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how to fix the cyclone:
> revert the ground weapon change
> revert the anti-air weapon change
> revert the movement speed nerf
> revert the auto-cast removal
> revert the health buff
> keep the supply change
> keep the reactor production change
> reduce the cost to 125/75 and proportionally reduce lock-on damage to match the cost (-20% damage, 320 damage over 14 seconds)
> bring back techlab upgrades for the cyclone:
mag-field accelerator
charon boosters: increases lock-on activation range for the ground-to-air weapon by 3 (activation range, not missile range)
nobody wants to use thors
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What the hell are we supposed to do against Bio now? Stupid whinning always get Zergs nerfed. We just can't keep up with bio on the midgame, besides Bio being super strong, there's just no larvae to keep up and the economy doesn't favor zerg in this MU at least. Freaking hilarious we get yet another Nerf on the new patch when Zerg was the only race that seems nerfed. Stop giving us "contract" buffs that don't do anything or won't get used whatsoever as a justification to bring even more nerfs. SAD
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nobody wants to use thors.
Then, you start to use those, because DK doesn't want Cyclone being the main AA of Factory
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On October 23 2016 07:35 blackxored wrote:
What the hell are we supposed to do against Bio now? Stupid whinning always get Zergs nerfed. We just can't keep up with bio on the midgame, besides Bio being super strong, there's just no larvae to keep up and the economy doesn't favor zerg in this MU at least. Freaking hilarious we get yet another Nerf on the new patch when Zerg was the only race that seems nerfed. Stop giving us "contract" buffs that don't do anything or won't get used whatsoever as a justification to bring even more nerfs. SAD
If they nerf the ultra it opens up the opportunity for them to see the midgame isn't right and they have to do something; which could overall result in the match-up returning to its former glory. If they keep the ultra, we'll be stuck with "turtle until ultras" until the end times.
On October 23 2016 07:27 SHODAN wrote:
nobody wants to use thors
There's that one Terran playing at Blizzcon this year who really likes making thors.
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On October 23 2016 07:55 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2016 07:35 blackxored wrote:
What the hell are we supposed to do against Bio now? Stupid whinning always get Zergs nerfed. We just can't keep up with bio on the midgame, besides Bio being super strong, there's just no larvae to keep up and the economy doesn't favor zerg in this MU at least. Freaking hilarious we get yet another Nerf on the new patch when Zerg was the only race that seems nerfed. Stop giving us "contract" buffs that don't do anything or won't get used whatsoever as a justification to bring even more nerfs. SAD If they nerf the ultra it opens up the opportunity for them to see the midgame isn't right and they have to do something; which could overall result in the match-up returning to its former glory. If they keep the ultra, we'll be stuck with "turtle until ultras" until the end times. You mean in 6-12 months from now on, looking at how quickly Blizzard patches LotV.
Now, I don't think many people would criticize Ultra armor nerf in itself. However, something else has to be buffed or something TvZ specific has to be nerfed to make it fair.
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On October 23 2016 07:59 Nazara wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2016 07:55 Elentos wrote:On October 23 2016 07:35 blackxored wrote:
What the hell are we supposed to do against Bio now? Stupid whinning always get Zergs nerfed. We just can't keep up with bio on the midgame, besides Bio being super strong, there's just no larvae to keep up and the economy doesn't favor zerg in this MU at least. Freaking hilarious we get yet another Nerf on the new patch when Zerg was the only race that seems nerfed. Stop giving us "contract" buffs that don't do anything or won't get used whatsoever as a justification to bring even more nerfs. SAD If they nerf the ultra it opens up the opportunity for them to see the midgame isn't right and they have to do something; which could overall result in the match-up returning to its former glory. If they keep the ultra, we'll be stuck with "turtle until ultras" until the end times. You mean in 6-12 months from now on, looking at how quickly Blizzard patches LotV. Now, I don't think many people would criticize Ultra armor nerf in itself. However, something else has to be buffed or something TvZ specific has to be nerfed to make it fair.
At first I'd like to see them at least try changing (removing?) liberator AA so mutas aren't a joke anymore. See how that impacts the game.
