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On October 26 2016 10:26 AnossSc2 wrote:
Hey guys,
I made a video to try to understand why Starcraft 2 does not work anymore, then this game is excellent.
I added English subtitles to gather the opinion of everyone, the French community has appreciated the video, I wonder if this is the case for everyone, because if we are all agreed , maybe we can change things and make Starcraft 2 while his interest.
nice vid Anoss, lots of interesting points and good analysis overall, though the diagnosis seems quite grim : sc2 just missed a step and it will be extremely hard to recover from it, if even possible. I agree the focus should have shifted away from balance a long time ago, but constant whining in the community didn't help.
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On October 26 2016 10:26 AnossSc2 wrote:
Hey guys,
I made a video to try to understand why Starcraft 2 does not work anymore, then this game is excellent.
I added English subtitles to gather the opinion of everyone, the French community has appreciated the video, I wonder if this is the case for everyone, because if we are all agreed , maybe we can change things and make Starcraft 2 while his interest.
Nice vid, really have to agree on your stance regarding the economy change at the start of the game, 12 harvester change really limited early game options and also the comfort zone players had considering a strategy (also mind games with super early worker scouts etc.), sadly they chose to "improve" the downtime during the first minutes into the game to comfort viewers - which in the end doesn't seem to have worked out as well as they may have hoped.
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They need to go back to start of WoL and fix it from there.
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On October 28 2016 22:10 AssyrianKing wrote:
They need to go back to start of WoL and fix it from there.
yeah
changes I'd make to WoL : remove zealot charge (give speed upgrade and no dancing attack moves?  ), remove marauder concussive shells, remove baneling or baneling hits single target, remove spawn larva, economy system with decreasing growth as you increase probe count on a base (up to 3 per mineral and consequently less than *2 minerals for 2 workers on a mineral that is a clearly better economy system for starcraft allowing more choices nuances and differenciations between races), maybe no gold bases? (that never worked great did it?), less tension for using scan (less money from mules probably), make creep give regen instead of speed (so as not to make relationships between Z units and others radically different on and off creep), creep tumors much harder to kill but spread slower?, make colo a 1 target unit ala void ray? or just less damage? remove?, less/no forcefields rework sentry or remove, move warpgate tech mid/late game, broodlord less damage or no broodlings (primary role obstruction?), strong tanks, marines&M cant move and shoot, no clumping pathing, bit increased collision, smaller maps? (more map presence both for bases and army movement and positioning), more defender advantage (high ground advantage and units can't move and shoot as much), generally less emphasis on hard counters, roach and hydra 1 supply and cheaper and weaker, less damage for units accross the board, battles last much longer, less spells, harass neither mandatory or game ending in most cases (killing workers more like 1 at a time and slower, even a DT might kill workers only in 2 hits, give more life to workers, now we may be talking improvement on BW instead of opposite)..... and many others, probably remove and add units, define new styles, Z makes more hatches larva more precious gains advantage from mining off more bases with less workers no imba "T3" has advantage of numbers (flexible) economy and mobility, T doesn't revolve only around medivac drops has flexibility in tech without imba bio positional with some vulnerability in movement, stronger base P units stable and solid can't burst as much but if not outnumbered very cost efficient with warp advantage..
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On October 28 2016 20:40 Creager wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2016 10:26 AnossSc2 wrote:
Hey guys,
I made a video to try to understand why Starcraft 2 does not work anymore, then this game is excellent.
I added English subtitles to gather the opinion of everyone, the French community has appreciated the video, I wonder if this is the case for everyone, because if we are all agreed , maybe we can change things and make Starcraft 2 while his interest. Nice vid, really have to agree on your stance regarding the economy change at the start of the game, 12 harvester change really limited early game options and also the comfort zone players had considering a strategy (also mind games with super early worker scouts etc.), sadly they chose to "improve" the downtime during the first minutes into the game to comfort viewers - which in the end doesn't seem to have worked out as well as they may have hoped.
yea cant agree more, always thought it was a bad idea to worry about making the game a great "esport": rather than a great game it self, and let the esports side work it self out. because when you worry about "esport" you need to worry about the viewers to keep eyes on the game which is why they switched to 12 workers to kill the down time which killed so much of the strategy from the game like you said. which kill the player base or atleast helped killl it in which lead to less viewers.
the reason other games have more viewers is because they have a great games and good design and dont worry about the esport/viewership. because when you have a great game people will watch. bw wasnt meant to be a esport cs wasnt meant to be an esport quake, wc3 and other good games werent ment to be esports they were great games that people loved to play and compete in. and when you have a good game with high level game play people will watch and enjoy it and then comes to esports. This IMO is the reason for sc2 "death" not just the 12 workers but blizzard worrying about viewers and how flashy the game is rather than making a great game. sorry went on a rant but i have felt this way forever now and figured it say it since Im sure this is sc2 last leg. hope im wrong but w.e.
