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On October 24 2016 22:54 Aegwynn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2016 22:40 Musicus wrote:On October 24 2016 22:34 Elentos wrote:On October 24 2016 21:40 rqPlan wrote:On October 24 2016 20:25 Dingodile wrote:On October 24 2016 18:15 rqPlan wrote:
Say what you want, It's still a buff. I doubt that +3 armor is meaningless so that everyone will stay at 4 armor. There is a window and oportunity for the zerg with that buff. There are situations where this is a buff. This is only a buff for that less than a minute time frame every game where the Terran is pushing and ultras are out but don't have plating yet. And that minute is one of the worse parts about TvZ anyway. Gameplay that revolves about T hitting a timing like that sucks. It's better if zerg has a better chance at surviving during that minute and Terran a better chance at winning afterwards. Do you realize that timing won't exist anymore because there is no need to push since ultras are easy to deal with? Do you remember the utter garbage hots ultras? This will be just 1 armor above it, they will be ok vs bio but not that great. No zerg will put their all eggs in the ultra basket anymore because it doesn't put you in a great spot that worth the investment.
That 1 armor still makes a huge difference vs Marines and LotV Marauders will still be way weaker than in HotS. Ultras will still be worth it vs bio, if it's no longer enough to turn the tide, since T gets to far ahead in the midgame, then buff the midgame from zerg instead.
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On October 25 2016 01:43 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2016 22:54 Aegwynn wrote:On October 24 2016 22:40 Musicus wrote:On October 24 2016 22:34 Elentos wrote:On October 24 2016 21:40 rqPlan wrote:On October 24 2016 20:25 Dingodile wrote:On October 24 2016 18:15 rqPlan wrote:
Say what you want, It's still a buff. I doubt that +3 armor is meaningless so that everyone will stay at 4 armor. There is a window and oportunity for the zerg with that buff. There are situations where this is a buff. This is only a buff for that less than a minute time frame every game where the Terran is pushing and ultras are out but don't have plating yet. And that minute is one of the worse parts about TvZ anyway. Gameplay that revolves about T hitting a timing like that sucks. It's better if zerg has a better chance at surviving during that minute and Terran a better chance at winning afterwards. Do you realize that timing won't exist anymore because there is no need to push since ultras are easy to deal with? Do you remember the utter garbage hots ultras? This will be just 1 armor above it, they will be ok vs bio but not that great. No zerg will put their all eggs in the ultra basket anymore because it doesn't put you in a great spot that worth the investment. That 1 armor still makes a huge difference vs Marines and LotV Marauders will still be way weaker than in HotS. Ultras will still be worth it vs bio, if it's no longer enough to turn the tide, since T gets to far ahead in the midgame, then buff the midgame from zerg instead.
yes that's what you need and get out of the fixed meta game of always the same 16marine drop into T favored mid into Z hides and prepares imba ultras and roll over T endgame its so repetitive, ultras also need to deal less damage but w/e ^^ these things can't just be done with small specific changes
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Talk about uphill battles!
All these years they worked towards making SC2 faster paced and more diverse. It would appear, they achieved that and as a result, the pros are telling them to slow down the game. I guess they went too far. Now they have to go back to HOTS without going back to HOTS. IMO the Twitch viewing figures give a clear indication about where people would rather see the game.
IMO the high frustration potential of SC2 that has chased off so many players is an effect of Blizz actually succeeding in creating diversity in the game. I don't think balance tweaks can be a solution to this problem. No matter what the pros think and say, you have to have a fun game to enable a wide fan base. This is not receiving as much attention as it should. But you have to start somewhere.
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a diversity of all ins -.-
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People don't seem to realize how insane +1 range and movement speed is for hydras.
