Regardless of the situation, we will still action upon "dead game" comments. As this is a sensitive issue for SC2 fans, please do not come into this thread and talk about SC2 players switching over to BW. This thread is also not about bashing Blizzard, David Kim, or the WCS system.
On October 19 2016 23:51 207aicila wrote: Frankly I could do without those nationalistic pricks in the community thank you very much
I hope you are including those that would watch an SC2 match only when they are sure that a pureblood Korean is playing
Haven't seen any of that. All I care about is game quality, that's why I've been here since the BW days and I know for a fact there's many others who feel the same way.
I've read a ton of that attitude, on TL mostly
I don't think anyone has a problem watching foreigners play that actually are on the same level as koreans like Naniwa, Stephano, Idra back in the day or later Snute. people have a problem watching tournaments which the best players are excluded from.
On October 19 2016 23:51 207aicila wrote: Frankly I could do without those nationalistic pricks in the community thank you very much
I hope you are including those that would watch an SC2 match only when they are sure that a pureblood Korean is playing
Haven't seen any of that. All I care about is game quality, that's why I've been here since the BW days and I know for a fact there's many others who feel the same way.
I've read a ton of that attitude, on TL mostly
I don't think anyone has a problem watching foreigners play that actually are on the same level as koreans like Naniwa, Stephano, Idra back in the day or later Snute. people have a problem watching tournaments which the best players are excluded from.
Why is Idra quoted but never Jinro? Jinro actually had results, Idra had way less and was weak compared to the best European zergs. Plus seeing IdrA and Stephano in the same sentence is kinda insulting for Stephano, NaNi is acceptable even tho he was way behind.
Not surprised. With how "balanced" Terran is, and other races hold no chance, SC2 was bound to die. This combined with the fact that SC2 lacked 'explosive gameplay / units' like Scourge, strong Psi Storms, Reavers.
On October 20 2016 00:22 Vandeam wrote: sc2 dead game WCS system is shit. David Kim should have been fired a long time ago.
While all of this may be true, expressing your opinion here on a public forum is not welcome. Please refrain from posting your own opinions and instead only use TeamLiquid.net/Blizzard approved opinions, whilst also remembering what is acceptable behavior for moderators is not neceesserally acceptable behavior for you. Thanks
I remember, when SC2 was coming out (or before it came out), TL was doing something where if you preordered the game through their link they would get a bonus or something. At this moment I thought, that's unfortunate, the main community site has tied its interest to the profits of Blizzard. And to me, it kind of explains the somewhat aggressive behavior towards some kinds of criticism.
But the vast majority can discuss things in a sensible manner, after all this is TL, not Reddit.
sc2 dead game WCS system is shit. David Kim should have been fired a long time ago.
if that's sensible manner for you I'm not sure what you'd call unsensible
That's the irony of it all, banning people from addressing these issue just makes them troll more, I wonder how many people have been warned or received bans in this thread.
"Fire David Kim" and variations thereof is in no way "addressing the issue". It's entitled childish bullshit. Scapegoating a public face of the project doesn't help anything and just reduces the actual issue to tabloid level debate. I agree that TL is somehow overly sensitive about Blizzard criticism, but anyone shouting negative things about DK (or previously Dustin Browder) is just begging to not be taken seriously.
what if it is simply true though... (that the problem comes from these), I know I think so... for sure, stuff like terrible terrible damage, can't you see what it means and how that's exactly the problem? people just don't love the game itself that much because of this stuff, I read it all the time (and thats why I don't play it too, believe me I would if I thought it was great)
Part of the issue is the fact that many supporters of this game don't play it at all.
In what way is this an issue with regards this topic?
The issue is that in KR viewership has fallen and therefore sponsors aren't interested and therefore Proleague is financially not viable. Their are underlying factors as to why viewers aren't watching as much anymore but that is the debate which is being stifled, and some are just disregarding that request and are shit-posting stuff like 'fire David Kim'. Which in turn leads to bans and further reduction in the community. We are all here because we like Starcraft, let's not forget that.
It's an issue that regards this topic because we can expect that many koreans lose interest in SC2 for these same very reasons, first you stop playing, then you stop watching, etc.