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On October 28 2016 23:19 IMOrion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2016 20:40 Creager wrote:On October 26 2016 10:26 AnossSc2 wrote:
Hey guys,
I made a video to try to understand why Starcraft 2 does not work anymore, then this game is excellent.
I added English subtitles to gather the opinion of everyone, the French community has appreciated the video, I wonder if this is the case for everyone, because if we are all agreed , maybe we can change things and make Starcraft 2 while his interest. Nice vid, really have to agree on your stance regarding the economy change at the start of the game, 12 harvester change really limited early game options and also the comfort zone players had considering a strategy (also mind games with super early worker scouts etc.), sadly they chose to "improve" the downtime during the first minutes into the game to comfort viewers - which in the end doesn't seem to have worked out as well as they may have hoped. yea cant agree more, always thought it was a bad idea to worry about making the game a great "esport": rather than a great game it self, and let the esports side work it self out. because when you worry about "esport" you need to worry about the viewers to keep eyes on the game which is why they switched to 12 workers to kill the down time which killed so much of the strategy from the game like you said. which kill the player base or atleast helped killl it in which lead to less viewers. the reason other games have more viewers is because they have a great games and good design and dont worry about the esport/viewership. because when you have a great game people will watch. bw wasnt meant to be a esport cs wasnt meant to be an esport quake, wc3 and other good games werent ment to be esports they were great games that people loved to play and compete in. and when you have a good game with high level game play people will watch and enjoy it and then comes to esports. This IMO is the reason for sc2 "death" not just the 12 workers but blizzard worrying about viewers and how flashy the game is rather than making a great game. sorry went on a rant but i have felt this way forever now and figured it say it since Im sure this is sc2 last leg. hope im wrong but w.e.
one last thing I cant wait for like 10 years for all the angry nerds who were dissapointed with sc2 to create there vision of an rts that they feel sc2 couldve be or what it shouldve been. and not just the sc2 aracde things like starbow. it will happen im sure rts isnt dead its just waiting for its time moba is king rts will be back.
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On October 28 2016 23:23 IMOrion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2016 23:19 IMOrion wrote:On October 28 2016 20:40 Creager wrote:On October 26 2016 10:26 AnossSc2 wrote:
Hey guys,
I made a video to try to understand why Starcraft 2 does not work anymore, then this game is excellent.
I added English subtitles to gather the opinion of everyone, the French community has appreciated the video, I wonder if this is the case for everyone, because if we are all agreed , maybe we can change things and make Starcraft 2 while his interest. Nice vid, really have to agree on your stance regarding the economy change at the start of the game, 12 harvester change really limited early game options and also the comfort zone players had considering a strategy (also mind games with super early worker scouts etc.), sadly they chose to "improve" the downtime during the first minutes into the game to comfort viewers - which in the end doesn't seem to have worked out as well as they may have hoped. yea cant agree more, always thought it was a bad idea to worry about making the game a great "esport": rather than a great game it self, and let the esports side work it self out. because when you worry about "esport" you need to worry about the viewers to keep eyes on the game which is why they switched to 12 workers to kill the down time which killed so much of the strategy from the game like you said. which kill the player base or atleast helped killl it in which lead to less viewers. the reason other games have more viewers is because they have a great games and good design and dont worry about the esport/viewership. because when you have a great game people will watch. bw wasnt meant to be a esport cs wasnt meant to be an esport quake, wc3 and other good games werent ment to be esports they were great games that people loved to play and compete in. and when you have a good game with high level game play people will watch and enjoy it and then comes to esports. This IMO is the reason for sc2 "death" not just the 12 workers but blizzard worrying about viewers and how flashy the game is rather than making a great game. sorry went on a rant but i have felt this way forever now and figured it say it since Im sure this is sc2 last leg. hope im wrong but w.e. one last thing I cant wait for like 10 years for all the angry nerds who were dissapointed with sc2 to create there vision of an rts that they feel sc2 couldve be or what it shouldve been. and not just the sc2 aracde things like starbow. it will happen im sure rts isnt dead its just waiting for its time moba is king rts will be back.