I see people theory crafting roach hydra and how it will he weak glass cannon still but that +1range and speed makes it enough to forego other units and just go pure hydra to combat mech extremely cost effectively- sprinlkle in lung bane for midgame and viper late and broodlord viper ultra late and it's formidable to say the least
I think people will be hit with how strong it is once test map hits ladder. Since blizzard haven't mentioned it one bit in past few community feedback, I assume they are really unaware of it
Anyways, even if it may be strong imo, hydra should be core zerg unit, not the lame ass roach. If they are going to nerf hydra, I hope it doesn't touch the changes
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On October 25 2016 03:53 jinjin5000 wrote:
People don't seem to realize how insane +1 range and movement speed is for hydras.
I see people theory crafting roach hydra and how it will he weak glass cannon still but that +1range and speed makes it enough to forego other units and just go pure hydra to combat mech extremely cost effectively- sprinlkle in lung bane for midgame and viper late and broodlord viper ultra late and it's formidable to say the least
I think people will be hit with how strong it is once test map hits ladder. Since blizzard haven't mentioned it one bit in past few community feedback, I assume they are really unaware of it
Anyways, even if it may be strong imo, hydra should be core zerg unit, not the lame ass roach. If they are going to need hydra, I hope it doesn't touch the changes
tanks still wreck hydras on the test map and their speed off creep hasn't changed
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On October 25 2016 03:55 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2016 03:53 jinjin5000 wrote:
People don't seem to realize how insane +1 range and movement speed is for hydras.
I see people theory crafting roach hydra and how it will he weak glass cannon still but that +1range and speed makes it enough to forego other units and just go pure hydra to combat mech extremely cost effectively- sprinlkle in lung bane for midgame and viper late and broodlord viper ultra late and it's formidable to say the least
I think people will be hit with how strong it is once test map hits ladder. Since blizzard haven't mentioned it one bit in past few community feedback, I assume they are really unaware of it
Anyways, even if it may be strong imo, hydra should be core zerg unit, not the lame ass roach. If they are going to need hydra, I hope it doesn't touch the changes
tanks still wreck hydras on the test map and their speed off creep hasn't changed
Defensive tanks behind turret wall sure, but on open field, hydra trades extremely well against mech. That's without vipers.
+1 range does wonders. More than you'd think. I thought it would be like that but +1 range does so much for concave/spread
I can't comment on if you played test map or not but my experience on test map have been exactly that- pure hydra deals with stuff really well as long as its not choke point or behind heavy wall
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On October 25 2016 03:55 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2016 03:53 jinjin5000 wrote:
People don't seem to realize how insane +1 range and movement speed is for hydras.
I see people theory crafting roach hydra and how it will he weak glass cannon still but that +1range and speed makes it enough to forego other units and just go pure hydra to combat mech extremely cost effectively- sprinlkle in lung bane for midgame and viper late and broodlord viper ultra late and it's formidable to say the least
I think people will be hit with how strong it is once test map hits ladder. Since blizzard haven't mentioned it one bit in past few community feedback, I assume they are really unaware of it
Anyways, even if it may be strong imo, hydra should be core zerg unit, not the lame ass roach. If they are going to need hydra, I hope it doesn't touch the changes
tanks still wreck hydras on the test map and their speed off creep hasn't changed
On my eyes Jinjin has it right, Hydras on the test map atm are a very good tech path in order to deal with strong Tank based Mech, on spread out situations they deal very well cost efficiency wise vs Tank Lib based armies, same thing can't be said of Roach Ravager, who takes bonus dmg from Tank volleys and even when well microed can't reliably shoot down Liberators, and when T's place their armies set up around 3 siege tank stacks+libs+hellbats+a thor+some turrets RoachRav+Speedling simply does not cut it, the comp is DPS down before the damage of the roaches can really stack up, this coupled with the short roach range means that roaches even when pre-splitted tend to clump much harder than long ranged hydras. All of this is during Late-Midgame scenarios, on later stages Viper+Broodlord+Hydra heavy with light roachling support works very well dealing with Mech.
Frost is a quite fun map to play on when these comps are set, this is the direction I think Maps should at least partially go on, only with maybe allowing for easier 5th bases for the Mech player.
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Map design has is as big a factor on harassment as the unit design themselves.
