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Canada8991 Posts
On September 04 2016 08:40 207aicila wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2016 05:25 TheWinks wrote:On September 04 2016 05:20 swissman777 wrote:On September 04 2016 05:16 lastride wrote:On September 04 2016 05:13 207aicila wrote:
ProLeague returning to Brood War would be phenomenal. Just the thought of it is making me more excited than it should. Man I love bw like everybody else but the players are too old now. It will be a shadow of the past. But Still better than sc2 proleague  I wonder if more people will watch BW now or we should just stick to what we have Internationally, no, more people will not watch BW. Given the success and growth of Twitch and YouTube as platforms, as long as they don't fuck things up with poor quality or bad casters (think GomTV in 2011) then you bet your bloody arse BW will have a stronger international audience than ever before. Simply as a result of more people being into the eSports and gaming livestreaming scene. It's that simple. And you can bet a lot of us old schoolers will be watching again as well.
Dunno, not that many people care about BW now compare to 1996, just watch Quake, pretty much in the same situation, old popular game with a strong esport history (not as strong as BW but still) but the number for Quakecon are still very low with today streaming capacity. Meele is the only old game that has perfom well, for now it is realy the exception not the norm.
I don't see why someone that don't watch sc2 is gonna watch a game that for a good part if them came out before they were born or when they were still young children and on top of that a game that they can't buy or make work that easy. Some will probably do it at first mostly coming from sc2 but I can't see it having number anywhere close to sc2 outside of Korea in the long run. At some point you need people actually playing the game for it to be popular and sc2 still dominate that category.
Could be wrong of course, I hope for all of you bw fans.
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On September 04 2016 10:10 Jaaaaasper wrote:
What this thread seems to forget is that proleague and kespa care about their bottom line, if they think that catering to the bigger bw fanbase in korea is better money thats what they'll do, if they think the foreign sc2 scene will produce more money they'll go with that. They may go with broodwar and overwatch, and then go to HDBW and OW or maybe do that but with SC2 instead of HDBW. If competitive farmville makes them the most money, that's what they'll go with. They care far less about scenes and far more about how those scenes make them money.
I don't think KeSPA cares about *making* money, they're funded with tax money. Now, obviously they still care about money to some extent because big things like the Proleague need to be sponsored to work but just saying they're not at all looking looking for what they could make money off of.
On September 04 2016 09:42 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2016 09:34 KeksX wrote:On September 04 2016 09:30 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 04 2016 09:26 KeksX wrote:On September 04 2016 09:25 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On September 04 2016 09:24 KeksX wrote:
The one thing people seem to ignore is the fact that while BW in Korea is bigger than SC2, it isn't particularly big.
Spoiler alert: Overwatch is big. They'll switch to that before going back to BW. iirc BW is still in the top 5 or top 10 most played games at PC Bangs. It's still pretty big. It is possible for them to run both Starcraft and Overwatch, they don't have to totally switch I adjusted the post a bit. Yeah BW might be in the top 5, but the difference between #2 and #3 is massive. Korea, again, is incredibly top heavy. If any switch will happen, it will be to the bigger game for sure. Being bigger in pc bangs doesn't neccesarily mean it will be a big esports scene though, no? Overwatch is (imo) incredibly boring to watch for multiple reasons, just because a lot of people like playing it doesn't mean it will succeed as a viewing experience. Then again, are pc bang stats still that important? Pc bang stats inherently seem to favor team games over 1vs1 games, which you might just play at home. What about fish numbers? etc As i said before, i don't really buy the bw proleague part right now, but ASL recently got two sponsors so i guess there is increased interest? This is all mostly speculation ofc I think Korea has different standards regarding this. In the end, you have bad mario kart clones being televised. But you might be right, the PC bang culture might change or get smaller. But if the korean ads at spotv are any indication, it's really just about most played games. I am not necessarily talking about the quality of a game, i think overwatch is pretty mediocre but that is not the point. It's more about how easy the game is to follow as an esports. If you watch the match is it easy to understand what is happening, is it easy to get the narrative of the match? How easy it is to see the skill of the players. I think OW fails at most of these things pretty badly atm, especially if we compare it to other successful esports. I mean i absolutely think that there will be an OW tournament in the near future (probably on OGN) simply because it is big in pc bangs and general interest is there. But if people actually like to watch it? That has to be seen i think.
Based on how esports has progressed at this point I'm pretty convinced that people will watch anything that they're playing at the time... Overwatch is anyway less of a chore to watch for me than a Dota clone and I've not even played the game myself.