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Why every week that i come here, i cant find any help to protoss? i mean, protoss always appears here when some nerfs come down. The only weapon protoss has right now, is the adept, and if blizzard is gonna nerf it, what buffs to compensate? i mean stalkers are bullshit in this expansion, collossus none existent.. i know why is the less played race but.. needs some balance, any help at all, u even take away time warp. Im just asking if there's gonna be or not, because i saw lots of protoss going to other games, and if this continues this way, im out 4 sure.
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On October 23 2016 07:27 SHODAN wrote:
nobody wants to use thors
untrue. i'm cool with using Thors. if stimmed marines are the mobile method of dealing with air and Thors are the immobile method of dealing with air i'm cool with that. its good that DK made it 100% clear what his thinking is behind the design of the Cyclone, Thor, and Marines along with their respective anti-air roles.
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On October 23 2016 07:55 Elentos wrote:There's that one Terran playing at Blizzcon this year who really likes making thors.
INnoVation isn't at blizzcon or are you talking about someone else? not sure TY and Byun are known for making thors..
On October 23 2016 08:06 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2016 07:59 Nazara wrote:On October 23 2016 07:55 Elentos wrote:On October 23 2016 07:35 blackxored wrote:
What the hell are we supposed to do against Bio now? Stupid whinning always get Zergs nerfed. We just can't keep up with bio on the midgame, besides Bio being super strong, there's just no larvae to keep up and the economy doesn't favor zerg in this MU at least. Freaking hilarious we get yet another Nerf on the new patch when Zerg was the only race that seems nerfed. Stop giving us "contract" buffs that don't do anything or won't get used whatsoever as a justification to bring even more nerfs. SAD If they nerf the ultra it opens up the opportunity for them to see the midgame isn't right and they have to do something; which could overall result in the match-up returning to its former glory. If they keep the ultra, we'll be stuck with "turtle until ultras" until the end times. You mean in 6-12 months from now on, looking at how quickly Blizzard patches LotV. Now, I don't think many people would criticize Ultra armor nerf in itself. However, something else has to be buffed or something TvZ specific has to be nerfed to make it fair. At first I'd like to see them at least try changing (removing?) liberator AA so mutas aren't a joke anymore. See how that impacts the game.
liberator bonus damage vs light is already being removed. Also banelings got a +10 health buff which might even be to much. Also Infestors...
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I believe tvz is still slightly terran favoured atm, i think its because of the current mappool.
Terran will have new tanks which i didn't test it to know if its better vs zerg than tankivacs
Zerg will have ultralisk nerf and hp buffed banelings(don't know if they kept it buffed though?) and buffed hydras.
Even though i think the impact of ultralisk nerf will be bigger overall and tvz will be less balanced, i am really happy that they went with this way, it can be balanced later if any imbalance occurs anyway.
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some changes i would like to see
remove Ignite Afterburners
remove banshee speed
remove muta regen and a bit of movement speed ---> with the elentos change (remoce AA from liberator)
remowrk/remove MSC and P.O
i agree the games is too fast and there are way too many harras option.
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On October 23 2016 07:55 Elentos wrote:There's that one Terran playing at Blizzcon this year who really likes making thors.
TY builds thors because he wants to win. that's what how he makes money. it doesn't make them any less boring to play or observe. lock-on is an incredibly fun mechanic and unique to the cyclone. the old (fast) cyclone is incredibly fun to micro. they only needed to tweak the production/cost/damage, but as usual DK goes full retard.
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give workers 100k HP, harras is nerfed
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On October 23 2016 15:51 TedBurtle wrote:
give workers 100k HP, harras is nerfed
I mean don't go overboard but nerfing harass is the first step towards making the game better. The second is slowing down the pace of the game.
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I actually agree with the ultra nerf and quite like the overall idea behind it.
What I would love is taking some steps to reduce mobility or harass damage.
TvZ is nothing but drop defense until ultra.
That's bad for viewer and player because they are supposed to be fragile harass unit that showcase multitasking and micro.