Yes I think same way
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On October 28 2016 22:34 ProMeTheus112 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2016 22:10 AssyrianKing wrote:
They need to go back to start of WoL and fix it from there. yeah changes I'd make to WoL : remove zealot charge (give speed upgrade and no dancing attack moves? ), remove marauder concussive shells, remove baneling or baneling hits single target, remove spawn larva, economy system with decreasing growth as you increase probe count on a base (up to 3 per mineral and consequently less than *2 minerals for 2 workers on a mineral that is a clearly better economy system for starcraft allowing more choices nuances and differenciations between races), maybe no gold bases? (that never worked great did it?), less tension for using scan (less money from mules probably), make creep give regen instead of speed (so as not to make relationships between Z units and others radically different on and off creep), creep tumors much harder to kill but spread slower?, make colo a 1 target unit ala void ray? or just less damage? remove?, less/no forcefields rework sentry or remove, move warpgate tech mid/late game, broodlord less damage or no broodlings (primary role obstruction?), strong tanks, marines&M cant move and shoot, no clumping pathing, bit increased collision, smaller maps? (more map presence both for bases and army movement and positioning), more defender advantage (high ground advantage and units can't move and shoot as much), generally less emphasis on hard counters, roach and hydra 1 supply and cheaper and weaker, less damage for units accross the board, battles last much longer, less spells, harass neither mandatory or game ending in most cases (killing workers more like 1 at a time and slower, even a DT might kill workers only in 2 hits, give more life to workers, now we may be talking improvement on BW instead of opposite)..... and many others, probably remove and add units, define new styles, Z makes more hatches larva more precious gains advantage from mining off more bases with less workers no imba "T3" has advantage of numbers (flexible) economy and mobility, T doesn't revolve only around medivac drops has flexibility in tech without imba bio positional with some vulnerability in movement, stronger base P units stable and solid can't burst as much but if not outnumbered very cost efficient with warp advantage..
who would actually be interested in something like that ? Working from start with WoL set of units, bringing only the changes that made sense and try to see what it yields ? I've been saying for a while that every new unit (from HotS and LotV alike) was a disaster ; bad, unnecessary or redundant (when not all of that ; when not straight harmful for the game).
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On October 29 2016 00:42 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2016 22:34 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On October 28 2016 22:10 AssyrianKing wrote:
They need to go back to start of WoL and fix it from there. yeah changes I'd make to WoL : remove zealot charge (give speed upgrade and no dancing attack moves? ), remove marauder concussive shells, remove baneling or baneling hits single target, remove spawn larva, economy system with decreasing growth as you increase probe count on a base (up to 3 per mineral and consequently less than *2 minerals for 2 workers on a mineral that is a clearly better economy system for starcraft allowing more choices nuances and differenciations between races), maybe no gold bases? (that never worked great did it?), less tension for using scan (less money from mules probably), make creep give regen instead of speed (so as not to make relationships between Z units and others radically different on and off creep), creep tumors much harder to kill but spread slower?, make colo a 1 target unit ala void ray? or just less damage? remove?, less/no forcefields rework sentry or remove, move warpgate tech mid/late game, broodlord less damage or no broodlings (primary role obstruction?), strong tanks, marines&M cant move and shoot, no clumping pathing, bit increased collision, smaller maps? (more map presence both for bases and army movement and positioning), more defender advantage (high ground advantage and units can't move and shoot as much), generally less emphasis on hard counters, roach and hydra 1 supply and cheaper and weaker, less damage for units accross the board, battles last much longer, less spells, harass neither mandatory or game ending in most cases (killing workers more like 1 at a time and slower, even a DT might kill workers only in 2 hits, give more life to workers, now we may be talking improvement on BW instead of opposite)..... and many others, probably remove and add units, define new styles, Z makes more hatches larva more precious gains advantage from mining off more bases with less workers no imba "T3" has advantage of numbers (flexible) economy and mobility, T doesn't revolve only around medivac drops has flexibility in tech without imba bio positional with some vulnerability in movement, stronger base P units stable and solid can't burst as much but if not outnumbered very cost efficient with warp advantage.. who would actually be interested in something like that ? Working from start with WoL set of units, bringing only the changes that made sense and try to see what it yields ? I've been saying for a while that every new unit (from HotS and LotV alike) was a disaster ; bad, unnecessary or redundant (when not all of that ; when not straight harmful for the game).
so long as I don't have to buy anything (I have only WoL), I'd be up for working on smtg like this with a little team ; for the fun of it and see what we can make while keeping some of the base essence ideas that are good (such as warp or expanding creep or addon switches ?).