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Just putting it out there that while BW is popular in PC Bangs, most people playing BW are playing Fastest Map or other UMS maps. Not competitive Melee.
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On September 04 2016 10:31 nighcol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2016 10:10 Jaaaaasper wrote:
What this thread seems to forget is that proleague and kespa care about their bottom line, if they think that catering to the bigger bw fanbase in korea is better money thats what they'll do, if they think the foreign sc2 scene will produce more money they'll go with that. They may go with broodwar and overwatch, and then go to HDBW and OW or maybe do that but with SC2 instead of HDBW. If competitive farmville makes them the most money, that's what they'll go with. They care far less about scenes and far more about how those scenes make them money. I don't think KeSPA cares about *making* money, they're funded with tax money. Now, obviously they still care about money to some extent because big things like the Proleague need to be sponsored to work but just saying they're not at all looking looking for what they could make money off of. Show nested quote +On September 04 2016 09:42 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 04 2016 09:34 KeksX wrote:On September 04 2016 09:30 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 04 2016 09:26 KeksX wrote:On September 04 2016 09:25 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On September 04 2016 09:24 KeksX wrote:
The one thing people seem to ignore is the fact that while BW in Korea is bigger than SC2, it isn't particularly big.
Spoiler alert: Overwatch is big. They'll switch to that before going back to BW. iirc BW is still in the top 5 or top 10 most played games at PC Bangs. It's still pretty big. It is possible for them to run both Starcraft and Overwatch, they don't have to totally switch I adjusted the post a bit. Yeah BW might be in the top 5, but the difference between #2 and #3 is massive. Korea, again, is incredibly top heavy. If any switch will happen, it will be to the bigger game for sure. Being bigger in pc bangs doesn't neccesarily mean it will be a big esports scene though, no? Overwatch is (imo) incredibly boring to watch for multiple reasons, just because a lot of people like playing it doesn't mean it will succeed as a viewing experience. Then again, are pc bang stats still that important? Pc bang stats inherently seem to favor team games over 1vs1 games, which you might just play at home. What about fish numbers? etc As i said before, i don't really buy the bw proleague part right now, but ASL recently got two sponsors so i guess there is increased interest? This is all mostly speculation ofc I think Korea has different standards regarding this. In the end, you have bad mario kart clones being televised. But you might be right, the PC bang culture might change or get smaller. But if the korean ads at spotv are any indication, it's really just about most played games. I am not necessarily talking about the quality of a game, i think overwatch is pretty mediocre but that is not the point. It's more about how easy the game is to follow as an esports. If you watch the match is it easy to understand what is happening, is it easy to get the narrative of the match? How easy it is to see the skill of the players. I think OW fails at most of these things pretty badly atm, especially if we compare it to other successful esports. I mean i absolutely think that there will be an OW tournament in the near future (probably on OGN) simply because it is big in pc bangs and general interest is there. But if people actually like to watch it? That has to be seen i think. Based on how esports has progressed at this point I'm pretty convinced that people will watch anything that they're playing at the time... Overwatch is anyway less of a chore to watch for me than a Dota clone and I've not even played the game myself.
Exactly, I know it sounds a little douchy but the reality is that eSports isn't 100% decided by quality (regardless of playing or watching).. It's mostly based on a game's popularity regardless of how that is achieved. This is especially true in Korea where they have tournaments for pretty much everything popular.
Companies use "eSports" to advertise their game all the time and it has benefitted almost all related companies to jump on that train.
So if OW nears 40% market share, kespa would be stupid to not pick it up. Even if that means that it won't be the same experience BW offers.
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I've been expecting this since February. There's no money left and Koreans are more interested in watching the old boys play BW. With fresh blood coming in Fish Server I predict another Brood War era.
I wish the SC2 community best of luck. I hope it finds its place somewhere in the foreign scene.
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Bisutopia19396 Posts
Everyone knows I'm very active in the BW scene, but I've watched almost every korean GSL finals and all of the PL finals. I'd be extremely sad to see them go at the cost of BW reviving. For all pure SC2 fans, this is the somber feeling most BW fans felt half a decade ago. If you truly love your game and stand by it, then it will never go away. BW is proof of that.
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On September 04 2016 11:09 WinterViewbot420 wrote:
I've been expecting this since February. There's no money left and Koreans are more interested in watching the old boys play BW. With fresh blood coming in Fish Server I predict another Brood War era.
I wish the SC2 community best of luck. I hope it finds its place somewhere in the foreign scene.
