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Koreans go back to broodwar after SC2 for a reason. This is not about RTS being less popular than mobas. It is about people who by nature prefer to play RTS (minority) but still don't get satisfied with SC2 and switch to other games.
The goal is not to become bigger than the moba genre, it is about attracting people who naturally are dedicated to RTS.
Anyway this thread has quickly derailed to a biased balance fight about ultralisk armor again, which wont help the game go anywhere at all with all its narrow-mindedness.
This kind of thinking in fact prevented SC2 to become a better game. But people are still so blind that they would infinetely continue with that and if there were only 2 guys left playing SC2 they will continue to argue about ultralisk armour and wont move a bit from their position in defending their own race being the inferior one.
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On October 25 2016 19:39 washikie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2016 18:51 insitelol wrote:
While you guys are busy discussing ultra changes, i was wondering if im the only one concerned about the future we are going into?
Just read what they wrote:
"Regarding KR feedback:
We’ve been seeing a lot of discussion from the KR community on two points: making the game easier, and toning down harassment so that the general pace of the game is slower".
So they stated obvious facts koreans and all sane people have been saying for ages aka "stop pretending its Moba, its an RTS", "leave this game alone", "look at the shrinking numbers (viewrship/playerbase)", "blizzard stop please what are doing" etc etc, these type of comments, you know. And as far as i recall DK mentioned this in his previous interview at DH or w/e (not long ago).
But then they try to debate that with the following reasoning (?) and it's the best part:
"Our main goal for StarCraft 2 is to create the best game of its type that it can ever be, and not necessarily selling more copies of the game or increasing the playerbase. Those are also great secondary goals, but we don’t feel that we should be in a place where we start to hurt the main, most important goal of StarCraft 2".
Like, is this considered sane/normal to make posts like this? Are they out of their minds or what?
Because basically what they say is: we don't give a shit about what KR players think and won't even bother with explaing our position because we are right by default. because our main goal is to make the best gaem eva regardless of sales and playerbase.
I'll remind the audience one more time that the following factors accrued since LoTV release:
- Playerbase shrinked by half (compared to 2015);
- Twitch viewership numbers went down signifcantly;
- Kespa terminated SC2 related operations.
All this partially due to DKs strive for a more fast paced game/more diversity/more harrasment/more units/more micro abilities... And instead of accepting their complete failure and adminting the incompetence, they shake it off with pathetic excuses like this. "Our main goal for StarCraft 2 is to create the best game of its type and not necessarily selling more copies of the game or increasing the playerbase". Now they are martyrs, lead by a divine providence to make a best gaem, who don't care about popularity or public acceptance. Pathetic.
I mean what can you do? Sc2 is getting older and it's in a genre that was once mainstream but is now niche. Sure ballance has not been stellar nor game design. But even if it was I don't think sc2 would be in substantially better shape in terms of player base. Sc2 is damn hard it can't have the same casual appeal as mobas or fps. Rts in general just has an inherently higher barrier to entry than these types of games. I think blizzard has tried very hard, harder than any of its costumers should have expected to keep this game going. And I appluad them for that. We as a community might just have to accept that there is only so much they can do to prop up the game. It might just be unable to apeal to a larger audience. I think the problems go deeper than just a few tweeks to gameplay. And frankly I think if blizzard made the changes the kr scene is asking them to make in hopes of increasing the player base they would have to dumb the game down enogh that a lot of hardcore players, those of us who have stuck it out since wol might finally lose interest.
I just don't get that kind of logic. "RTS is destined to die so w/e". Is that how a multibillion company plan and develop their games? HoTS had a playerbase of 350k players with NO signs of rapid falling. It's not a small number. Release of LotV brought it down to 150k. It clearly has to do a lot with blizzard approach to the game (i mentioned it all above). It's clear that blizzard is ruining the game. But all you can say is: "Oh, well, at least they tried, it's fine". If someone's bleeding out - just finish him? Rts is an old and niche genre, this is obvious. But it definitely could be sustained at a decent level. Noone dreams about LoL or Dota numbers, but clearly 150k (and falling) is not what this company is capable of.
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You don't get that kind of logic cause it is not relevant. SC2 is not to become the one and only game on the market and kill mobas/cs but to stop disgusting hardcore RTS fans.
And the analysis that blizzard has done anything and failed and should be apploud to is wrong.