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On October 29 2016 00:42 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2016 22:34 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On October 28 2016 22:10 AssyrianKing wrote:
They need to go back to start of WoL and fix it from there. yeah changes I'd make to WoL : remove zealot charge (give speed upgrade and no dancing attack moves? ), remove marauder concussive shells, remove baneling or baneling hits single target, remove spawn larva, economy system with decreasing growth as you increase probe count on a base (up to 3 per mineral and consequently less than *2 minerals for 2 workers on a mineral that is a clearly better economy system for starcraft allowing more choices nuances and differenciations between races), maybe no gold bases? (that never worked great did it?), less tension for using scan (less money from mules probably), make creep give regen instead of speed (so as not to make relationships between Z units and others radically different on and off creep), creep tumors much harder to kill but spread slower?, make colo a 1 target unit ala void ray? or just less damage? remove?, less/no forcefields rework sentry or remove, move warpgate tech mid/late game, broodlord less damage or no broodlings (primary role obstruction?), strong tanks, marines&M cant move and shoot, no clumping pathing, bit increased collision, smaller maps? (more map presence both for bases and army movement and positioning), more defender advantage (high ground advantage and units can't move and shoot as much), generally less emphasis on hard counters, roach and hydra 1 supply and cheaper and weaker, less damage for units accross the board, battles last much longer, less spells, harass neither mandatory or game ending in most cases (killing workers more like 1 at a time and slower, even a DT might kill workers only in 2 hits, give more life to workers, now we may be talking improvement on BW instead of opposite)..... and many others, probably remove and add units, define new styles, Z makes more hatches larva more precious gains advantage from mining off more bases with less workers no imba "T3" has advantage of numbers (flexible) economy and mobility, T doesn't revolve only around medivac drops has flexibility in tech without imba bio positional with some vulnerability in movement, stronger base P units stable and solid can't burst as much but if not outnumbered very cost efficient with warp advantage.. who would actually be interested in something like that ? Working from start with WoL set of units, bringing only the changes that made sense and try to see what it yields ? I've been saying for a while that every new unit (from HotS and LotV alike) was a disaster ; bad, unnecessary or redundant (when not all of that ; when not straight harmful for the game).
Actually not every single unit. Hellbats and lurkers added something good to the game, for instance.
But if you look at it closely, early HOTS ideas weren't that bad. Oracle being a caster that forcefielded minerals, the "shredder" which was a mine designed to control large areas but couldn't be activated with friendly units in it.
Those were innovative and interesting in design. But nah, oracle got out as a steroided banshee and the widow mine is the most frustrating unit for non terran players.
I can perfectly imagine the widow mine not being able to target workers, or that instead of shooting one big missile it deals a constant amount of damage to units that stay in its range.
I can perfectly imagine the oracle being able to forcefielding minerals, BUT having to be immobile on top of the mineral line for 2 secs to cast the spell (therefore static D would prevent that) and that the forcedfields would have 75 hps and 20 secs duration.
The units that were added in HOTS and LOTV could easily be made much more interesting and less punishing.
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On October 22 2016 04:12 Ej_ wrote:
yeah sure buff the fucking anti air of the new cyclones
thats what ive been wanting tbh
mech having a fucking thor on rollerblades
that kills roaches
perfect
i got to admit, i chuckled at that line.