So what are the fish stats? Playerbase etc? Do you know?
On September 04 2016 11:15 BisuDagger wrote:
Everyone knows I'm very active in the BW scene, but I've watched almost every korean GSL finals and all of the PL finals. I'd be extremely sad to see them go at the cost of BW reviving. For all pure SC2 fans, this is the somber feeling most BW fans felt half a decade ago. If you truly love your game and stand by it, then it will never go away. BW is proof of that.
I will be quite honest, if the ecosystem in korea doesn't allow for sc2 to be played then that's simply the case and people have to accept that.
Personally i would love bw and sc2 to be a thing, with team league and individual league but as i said before i doubt that's really doable because both games are rts games fighting for a very similar audience.
At the same time i still don't see if bw really can make a comeback, BW HD will be the decider here i feel like.
As i said before there surely are people who know more already, pm me haha
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On September 04 2016 07:33 swissman777 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2016 07:17 Lordanubis wrote:
It's strange to see people saying they can't imagine SC2 without ProLeague, and that it'll be lesser without it, when the strongest SC2 ever was (both in popularity and viewership) was when ProLeague wasn't around - all we had was GSL and, occasionally, GSTL.
It'll be sad if PL doesn't come back, sure, but SC2 is hardly doing well at the moment anyway. The way things are is not popular, and it's not a sustainable situation.
I wonder sometimes, if KESPA had never come over to SC2 and Blizzard hadn't started meddling as much, would we still be in the situation we're in now? I'm not so sure. I guess it's always easier to look back with rose tinted glasses, but the competitive scene now bears very little resemblance to the scene when SC2 was truly hot.
Like it or not though (honestly, I don't really find it enjoyable to watch) ProLeague now pretty much props up the Korean SC2 scene and without it things will likely collapse rapidly. But then, with things as they are, can SC2 really be saved regardless? Irreparable damage has already been done... I don't think it's irreparable. Sc2 is still pretty big and well established. If anything, as long as we keep the passion there will be a day when RTS or similar genres become popular again like it was in Smash bros I believe. We just have to love the game for our own reasons and hope for best
SC2 can't be fixed by the design team that broke it.
Can we get some game designers who understand game design?
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On September 04 2016 09:15 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2016 08:40 207aicila wrote:On September 04 2016 05:25 TheWinks wrote:On September 04 2016 05:20 swissman777 wrote:On September 04 2016 05:16 lastride wrote:On September 04 2016 05:13 207aicila wrote:
ProLeague returning to Brood War would be phenomenal. Just the thought of it is making me more excited than it should. Man I love bw like everybody else but the players are too old now. It will be a shadow of the past. But Still better than sc2 proleague I wonder if more people will watch BW now or we should just stick to what we have Internationally, no, more people will not watch BW. Given the success and growth of Twitch and YouTube as platforms, as long as they don't fuck things up with poor quality or bad casters (think GomTV in 2011) then you bet your bloody arse BW will have a stronger international audience than ever before. Simply as a result of more people being into the eSports and gaming livestreaming scene. It's that simple. And you can bet a lot of us old schoolers will be watching again as well. BW itself will be bigger but PL won't and deffinitively not as big as SC2, BW was nowhere near as big as SC2 world wide, BW is bigger in korea yes but in the rest of the world no, SC2 its actually much bigger than BW was because of that, except WCG there weren't any tournaments outside korea, theres no way you would have things like DH and IEM in china, poland,etc and things like HSC, Iron squid, etc with BW it just wasn't that popular outside of korea.
We can't compare raw numbers.
But we can compare %s.
The % of BW players in terms of PC gamers is MUCH higher than SC2 can ever dream off in the western world, like everybody in my school either players BW or CS on school computers. Our school computers had BW and CS pre-installed.
And we have to compare TOTAL raw numbers, the TOTAL amount of people that have played SC1 is SOOO much more than SC2 players, SC2 just can't compare.
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sayonara, sc2. really sad. blizz con will be my last watching experience. not gonna watch foreigners playing bad.
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On September 04 2016 11:15 BisuDagger wrote:
Everyone knows I'm very active in the BW scene, but I've watched almost every korean GSL finals and all of the PL finals. I'd be extremely sad to see them go at the cost of BW reviving. For all pure SC2 fans, this is the somber feeling most BW fans felt half a decade ago. If you truly love your game and stand by it, then it will never go away. BW is proof of that.
Amen to this!
