reacted correctly.