What about the general approach of less is more which they didn't follow at any time? Why always adding more stupid stuff instead of reducing the stupid stuff that exists? What about the buffs over nerfs thing? What about making everthing faster and faster? What about increasing instant win/lose scenarious instead of reducing them over the time? What about battles being deceided within few seconds with only little chance to make differences as as an excellent player? What about the whole mindset of "balance the game on prolevel and everything will be fine"?
They failed in their approaches and key notes and that is the reason for hc RTS fan departure.
As I have stated several times before the mindest could be like:
Is x vs y interaction fun/frustrating/punishing/rewarding. What can we do to help that? Not: Is it balanced on prolevel.
Is it really necessary to implement more stupid things (nexus/pylon cannon, oracles, mutalisk regeneration, ravagers, 15 range cyclons, 20 range tempest, the whole liberator unit on its own, etc.) in a mindset of more is more or could we achieve things better in a mindset of less is more that would involve toning things down instead of implementing op units/mechanics against already existing op units to potentially balance that stupid shit out on prolevel?
etc.
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Another and arguably better way to diminish harassment damage, is to buff defenders advantage. That way strong harassment units still remain strong when you spread out and get to 5-6 bases. I love the action pack nature in LotV, but I do think the average game time is a bit too low, especially with current bo3, bo5, bo7 systems. Within the current game state a Blizzcon finals really should be a bo9.
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On October 25 2016 19:56 LSN wrote:
Koreans go back to broodwar after SC2 for a reason. This is not about RTS being less popular than mobas. It is about people who by nature prefer to play RTS (minority) but still don't get satisfied with SC2 and switch to other games.
The goal is not to become bigger than the moba genre, it is about attracting people who naturally are dedicated to RTS.
Anyway this thread has quickly derailed to a biased balance fight about ultralisk armor again, which wont help the game go anywhere at all with all its narrow-mindedness.
This kind of thinking in fact prevented SC2 to become a better game. But people are still so blind that they would infinetely continue with that and if there were only 2 guys left playing SC2 they will continue to argue about ultralisk armour and wont move a bit from their position in defending their own race being the inferior one.
I couldn't agree more. The whole "the RTS genre is dying" has become a scapegoat for every bad design decision made by Blizzard in SC2. The RTS genre won't be bigger than the MOBA or FPS genre, we all know that. But the point here is that a better designed game (like BW) would have made the scene much more sustainable and would retain a lot more players allowing the genre to stabilize in a much healthier state. It is that simple.
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On October 25 2016 20:22 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2016 19:56 LSN wrote:
Koreans go back to broodwar after SC2 for a reason. This is not about RTS being less popular than mobas. It is about people who by nature prefer to play RTS (minority) but still don't get satisfied with SC2 and switch to other games.
The goal is not to become bigger than the moba genre, it is about attracting people who naturally are dedicated to RTS.
Anyway this thread has quickly derailed to a biased balance fight about ultralisk armor again, which wont help the game go anywhere at all with all its narrow-mindedness.
This kind of thinking in fact prevented SC2 to become a better game. But people are still so blind that they would infinetely continue with that and if there were only 2 guys left playing SC2 they will continue to argue about ultralisk armour and wont move a bit from their position in defending their own race being the inferior one. I couldn't agree more. The whole "the RTS genre is dying" has become a scapegoat for every bad design decision made by Blizzard in SC2. The RTS genre won't be bigger than the MOBA or FPS genre, we all know that. But the point here is that a better designed game (like BW) would have made the scene much more sustainable and would retain a lot more players allowing the genre to stabilize in a much healthier state. It is that simple.
Coop actually was a smart move in that regard. Attracting casual players without screwing multiplayer.
But yeah DK's vision for the game was :
- "people are masturbating over KR APM and multitask. Let's increase this aspect of the game."
- which led to "let's make everything binary and volatile in the game much stronger, while screwing the risk/reward ratio of worker harass"
- which led to "no one wants to play a RTS that's volatile and where worker harass has no downside whatsoever"
- which led to "pro are having troubles to get sponsored because no one plays the game and no one watches the game"
This has nothing to do with RTS as a genre.