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On September 04 2016 11:42 RealityIsKing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2016 09:15 Lexender wrote:On September 04 2016 08:40 207aicila wrote:On September 04 2016 05:25 TheWinks wrote:On September 04 2016 05:20 swissman777 wrote:On September 04 2016 05:16 lastride wrote:On September 04 2016 05:13 207aicila wrote:
ProLeague returning to Brood War would be phenomenal. Just the thought of it is making me more excited than it should. Man I love bw like everybody else but the players are too old now. It will be a shadow of the past. But Still better than sc2 proleague I wonder if more people will watch BW now or we should just stick to what we have Internationally, no, more people will not watch BW. Given the success and growth of Twitch and YouTube as platforms, as long as they don't fuck things up with poor quality or bad casters (think GomTV in 2011) then you bet your bloody arse BW will have a stronger international audience than ever before. Simply as a result of more people being into the eSports and gaming livestreaming scene. It's that simple. And you can bet a lot of us old schoolers will be watching again as well. BW itself will be bigger but PL won't and deffinitively not as big as SC2, BW was nowhere near as big as SC2 world wide, BW is bigger in korea yes but in the rest of the world no, SC2 its actually much bigger than BW was because of that, except WCG there weren't any tournaments outside korea, theres no way you would have things like DH and IEM in china, poland,etc and things like HSC, Iron squid, etc with BW it just wasn't that popular outside of korea. We can't compare raw numbers. But we can compare %s. The % of BW players in terms of PC gamers is MUCH higher than SC2 can ever dream off in the western world, like everybody in my school either players BW or CS on school computers. Our school computers had BW and CS pre-installed. And we have to compare TOTAL raw numbers, the TOTAL amount of people that have played SC1 is SOOO much more than SC2 players, SC2 just can't compare.
In Korea that might be true, but it's not outside of Korea. Sc2 was more popular outside of Korea then BW ever was. I read (no stats to prove this, just seen a few people state this) that SC2 is doing even better then WC3 in China right now (again this could be wrong and the people saying this making it up idk).
Both games are good and I do want a BW comeback in Korea, but I also hope SC2 can be right beside it.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51702 Posts
is it because you'd like to see jaedong play BW again?
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Oh BLinD... Yeah I would like to see him play BW again  .
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The problem for SC2 is that even with that all world wide foreign market, is small, the sponsors are there when you have an audience, but SC2 is really shrinking, in Korea has never been alive, but in the foreign department right now is only Blizzard who is interested in pull big tournaments, one exception: that Alibaba thing. The foreign players must be very grateful for all that money that Blizz is throwing to them with the region lock.
P.S: Jaedong was the "zerg" in BW, watching him playing was a wow thing.
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lol at foreign views being larger. 5000 foreign view for bw and like 20k for sc2? Well guess what MAX 300k viewers for bw in korea.
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A fragmented player base is not a good thing. If SC2 dies off in Korea completely then the game itself will take a massive hit in popularity over the subsequent years. Sponsors will dwindle and the player base will shrink further to the point of being completely unviable as an esport
I watch SC2 as a competitive sport. When the best of the best leave so will i and many other viewers
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BW will never be popular outside of Korea.
I loved playing BW 15 years ago but now the graphics are so ugly the game is unwatchable.
Nothing ages worse then computer games, unfortunately.
Maybe if they switch to BroodWar HD but I doubt that will happen in Korea.
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On September 04 2016 14:35 Shinokuki wrote:
lol at foreign views being larger. 5000 foreign view for bw and like 20k for sc2? Well guess what MAX 300k viewers for bw in korea.
If BW could get the viewers as you said, BW proleague and OSL would already revived without any support. 300K? Jesus even Baseball has 70-100K internet views per game. (excluding TV ratings) Considering there are 5 games per day, it's 350~400K overall.
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On September 04 2016 15:51 Thouhastmail wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2016 14:35 Shinokuki wrote:
lol at foreign views being larger. 5000 foreign view for bw and like 20k for sc2? Well guess what MAX 300k viewers for bw in korea. If BW could get the viewers as you said, BW proleague and OSL would already revived without any support. 300K? Jesus even Baseball has 70-100K internet views per game. (excluding TV ratings) Considering there are 5 games per day, it's 350~400K overall.
Not with Blizzard killing it personally in 2012. How do you expect OSL and PL when all those were taken for SC2 and then OSL just stopped after two seasons. Also, lets not forget that the super stars (Stork / FanTasy / Flash / Bisu / Jaedong.. etc) all were taken for SC2 (Those who bring most viewers). There is no BW scene left to grow new super stars after that disaster.
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EPT