While all of this may be true, expressing your opinion here on a public forum is not welcome. Please refrain from posting your own opinions and instead only use TeamLiquid.net/Blizzard approved opinions, whilst also remembering what is acceptable behavior for moderators is not neceesserally acceptable behavior for you. Thanks
I remember, when SC2 was coming out (or before it came out), TL was doing something where if you preordered the game through their link they would get a bonus or something. At this moment I thought, that's unfortunate, the main community site has tied its interest to the profits of Blizzard. And to me, it kind of explains the somewhat aggressive behavior towards some kinds of criticism.
But the vast majority can discuss things in a sensible manner, after all this is TL, not Reddit.
sc2 dead game WCS system is shit. David Kim should have been fired a long time ago.
if that's sensible manner for you I'm not sure what you'd call unsensible
That's the irony of it all, banning people from addressing these issue just makes them troll more, I wonder how many people have been warned or received bans in this thread.
"Fire David Kim" and variations thereof is in no way "addressing the issue". It's entitled childish bullshit. Scapegoating a public face of the project doesn't help anything and just reduces the actual issue to tabloid level debate. I agree that TL is somehow overly sensitive about Blizzard criticism, but anyone shouting negative things about DK (or previously Dustin Browder) is just begging to not be taken seriously.
what if it is simply true though... (that the problem comes from these), I know I think so... for sure, stuff like terrible terrible damage, can't you see what it means and how that's exactly the problem? people just don't love the game itself that much because of this stuff, I read it all the time (and thats why I don't play it too, believe me I would if I thought it was great)
Part of the issue is the fact that many supporters of this game don't play it at all.
In what way is this an issue with regards this topic?
The issue is that in KR viewership has fallen and therefore sponsors aren't interested and therefore Proleague is financially not viable. Their are underlying factors as to why viewers aren't watching as much anymore but that is the debate which is being stifled, and some are just disregarding that request and are shit-posting stuff like 'fire David Kim'. Which in turn leads to bans and further reduction in the community. We are all here because we like Starcraft, let's not forget that.
It's an issue that regards this topic because we can expect that many koreans lose interest in SC2 for these same very reasons, first you stop playing, then you stop watching, etc.
I must say I don't really agree, many sports are spectator sports. Even by your logic something like the league of legends worlds finals would have massive viewer numbers at the moment with over 100m active players, yet the live streams get a mere fraction of those viewer numbers.
The quality of the games and how fun they are to watch is what drives viewer number in my opinion and if for some reasons the game becomes less enjoyable to watch then viewers go elsewhere.
On October 20 2016 02:37 parkufarku wrote: Not surprised. With how "balanced" Terran is, and other races hold no chance, SC2 was bound to die. This combined with the fact that SC2 lacked 'explosive gameplay / units' like Scourge, strong Psi Storms, Reavers.
User was temp banned for this post.
this post is why it's stupid to blame DK for this. One guy says sc2 has to much explosive gameplay the other one says it has to little. he can't make everyone happy.
On October 20 2016 00:41 ProMeTheus112 wrote: [quote] I remember, when SC2 was coming out (or before it came out), TL was doing something where if you preordered the game through their link they would get a bonus or something. At this moment I thought, that's unfortunate, the main community site has tied its interest to the profits of Blizzard. And to me, it kind of explains the somewhat aggressive behavior towards some kinds of criticism.
But the vast majority can discuss things in a sensible manner, after all this is TL, not Reddit.
sc2 dead game WCS system is shit. David Kim should have been fired a long time ago.
if that's sensible manner for you I'm not sure what you'd call unsensible
That's the irony of it all, banning people from addressing these issue just makes them troll more, I wonder how many people have been warned or received bans in this thread.
"Fire David Kim" and variations thereof is in no way "addressing the issue". It's entitled childish bullshit. Scapegoating a public face of the project doesn't help anything and just reduces the actual issue to tabloid level debate. I agree that TL is somehow overly sensitive about Blizzard criticism, but anyone shouting negative things about DK (or previously Dustin Browder) is just begging to not be taken seriously.
what if it is simply true though... (that the problem comes from these), I know I think so... for sure, stuff like terrible terrible damage, can't you see what it means and how that's exactly the problem? people just don't love the game itself that much because of this stuff, I read it all the time (and thats why I don't play it too, believe me I would if I thought it was great)
Part of the issue is the fact that many supporters of this game don't play it at all.
In what way is this an issue with regards this topic?