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regarding "more is more" and "less is more" or "Is x vs y interaction fun/frustrating/punishing/rewarding. What can we do to help that?" ; a lot of it has to do with whether interactions are nuanced or not. Of course adding stupid stuff completely CUTS nuances in the game such as PO, even just one bad addition can totally destroy huge parts of the game. That's why whenever something is added or modified its interactions with every other things must be considered.
that's one reason why too many hard counters or too hard counters, or volatile situations, or too fast battles or too gambly/all-inish/unstable strats or also that which is very fixed in strat structures are not fun or good : they break nuances. You can't engage as much tactical or strategic creativity or skill in it, it's more merely focused on a knowledge/control/speed check that would still be there anyway if the nuances were present. If you look at BW it has a lot more nuances in it without instability in pretty much all parts of the game, interactions between units, positionning, economic possibilities, build possibilities, results of attacking, defending etc. (not to say you don't find some rigidity like pvz opening you could say, but for example even the way that you start arbiter tech in pvt and how many arbiters you make and how you use them is very nuanced / not to mention you do have other choices (well carriers pretty much, which is also nuanced) ;; anyway personally I'm convinced an even better game than BW can be made ofc thats what I expect from SC2 or a new RTS etc)
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Indeed proetheus.
The mutalisk regen is a perfect example btw. Mutalisk harrass should come at a price. The price that mutalisks will be damaged after the harrassment and can be used less optimal only after that for quite some time.
If you let them regenerate quickly this downside has no effect anymore and using them offensively is always the best option at any time you don't need them for defence. That alone reduces strategical depth big time and made SC2 so much of a worse game, it is unspeakable.
Now it is important to acknowledge cause and effect. And there you have to ask why did they get regeneration at the first place? And the clear reason was that in the TvZ metagame of overpowered bio play zerg needed such an overpowered harrassment unit so that they would be able to harrass at all without dying instantly to the counter push.
The correct solution was not to give muta regeneration but to widen things up and tone down bio. The problem here was that zerg had no sustainable unit against bio. Lings/banelings mostly die in the constant encounters and zerg would never get the chance to become offensive.
Now fill in the mine in that construct. Why the mine? Cause when zerg got an overwhelming mutalisk force nothing could stop these op mutalisks anymore at overrunning the terran, but mines could. No matter how good/fun/frustrating/punishing kind of interactions the mine creates, it could achieve this job.
Wrong. Terrans would need no op mines if zerg didn't have op mutas. And zerg didn't have op mutas if terran didn't have op tier 1 bio.
As you can see for me it makes only few sense to discuss LOTV focussed, carry all the issues of WOL and HOTS still and take them as a given. They are not.
Restore all the strategical depths and options that have been lost over the time due to implementation of stupid units/mechanics and SC2 can become a fulfilling game.
- P/O
- Oracles
- Tier 1 bio massing above everything else
- ravagers
- fenixes
- mines
- etc.
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You're right for sure (and I agree with all examples you listed). That's why I have no hope of ever coming back to play a good SC2 modified by blizzard^^ We players or others can do it, but the problem lies in communication about the new version and getting people to play it etc, the community building aspect on the better game.
On the one hand it's amazing how bad an understanding of RTS the designer(s) of SC2 have. On the other hand I suspect it was done on purpose to make the game straightforward and keep luring casual players into a competitive money scene. I believe the OP bio was always a ploy to draw in the least dedicated players to have a straightforward tool to play with on a basic level, after coming out of the T campaign in WoL. I believe guys like Dustin Browder and Davik Kim are outright liars and obedient to a hierarchy that draws things out for business, marketing and financial reasons. They have created a disgusting example not quite deserving of the Starcraft name.
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Yeah the muta regen was a pretty horrible idea. Actually both the regen and the speed buff were horrible ideas.
It's just like the tankivac : taking away the weakness that allows strength. Tank can have high dmg output because they're fucking bolted to the floor. Mutas can be extremely mobile because they're not that great in frontal situations and that when they take damage they have to regen for a long time.
And regen even made them much better in frontal situations because dealing damage on a muta flock is useless, you have to KILL some amount of them to trade.
That's why thors are so fucking horrible against HOTS/LOTV mutas. Zergs won't stop killing your armory because the muta fock ate a javelin volley. As long as you get out after taking the second one, you dealt damage with NO DOWNSIDE.
And that's where the mine come in. It's worth it because you'll always kill at least a muta.
Watching old Bomber vs DRG TvZ on WOL was so much more fun and much more interesting.