Slow down everything and give time for more micro for viewing and playing
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The likelihood of this game at this point being improved (not that it isn't fun now) by way of unit/balance improvement
is little. Even if spell vs. spell, or range vs. spell, or speed vs. speed were ingeniously reconstructed such as to create a fast chess-like match of counteractions, proactive planning, and quick-thinking in RTS form with these relatively medium to small maps it might not make a difference in gameplay. These maps are fun but I think that they should branch out more into more complex and diverse types. This would be exciting and challenge players' coordination, and force improvement.
At this point we've discussed almost everything there is to discuss except maps.
Maps are the size of coordination limits (reachable areas with the mouse hand); they leave the necessity of constant scouting out; they leave side battle as few and far between; players don't have to use Camera Hotkeys very often; and they don't have and can't preposition smaller units in sabotaging fashion (because the opponents' army will just squash them).
More intricate maps (along with Unit size-to-movement change) would incur more limitations. For Example: areas where Massive Units can't go; no-fly zones; obstructed areas where deathballs are disrupted; water, tunnels, darker areas, etc...
So what if Blizzard ruled out high-ground way back in development?? If it would be really fun then maybe it's worth looking into again.
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On October 22 2016 04:00 Musicus wrote:
With Ultralisk armor, we can try the popular suggestion of increasing the base armor by 1 point and reducing the armor the upgrade provides by 2 points for a slight buff to the base unit + a nerf to the overall unit after upgrades.
i really like this change to the Ultralisk.
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On October 24 2016 02:25 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2016 04:00 Musicus wrote:
With Ultralisk armor, we can try the popular suggestion of increasing the base armor by 1 point and reducing the armor the upgrade provides by 2 points for a slight buff to the base unit + a nerf to the overall unit after upgrades.
i really like this change to the Ultralisk.
I made pretty much exactly this proposition for BW a little while ago^^ ofc people were already talking about reducing ultra armor in sc2 since last year when lotv was in beta with strong argumentation, and I'm sure even before, same thing with mech etc
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I don't mind thor being the dedicated factory AA for big engages because it does a very good job at it in frontal situations.
However, in every matchup the thor poses a big issue :
- in TvZ they get picked off by vipers very easily. Or more accurately, RNGesus will decide wether your thors will get picked up by vipers, or will focus them as soon as they enter their range and somewhat trade with them. It's actually kind of the same issue with the BC. Abduct is so insanely powerfull at destroying very expansive units for 75 energy that you don't really wanna build them, and if you do, you're forced into camping behind a wall of turrets, late HOTS-style. Making the viper unable to abduct massive units would be much more fair overall and less of the ultimate swiss knife against everything that's bigger than a marauder.
- in TvP, mech will NEVER happen as long as phenixes opener counters it so hilariously hard. Phenixes counter tank openers, cyclone openers, banshee openers, mine openers, and raven openers. The only thing it doesn't counter are marines. Against bio, it's not really a problem since protoss has to transition out of stargate tech if he wants to survive. But against mech, you can go straight into tempest. And the sole thor you'll be able to build won't allow you to push out to deny such a greedy transition, it'll simply shoot into a lone phenix and be useless the whole fight. You're forced into camping, you're forced into turreting up, or you're forced into building an amount of marines that'll be useless in mid game. Also, phenixes are quite good against vikings, so building a viking count in early mid game to push out is useless.
The cyclone HAS to be usefull against the phenix. Or have the thor hard counter phenix straight into tempests somehow.
- in TvT, the thor gets destroyed by both the tank and the liberator. Problem is, if air domination is decided by viking count only in early/mid game, that means that you can go straight into mass air. Which leads to boring games where opponents start massing ravens, vikings and liberators with a few tanks to secure ground as soon as their third is done.
The cyclone should be able to snipe air units like the old one does or this will be the most boring TvT meta we'll end up with.
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On October 23 2016 08:43 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2016 07:55 Elentos wrote:On October 23 2016 07:27 SHODAN wrote:
nobody wants to use thors There's that one Terran playing at Blizzcon this year who really likes making thors. INnoVation isn't at blizzcon or are you talking about someone else? not sure TY and Byun are known for making thors..
TY has been playing mech vs Zerg recently with huge amounts of thors.
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EPT