The issue is that in KR viewership has fallen and therefore sponsors aren't interested and therefore Proleague is financially not viable. Their are underlying factors as to why viewers aren't watching as much anymore but that is the debate which is being stifled, and some are just disregarding that request and are shit-posting stuff like 'fire David Kim'. Which in turn leads to bans and further reduction in the community. We are all here because we like Starcraft, let's not forget that.
It's an issue that regards this topic because we can expect that many koreans lose interest in SC2 for these same very reasons, first you stop playing, then you stop watching, etc.
I must say I don't really agree, many sports are spectator sports. Even by your logic something like the league of legends worlds finals would have massive viewer numbers at the moment with over 100m active players, yet the live streams get a mere fraction of those viewer numbers.
The quality of the games and how fun they are to watch is what drives viewer number in my opinion and if for some reasons the game becomes less enjoyable to watch then viewers go elsewhere.
well it does make the game less enjoyable to watch as well doesn't it? the design decisions, volatility, tankivacs, deathballs and adepts etc I actually watch some these days cause there are some rly cool french casters @Ogaming, there are some stuff happening so its not uninteresting but the games aren't that great, the casters are better than the games I would say.
But the vast majority can discuss things in a sensible manner, after all this is TL, not Reddit.
sc2 dead game WCS system is shit. David Kim should have been fired a long time ago.
if that's sensible manner for you I'm not sure what you'd call unsensible
That's the irony of it all, banning people from addressing these issue just makes them troll more, I wonder how many people have been warned or received bans in this thread.
"Fire David Kim" and variations thereof is in no way "addressing the issue". It's entitled childish bullshit. Scapegoating a public face of the project doesn't help anything and just reduces the actual issue to tabloid level debate. I agree that TL is somehow overly sensitive about Blizzard criticism, but anyone shouting negative things about DK (or previously Dustin Browder) is just begging to not be taken seriously.
what if it is simply true though... (that the problem comes from these), I know I think so... for sure, stuff like terrible terrible damage, can't you see what it means and how that's exactly the problem? people just don't love the game itself that much because of this stuff, I read it all the time (and thats why I don't play it too, believe me I would if I thought it was great)
Part of the issue is the fact that many supporters of this game don't play it at all.
In what way is this an issue with regards this topic?
The issue is that in KR viewership has fallen and therefore sponsors aren't interested and therefore Proleague is financially not viable. Their are underlying factors as to why viewers aren't watching as much anymore but that is the debate which is being stifled, and some are just disregarding that request and are shit-posting stuff like 'fire David Kim'. Which in turn leads to bans and further reduction in the community. We are all here because we like Starcraft, let's not forget that.
It's an issue that regards this topic because we can expect that many koreans lose interest in SC2 for these same very reasons, first you stop playing, then you stop watching, etc.
I must say I don't really agree, many sports are spectator sports. Even by your logic something like the league of legends worlds finals would have massive viewer numbers at the moment with over 100m active players, yet the live streams get a mere fraction of those viewer numbers.
The quality of the games and how fun they are to watch is what drives viewer number in my opinion and if for some reasons the game becomes less enjoyable to watch then viewers go elsewhere.
well it does make the game less enjoyable to watch as well doesn't it? the design decisions, volatility, tankivacs, deathballs and adepts etc I actually watch some these days cause there are some rly cool french casters @Ogaming, there are some stuff happening so its not uninteresting but the games aren't that great, the casters are better than the games I would say.
On October 20 2016 01:31 Charoisaur wrote: [quote]
[quote] if that's sensible manner for you I'm not sure what you'd call unsensible
That's the irony of it all, banning people from addressing these issue just makes them troll more, I wonder how many people have been warned or received bans in this thread.
"Fire David Kim" and variations thereof is in no way "addressing the issue". It's entitled childish bullshit. Scapegoating a public face of the project doesn't help anything and just reduces the actual issue to tabloid level debate. I agree that TL is somehow overly sensitive about Blizzard criticism, but anyone shouting negative things about DK (or previously Dustin Browder) is just begging to not be taken seriously.
what if it is simply true though... (that the problem comes from these), I know I think so... for sure, stuff like terrible terrible damage, can't you see what it means and how that's exactly the problem? people just don't love the game itself that much because of this stuff, I read it all the time (and thats why I don't play it too, believe me I would if I thought it was great)
Part of the issue is the fact that many supporters of this game don't play it at all.
In what way is this an issue with regards this topic?