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The community can't. Some individuals could. The community on average is on the notion to believe +1/-1 armour of ultralisks is the key thing to discuss. And this is being pushed by the demand of Blizzard that balance of the game on pro-level is the only maxim and fixes everything else.
It is almost at a gg no re status, you are right. Even the now taking place rebalance is all through hopeless if fundamental mistakes are being carried with it. It just wont succeed but shift problems elsewhere.
Yes @jack but that requires you to understand that a Terran game cannon evolve around building 10 barracks and pushing out rines/rauders 80% of the time as a valid win strategy at the first place. The mobility, sustainability and op damage of bio narrows down so many strategical counter-options so that the colossus and baneling meta had to exist which made the game boring above anything else.
You cannot give bio
- max mobility with stim and medivacs
- max dps
- heal
- remove the last downside vs armoured units through the existance of marauders
and expect a fulfilling game to evolve around that.
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And DK playing community manager trying to direct discussion topics^^ yeah, gg no re
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LOTV has brought sc2 a lot of good things, especially coop. But the 1v1 ladder games are frustrating. Nathanias said people play more COOP than the multiplayer. Its good to see people still play the game, but it would be nice to see more 1v1 games as well. The player base dropped a lot and like said many times before, "rts is dying" is bs.
To me HOTS is still the best expansion, maybe tweaking a few things and the game would be amazing (f.e. the turrets of ravens, tempest supply) and the time to be able to micro your army and have great fights.
LOTV units dont feel right to me. Adepts that can be at 2 spots at once, hardly any cooldown and you have to wall off better vs toss than vs zerg. Liberators, especially with the range feels so wrong, disruptor balls that cant be dodged in many situations. Tankivacs, no need to talk even more about this (puke). Stasis ward, energy spell that doesnt expire. Nydus worms , 8 armor ultralisks, snipe with delay. the line when mines fire, pylons that kill your depots, ravager rushes and is the only unit in the game that can attack at a random spot, killing burrowed units, super fast ling drops and dont forget the reaper grenades, vipers with parasitic bomb that counters the counter. the list is big and i forget a lot of stuff.
Fights can be over in an instant and if you didnt react in 4 femto seconds you are dead.
Yes, many many people will disagree and say: "the pro's dont have issues with it, all is fine" , "l2p" , "get a good buildorder" , "go play dota" etc.
Casuals buy the game, casuals like to watch the game they like on Twitch, casuals are the backbone of the support. Yes SC2 supposed to be hard, but lotv is made extra hard just for the sake of it. But its has become so hard due new units, faster gamespeed and eco that casuals are having insane difficulties. Even advanced players struggle and are more frustrated than before and because of that not playing/streaming much or at all anymore.
Therefor im glad Blizzard is changing the game a lot with the upcoming balance patch, removing tankivacs etc. Yet, there is so much "BS" left. F.e. the 19 range seeker missle, tempest with a spell. Just tweaking the tempest was enough, reducing range, speed or supply and it would be a fine unit. Parasitic bomb is instant, but the seeker is 19 range leash. I prefer an instant casted spell, but 19 range and you cant dodge it either so you have to split. and dont forget the "seeker the hellion and run it into the enemy" trick. Sure it will be "exciting" but it will be frustrating as well.
Reduce the gimmicky spells, keep the game more honest and straight up, but the game is filled with BS since LOTV.
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LOTV units are a sole consequence of carried over mistakes from WOL & HOTS, barely anything else. If you take them mistakes as a given they make sense to a certain degree and are well designed. If you don't it is a nonsense to take them into account when discussing SC2 in general.
OP adapts didn't even need to exist if massing bio as terran wasn't the key strategy (lol) at any matchup. The adept is the clear follower of the colossi. As colossi was boring they had to deliver something new. But the game will stay boring that way. It is simply shifting issues and making them less visible, not solving them. The same is true for the ravager, to give zerg something else than baneling/muta (which was taken away with the liberators anyway) to face bio with.
Ravagers are a frustrating unit as
a) they require too much micro to be efficient at a constant level
b) their biles don't hit anything anyway most of the time in higher level games and your efforts are wasted
c) if they mass hit however in situations where the opponent cannot dodge them anymore become hopelessly overpowered.