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On October 25 2016 03:53 jinjin5000 wrote:
People don't seem to realize how insane +1 range and movement speed is for hydras.
I see people theory crafting roach hydra and how it will he weak glass cannon still but that +1range and speed makes it enough to forego other units and just go pure hydra to combat mech extremely cost effectively- sprinlkle in lung bane for midgame and viper late and broodlord viper ultra late and it's formidable to say the least
I think people will be hit with how strong it is once test map hits ladder. Since blizzard haven't mentioned it one bit in past few community feedback, I assume they are really unaware of it
Anyways, even if it may be strong imo, hydra should be core zerg unit, not the lame ass roach. If they are going to nerf hydra, I hope it doesn't touch the changes
I'm pretty confident +1 range won't make it into the game or will be reverted pretty fast.
not sure about zvt but in zvp it's definitely to good, the winrates will fall heavily into zergs favor.
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On October 25 2016 04:56 K_osss wrote:
Map design has is as big a factor on harassment as the unit design themselves.
Oh for sure, atm the mapmaking scene and lines of thought is on a very, very awkward place, which I hope I can go on further on these Blogs that I have been writing. Trying to design Maps for a StarCraft who on its future will experience such a strong change as to have stronger Siege Tanks who arguably might be the Top 2 unit which dictates Map Design+Not knowing what other ideas the DevTeam has regarding the future of map design+dealing with things like TLMC voting (which is being fixed now) and 1st stage judges who might cherry pick maps based on previous LotV experience that does not apply for such a strong change map wise because of SiegeTanks. Overall it all means that the mapmaking scene has it very tough regarding on if it is actually worth it to spend the time making maps at all, under the risk that the hundreds of hours you put in might get 100% wasted because one of those links missed the memo that the game is changing.
Anyhow, I personally see with this Tank Change sc2 maps going more towards BW based layouts regarding the lack of complex central map features that could be easily exploited by Mech comps and stronger tanks. Same thing with the 4/5th bases, and making them in such a way as to allow Mech/Toss/Zerg players hold them with a small amount of strong terrain controlling units, which is completely different than has been in the past.
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On October 25 2016 05:02 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2016 03:53 jinjin5000 wrote:
People don't seem to realize how insane +1 range and movement speed is for hydras.
I see people theory crafting roach hydra and how it will he weak glass cannon still but that +1range and speed makes it enough to forego other units and just go pure hydra to combat mech extremely cost effectively- sprinlkle in lung bane for midgame and viper late and broodlord viper ultra late and it's formidable to say the least
I think people will be hit with how strong it is once test map hits ladder. Since blizzard haven't mentioned it one bit in past few community feedback, I assume they are really unaware of it
Anyways, even if it may be strong imo, hydra should be core zerg unit, not the lame ass roach. If they are going to nerf hydra, I hope it doesn't touch the changes
I'm pretty confident +1 range won't make it into the game or will be reverted pretty fast. not sure about zvt but in zvp it's definitely to good, the winrates will fall heavily into zergs favor.
Imo changes I think should be made to highlight hydra based composition as main zerg comp rather than roaches. If they are going to nerf, it should be damage not others
Anyways, with current numbers, I can't seem to engage zerg outside of my own defensive wall. If I try to be aggressive without help of massive turret wall or production walls, I find myself getting crushed by concave hydra and need ravens against hydra- and vikings eventually against vipers and broodlord, which i can't really figure out how to deal with. Mass amount of para bomb is really hard to deal with even when split with small amount of hydra support
Hmm
I like the fact hydra is main army of zerg now after change but I don't like how I need raven to deal with it and consequently, para bomb damaging the said raven to deal with hydras. Oh well. We will see when the patch officially hits
Ik people will say l2split but parasitic bomb radius and stacking frankly is hard to deal with
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It's good to look at the ultra, but the armor isn't the reason it's broken in any way.
Transfuses and queen snowball throughout the game is the reason.
Zerg late game units can't be too powerfull because of queens. Broodlords can't be buffed because of queens. Ultras can't be too strong because of queens.