The issue is that in KR viewership has fallen and therefore sponsors aren't interested and therefore Proleague is financially not viable. Their are underlying factors as to why viewers aren't watching as much anymore but that is the debate which is being stifled, and some are just disregarding that request and are shit-posting stuff like 'fire David Kim'. Which in turn leads to bans and further reduction in the community. We are all here because we like Starcraft, let's not forget that.
It's an issue that regards this topic because we can expect that many koreans lose interest in SC2 for these same very reasons, first you stop playing, then you stop watching, etc.
I must say I don't really agree, many sports are spectator sports. Even by your logic something like the league of legends worlds finals would have massive viewer numbers at the moment with over 100m active players, yet the live streams get a mere fraction of those viewer numbers.
The quality of the games and how fun they are to watch is what drives viewer number in my opinion and if for some reasons the game becomes less enjoyable to watch then viewers go elsewhere.
well it does make the game less enjoyable to watch as well doesn't it? the design decisions, volatility, tankivacs, deathballs and adepts etc I actually watch some these days cause there are some rly cool french casters @Ogaming, there are some stuff happening so its not uninteresting but the games aren't that great, the casters are better than the games I would say.
On October 19 2016 23:51 207aicila wrote: Frankly I could do without those nationalistic pricks in the community thank you very much
I hope you are including those that would watch an SC2 match only when they are sure that a pureblood Korean is playing
Haven't seen any of that. All I care about is game quality, that's why I've been here since the BW days and I know for a fact there's many others who feel the same way.
I've read a ton of that attitude, on TL mostly
I don't think anyone has a problem watching foreigners play that actually are on the same level as koreans like Naniwa, Stephano, Idra back in the day or later Snute. people have a problem watching tournaments which the best players are excluded from.
People want the best of the best, I can get that. But there's two problems. First; how can you guarantee that what you get is the best? There have been a lot of SC2 games where the Koreans vs Koreans played horribly. I can think of a lot of recent examples like Patience vs TY or Zest vs Taeja where the level of play by at least one side was lacklustre. I hardly think this is the best of the best. Or what about the Code A games? Many of those are far below the best because they are often Code A players facing Code S players. That's not the best of the best. Then we get into where foreigners come in. A number of lower Code S players are regularly beaten on Olimoleagues and other online tournaments by foreigners. If you say Code Anplay is the best of the best, then you'd have to watch a lot of the later stages of all foreign tournaments.
The best of the foreigners, like Neeb, Scarlett, Showtime, Nerchio, Snute have all faced both each other and other Koreans in foreign tournaments. If you say "I only want to watch the best of the best" and watch Code A, then you pretty much have to watch ro8 and on of all foreign tournaments.
Second, the only way to see the best of the best is for there to be sponsors to hold tournaments. Regardless of people's motivations for watching, you need the fan and viewerbase in order for tournaments to be profitable. Like it or not, tournaments where Koreans stomp everyone are not profitable or at least they have not in the past. That's why we've seen tournaments decrease and viewership decrease (at least in part).
That's the irony of it all, banning people from addressing these issue just makes them troll more, I wonder how many people have been warned or received bans in this thread.
"Fire David Kim" and variations thereof is in no way "addressing the issue". It's entitled childish bullshit. Scapegoating a public face of the project doesn't help anything and just reduces the actual issue to tabloid level debate. I agree that TL is somehow overly sensitive about Blizzard criticism, but anyone shouting negative things about DK (or previously Dustin Browder) is just begging to not be taken seriously.
what if it is simply true though... (that the problem comes from these), I know I think so... for sure, stuff like terrible terrible damage, can't you see what it means and how that's exactly the problem? people just don't love the game itself that much because of this stuff, I read it all the time (and thats why I don't play it too, believe me I would if I thought it was great)
Part of the issue is the fact that many supporters of this game don't play it at all.
In what way is this an issue with regards this topic?
The issue is that in KR viewership has fallen and therefore sponsors aren't interested and therefore Proleague is financially not viable. Their are underlying factors as to why viewers aren't watching as much anymore but that is the debate which is being stifled, and some are just disregarding that request and are shit-posting stuff like 'fire David Kim'. Which in turn leads to bans and further reduction in the community. We are all here because we like Starcraft, let's not forget that.
It's an issue that regards this topic because we can expect that many koreans lose interest in SC2 for these same very reasons, first you stop playing, then you stop watching, etc.
I must say I don't really agree, many sports are spectator sports. Even by your logic something like the league of legends worlds finals would have massive viewer numbers at the moment with over 100m active players, yet the live streams get a mere fraction of those viewer numbers.