This is the definition of frustrating gameplay. They render more or less useless (apart from their threatening factor) as long as the biles barely hit anything but require maximum amount of micro and care and become extremely op as soon as biles cannot be dodged anymore by the opponent. It is exactly the opposite of how it should be.
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Well if you can follow me so far you might even understand why I claim that progamers by default cannot be the solution and the promise to fix SC2. They have to by default take things as a given and benefit from them, abuse what is given to them and cannot afford to think outside the box without decreasing their level of play (then they were no pros anymore by default mechanism).
That way SC2 was doomed to go where it is now. Blizzard requesting only top-level feedback could by default potentially make the game balanced but not necessarily good, and their own ideas where based solely on taking former decisions as a given.
And this even denies the game to become good as that might interrupt with balance first and then 80% of TL forums starts to go full retard about +1/-1 ultralisk armour or whatever it is then. However if you create good interactions and design first, the balance can take place later at any time - not the other way round.
It is disgusting how few people seem to understand these mechanics and how blizzard worked hand in hand with the TL community (not only that) to achieve the given state.
Also the popular views of only pro-gamers and high grandmasters should be able to voice their opinions here or elsewhere took their good part in that.
Recently there was this guy who suggested unlimited amount of MSC for protoss amongst a few other things. He claimed to have two accounts in korean GM league and is on rootgaming roster.
No offence (if you read that), I enjoyed some of the other proposals. But I could not identify at all if these suggestions came from a kor-GM leaguer or a platin EU/US player. There was no difference. It was pure thinking inside the box blizzard handed to you ("yeah unlimited MSC") and focussed onto the view of a protoss player - not taking other races into account or general benefit of the game. So where is the difference?
Why do noobs get flamed for the same proposals (unlimited amount of MSC) and pros/semi-pros don't or not as much?
Why would pro/semi-pro opinions that voice such nonsense as unlimited MSC be more valuable than the opinion of any random noob out there?
Well don't get me wrong. I am overdoing it a bit the same way the focus on pro-level feedback is overdone here in the forums and from blizzard since years. Pro-feedback is important for their special insight and can contribute alot, just not at the state where SC2 is right now I guess.
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I believe more people understand this stuff than appears, but many will refrain talking about it (publicly) if they are making any money from activity that depends on the game I would say understandably, and those who leave stop talking and may not even ever publicly leave a message. That's what I did when I left during the first months of WoL (yes it was already obvious), I never posted on TL or publicly, only talked to my friends. But you are right the solution is not just asking pros, it's about having a good design (and team) to begin with and then sure balance polish and fine tuning may be adjusted with top level feedback with careful and educated consideration. The method used here is mostly demagogic, misleading and destructive. I think it was Iloveoov who said something about that, comparing to wow. Also a good player is not necessarily a good designer (or a good designer a good player), that was briefly mentioned before though even by DK, it's not up to the players to imagine a good design for the game and even their feedback on balance may be off, observation and correct intents are most important, there can be many different possible ways to develop in good or bad directions, etc.
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Sure thing. That whole thing is rigged.
It reaches probably from the blizzard employee who doesn't dare to question formely decided things again over the casters/pro-players all the way towards to staff of e.g. Teamliquid.
When I said bio is too strong for a balanced SC2 3 years ago the very first time I was attacked by casters and pro-players on teamliquid in the balance discussion thread.
When I made the thread about why in detail feedback of pros isn't the thing that SC2 requires now to become more attractive and a better overall game guys like Waxangel from TL come into the thread and say it is a bad quality post.
And you know why that is? Cause it is questioning their status as the guys who know everything and see everything and have the solution for everything above everyone else.
In such environments you don't only lose players/fans but as well won't find correct solutions.
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yep. In a hierarchical business pyramid some can be tempted to only reflect positivity or argue only within accepted boundaries so as to keep their status or climb^^ while forms of bribery or coercion may occur in the dark  or not dark. haha
this is a pyramid in ruins holding the monopole of modern RTS
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On October 25 2016 22:23 ProMeTheus112 wrote:yep. In a hierarchical business pyramid some can be tempted to only reflect positivity or argue within accepted boundaries so as to keep their status or climb^^ while forms of bribery or coercion may occur in the dark or not dark. haha
That is due to relatively modern science the biggest source of failures within businesses and companies. But guess what: 95% of the guys here will never understand why and that.
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EPT