The AA range buff made it even more cancerous since you can't shoot with queens at vikings from under BLs.
I fail to see how when terran start to play defensive and turtly with mech it's the end of the world, but zerg having to litterally camp all game long while massing queens to have unkillable ultras it's fine.
Regarding the hydra, i've played the test map quite a lot and it really feels fine against mech.
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On October 25 2016 10:53 JackONeill wrote:
It's good to look at the ultra, but the armor isn't the reason it's broken in any way.
Transfuses and queen snowball throughout the game is the reason.
Zerg late game units can't be too powerfull because of queens. Broodlords can't be buffed because of queens. Ultras can't be too strong because of queens.
The AA range buff made it even more cancerous since you can't shoot with queens at vikings from under BLs.
I fail to see how when terran start to play defensive and turtly with mech it's the end of the world, but zerg having to litterally camp all game long while massing queens to have unkillable ultras it's fine.
Regarding the hydra, i've played the test map quite a lot and it really feels fine against mech.
Aggressive mech timings seem to not really work once hydralisks are out
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Move the game speed down from fastest to fast. See what happens.
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I like the change of Ultralisk, but only if Blizzard buffs Zerg midgame vs BIO Terran. If not- this will make impossible for Zerg to win. Let's imagine game like this- Terran makes standard 16 marine, 2 medivak push. Even if Zerg will defend it, this push set's him behind in economy. Terran has his third, massing bio. Now, for Zerg, the only chance is to survive till Ultras with plating, to push bio (with mines, tankivacks or libs) back. With that nerf to plating, which is effectively -1 to armour, Marines for example deal double the damage to ultras. If u think that's not enough, look what 3/3 bio ball does with 2/2 Ultra with plating. Ultras are not as invincible without 3 armour upgrade as u would think. They need full set of upgrades and plating upgrade to be our "imba ultras". Changing only this, and not giving Zerg some buffs in midgame is not really fair. ZvT vs BIO looks like this nowadays, because Zerg cannot compete with Terran in midgame. That's why he turtles to lategame. I don't like this either, and i like nerfing slightly ultras to make the game even in lategame scenario. But in that case. Blizzard should buff Zerg midgame. Hydra buff won't cut it as it's trash vs Bio (even without mines or tanks- and i assume tanks will be more common nowadays).
So Blizzard u want to make it fair? Give us back 4 larva to make our midgame more competetive. Since WOL, Zerg's only advantage over protoss and Terran was ability to set our economy fast and pump swarm. Remember that most of Zerg's units are weaker thatn T or P, have less micro potential. U MADE ZERG to be swarm. With nerfing Zerg's only cost effective composition in lategame, u must concider this change to- 4 larva or riot! I'm not kidding. With nerfed ultras, even with -1 armour, Zerg will be trash in midgame, and trash in lategame. Thanks David Kim...As always u listen to Terran whiners, not reason.
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On October 25 2016 10:53 JackONeill wrote:
It's good to look at the ultra, but the armor isn't the reason it's broken in any way.
Transfuses and queen snowball throughout the game is the reason.
Zerg late game units can't be too powerfull because of queens. Broodlords can't be buffed because of queens. Ultras can't be too strong because of queens.
The AA range buff made it even more cancerous since you can't shoot with queens at vikings from under BLs.
I fail to see how when terran start to play defensive and turtly with mech it's the end of the world, but zerg having to litterally camp all game long while massing queens to have unkillable ultras it's fine.
Regarding the hydra, i've played the test map quite a lot and it really feels fine against mech.
No, armor is the reason Ultras have been tipped into being nearly broken. They weren't as much of a problem in HotS.
On equal upgrades, Marines went from dealing 3 damage to Ultras with Chitinous Plating to now dealing just 1 damage. Marauders went from dealing 17 to 20 damage to now only dealing 10 damage.on equal upgrades against Ultras with Chitinous Plating. That's a severe drop in attack damage against Ultras. Ultras are three times as durable against Marines and nearly twice as durable against Marauders. That's not a subtle change.