Still, in a way their really coming home to BW balance since cyclone is now a goliath
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On October 29 2016 00:49 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2016 00:42 [PkF] Wire wrote:On October 28 2016 22:34 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On October 28 2016 22:10 AssyrianKing wrote:
They need to go back to start of WoL and fix it from there. yeah changes I'd make to WoL : remove zealot charge (give speed upgrade and no dancing attack moves? ), remove marauder concussive shells, remove baneling or baneling hits single target, remove spawn larva, economy system with decreasing growth as you increase probe count on a base (up to 3 per mineral and consequently less than *2 minerals for 2 workers on a mineral that is a clearly better economy system for starcraft allowing more choices nuances and differenciations between races), maybe no gold bases? (that never worked great did it?), less tension for using scan (less money from mules probably), make creep give regen instead of speed (so as not to make relationships between Z units and others radically different on and off creep), creep tumors much harder to kill but spread slower?, make colo a 1 target unit ala void ray? or just less damage? remove?, less/no forcefields rework sentry or remove, move warpgate tech mid/late game, broodlord less damage or no broodlings (primary role obstruction?), strong tanks, marines&M cant move and shoot, no clumping pathing, bit increased collision, smaller maps? (more map presence both for bases and army movement and positioning), more defender advantage (high ground advantage and units can't move and shoot as much), generally less emphasis on hard counters, roach and hydra 1 supply and cheaper and weaker, less damage for units accross the board, battles last much longer, less spells, harass neither mandatory or game ending in most cases (killing workers more like 1 at a time and slower, even a DT might kill workers only in 2 hits, give more life to workers, now we may be talking improvement on BW instead of opposite)..... and many others, probably remove and add units, define new styles, Z makes more hatches larva more precious gains advantage from mining off more bases with less workers no imba "T3" has advantage of numbers (flexible) economy and mobility, T doesn't revolve only around medivac drops has flexibility in tech without imba bio positional with some vulnerability in movement, stronger base P units stable and solid can't burst as much but if not outnumbered very cost efficient with warp advantage.. who would actually be interested in something like that ? Working from start with WoL set of units, bringing only the changes that made sense and try to see what it yields ? I've been saying for a while that every new unit (from HotS and LotV alike) was a disaster ; bad, unnecessary or redundant (when not all of that ; when not straight harmful for the game). Actually not every single unit. Hellbats and lurkers added something good to the game, for instance. But if you look at it closely, early HOTS ideas weren't that bad. Oracle being a caster that forcefielded minerals, the "shredder" which was a mine designed to control large areas but couldn't be activated with friendly units in it. Those were innovative and interesting in design. But nah, oracle got out as a steroided banshee and the widow mine is the most frustrating unit for non terran players. I can perfectly imagine the widow mine not being able to target workers, or that instead of shooting one big missile it deals a constant amount of damage to units that stay in its range. I can perfectly imagine the oracle being able to forcefielding minerals, BUT having to be immobile on top of the mineral line for 2 secs to cast the spell (therefore static D would prevent that) and that the forcedfields would have 75 hps and 20 secs duration. The units that were added in HOTS and LOTV could easily be made much more interesting and less punishing.
loved the replicant ?
I agree initial design ideas were far better : tempests to combat muta packs, oracles keeping minerals from being mined. But I stand by my point : you didn't need widow mines, you didn't need oracles, you didn't need lurkers. You could make an excellent game with WoL units and some changes (warpgate change, maybe FFs with hitpoints, some buff to the WoL ultra, projectile fungal, etc), probably a far better game than LotV will ever be now that we committed to oracles, swarm hosts etc.
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On October 22 2016 04:00 Musicus wrote:
...
Our main goal for StarCraft 2 is to create the best game of its type that it can ever be, and not necessarily selling more copies of the game or increasing the playerbase. Those are also great secondary goals, but we don’t feel that we should be in a place where we start to hurt the main, most important goal of StarCraft 2.
...
Please remember that this is a group effort, and we’re all trying to make the game better by working together. Thanks as always and let’s continue working at it even though we know this isn’t easy!
I find this part in particular a very interesting feedback. Totally love it.