The quality of the games and how fun they are to watch is what drives viewer number in my opinion and if for some reasons the game becomes less enjoyable to watch then viewers go elsewhere.
well it does make the game less enjoyable to watch as well doesn't it? the design decisions, volatility, tankivacs, deathballs and adepts etc I actually watch some these days cause there are some rly cool french casters @Ogaming, there are some stuff happening so its not uninteresting but the games aren't that great, the casters are better than the games I would say.
thanks a lot for the compliments.
Even though my French is extremely limited these days I too have watched the O'gaming stream a few times, when waiting for English ones to start normally, the production value is great, personalities seem cool toio, and guess what, even the chat was nice!! Not even joking, French twitch chat was nice to me, fair play to them.
Watching YoGo trying to snipe Avilo was also funny at times.
I wish their was an English speaking community like O'Gaming, that covered Sc2 and other games too.
On October 19 2016 23:51 207aicila wrote: Frankly I could do without those nationalistic pricks in the community thank you very much
I hope you are including those that would watch an SC2 match only when they are sure that a pureblood Korean is playing
Haven't seen any of that. All I care about is game quality, that's why I've been here since the BW days and I know for a fact there's many others who feel the same way.
I've read a ton of that attitude, on TL mostly
I don't think anyone has a problem watching foreigners play that actually are on the same level as koreans like Naniwa, Stephano, Idra back in the day or later Snute. people have a problem watching tournaments which the best players are excluded from.
People want the best of the best, I can get that. But there's two problems. First; how can you guarantee that what you get is the best? There have been a lot of SC2 games where the Koreans vs Koreans played horribly. I can think of a lot of recent examples like Patience vs TY or Zest vs Taeja where the level of play by at least one side was lacklustre. I hardly think this is the best of the best. Or what about the Code A games? Many of those are far below the best because they are often Code A players facing Code S players. That's not the best of the best. Then we get into where foreigners come in. A number of lower Code S players are regularly beaten on Olimoleagues and other online tournaments by foreigners. If you say Code Anplay is the best of the best, then you'd have to watch a lot of the later stages of all foreign tournaments.
The best of the foreigners, like Neeb, Scarlett, Showtime, Nerchio, Snute have all faced both each other and other Koreans in foreign tournaments. If you say "I only want to watch the best of the best" and watch Code A, then you pretty much have to watch ro8 and on of all foreign tournaments.
Second, the only way to see the best of the best is for there to be sponsors to hold tournaments. Regardless of people's motivations for watching, you need the fan and viewerbase in order for tournaments to be profitable. Like it or not, tournaments where Koreans stomp everyone are not profitable or at least they have not in the past. That's why we've seen tournaments decrease and viewership decrease (at least in part).
i know that top foreigners are very good and lower tier koreans aren't that good but watching a tournament where a certain group of players are excluded from just for the sake of lowering the competition and having artifically created foreign player hype just isn't interesting to me. in Code A there's no artifically created hype.
how can you guarantee that what you get is the best?
that's easy. open tournaments would guarantee that the best players on that day would advance to the later stages of the tournament.
I have a lot of thoughts about this, but mostly I'm just sad. I wish the players all the best in their future endeavors as I imagine most of them will be retiring. To the few that stick around I hope they find a good support system to give us a little more great sc2. Thanks for the memories Proleague.
Proleague died for me when Stars disbanded, but this is really sad news. Only way Korean SC2 survives [1] is if they do something quite drastic with the individual leagues prize money - sure it's a lot, lot better than it used to be even twelve months ago where even making the quarter finals made you not much, but if cutting the finalists money back to $20k/$10k, then distributing the $20k saved into a smaller tournament series which can distribute prizes to more people and prevent mass retirements, then it needs to be done. There's zero point having an eyecatching lotsofmillionsofwon first prize if there's nobody there to watch it because the match quality drops through the floor.
[1] - edit - barring blizzard having some weird joker up their sleeves that they'll announce at blizzcon, but that seems unlikely
Bad day for Starcraft fans. I have expended so many hours watching these korean kids playing, first with BW and now with sc2. I will continue watching/playing Starcraft2 for sure, I have fun with the game, but sometimes I think "maybe Blizzard in Warcraft 4...". I want to see how Blizzard adapts an hipotetical RTS Warcraft4 to the new generations of gamers.
EPT