The proposed balance change is a good step in the right direction between the HotS and LotV values for Ultra armor. Marines will deal 2 damage against them, and Marauders will deal 12 damage. It's mostly the Marauder attack change to two projectiles that's hampering their effectiveness against Ultralisks.
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While you guys are busy discussing ultra changes, i was wondering if im the only one concerned about the future we are going into?
Just read what they wrote:
"Regarding KR feedback:
We’ve been seeing a lot of discussion from the KR community on two points: making the game easier, and toning down harassment so that the general pace of the game is slower".
So they stated obvious facts koreans and all sane people have been saying for ages aka "stop pretending its Moba, its an RTS", "leave this game alone", "look at the shrinking numbers (viewrship/playerbase)", "blizzard stop please what are doing" etc etc, these type of comments, you know. And as far as i recall DK mentioned this in his previous interview at DH or w/e (not long ago).
But then they try to debate that with the following reasoning (?) and it's the best part:
"Our main goal for StarCraft 2 is to create the best game of its type that it can ever be, and not necessarily selling more copies of the game or increasing the playerbase. Those are also great secondary goals, but we don’t feel that we should be in a place where we start to hurt the main, most important goal of StarCraft 2".
Like, is this considered sane/normal to make posts like this? Are they out of their minds or what?
Because basically what they say is: we don't give a shit about what KR players think and won't even bother with explaing our position because we are right by default. because our main goal is to make the best gaem eva regardless of sales and playerbase.
I'll remind the audience one more time that the following factors accrued since LoTV release:
- Playerbase shrinked by half (compared to 2015);
- Twitch viewership numbers went down signifcantly;
- Kespa terminated SC2 related operations.
All this partially due to DKs strive for a more fast paced game/more diversity/more harrasment/more units/more micro abilities... And instead of accepting their complete failure and adminting the incompetence, they shake it off with pathetic excuses like this. "Our main goal for StarCraft 2 is to create the best game of its type and not necessarily selling more copies of the game or increasing the playerbase". Now they are martyrs, lead by a divine providence to make a best gaem, who don't care about popularity or public acceptance. Pathetic.
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On October 25 2016 18:51 insitelol wrote:
While you guys are busy discussing ultra changes, i was wondering if im the only one concerned about the future we are going into?
Just read what they wrote:
"Regarding KR feedback:
We’ve been seeing a lot of discussion from the KR community on two points: making the game easier, and toning down harassment so that the general pace of the game is slower".
So they stated obvious facts koreans and all sane people have been saying for ages aka "stop pretending its Moba, its an RTS", "leave this game alone", "look at the shrinking numbers (viewrship/playerbase)", "blizzard stop please what are doing" etc etc, these type of comments, you know. And as far as i recall DK mentioned this in his previous interview at DH or w/e (not long ago).
But then they try to debate that with the following reasoning (?) and it's the best part:
"Our main goal for StarCraft 2 is to create the best game of its type that it can ever be, and not necessarily selling more copies of the game or increasing the playerbase. Those are also great secondary goals, but we don’t feel that we should be in a place where we start to hurt the main, most important goal of StarCraft 2".
Like, is this considered sane/normal to make posts like this? Are they out of their minds or what?
Because basically what they say is: we don't give a shit about what KR players think and won't even bother with explaing our position because we are right by default. because our main goal is to make the best gaem eva regardless of sales and playerbase.
I'll remind the audience one more time that the following factors accrued since LoTV release:
- Playerbase shrinked by half (compared to 2015);
- Twitch viewership numbers went down signifcantly;
- Kespa terminated SC2 related operations.
All this partially due to DKs strive for a more fast paced game/more diversity/more harrasment/more units/more micro abilities... And instead of accepting their complete failure and adminting the incompetence, they shake it off with pathetic excuses like this. "Our main goal for StarCraft 2 is to create the best game of its type and not necessarily selling more copies of the game or increasing the playerbase". Now they are martyrs, lead by a divine providence to make a best gaem, who don't care about popularity or public acceptance. Pathetic.