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On October 29 2016 02:20 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2016 00:49 JackONeill wrote:On October 29 2016 00:42 [PkF] Wire wrote:On October 28 2016 22:34 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On October 28 2016 22:10 AssyrianKing wrote:
They need to go back to start of WoL and fix it from there. yeah changes I'd make to WoL : remove zealot charge (give speed upgrade and no dancing attack moves? ), remove marauder concussive shells, remove baneling or baneling hits single target, remove spawn larva, economy system with decreasing growth as you increase probe count on a base (up to 3 per mineral and consequently less than *2 minerals for 2 workers on a mineral that is a clearly better economy system for starcraft allowing more choices nuances and differenciations between races), maybe no gold bases? (that never worked great did it?), less tension for using scan (less money from mules probably), make creep give regen instead of speed (so as not to make relationships between Z units and others radically different on and off creep), creep tumors much harder to kill but spread slower?, make colo a 1 target unit ala void ray? or just less damage? remove?, less/no forcefields rework sentry or remove, move warpgate tech mid/late game, broodlord less damage or no broodlings (primary role obstruction?), strong tanks, marines&M cant move and shoot, no clumping pathing, bit increased collision, smaller maps? (more map presence both for bases and army movement and positioning), more defender advantage (high ground advantage and units can't move and shoot as much), generally less emphasis on hard counters, roach and hydra 1 supply and cheaper and weaker, less damage for units accross the board, battles last much longer, less spells, harass neither mandatory or game ending in most cases (killing workers more like 1 at a time and slower, even a DT might kill workers only in 2 hits, give more life to workers, now we may be talking improvement on BW instead of opposite)..... and many others, probably remove and add units, define new styles, Z makes more hatches larva more precious gains advantage from mining off more bases with less workers no imba "T3" has advantage of numbers (flexible) economy and mobility, T doesn't revolve only around medivac drops has flexibility in tech without imba bio positional with some vulnerability in movement, stronger base P units stable and solid can't burst as much but if not outnumbered very cost efficient with warp advantage.. who would actually be interested in something like that ? Working from start with WoL set of units, bringing only the changes that made sense and try to see what it yields ? I've been saying for a while that every new unit (from HotS and LotV alike) was a disaster ; bad, unnecessary or redundant (when not all of that ; when not straight harmful for the game). Actually not every single unit. Hellbats and lurkers added something good to the game, for instance. But if you look at it closely, early HOTS ideas weren't that bad. Oracle being a caster that forcefielded minerals, the "shredder" which was a mine designed to control large areas but couldn't be activated with friendly units in it. Those were innovative and interesting in design. But nah, oracle got out as a steroided banshee and the widow mine is the most frustrating unit for non terran players. I can perfectly imagine the widow mine not being able to target workers, or that instead of shooting one big missile it deals a constant amount of damage to units that stay in its range. I can perfectly imagine the oracle being able to forcefielding minerals, BUT having to be immobile on top of the mineral line for 2 secs to cast the spell (therefore static D would prevent that) and that the forcedfields would have 75 hps and 20 secs duration. The units that were added in HOTS and LOTV could easily be made much more interesting and less punishing. loved the replicant ? I agree initial design ideas were far better : tempests to combat muta packs, oracles keeping minerals from being mined. But I stand by my point : you didn't need widow mines, you didn't need oracles, you didn't need lurkers. You could make an excellent game with WoL units and some changes (warpgate change, maybe FFs with hitpoints, some buff to the WoL ultra, projectile fungal, etc), probably a far better game than LotV will ever be now that we committed to oracles, swarm hosts etc.
I don't really agree as some units really fill roles that races lacked a lot.
Zerg's unreliable AoE => lurker
Zerg's unability to break sieges => SH, ravager, viper (horrible fails i agree, but the idea still stands)
Terran's inability to withstand mass chargelots without kitting across the map or turtling really hard => hellbat/mines
Terran's lack of mech AA => cyclone
Protoss' stargate tech viability => oracle
Protoss' legitimate (in WOL) lack of ability to take a third and stretch out defenses => MSC (horrible fail)
But some units just don't make sense i agree :
Tempest => fills the role of the void ray (AA air fighter that focuses big threats) once it got nerfed into the ground, but ends up being each and every time the ultimate massable BS unit that breaks the game no matter how you try to counter it (i don't get how the tempest stayed as it is in the game since every single matchup that goes past the 15th minute ends up into protoss mindlessly massing tempest)
Viper => lategame toolbox that's too clumsy to survive... just like the infestor.