I mean what can you do? Sc2 is getting older and it's in a genre that was once mainstream but is now niche. Sure ballance has not been stellar nor game design. But even if it was I don't think sc2 would be in substantially better shape in terms of player base. Sc2 is damn hard it can't have the same casual appeal as mobas or fps. Rts in general just has an inherently higher barrier to entry than these types of games. I think blizzard has tried very hard, harder than any of its costumers should have expected to keep this game going. And I appluad them for that. We as a community might just have to accept that there is only so much they can do to prop up the game. It might just be unable to apeal to a larger audience. I think the problems go deeper than just a few tweeks to gameplay. And frankly I think if blizzard made the changes the kr scene is asking them to make in hopes of increasing the player base they would have to dumb the game down enogh that a lot of hardcore players, those of us who have stuck it out since wol might finally lose interest.
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On October 25 2016 11:53 jinjin5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2016 10:53 JackONeill wrote:
It's good to look at the ultra, but the armor isn't the reason it's broken in any way.
Transfuses and queen snowball throughout the game is the reason.
Zerg late game units can't be too powerfull because of queens. Broodlords can't be buffed because of queens. Ultras can't be too strong because of queens.
The AA range buff made it even more cancerous since you can't shoot with queens at vikings from under BLs.
I fail to see how when terran start to play defensive and turtly with mech it's the end of the world, but zerg having to litterally camp all game long while massing queens to have unkillable ultras it's fine.
Regarding the hydra, i've played the test map quite a lot and it really feels fine against mech. Aggressive mech timings seem to not really work once hydralisks are out
Depends on how the game played out. If the guy went for speedling straight into hydras on 3 bases and you went for an enormous tank/BF hellion push, you're gonna destroy him.
On the other hand, if he went for roaches => hydras, yeah it's gonna be hard not to get kited and eventually die to a concave.
But that's fair i suppose.
Vipers are the real reason why agressive mech gets completely terrible the moment T3 hits.
On October 25 2016 15:49 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2016 10:53 JackONeill wrote:
It's good to look at the ultra, but the armor isn't the reason it's broken in any way.
Transfuses and queen snowball throughout the game is the reason.
Zerg late game units can't be too powerfull because of queens. Broodlords can't be buffed because of queens. Ultras can't be too strong because of queens.
The AA range buff made it even more cancerous since you can't shoot with queens at vikings from under BLs.
I fail to see how when terran start to play defensive and turtly with mech it's the end of the world, but zerg having to litterally camp all game long while massing queens to have unkillable ultras it's fine.
Regarding the hydra, i've played the test map quite a lot and it really feels fine against mech. No, armor is the reason Ultras have been tipped into being nearly broken. They weren't as much of a problem in HotS. On equal upgrades, Marines went from dealing 3 damage to Ultras with Chitinous Plating to now dealing just 1 damage. Marauders went from dealing 17 to 20 damage to now only dealing 10 damage.on equal upgrades against Ultras with Chitinous Plating. That's a severe drop in attack damage against Ultras. Ultras are three times as durable against Marines and nearly twice as durable against Marauders. That's not a subtle change. The proposed balance change is a good step in the right direction between the HotS and LotV values for Ultra armor. Marines will deal 2 damage against them, and Marauders will deal 12 damage. It's mostly the Marauder attack change to two projectiles that's hampering their effectiveness against Ultralisks.
That has very little to do with armor, but a lot to do with marauder having split attacks.
And you're missing the point : it's absolutely fine to have ultras be very good against bio. It's one of LOTV's main perk/achievement. However, the terrible design of queen snowball mass transfuse makes the 8 armor ultra OP. The fact that zerg can/has to camp on 3 bases with 10 queens and rush ultras to perma heal them is the main reason why the matchup is so stupid.
If transfuse was 75 energy, queens could only heal twice in a row, instead of four. It'd make queens supported ultra deathballs much weaker, and would make ultra strategies much weaker on very low eco.
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EPT