Cyclone => finally does his job in the game, but blizz wants to change it for it not to fill his role and be pointless
SH => no purpose whatsoever in fact
Oracle => just a banshee coupled with an observer
MSC => i won't even start or i won't finish
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On October 29 2016 02:44 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2016 02:20 [PkF] Wire wrote:On October 29 2016 00:49 JackONeill wrote:On October 29 2016 00:42 [PkF] Wire wrote:On October 28 2016 22:34 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On October 28 2016 22:10 AssyrianKing wrote:
They need to go back to start of WoL and fix it from there. yeah changes I'd make to WoL : remove zealot charge (give speed upgrade and no dancing attack moves? ), remove marauder concussive shells, remove baneling or baneling hits single target, remove spawn larva, economy system with decreasing growth as you increase probe count on a base (up to 3 per mineral and consequently less than *2 minerals for 2 workers on a mineral that is a clearly better economy system for starcraft allowing more choices nuances and differenciations between races), maybe no gold bases? (that never worked great did it?), less tension for using scan (less money from mules probably), make creep give regen instead of speed (so as not to make relationships between Z units and others radically different on and off creep), creep tumors much harder to kill but spread slower?, make colo a 1 target unit ala void ray? or just less damage? remove?, less/no forcefields rework sentry or remove, move warpgate tech mid/late game, broodlord less damage or no broodlings (primary role obstruction?), strong tanks, marines&M cant move and shoot, no clumping pathing, bit increased collision, smaller maps? (more map presence both for bases and army movement and positioning), more defender advantage (high ground advantage and units can't move and shoot as much), generally less emphasis on hard counters, roach and hydra 1 supply and cheaper and weaker, less damage for units accross the board, battles last much longer, less spells, harass neither mandatory or game ending in most cases (killing workers more like 1 at a time and slower, even a DT might kill workers only in 2 hits, give more life to workers, now we may be talking improvement on BW instead of opposite)..... and many others, probably remove and add units, define new styles, Z makes more hatches larva more precious gains advantage from mining off more bases with less workers no imba "T3" has advantage of numbers (flexible) economy and mobility, T doesn't revolve only around medivac drops has flexibility in tech without imba bio positional with some vulnerability in movement, stronger base P units stable and solid can't burst as much but if not outnumbered very cost efficient with warp advantage.. who would actually be interested in something like that ? Working from start with WoL set of units, bringing only the changes that made sense and try to see what it yields ? I've been saying for a while that every new unit (from HotS and LotV alike) was a disaster ; bad, unnecessary or redundant (when not all of that ; when not straight harmful for the game). Actually not every single unit. Hellbats and lurkers added something good to the game, for instance. But if you look at it closely, early HOTS ideas weren't that bad. Oracle being a caster that forcefielded minerals, the "shredder" which was a mine designed to control large areas but couldn't be activated with friendly units in it. Those were innovative and interesting in design. But nah, oracle got out as a steroided banshee and the widow mine is the most frustrating unit for non terran players. I can perfectly imagine the widow mine not being able to target workers, or that instead of shooting one big missile it deals a constant amount of damage to units that stay in its range. I can perfectly imagine the oracle being able to forcefielding minerals, BUT having to be immobile on top of the mineral line for 2 secs to cast the spell (therefore static D would prevent that) and that the forcedfields would have 75 hps and 20 secs duration. The units that were added in HOTS and LOTV could easily be made much more interesting and less punishing. loved the replicant ? I agree initial design ideas were far better : tempests to combat muta packs, oracles keeping minerals from being mined. But I stand by my point : you didn't need widow mines, you didn't need oracles, you didn't need lurkers. You could make an excellent game with WoL units and some changes (warpgate change, maybe FFs with hitpoints, some buff to the WoL ultra, projectile fungal, etc), probably a far better game than LotV will ever be now that we committed to oracles, swarm hosts etc. I don't really agree as some units really fill roles that races lacked a lot. Zerg's unreliable AoE => lurker Zerg's unability to break sieges => SH, ravager, viper (horrible fails i agree, but the idea still stands) Terran's inability to withstand mass chargelots without kitting across the map or turtling really hard => hellbat/mines Terran's lack of mech AA => cyclone Protoss' stargate tech viability => oracle Protoss' legitimate (in WOL) lack of ability to take a third and stretch out defenses => MSC (horrible fail) But some units just don't make sense i agree : Tempest => fills the role of the void ray (AA air fighter that focuses big threats) once it got nerfed into the ground, but ends up being each and every time the ultimate massable BS unit that breaks the game no matter how you try to counter it (i don't get how the tempest stayed as it is in the game since every single matchup that goes past the 15th minute ends up into protoss mindlessly massing tempest) Viper => lategame toolbox that's too clumsy to survive... just like the infestor. Cyclone => finally does his job in the game, but blizz wants to change it for it not to fill his role and be pointless SH => no purpose whatsoever in fact Oracle => just a banshee coupled with an observer MSC => i won't even start or i won't finish
thing is the fact that races were "incomplete" in WoL (Z couldn't siege, stargate wasn't viable as an opening, mech has bad AA) was GOOD. If everything is complete and styles/races have no weaknesses / specificities the game is dry, dull and plain uninteresting. There should be weaknesses / incompletenesses you have to get around to exploit the strengths of your race / style ; they should have never even tried to fill (at least some of) those roles if you ask me.
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